Skip to main content

Did you know that when federal programs were cut by the GoP House those cuts resulted in each state receiving far less in federal dollars, and that each state then cut the amount municipalities received, which meant less money to school districts and boroughs, which meant many local taxes had to increase?

The reality of this is, the tax burden is then shifted to the middle and working class as these taxes are not proportionate to income. (This is the math portion of the conversation)

This is the same mathematical issue that arises when Social Security and Medicare are cut, since the tax is only on the first $113,100, up from $110,500 last year, and the main beneficiaries of the benefits are the middle and working class, any change in either benefit or benefit age greatly impacts the middle and working class. Not the wealthy. Why? Well these taxes are not income proportionate either.

In essence, the entire conservative budget and policy is at this point to continue to cut funds to education and infrastructure (i.e. roads, police, safety and other funds that usually go to each state) and to cut benefits while increasing the age and requirements to receive benefits like social security and medicare. Basically using an income disproportionate methodology to ensure they can say it is about entitlements, ignoring that this method ensure the tax burden falls disproportionately on the middle and working class.

This is the truth about trickle-down theory, it is all about income redistribution from the working poor and middle class to the rich. So let's sum it shall we?

The GoP wants to continue to cut education funds at the federal level, which means each state has less funds for public elementary, high school and college, which means local school and property taxes go up, which is an inherent tax on the middle class and working poor. Remember, these taxes are not income proportionate as Federal and State Income taxes are.

This also means the cost of college increases, which is another burden on the middle and working class, especially since the GoP also wants to cut more funds from Pell Grants and student loan programs.

Why is this unfair? Well, the wealthy don’t use our public schools for the most part. Nor do their children need Pell grants and students loans. Honestly, Romney was clear during the campaign, if kids can’t afford college, they need to pick a cheaper school, or just borrow the money from their parents.

So mathematically, if your property tax increases by 10% on $5,000, that is a $500 increase. Not much if you make $500,000, but quite a bit for the average family who might make $50,000. Let’s add in tuition, instead of $10,000, let’s say tuition increases to $15,000. Again, not much of a problem for our wealthy executive making $500,000 per year, but impossible for the worker at $50,000. Are you beginning to see the problem?

Right. Moving on.

When the GoP talks about raising the retirement age and cutting benefits, once again, that taxes the middle class and working poor. Once again, using candidate Romney as our base line, he is already retired, even though he made over $14,000,000 according to his 2011 tax return (or $21,000,000 according to the 2011 draft tax return), but he is retired. So raising the retirement age does not impact him, nor does a change in benefit. Does this seem income proportionate? Of course not.

And you see this trickle-down policy really become an avalanche in every state that has a GoP controlled state house. Where they further cut education, health, welfare and other programs. Putting further burden on municipalities. Who then have no choice but to raise property taxes.

When you have a borough, let’s call it Phoenixville, with excellent schools and a diverse socio-economic base, our district is left with little choice but to raise taxes to meet our fiduciary financial burdens. This means that all our seniors, whose benefit the GoP wants to cut, have to pay more property taxes with less income. But do people understand and blame the conservative fiscal policy? No, they simply put the blame on our schools and “greedy” teachers, overpaid Administrators and “runaway” spending by School Boards.

It also means that single parents and two parent working families have to pay more to educate their children, pay more in local taxes, saving less, and having less in their retirement account, which they won’t get for another 5 years if the GoP has their way.

While corporations are being given millions in state and federal tax entitlements, the GoP wants to continue to take away our ability to educate our children, care for our seniors, ensure our Veteran’s and disabled receive medical care and our nation can maintain its roads, bridges, tunnels. All this while police forces, firefighters, teachers and post offices are asked to take pay cuts, layoff staff and give up pensions while they insist on more tax cuts for corporations and the wealth. Still not income proportionate is it?

Do you get it now? Do you see the “Grand Plan” the GoP keeps talking about? Do you understand what happens to the middle and working class if this continues?

This constant carping that liberals want to redistribute wealth is a very elaborate evasive tactic to hide the truth from you, the taxpayer. It is not the Democrats who are stealing your retirement or your savings, it is conservatives who are bleeding our bank and retirement accounts to fund their corporate welfare entitlements.

Let’s say enough is enough. Are you ready? Call your Senator, contact your Representative. Write to your Governor. Please share this, email it to family and co-workers, give it to friends for Valentine’s Day. Post it to your Facebook wall, tweet a link. Print flyers and hand them out at Superbowl Parties. This is too important to ignore.

Contact your local Democratic Committee. Attend School Board and Council meetings. Do not accept the simpleton notion that more taxes is “bad” and will “hurt” business and they then won’t create jobs. We have had a decade of that simpleton nonsense, and guess what? They didn’t create any jobs, they did create amazing wealth for the already wealthy.

I’m done for now. Thanks for reading. And please, if you are ready to put an end to the nonsense, let me know. I’m ready too.

Originally posted to lilongo on Mon Feb 04, 2013 at 08:08 PM PST.

Also republished by Community Spotlight.

EMAIL TO A FRIEND X
Your Email has been sent.
You must add at least one tag to this diary before publishing it.

Add keywords that describe this diary. Separate multiple keywords with commas.
Tagging tips - Search For Tags - Browse For Tags

?

More Tagging tips:

A tag is a way to search for this diary. If someone is searching for "Barack Obama," is this a diary they'd be trying to find?

Use a person's full name, without any title. Senator Obama may become President Obama, and Michelle Obama might run for office.

If your diary covers an election or elected official, use election tags, which are generally the state abbreviation followed by the office. CA-01 is the first district House seat. CA-Sen covers both senate races. NY-GOV covers the New York governor's race.

Tags do not compound: that is, "education reform" is a completely different tag from "education". A tag like "reform" alone is probably not meaningful.

Consider if one or more of these tags fits your diary: Civil Rights, Community, Congress, Culture, Economy, Education, Elections, Energy, Environment, Health Care, International, Labor, Law, Media, Meta, National Security, Science, Transportation, or White House. If your diary is specific to a state, consider adding the state (California, Texas, etc). Keep in mind, though, that there are many wonderful and important diaries that don't fit in any of these tags. Don't worry if yours doesn't.

You can add a private note to this diary when hotlisting it:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary from your hotlist?
Are you sure you want to remove your recommendation? You can only recommend a diary once, so you will not be able to re-recommend it afterwards.
Rescue this diary, and add a note:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary from Rescue?
Choose where to republish this diary. The diary will be added to the queue for that group. Publish it from the queue to make it appear.

You must be a member of a group to use this feature.

Add a quick update to your diary without changing the diary itself:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary?
(The diary will be removed from the site and returned to your drafts for further editing.)
(The diary will be removed.)
Are you sure you want to save these changes to the published diary?

Comment Preferences

  •  You did a great job of explaining (10+ / 0-)

    how this works, made it easy to follow.  Thanks.  I'm more than ready to end this GOP nonsense.

  •  No Dem should support any Regressive Tax (9+ / 0-)

    Regrettably, many Dems at the state and local level do.

    In Minnesota, Dems recently passed REGRESSIVE sales and gambling taxes to finance a stadium for the Minnesota Vikings.

    In Illinois, a couple of years ago, the Dem governor decided to pass a REGRESSIVE 66% hike in the income tax on all citizens, whether they earn 50k or Billions a year.

    And some Dems at the federal level want to pass a REGRESSIVE Carbon Tax, which would increase the energy price by the same amount, whether you are a struggling household in East LA, or Larry Ellison in NoCal, whose Tesla is already subsidized by that same struggling family in East LA.

    So, you're right, we really need to discuss Math.

    And we really need to convince Dems not to pass ANY fiscal policy which will exacerbate wealth or income inequality.

    And regressive taxes will do just that.

    Learn about Centrist Economics, learn about Robert Rubin's Hamilton Project. www.hamiltonproject.org

    by PatriciaVa on Mon Feb 04, 2013 at 08:39:40 PM PST

    •  I am not sure I Agree (0+ / 0-)

      Carbon tax does not have to be "regressive", can you explain more please?

      •  Yes, it could be easily be coupled to (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        marina

        tax credits for low income people if the intent was to be "revenue neutral"

        Besides, the wealthy use way more energy than the poor to start with, so they'd pay more even w/o that -

        Finally, the poor suffer the consequences of pollution WAY more than the wealthy healthwise, so phasing out fossil fuels would benefit them big time in this regards . . .

      •  ah, lilongo (0+ / 0-)

        you obviously haven't met PatriciaVa. She's a classic hit and run poster regarding the Carbon Tax...

        Javelin, Jockey details, all posts, discontinue

        by jam on Tue Feb 05, 2013 at 07:18:00 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Carbon tax doesn't have to be regressive - (0+ / 0-)

        But since the one Percent control the state legislatures and the Congress, then we can expect that they will be. Most tax payment schedules are regressive - carbon tax will be too.

        The most simple, inexpensive  and elegant way to reduce the energy consumption in the US is to use wind and or/solar, attached at the roof top, across the nation to replace the energy used for each residence's hot water heater. But do we do that?

        No, instead we have people in Congress that state that by letting the price of oil and gas go higher it forces people to do with less energy consumption. But that is unrealistic - even when someone becomes unemployed because of the high cost of filling their car's gas tank, they stay home and use hot water.
        (Many [people quite working their part time jobs once the cost of getting somewhere for a mere four hours on the clock made it too expensive to consider practical.

        Offer your heart some Joy every day of your life, and spread it along to others.

        by Truedelphi on Tue Feb 05, 2013 at 12:16:30 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Good, until you get to the end (0+ / 0-)

    What percentage of the people who read this do you think think taxes are bad?. Your analysis is fine, but if you wanted to talk to the "no tax increases ever" people, this really isn't the place to do that.

    -7.75, -8.10; . . . Seneca Falls, Selma and Stonewall (h/t cooper888)

    by Dave in Northridge on Tue Feb 05, 2013 at 07:13:38 AM PST

  •  Bravo - Agree! (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    marina, cherie clark, JerryNA

    Yes, Please, Everyone - Repost, tweet, facebook!
    I've been making the exact same comments!

    Well said, well explained, well done!

    We need people to understand we are being SCREWED,
    and we need for it to STOP! Time for people in DC to
    start thinking about us, and not all the BS that keeps
    filling up the minutes that we don't have!

    I mean everyone in DC both Dems & Repubs! No austerity talk, grand bargains, age raising, chained CPI...

    It time for the ship to get put back on a course of sanity!

  •  Some questions and misconceptions.. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Sparhawk

    First off, what cuts are we talking about?

    We have only had continuing resolutions for nearly 4 years.

    We have had proposed budgets from the President and from the House.  But none of these have passed.

    So, what cuts specifically?  Are you talking about proposed cuts?  What about the proposed cuts the President is bragging about recently of 1.4 Trillion cut in discretionary programs over ten years?  Are those included?

    Next - Education.  You seem to be under some delusion that the federal government pays for local education in this country.  It doesn't.  The federal government contributes roughly 10-11% of all funds spent on education.  The vast majority of those funds are for lunch programs and other programs (including Pell Grants) - not for teachers, etc.

    Here's another misconception -

    The GoP wants to continue to cut education funds at the federal level, which means each state has less funds for public elementary, high school and college, which means local school and property taxes go up, which is an inherent tax on the middle class and working poor. Remember, these taxes are not income proportionate as Federal and State Income taxes are.
    Not income proportionate?  Of course they are.  Do poor people in your town live in 5 bedroom mansions with a pool?  No?  Well, then they don't pay anywhere near the property taxes as the wealthy people who do.

    And, in some communities a good portion of the property tax bill is paid for by businesses - retail and industry.  Some communities are smart enough to set aside whole tracts of land for industrial parks that attract businesses and raise the tax base.  Some large communities in my state, Illinois, charge businesses a higher property tax rate.

    While I agree some federal cuts will mean hardships locally, we cannot continue to borrow against the future.  Cuts should first go to corporate giveaways and boondoggle projects that no one will miss anyway.

    •  Business is everything (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Bon Temps

      Without it, you have nothing. No public sector, no schools, no hospitals, no police, nothing.

      Business pays for all of it. Smart public policy encourages business to locate in your area and provide mutually beneficial services.

      (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
      Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

      by Sparhawk on Tue Feb 05, 2013 at 09:37:15 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Not where I live, new businesses coming in are (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        RickD, TheDuckManCometh

        routinely given YEARS of tax abatement and then when they need to start paying taxes they ask for an extension and get it. It's fine to attract new industry but they are drags on the infrastructure and NEED to be paying for it.

        The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives and the dreams shall never die. ~ Edward M. (Ted) Kennedy

        by cherie clark on Tue Feb 05, 2013 at 09:53:57 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  How many local jobs do they provide? (0+ / 0-)

          How much sales and property tax do the locals pay? All of that originates with the business.

          (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
          Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

          by Sparhawk on Tue Feb 05, 2013 at 10:29:22 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Would they wither and die without public subsidies (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            TheDuckManCometh, howd

            Businesses want to take all the credit for "creating jobs," but really, they're just participants in the economy.  
            They want praise for simply pursuing their own interests.

            •  These are big companies and if they would go out (0+ / 0-)

              of business without these sweetheart tax deals they need a better business model or go out of business. We are located in the middle of the country which is an advantage for all kinds of busnesses, there are plenty of reasons to locate here without giving away the store.

              The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives and the dreams shall never die. ~ Edward M. (Ted) Kennedy

              by cherie clark on Tue Feb 05, 2013 at 01:53:52 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  I can't tell you ow much busnesses pay of the (0+ / 0-)

            property taxes, but I do know what I pay, $3898 on a house worth on a good day 145,000. They do provide local jobs, usually low paying and a hundred or so at a time. Bare in mind unemplyment has not been very high here.

            The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives and the dreams shall never die. ~ Edward M. (Ted) Kennedy

            by cherie clark on Tue Feb 05, 2013 at 01:49:48 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Do you work at that company? (0+ / 0-)

              Then it pays your property tax, too; all of it.

              Do you own or work at a restaurant that services company employees? It pays your property tax in that case as well.

              It doesn't matter if you call it 'corporate tax' or 'property tax' or 'income tax'. Your employer pays all of it.

              (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
              Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

              by Sparhawk on Tue Feb 05, 2013 at 05:21:00 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I am retired so I pay my own taxes (0+ / 0-)

                My taxes go up because of the deals these businesses get. Honestly if the city was going to give tax breaks better to small businesses who actually do keep creating jobs.

                The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives and the dreams shall never die. ~ Edward M. (Ted) Kennedy

                by cherie clark on Tue Feb 05, 2013 at 05:55:17 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

      •  Some of the most successful communities (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Sparhawk, nextstep

        have developed through a symbiotic relationship between residents and businesses.

        I look at some of the suburbs of Chicago where industrial districts supplied not only jobs but the tax revenues to provide some of the best supplied schools and parks and libraries in the country.

        Nowadays, businesses are the enemy and derided.  I just don't get it.

        •  'businesses are the enemy' is also dumb (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          RickD, TheDuckManCometh

          That's almost a Faux News talking point.  Businesses are not the enemy, nor are they our salvation.  They are essential, but not the end goal.  Societies need businesses, but needs people even more.  Healthy, safe, sane people.  

          The enemy is corporate welfare, special tax breaks for the rich and well-connected, whether big businesses or rich individuals.  Businesses did very well in this country when the top tax rate was 90% with no special rate for dividends and capital gains.  It is government and the middle class which is being bled dry with tax cuts, special tax rates, special incentives, etc. ad nauseum.  Without government, there is nothing to hold together society.  Without the middle class, we become a third world country.

          By the way, Sparhawk, I challenge you to name one Libertarian country existing today or in human history.  If it exists (or existed), then would you want to live there?  I cannot think of one, not in over 8,000 years of recorded human history.  It does not exist because libertarianism does not work to create or maintain a society.

          •  Re (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Bon Temps

            JerryNA, nobody here is suggesting we live in Somalia.

            I am suggesting that it be understood that business pays the whole freight for everything, and that if you want to live in a world full of all the things you say, you need to understand that fact. The only thing that adds to anyone's net standard of living is people growing, mining, or manufacturing something. Every other activity, everything, draws its sustenance from people doing those things.

            You have to balance your local needs/wants with what the business is willing or able to provide. Otherwise they'll just go somewhere else.

            (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
            Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

            by Sparhawk on Tue Feb 05, 2013 at 11:05:07 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  not with tax breaks (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              TheDuckManCometh

              Competition works well if states are competing with education and infrastructure.  Competition breaks down when states compete by who can lower taxes the most, because that is a race to the bottom.  Without taxes, local infrastructure and education breaks down.  That is self-destructive to the society.  Other aspects, like climate and natural resources, cannot be changed by the government, only tweaked to a very limited extent.  Even so, it is a governmental function to protect those resources.  Businesses may say they hate environmental laws, but that is short-sighted.  Would you want to live in China, one of the most polluted countries in the world?  Or in Texas, the most polluted place in the U.S., which is competing to be more like China in terms of deregulation?

              As far as your business worship, that goes way too far.  Government jobs are just as real as private sector jobs.  Real estate, food and entertainment spending, property taxes and sales taxes, all of that is just as real when spent by a government worker as by a private sector employee.  Many functions can only be done by government in order for society to operate.  The idea of a private for-profit police force, private fire fighting, private military, private interstate highways, private disaster rescue, etc., just does not work in the real world.  Even private pharmaceutical companies rely on university and federal research for most of the basic science discovery (I know part this very well).  Contract law is written and enforced by the government in all major societies.  Your libertarian fantasy breaks down because not everything is nor should be private and for-profit.  Business produces quite a lot, but it is not the be-all and end-all of society.  Government must exist and therefore must be considered when accounting for the economy.

              •  Re (0+ / 0-)
                As far as your business worship, that goes way too far.  Government jobs are just as real as private sector jobs.  Real estate, food and entertainment spending, property taxes and sales taxes, all of that is just as real when spent by a government worker as by a private sector employee.
                I defy you to do any of those things in your town without a factory nearby (or a tourist site, farms, etc). Export income pays for the whole party. You can claim whatever you want about government spending, etc. Without a factory there is no government.
                Many functions can only be done by government in order for society to operate.  The idea of a private for-profit police force, private fire fighting, private military, private interstate highways, private disaster rescue, etc., just does not work in the real world.
                None of those functions can exist without a factory funding all of it, public or private. Private export business drives all other business.

                (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
                Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

                by Sparhawk on Tue Feb 05, 2013 at 12:19:47 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  now I see (0+ / 0-)

                  I already understood that businesses manufacture products, which are the source of profits, which ultimately drives the economy.  I have taken economics classes and run my own small business.  The economy is not the same as society.  The world does not begin and end with business.  Humans need both an economy and a society to survive.  Without humans, there is no business.

                  I understand, now.  Libertarianism is not your economic philosophy, it's your religion.  Every word I said about government and business working together to make a society has been filtered out by your reality distortion field.  I've been wasting my time instead of having a discussion with a rational person.

          •  Your mythical 90% tax paradise (0+ / 0-)

            never existed.  90% plus was the marginal rate.  No one ever paid 90%, and business owners had many more deductions then than they do now.  The top earners paid slightly more in actual percentage than top earners do now.

            But more importantly, it existed in a time of extremely small government.  Government expenditures are now double what they were in 1950.

            Medicare and Medicaid did not even exist in the 50's when those marginal rates were in place!

            Your hatred of wealthy people seems to cloud your reasoning.  Everyone gets "special breaks".  What would you call Earned Income Tax Credits for lower income individuals?  A special break.  Most people making $40k and under pay no income tax at all.   A special break.

            Now, on the other hand, those folks you think are getting all the "special breaks" are paying most of the income taxes in this country.  The top 10% of earners in this country pay 70% of all personal income taxes.  That's a special break???

            All this class warfare crap is non-productive.  We need businesses. We need businesses to be successful and to hire more workers who can prosper and contribute to society - in taxes as well as in other ways.

            •  show me (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              howd, Ironic Chef

              Show me where I said that I hate businesses.  Show me where I said I hate wealthy people.  I do not.  Both are necessary for a capitalistic society, but so is an effective government.  I am not a communist, nor a socialist, nor a libertarian- because none of those work.  Nor does "free market" capitalism, because there is also no such thing.  Government is as essential as business to our society.  Since it is necessary, it needs the money to operate well (not minimally, but well).  Therefore, taxes not tax breaks for the already wealthy.  Your belief in my alleged hatred of business is your problem, not mine, because it is not my point of view nor my argument.  I have no desire to defend the strawman you built.

              As far as tax rates, both the nominal and effective tax rates right now are near the lowest they have been in about 60 years.  We have less of a government spending problem than we do an income problem.  Government has gone so far out of the way of business that government is not functional.  That is not a stable condition.  Taxes are being pushed from the richest to the middle and lower classes, the most in 60 years.  Income inequality is the highest it has been in 70 years, making us look like a third world country.  Our economy cannot operate with a squeezed out middle class.  Otherwise, the businesses you worship will have too few customers to be able to afford their products.  The economy is suffering, all so we can protect the wealthiest tax breaks.  The poor get tax breaks because they need it so as not to starve.  The rich get tax breaks they do not need because they have bought enough politicians and deluded people like you.  I'm not arguing for bleeding the wealthy dry, just having them pay a little bit more.  The country ran just fine when capital gains counted as regular income, for example.  That is what I and others here are trying to say, but you and Sparhawk act as if we are asking for total confiscation followed by human sacrifice.

              •  It's simply not enough, Jerry (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Sparhawk

                Ok.. maybe you don't hate businesses and rich people.. you just seem to blame all the country's fiscal woes on them.

                But the plain facts are, you cannot make up a trillion dollar deficit without indeed "bleeding the wealthy dry".  To reach a balanced budget, you would need to raise taxes on the top earners drastically and raise middle class taxes substantially.

                Personally, I feel the middle class should be more willing to pay higher taxes to pay for the federal programs they vote for.  Americans are funny about that, however, compared to their European counterparts.. American want the benefits, but they don't want to pay for them.  Or, would prefer someone else pay for them.

                •  we disagree in degree, not in principle (0+ / 0-)

                  The very wealthiest got the lion's share of the benefit from tax breaks over the last decade, so they should pay more.  This was clearly shown in the September 2012 Congressional Research Service report that was recently re-issued (after being squashed by the GOP).  The upper middle class should also pay some more.  

                  I disagree with your "plain facts", which are not factual.  The government can do very well with modest tax increases and small spending cuts in the short run.  In the longer run, Medicare Part D will be too expensive, mainly due to the non-negotiation provision put in by former Rep. Billy Tauzin (R-La), who "coincidentally" went on to head the drug co. lobbying group PhRMA for $2M per year.  He was bribed and we were screwed.  Negotiate drug prices.  Go to single payer health care, like every freaking other industrialized country in the world including all of our allies.  They have better health outcomes for half the cost per capita.  Social Security has been robbed blind for the last 40 years to pay for what should have been coming from general tax revenue.  That can be fixed by uncapping SocSec.  Stop making capital gains and dividends something holy, and have people pay regular income taxes on them.  Most U.S. citizens do not get much income from those sources, and the ones who do can afford it.  Lest you think I am a "taker" or a "moocher", I will get hit by all of these taxes.  I'm willing to do so.  It's not bleeding anyone dry or a sacrifice, it's just normal taxation in the rest of the civilized world, even countries with economies doing much better than ours.  I am certain that we will survive, your doom and gloom non-"plain facts" fears notwithstanding.

            •  Yes and no. If you are talking about a legit (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              JerryNA

              Business, one that is NOT connected with Wall Street, military, or Big Pharma, Big Health Insurers, I agree.

              However, the "businesses" I mentioned above are in ownership of our Congress  people and state legislators. They manage to keep us in a perpetual state of war, to keep in place out-dated, worthless polices such as the drug wars, the mandated health insurance that is so expensive, yet still forces its users to argue for hours for for needed treatment, and on top of that the businesses related to banking and finance receive through their ownership massive amounts of "loans" from the Federal Reserve, to hoard those loans away from Main Street Businesses, and still pay virtually noting in taxes. (If you study what happened with TARP repayment by the banks, for instance, you find that the banks making repayments were given tax breaks - penny for penny, for each loan amount they paid. And some Big Banks get over 15 billion bucks a year as a gift. (Note the NASCAR, Disney, McDonald's companies getting some $ 89 billions of dollars when the End the fiscal cliff legislation got signed several weeks back. Name a small business that gets help like that!  Funny what gets "tucked into" various legal provisions.)

              So naturally people are mad. Like I stated up post, prior to about ten years ago, the banks and finance companies got less than ten cents out of every dollar of profit created in our nation. Now the banks and big financial firms get a damn forty nine cents out of every dollar of profit created.

              Meanwhile Verizon makes billions in profit and pays not a dime... What is wrong with these images that fester in our brains, every time we pick up a newspaper?

              Offer your heart some Joy every day of your life, and spread it along to others.

              by Truedelphi on Tue Feb 05, 2013 at 12:40:45 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  90% Marginal Tax Rate (0+ / 0-)

              The main benefit of the "mythical 90% tax paradise" was not in collecting taxes on the rich but rather in keeping the rich from taking all the money for themselves.  

              In 1980 the 1% took 8-9% of the total income pie for themselves.  Today, the 1% take up to 20% of the total pie for themselves!  What has changed in the last 30 years to cause this shift, or dare I say, redistribution, of wealth to the 1%?  

              A) Are the 1% working longer hours?  
              B) Are the 1% that much smarter than the 1% in 1980?  
              C) Are the 1% responsible for all the increased productivity in our economy?
              D) Is it because the upper marginal tax rates were slashed, and now the 1% could take all the money for themselves and keep it?

              My answer is D.

              But don't take my word for it,  here is the third richest person in the world, Warren Buffet:

              "Through the tax code, there has been class warfare waged, and my class has won," Buffett told Business Wire CEO Cathy Baron Tamraz at a luncheon in honor of the company's 50th anniversary. "It's been a rout."
              You may think class warfare is non-productive, but for the rich, it has been extremely productive.  Just ask Warren Buffet.

              Poor man wants to be rich. Rich man wants to king. And the king ain't satisifed until he rules everything. B.Springsteen

              by howd on Tue Feb 05, 2013 at 01:32:53 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

      •  encourage business is not the same as 'no taxes' (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        TheDuckManCometh, howd

        Only on the surface do libertarian arguments make sense.  When you really think about it, the libertarian me-only fantasy falls apart.

        Here is what businesses need:
        Good roads and bridges for transportation (transports goods).
        Good schools to educate new workers and entrepreneurs.
        Good medical care for all workers (lowers absenteeism).  [All industrialized countries with strong economies have universal health care, except for us, and we are falling behind.]

        This is the same as what individuals need, because without people, businesses are nothing.  All of this public, societal work and infrastructure costs money, which means taxes.  The 'business is everything' mantra is mindless drivel.

  •  The problem with your reasoning (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    lgmcp, JerryNA

    Outside of the center-left, math is considered to have a liberal bias.  This statement is only a bit snarky -- try making a quantitative argument to a teabagger and you'll be lucky to get out of range before he gets his AR-15 loaded.

  •  I often think that innumeracy (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Sparhawk, JerryNA

    is as great a threat to democracy as illiteracy, and far less effectively overcome.  

    Relative scale, relative risks, and longterm impacts are so very poorly understood. All big numbers sound the same.  Interpreting charts and graphs seems like too work (and just about anything to do with publicpolicy and numbers is best said via charts and graphs).  
     

    "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

    by lgmcp on Tue Feb 05, 2013 at 09:19:32 AM PST

  •  Hi Li! (0+ / 0-)

    Glad to see you posting here. Great diary. Glad to see it on top of the Community Spotlight.

    "There is some good in this world...And it's worth fighting for!" Samwise Gangi

    by Rusty in PA on Tue Feb 05, 2013 at 09:22:26 AM PST

  •  Here is the problem with their concept (the rich) (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    18038, TheDuckManCometh, Icicle68, howd

    ... The US is estimated to be worth $58 TRILLION, and the top 2% hold $44 TRILLION of that already.

    The trend continues unabated, transferring wealth from the masses to the very tiny portion of the Filthy Rich (tm).

    If left unchecked, and the trend continues, the vast majority of people will reach a point where they cannot afford food or rent or energy to stay warm/cool.

    When a critical core of people plunged deep into desperation has been reached, they will ultimately react, and that reaction will be VIOLENCE.

    We have been through this in history repeatedly around the world, over the centuries. The same idiot filthy rich, royal whatever, plutocratic blah blah.... in the end they end up DEAD with extreme prejudice.

    Here in the 21st century, the "peasants" are now armed with weapons that can make this eventuality truly spectacular.

    The filthy rich, as always, are too arrogant or stupid to see it coming, and will meet the same fate their predecessors faced, rinse/repeat.

    The key indicator of that moment approaching will be foretold when the once stalwart defenders of "The People's" right to own firearms, the right wing base support, suddenly changes its collective mind and supports gun control and even confiscation.

    Knowing that the end is coming and if they don't now disarm the peasants, the unwashed masses facing starvation may rise up and slay them.

    I'm not advocating, I'm just pointing out history and the inevitability of this from a systems engineering view. 1789.

    We can all avoid this horrific fate (well, I personally would enjoy it, but for the sake of the children I'll sit on my personal blood lust).

    We can implement something along the lines of what David Stockman and Warren Buffet and others have espoused.... a one time SURTAX of $X TRILLIONS to right the ship of income/wealth distribution.

    Take $30 TRILLION from the Filthy Rich( tm) today, pay off the national debt, invest $5 TRILLION in infrastructure, and divide the rest in a check for each household in the 98%.

    Raise the minimum wage to $20/hr, double the pay for military under the rank of Captain.

    Implement single-payer National Health Insurance, work out how to deal with the sudden unemployment of the 100's of thousands from the private insurance industry that just died.

    Make all State Universities FREE. You are free to go to Harvard for $70K/yr, but UMass is $0/yr and frankly just as good at the undergraduate level.

    Reverse the Republican "War on Education" and fully fund public education. Put an end to private K-12, end Charters, end home schooling. RENDER UNTO CAESAR.... your child's mind for 8 hours a day.... so commands the bible.

    Because our nation will no longer  tolerate deliberate ignorance and idiocy by design. YOU do not have the right to waste your child's mind, your child will have a chance to become an educated 21st century citizen regardless of how ignorant, backwards, syphilitic, and superstitious YOU are. The nation will not be allowed to commit the child abuse of deliberate ignorance against your own child.

    •  Very well stated, The Jester. Thank (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      howd, The Jester

      You.

      Over the last ten years, forty nine cents out of every dollar of profit created in the USA goes into the coffers of the Big Bankers. Back in the seventies and eighties, only eight or nine cents out of every dollar of profit went to Banks and Finance Companies.

      How we will ever get back to that point, I don't know. We don't have Single Payer Universal HC; we have instead a "reformed" method of health insurance, that will continue to keep our populace forced to pay more money for less care, with health results that keep us right around the level of Zambia. This allows more money to the Big Insurers and Big Pharma - so the likelihood we will get to "reform" the "reform" is pretty small.

      Offer your heart some Joy every day of your life, and spread it along to others.

      by Truedelphi on Tue Feb 05, 2013 at 12:23:15 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  troo (3+ / 0-)

    Nothing more entertaining than pointing out to a "fiscal conservative" that being tightfisted at the Federal end means increased state and local taxes.

    I think too many of us focus so tightly on what happens at the Federal level that we forget the real battleground is in our towns, townships, cities, and states.

  •  Math Continued (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    howd

    The treasury and social security would fill if people made living wages.  Add 2-4$/hr X 40hr X 52weeks.  Full to overflowing.  Less family stress.    These are the consumers who would consume in the 66% consumer economy.

    Ibis Exilis "Mingling religion with politics may be disavowed and reprobated by every inhabitant of America" Thomas Paine

    by Ibis Exilis on Tue Feb 05, 2013 at 10:37:06 AM PST

  •  Note the benefits to the rich (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    howd

    are also relatively small, so why the stubborn resistance to any common sense fairness?  One cannot suspect some other more sinister long term plan at work here.  For instance the slow bleeding of the middle class not only affects the tax burden disproportionately, but it limits investment capital from the middle class meaning the rich hold an enormous leverage over all other borrowers.  They essentially get to hold the note for the middle class (i.e. the shark tank tv show).  Perhaps this is the position that they are really after.  They get to control the financing and get enriched on the ingenuity of the innovators and market makers who are ultimately left holding the debt burden entirely.  It is an echo of the predatory model established many years ago by companies like Bain Capital when Mitt ran the show.  This same model is at the heart of central banks across the globe exploiting poorer nations.  It is a kind of indentured servitude.  Borrow to pursue a better life with something valuable, pay the loaner the profits, loaner arbitrarily calls the loan, loaner steals  the valuable product/resource, and borrower is left "indentured."

  •  Have you considered graphics ? (0+ / 0-)

    Bar charts and pie charts and the like ?

    The visuals tend to stick in memory because they tickle additional eidetic memory capabilities.

    Numbers are good. Of course.

    "Have you left no sense of decency, sir, at long last?" Army Attorney to Sen. McCarthy, 1954. "We have done nothing to be ashamed of. We have nothing to apologize for." NRA 12/14/2012.

    by bontemps2012 on Tue Feb 05, 2013 at 01:46:57 PM PST

  •  What federal programs were cut? (0+ / 0-)

    And when? I was unaware.

  •  That's not math, it is simple arithmatic. (0+ / 0-)

    Math is least squares and partial differential equations with boundry values - stuff like that.

    ...Son, those Elephants always look out for themselves. If you happen to get a crumb or two from their policies, it's a complete coincidence. -Malharden's Dad

    by slowbutsure on Tue Feb 05, 2013 at 02:45:00 PM PST

Click here for the mobile view of the site