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things like the smashed and brutalized body of Noah Pozner.

Newspapers and the media should have shown it

too many are detached from the reality of what guns do

they watch movies, tv shows, video games

it desensitizes

it is not real

I think back to when electeds on the Hill came out of seeing the Abu Ghraib photos sick to their stomachs

we should all have seen them, all of them

as Abu Ghraib was an almost inevitable byproduct of our idiotic decisions about Iraq, the violence of 12/14 in Newtown is an almost inevitable product of our idiotic policies on guns

if the NRA and gun advocates want to continue their blather, let us respond with the results

all of the results

including Noah's body, with its multiple wounds from a weapon with a muzzle velocity in excess of 3000 feet per second, with projectiles that deform upon impact (no through and through), that are designed for only one purpose - to kill

AR-15s are designed to kill full-sized adults with a single round

remember that

now remember that the CT state medical examiner said some of the children had up to 11 wounds from Lanza's Bushmaster AR-15

let that sink in

trust me, you cannot imagine

which is why, if his parents are willing, we should ALL see

when Congress debates restrictions, put those photos up on the floor, and show them on C-Span

it is long overdue that Americans fully understand what is at risk -

... more smashed and destroyed and brutalized bodies, including of young children

and if this gets me added to the NRA's enemy list, then I will claim that honor proudly.

Originally posted to teacherken on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 08:43 AM PST.

Also republished by Repeal or Amend the Second Amendment (RASA) and Shut Down the NRA.

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Comment Preferences

  •  I wrote most of this as a comment (208+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    absdoggy, coquiero, Simplify, blue aardvark, zerelda, Cronesense, drnatrl, mamamorgaine, wenchacha, Shockwave, mindara, Darryl House, shopkeeper, a2nite, kharma, mconvente, JoanMar, Bisbonian, DefendOurConstitution, smartdemmg, luckydog, S F Hippie, Lying eyes, Clytemnestra, Glen The Plumber, Temmoku, Blu Gal in DE, Wreck Smurfy, tacet, PapaChach, draghnfly, gloriana, SaintC, Noddy, Ricochet67, denig, stormicats, nice marmot, tofumagoo, Jarrayy, crankypatriot, zenox, MKinTN, Nicci August, Oaktown Girl, kevinpdx, expatjourno, dull knife, Emerson, Joieau, karmsy, deeproots, lunachickie, dotsright, Laurel in CA, CwV, Texknight, Actbriniel, howabout, bronte17, ksp, janetsal, politik, northerntier, Ekaterin, liz dexic, NM Ray, raincrow, kurious, rebel ga, fhcec, firemage, fumie, dewtx, annrose, never forget 2000, Loudoun County Dem, roystah, SherriG, xaxnar, slowbutsure, bear83, BachFan, cyncynical, Bluesee, UFOH1, Chaddiwicker, turn Virginia blue, Pam from Calif, SilentBrook, alisonk, SadieSue, texasmom, cocinero, asterkitty, gizmo59, zozie, marina, pvasileff, filkertom, hwy70scientist, murrayewv, HCKAD, ShoshannaD, nmjardine, mlharges, NancyWH, oceanrain, shypuffadder, skip945, doingbusinessas, Yamara, TAH from SLC, Betterthansoap, 1BQ, tombstone, luckylizard, WearyIdealist, riverlover, wozzlecat, political mutt, pixxer, Calamity Jean, Williston Barrett, The Marti, Marjmar, VTCC73, anodnhajo, mikeconwell, Carol in San Antonio, CorinaR, chrismorgan, Capt Crunch, No one gets out alive, Radical Faith, The Idiot, oldmanriver, msdrown, offred, Da Rock, AdamR510, JohnB47, LynChi, Mistral Wind, teabaggerssuckbalz, exiledfromTN, mrblifil, sawgrass727, KySeattle, catly, RJDixon74135, BeninSC, greengemini, houyhnhnm, miss SPED, mujr, RiveroftheWest, Bollox Ref, BusyinCA, third Party please, carolyn urban, aseth, Anne was here, jamess, zooecium, cpresley, petulans, justiceputnam, Eric Twocents, SanFernandoValleyMom, psnyder, emal, lcrp, deha, oldpotsmuggler, Ozymandius, Debs2, bobnbob, sydneyluv, j0em0mma, lady blair, dsb, peacestpete, OHeyeO, mrsgoo, Debby, elginblt, Shippo1776, kayak58, 207wickedgood, deePA, Bule Betawi, basquebob, kaliope, Grandma Susie, ClapClapSnap, MKHector, OleHippieChick, deviant24x, jayden, OllieGarkey, Therapy, Mighty Ike, TPain, life is making tacos, conniptionfit, jhb90277, Kay Observer2

    on the recent diary by Upper West

    I decided to post it separately as well

    because I feel so strongly about it

    Noah's mother wanted Governor Malone to see what had happened to his son, so he would remember it

    the Governor wept

    we should all weep

    hence this diary

    do what you want with it

    I only know I had to post it

    "We didn't set out to save the world; we set out to wonder how other people are doing and to reflect on how our actions affect other people's hearts." - Pema Chodron

    by teacherken on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 08:43:45 AM PST

  •  No we shouldn't. What for? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    raptavio

    Boehner Just Wants Wife To Listen, Not Come Up With Alternative Debt-Reduction Ideas

    by dov12348 on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 08:45:54 AM PST

  •  No high capacity magazines. (31+ / 0-)

    And there HAS to be a way to ban rifles like the AR-15 without banning all semi-automatics.

    I was so in awe of Noah's mother for bringing the Governor to see her son.  That took a lot of strength.  I'm not sure I would have the strength to do what she said, and I am a ferocious mother.

    I blog about my daughter with autism at her website

    by coquiero on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 08:50:33 AM PST

  •  People are intelligent enough to know what... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    annecros

    ...happened and to see it in their imagination.  Yes, gun nuts should see it - but not be forced - and that's about it.

    Boehner Just Wants Wife To Listen, Not Come Up With Alternative Debt-Reduction Ideas

    by dov12348 on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 08:50:55 AM PST

    •  imagination is insufficient (40+ / 0-)

      and far too many really do not understand

      I accept that it would be shocking, and turn the stomachs of many people

      and that MIGHT force Congress to act appropriately

      Emmett Till's mother was insistent that people see what had been done to her boy.

      that radicalized people

      we need America to be radicalized

      "We didn't set out to save the world; we set out to wonder how other people are doing and to reflect on how our actions affect other people's hearts." - Pema Chodron

      by teacherken on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 08:59:52 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Surely you can't mean literally "force..."? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        annecros

        What about parents of the victims who don't want to look?

        My imagination is sufficient.  

        Boehner Just Wants Wife To Listen, Not Come Up With Alternative Debt-Reduction Ideas

        by dov12348 on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 09:08:57 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  let me clarify (39+ / 0-)

          1.  it should be part of the coverage, with appropriate warnings about the graphic nature of the image - hell, we do spoiler alerts on the results of Olympic contests

          2. it should be required for those arguing against the appropriate regulations - if they want to oppose, have them deal with the real results of what these weapons do

          3.  it certainly should be required for our elected representatives.  They should be informed about the real world impact

          4.  it should be available to all adults who want to see in some format

          War is Hell - so said Sherman, who created enough of it in his March to the Sea

          these are weapons of war

          the Hell they create can be seen in the bodies of the children who took up to 11 rounds when 1 is sufficient to kill a full-sized adult

          allowing these weapons in civilian hands is the equivalent of acquiescing in the waging of war with its concomitant human cost in our cities, villages, and countryside

          "We didn't set out to save the world; we set out to wonder how other people are doing and to reflect on how our actions affect other people's hearts." - Pema Chodron

          by teacherken on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 09:14:47 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Required by what or whom? (7+ / 0-)
            2. it should be required for those arguing against the appropriate regulations - if they want to oppose, have them deal with the real results of what these weapons do
            Who would impose this requirement, and how would that requirement be enforced? Would you impose this requirement on anyone who opposes any gun control measure, or just those who oppose the gun control measures you favor?

            Further, this line of reasoning still runs into the problem I identify below; if you're going to argue that those who oppose gun safety regulations should be "required" to view pictures of the carnage caused by guns, then what answer do you have for the abortion-criminalizer who thinks that those who favor reproductive rights should be "required" to view gruesome pictures of aborted fetuses?

            "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." --Dom Helder Camara, archbishop of Recife

            by JamesGG on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 09:24:03 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Who would impose the requirement? (6+ / 0-)

              Anyone selling guns.

              You want to buy a gun? You need to look at the pictures of what it can do to a flesh and blood person.
               

              It is time to #Occupy Media.

              by lunachickie on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 11:17:15 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  And how is that any different... (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Neuroptimalian, mmacdDE

                ...from laws requiring a woman to view an ultrasound or a "here's why abortion is bad" fearmongering speech from a doctor before exercising her right to an abortion?

                "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." --Dom Helder Camara, archbishop of Recife

                by JamesGG on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 12:28:56 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  only the same if you give personhood to fetus (8+ / 0-)

                  an abortion is something a woman does to herself

                  what a gun does is to someone else

                  "We didn't set out to save the world; we set out to wonder how other people are doing and to reflect on how our actions affect other people's hearts." - Pema Chodron

                  by teacherken on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 12:35:35 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  And those who want to criminalize abortion... (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    JohnnySacks, dov12348

                    ...do think that fetuses are full-fledged human beings.

                    Thus, they believe that a woman seeking an abortion should be forced to confront what they characterize as the consequences of her actions.

                    What makes the idea that people trying to buy guns should be forced to look at pictures of dead children any different from that?

                    In fact, I'd suggest that the case for forcing prospective gun owners to look at pictures of dead children is somewhat worse—since the death of the fetus is a result of every successful abortion, whereas dead children result from an extremely small percentage of gun purchases.

                    For the record, I'm pro-choice and oppose state restrictions like forcing women to undergo ultrasounds or speeches. I also oppose the idea of forcing all prospective gun owners to look at pictures of dead children. I'm not seeing where an argument for the latter doesn't open up an argument for the former as well.

                    "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." --Dom Helder Camara, archbishop of Recife

                    by JamesGG on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 01:04:29 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  still differences that you ignore (4+ / 0-)

                      pictures of aborted fetuses already readily available for anyone who wants to see them

                      to date, there is no jurisdiction in the United States where the fetus is a person - even MS voted down a personhood amendment

                      as of right now a woman in the 1st trimester has an absolute right to terminate a pregnancy

                      even Scalia in his opinion in Heller acknowledged the government has the right to regulate gun ownership

                      so the situations are not currently parallel

                      and since neither of us is going to convince the other this will be my last response to you on this thread, not because of irritation - you offer cogent arguments for your position.  I simply have a limited amount of time for writing and for being online right now.  I appreciate your tone even though we strongly disagree.

                      "We didn't set out to save the world; we set out to wonder how other people are doing and to reflect on how our actions affect other people's hearts." - Pema Chodron

                      by teacherken on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 04:11:08 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                •  Who said it had to be different? (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  NancyWH

                  At any rate, teacherken explains to you why it's different.

                  What was your point, again?

                  It is time to #Occupy Media.

                  by lunachickie on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 12:42:46 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  My point is... (0+ / 0-)

                    ...that if you're arguing that every decision a person makes should be accompanied by their being forced to view the most gruesome and horrific possible consequence of that decision, then that logic must hold for women exercising their right to an abortion as well as for people exercising their right to purchase a gun.

                    What those arguing for forcing gun-buyers to view pictures haven't done thus far is show how the two situations aren't analogous without referencing your own opinions on the two issues—in other words, the argument hasn't really gone beyond "forcing gun owners to see pictures is right but forcing women seeking abortions to see pictures is wrong, because I oppose gun ownership and support abortion rights."

                    I'm not seeing how consistency doesn't require that if you're arguing that prospective gun owners be forced to view gruesome pictures of dead children, you don't have an argument against the idea of women seeking abortions being forced to view gruesome abortion pictures or ultrasounds, or to hear a "you're killing your baby" speech from the doctor.

                    "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." --Dom Helder Camara, archbishop of Recife

                    by JamesGG on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 01:11:07 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I am pretty sure (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      1BQ

                      it was deemed constitutional for said abortion clinics to shove said ugly photos in my face if I happen to walk by as long as they don't block the sidewalk (and stay a certain distance away from the entrance of a clinic).

                       I, personally, don't like either of these things--but it appears one of them is ok with the law.

                      Why not the other?

                      I keep waiting for you to answer that, but you just seem to be making argument just for the sake of doing so.

                      It is time to #Occupy Media.

                      by lunachickie on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 01:45:43 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I'm not saying it should be illegal. (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        zett
                        I am pretty sure it was deemed constitutional for said abortion clinics to shove said ugly photos in my face if I happen to walk by as long as they don't block the sidewalk (and stay a certain distance away from the entrance of a clinic).
                        First, I think you mean "abortion opponents," not "abortion clinics."

                        Second, you're right that it is constitutional for them to do that. It's disgusting, but it's constitutional, so long as they're not violating your rights, physically harming you, or blocking access to an abortion clinic.

                        I, personally, don't like either of these things--but it appears one of them is ok with the law.

                        Why not the other?

                        I'm not arguing that it should be illegal to show people gruesome pictures of dead children. As long as the child's parents approve of the release of their child's picture, I think it should be perfectly legal to display it under most conditions. (I think we should treat such pictures like other material intended for mature audiences, restricting their display in places where children could conceivably see them without their parents having approved of it first.)

                        However, you took it a step further and argued that it should not only be legal to display such pictures, but that those who want to exercise their legal right to buy a firearm should be forced to look at those pictures.

                        And aside from your agreeing with gun safety regulations and disagreeing with the criminalization of abortion, I'm not seeing how you can say that gun-buyers should be forced to view pictures of dead children while not also defusing any argument you have against right-wingers' desire to force women seeking abortions to view gruesome pictures or ultrasounds.

                        "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." --Dom Helder Camara, archbishop of Recife

                        by JamesGG on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 02:06:00 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

          •  ken - it can't be "required" (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            annecros

            "let's talk about that"

            by VClib on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 09:51:39 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  I agree, but the key word is "adults" (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            zett

            It is hard to shield images in the mass media from children, who would be traumatized by them.  Not sure how to square the circle.

          •  I have a different solution. "Coverage" of these (9+ / 0-)

            events should include the words "MURDER" and "CRIMINAL" in EVERY reference to the shooter(s) -- NO EXCEPTIONS.

            NO more glamor. NONE. ZE-RO.

            Stop turning these crimes into sensations.

            Stop inciting copycats to try to top the last big mass murder.

            Stop giving the entire nation's entire emotional and intellectual effort to some twisted celebration of these cowards' mayhem.

            LBJ, Lady Bird, Anne Richards, Barbara Jordan, Sully Sullenberger, Ike, Drew Brees, Molly Ivins --Texas is no Bush league! -7.50,-5.59

            by BlackSheep1 on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 10:43:18 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  And they should be labeled "cowardly" (10+ / 0-)

              acts.   Because that's what they are.

              Those who are too cowardly to face up to a lifetime of work to make the world better.  Perhaps they cannot envision walking along picking up trash to make the world better, because they aren't brave enough to face the disdain for that "lowly" deed.  So they purchase "power" and would rather kill others.  Better to die quickly with "power" than to have the guts to spend a lifetime humbly working to make things better.  

              I've always felt that if murderers were labeled as cowards, it would make a difference in how many people died each year.

              "Because inside every old person is a young person wondering what happened." -Terry Pratchett

              by revsue on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 11:02:40 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  The problem with showing it (5+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            revsue, SadieSue, Neuroptimalian, VClib, zett

            is too many young kids unable to process it and deal with it would end up seeing it by accident, even with warnings and time to turn away. How many traumatized children afraid to go to school would we have as a result, especially in elementary grades? Yes, responsible parents could possibly prevent it, but what if the kid were watching the news in their room? What if the parent missed the warning because they're trying to cook dinner while listening to the news? And if we did this for all gun violence wouldn't it have a desensitizing effect like they are already complaining video games and movies are having?

            "Madness! Total and complete madness! This never would've happened if the humans hadn't started fighting one another!" Londo Mollari

            by FloridaSNMOM on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 10:47:32 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  not if it was limited (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              fumie, SilentBrook, NancyWH

              to those who want to purchase firearms.

              That is, the "forcing to look at" part. Otherwise, it's not enforceable. If you want to purchase a gun, legally--then as part of a required gun safety course, you should absolutely be required--forced, even--to see such pictures.

              If media wants to print or broadcast such things, then the usual warnings should suffice. If children see it by accident and are upset by it, that sucks, but what do you do when they see other things they shouldn't? You deal with it and then you move on.

              Our society is at stake here.
               

              It is time to #Occupy Media.

              by lunachickie on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 11:22:22 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  part of the licensing process... (4+ / 0-)

                that includes minimum @ hours of gun training, background check, demonstration of insurance and locked cabinet, legal purchase receipt, and whatever else is needed to demonstrate responsibility.

                "There's nothing serious about a plan that claims to reduce the deficit by spending a trillion dollars on tax cuts for millionaires and billionaires." - President Obama

                by fhcec on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 11:33:18 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Exactly (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  NancyWH

                  The drivers-ed analogy--having to see what car accidents can do to the human body--is a really good one. You want that license, you get to know the good and the bad.

                  Why in the hell do people want to argue against this? It's common sense.

                  It is time to #Occupy Media.

                  by lunachickie on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 12:45:48 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Driving isn't a constitutionally-protected right. (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    happymisanthropy

                    Every American doesn't have the right to a driver's license.

                    With reasonable restrictions from the state, every American does have the Constitutionally-protected right to own a firearm.

                    Every American also has the Constitutionally-protected right to an abortion.

                    What argument can you make for forcing those seeking to exercise their right to own a firearm to "get to know the good and the bad" by showing them gruesome pictures, that can't also be made for forcing those seeking to exercise their right to an abortion to "get to know the good and the bad" by showing them gruesome pictures of aborted fetuses?

                    "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." --Dom Helder Camara, archbishop of Recife

                    by JamesGG on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 01:16:38 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  oh, (0+ / 0-)

                      for fuck's sake. When will you just post without arguing, period?
                       

                      It is time to #Occupy Media.

                      by lunachickie on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 01:47:06 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  ummm... when we stop disagreeing? (0+ / 0-)

                        Or do you think that now that you have expressed your opinion, I am somehow obligated to acquiesce to it rather than continuing to make my case?

                        "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." --Dom Helder Camara, archbishop of Recife

                        by JamesGG on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 02:14:32 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                    •  I CAN have a gun (6+ / 0-)

                      I'm not REQUIRED to have a gun.

                      If I decide I want one, I should at the least be totally cognizant of the power of the weapon and what it can do.

                      Nobody MAKES me buy a gun. Just like nobody MAKES me drive a car.

                      •  Thank you! (0+ / 0-)


                         

                        It is time to #Occupy Media.

                        by lunachickie on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 01:57:34 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  That's a bit of a non-sequitur. (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        happymisanthropy

                        I'm not required to exercise my religion, speak out on political issues, or assemble with like-minded people—but that doesn't change the fact that those are Constitutionally-protected rights.

                        That nobody is required to own a gun or get an abortion, but that people can choose to do those things if they want to, also does not change the fact that those are Constitutionally-protected rights.

                        Driving is not considered a Constitutionally-protected right, and thus the state can require that drivers be licensed and set up processes for requiring drivers' education first.

                        The state cannot require that those who wish to join a church be licensed and undergo a religious-education process prior to being allowed to join a church, because the free exercise of religion is a right.

                        "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." --Dom Helder Camara, archbishop of Recife

                        by JamesGG on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 02:12:34 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  And if your religion mandates (6+ / 0-)

                          You sacrifice children, or smoke weed, think you'll be allowed to exercise your right?

                          I think not.

                          You can't slander people, or start a riot, either. So much for free speech. And just try having a parade or a protest without a permit. So much for the right to peaceably assemble.

                          No right is absolute. Not speech, not religion, and certainly not the right to own weapons.

                          •  Of course gun ownership isn't an absolute right... (0+ / 0-)

                            ...and you'll note that I don't argue anywhere that it is an absolute right.

                            What I do argue is that gun ownership is a Constitutionally-protected right, on the same level as freedom of speech and freedom of religion. As with speech and religion, the right to gun ownership is protected by the Constitution regardless of whether or not one decides to exercise that right.

                            A driver's license isn't understood to be a Constitutionally-protected right. Thus, there's a much higher legal bar to clear to implement new regulations on speech, religion, and gun ownership than there is for regulating automobile operation.

                            "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." --Dom Helder Camara, archbishop of Recife

                            by JamesGG on Fri Feb 08, 2013 at 07:22:32 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                •  I don't have a problem with (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  lunachickie

                  it being part of the licensing process, I must have misunderstood, I thought we were talking about showing it on TV. THAT I have a problem with, there are a lot of people out there with triggers, add in small kids, and you could be causing more harm than doing good.

                  "Madness! Total and complete madness! This never would've happened if the humans hadn't started fighting one another!" Londo Mollari

                  by FloridaSNMOM on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 01:56:53 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  no, you didn't misunderstand (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    FloridaSNMOM

                    I think I got kind of caught up in the moment of "should it be on tv or in print media" and was compelled to suggest it be done during licensing instead :)

                    It is time to #Occupy Media.

                    by lunachickie on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 02:00:34 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Thank you for the clarification (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      lunachickie, VClib

                      Then I stand by my statements. Required for licensing, yes. Put on TV where people who are not able to handle it could be confronted with it: no.

                      "Madness! Total and complete madness! This never would've happened if the humans hadn't started fighting one another!" Londo Mollari

                      by FloridaSNMOM on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 02:21:50 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I like the idea of it (0+ / 0-)

                        being on the telly--because really, it should be seen. But it's unworkable as a concept of deterrence because you can't force someone to watch it there.  It's pointless to do that at all if it's not required viewing.
                         

                        It is time to #Occupy Media.

                        by lunachickie on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 02:28:21 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  for some people it is the only means to access (0+ / 0-)

                        and for point of comparison there were people who objected to pictures of the violence unleashed against civil rights protestors in he 50s and 60s on the grounds that it upset them

                        again, TV often gives a warning when about to show something graphic.  I believe that would be appropriate and sufficient in this case.

                        "We didn't set out to save the world; we set out to wonder how other people are doing and to reflect on how our actions affect other people's hearts." - Pema Chodron

                        by teacherken on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 04:13:49 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

            •  FloridaSNMOM - very good point that I had (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              FloridaSNMOM

              not thought of. Thanks.

              "let's talk about that"

              by VClib on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 02:41:14 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  sounds right - (0+ / 0-)

            after all they're trying to force women to view transvaginal ultrasounds - whether or not they want to - if they're contemplating abortion.  Why not require those die hard assault weapon advocates to view what an assault weapon can do and does do when it is so freely available?

    •  The thing about sight is that images can (7+ / 0-)

      be shut out by closing one's eyes.
      Hearing is different. It is virtually impossible to shut out sound, which is why the right to make it has to be asserted. The temptation to shut people up is always very strong. :)

      We organize governments to deliver services and prevent abuse.

      by hannah on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 09:28:46 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  If that were true (0+ / 0-)

      We would have had tight gun controls already years ago

      Hay hombres que luchan un dia, y son buenos Hay otros que luchan un año, y son mejores Hay quienes luchan muchos años, y son muy buenos. Pero hay los que luchan toda la vida. Esos son los imprescendibles.

      by Mindful Nature on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 03:28:29 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  We do sanitize an event like this too much so (14+ / 0-)

    that the reality is a mere figment of the actual event and then the issue tends to lose steam of legislative change.  But is looks like this will be different because we are not letting go of this issues and this post again gets us to deal with it if we support the premise of forcing people to see the slaughtered body of Noah Posner or not.  My prayer go out to Noah and his family and community and myself.

  •  While I am supportive of your position... (6+ / 0-)

    ...in favor of stronger gun safety regulations, I find this post somewhat problematic in the assumption that the strong emotions evoked by a gruesome photograph should take precedence over reason and information in making policy decisions.

    That's the same line of thinking that leads those who want to criminalize abortion to put up public displays featuring gruesome photographs of aborted fetuses.

    As with this post, the thinking is that if you find those pictures so revolting, you should necessarily want to do something about it.

    Let me restate that I don't oppose gun safety regulations, and think we need universal background checks and restrictions on military-style weapons.

    But it seems to me that if we advocate this tactic here, we validate the anti-choicers' use of the same tactic in their effort to do away with reproductive rights.

    "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." --Dom Helder Camara, archbishop of Recife

    by JamesGG on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 09:01:02 AM PST

    •  I am not saying anything about precedence (30+ / 0-)

      but I will tell you that advances in social legislation came about less because of reasoned argumentation and more  because people were shocked

      that in part was the lesson of the Civil Rights Movement, including Birmingham and Selma

      it is already part of the impact of the events of12/14

      but too many are still NOT confronting the reality

      we hear about 11 wounds to one small body from an assault weapon with no useful purpose except to kill full-sized adults with a single round.

      We may grasp that intellectually, but we do not fully comprehend.

      If his parents are willing to make the image available we should see it.

      that is what Emmett Till's mother decided, and it had an impact.

      "We didn't set out to save the world; we set out to wonder how other people are doing and to reflect on how our actions affect other people's hearts." - Pema Chodron

      by teacherken on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 09:10:30 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I understand your point... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        VClib, annecros

        ...and I can see the appeal of seeing the children shot at Newtown as latter-day Emmett Tills, whose gruesome murders lead to policy change.

        Unfortunately, those who favor the criminalization of abortion also see the fetuses pictured in their gruesome displays as latter-day Emmett Tills, with those pictures leading to policy change. They too say that those who favor reproductive rights aren't "confronting the reality" of abortion, that we "grasp that intellectually, but we do not fully comprehend."

        What differentiates your desire to publicly display these children's mutilated bodies as a means of shocking people into changing their opinions, and abortion-criminalizers' display of aborted fetuses as a means of shocking people into changing their opinions?

        That's why I find this line of argument somewhat problematic, despite my agreement with your advocacy for more gun safety regulations.

        "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." --Dom Helder Camara, archbishop of Recife

        by JamesGG on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 09:28:24 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I suppose the difference (11+ / 0-)

          is that there are not 1,000,000 sterilized images presented to Americans in the form of fun and exciting realistic abortion video games and millions of dollars of special effects for this summer's blockbuster abortion movie or the new scary movie aimed directly at teens that shows a dozen creatively gruesome super-realistic different methods to have all kinds of horrible abortions.

          What the anti-choice hatemongers do not understand is that everyone understands exactly what abortion is and NO ONE likes to imagine or fantasize about situations where they might be able to get one or play games pretending to have 20 or 30 of them.

          We get it.  Abortions are tragic.  We know this.  They don't accept that, but we do.

          Now, as for killing.....?

          Красота спасет мир --F. Dostoevsky

          by Wisper on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 09:46:30 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  They don't think you do. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            BlackSheep1, Wisper
            We get it.  Abortions are tragic.  We know this.  They don't accept that, but we do.
            To their minds, if you really and truly "got" what abortions are like, then you wouldn't oppose criminalizing them—just as many here are arguing that if those who advocate AR-15s remaining legal really and truly "got" what happened to Noah Pozner's body, they would support making them illegal.

            Even if there aren't abortion video games, those who favor the criminalization of abortion think that the true effect of abortion is minimized just the same as many in this thread are arguing that the true effect of murder is minimized. To their minds, there may not be 1,000,000 sterilized images of abortion being presented to Americans each year, but there are 1,000,000 babies being murdered without it even being called murder. (Please note again, for the record, that I'm not agreeing with them or their views in the slightest.)

            They also think that those who want to keep abortion legal simply don't understand the effects of what they're advocating, in the same way that many in this thread are arguing that those who want to keep AR-15s legal simply don't understand the effects of what they're advocating.

            "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." --Dom Helder Camara, archbishop of Recife

            by JamesGG on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 09:56:56 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  My point was to the visualiztion (8+ / 0-)

              I have no personal experience with abortion.  For one thing I am male, but furthermore I've never had to deal with this with a girlfriend or wife.

              And yet... I understand, I truly understand what abortion is.  The question is that I see it as a personal legal issue related to privacy and health care.  That opinion, as wrong as they think it is, is not one to be swayed by a visual image.  I am not opposed to abortion bans, as I would argue is true for virtually everyone, because I don't think its a big deal or that its some kind of minor procedure.

              But when we hear people, in their own words, talk about the need for larger weapons because presumably smaller weapons would not adequately protect them.  When they articulate the need to be able to fire 100 bullets, at an unrestricted rate of fire, because firing a few is simply not enough... THEN I see great value to show them what "not enough" and "inadequate" does to the flesh of a human being.

              It counters their argument directly.  And if they want to look at that and then try to make the argument that this is a price they are willing to pay for their FREEDOMZ then the argument, or what argument there is left to have, can proceed from there.

              Красота спасет мир --F. Dostoevsky

              by Wisper on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 10:15:41 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  They would say the same thing to you. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Wisper
                But when we hear people, in their own words, talk about the need for larger weapons because presumably smaller weapons would not adequately protect them.  When they articulate the need to be able to fire 100 bullets, at an unrestricted rate of fire, because firing a few is simply not enough... THEN I see great value to show them what "not enough" and "inadequate" does to the flesh of a human being.
                And they would say that when they hear people, in their own words, talk about having a right to get an abortion or needing to get an abortion, they see great value in showing them what that abortion does to a fetus, which they see as a full-fledged human being.

                Just as you imply that if opponents of all gun restrictions truly knew "what 'not enough' and 'inadequate' does to the flesh of a human being" they would change their opinion on gun restrictions, so those who favor criminalizing abortion would say that if supporters of legal abortion truly understood what abortion was like, they would change their opinion on abortion.

                To the minds of those who favor criminalizing abortion, as with your implication, the fact that your/their hypothetical interlocutor persists in taking an opposing view on the issue is, in itself, sufficient evidence that the interlocutor doesn't really and truly understand the effects of their position, and thus needs to be reminded.

                "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." --Dom Helder Camara, archbishop of Recife

                by JamesGG on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 10:28:04 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  James, you are parroting (9+ / 0-)

                  The point is that there is no countervailing presentation of sanitized abortions.  There is no general sentiment to contradict.  NO ONE is out there pumping out millions of images, songs, messages, news, movies, and games talking about how fun and cool abortion is.  Their gruesome images are only underscoring an already accepted point:  Abortion is gruesome.

                  This is why they NEVER want to have arguments about out-of-womb viability, constitutional rights, health care precedents, realistic exceptions about rape and incest.  Their argument is that we don't understand the BELIEF about the sacredness of life.  We don't accept what their faith in God tells them is TRUE.  And TRUE in a sacred sense that is not amenable to parsing or nuance. IT must be ALWAYS TRUE FOR EVERYONE.  Trying to debate or rationalize LIFE (LIFE!!!) only reinforces what they think is their entire point.

                  What we are saying here is that these people that like to casually talk about gun death, that like to marginalize it to things that only happen to bad people like drug dealers or are only done be a few deranged psychopaths need to be corrected.  That is factually wrong.  We do not want them to understand our faith.  We do not want them to believe in the things we believe.  We want them to see the evidence that what they are talking about is WRONG.

                  When someone says they need an assault weapon with a 30-round clip because the legal 10-bullet 9mm handgun is not enough should take a look at what an untrained shooter can do to a human body with a 10-bullet 9mm handgun.

                  When they say we are seeking to ban a semi-automatic AR15 rifle firing .223 caliber bullets with a 3200ft/s muzzle velocity and a realistic rate of fire of 45-55 bullets per minute (or with a bump fire attachable stock, you could get 12 bullets per second if the barrel didnt overheat) just because we think they are a "scary looking gun" and not an actual threat then they should take a good long look at Noah Pozner .

                  Красота спасет мир --F. Dostoevsky

                  by Wisper on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 10:44:19 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

      •  well, we should see what these guns do (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        NancyWH, lotlizard

        to people in "authorized" situations as well.

        Just as we should see the results of land mines that maim children around the world.

        "There's nothing serious about a plan that claims to reduce the deficit by spending a trillion dollars on tax cuts for millionaires and billionaires." - President Obama

        by fhcec on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 11:36:17 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Problem is (0+ / 0-)

      Reason and evidence stopped being relevant in US policy making a long time ago.  Random emotion is its only currency now

      Hay hombres que luchan un dia, y son buenos Hay otros que luchan un año, y son mejores Hay quienes luchan muchos años, y son muy buenos. Pero hay los que luchan toda la vida. Esos son los imprescendibles.

      by Mindful Nature on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 03:31:01 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  The millions who play violent video witness these (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Neuroptimalian

    images every time they pull their virtual triggers. Graphic illustrations of carnage haven't prevented wars so why do you think they will have an impact on preventing gun violence?

    "If the past sits in judgment on the present, the future will be lost." Winston Churchill

    by Kvetchnrelease on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 09:04:18 AM PST

  •  Ok, for the 3rd time, here's a pic of an M-16 (15+ / 0-)

    wound to an adult.

    Same gun and ammo, basically, as an AR-15 although perhaps there are more "effective" civilian bullets available for the AR-15.

    One thing you should note, though- the bullet achieves this level of destruction by tumbling after penetrating. One poster on the link was one of the medical personnel who treated the victim. Another stated that the bullet in such a case needs about 2.5 inches of tissue penetration (much less if it strikes bone first) before it starts tumbling and fragmenting, after which point it will create the destruction seen in the picture. Also, the impact shock can break bones some distance from the bullet track.

    I think we can all use our imaginations from here. While each individual wound would probably vary greatly from the "perfect" example of M16 bullet performance presented here, given several wounds per victim, well, you supply the rest.

    Please read the whole link, it has a lot of information that I haven't seen in all that many places.

    Sorry about the graphic nature of the image, but really I think we don't have to make any more ridiculous calls for releasing pictures of the New Town victims.

    This is the only M16 wound I have been able to find on the web, I guess the version of HIPAA they have in the Philippines is rather lax.

    Moderation in most things.

    by billmosby on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 09:05:14 AM PST

    •  The children at Newtown had no choice to be the (6+ / 0-)

      targets in that atrocity. I think it's fully appropriate that a society that FAILED them in every way should be made to endure the true nature of that day and absorb it like those kids' little bodies absorbed those bullets; to let the true nature of that atrocity sink in, like the bullets that sunk into their little bodies.

      What happened at Newtown was an atrocity. Society as a whole failed those kids and society as a whole should bear the full burden.

      •  The parents have the say as to whether (8+ / 0-)

        pictures of their childrens' bodies should remain private or not.

        There are many reasons why they might choose not to release them- a desire not to set back their own emotional processes, a desire not to subject siblings and friends of the children to the pictures, a desire not to be further used as pawns, and probably many other reasons I can't think of at the moment. Even asking them or publicly suggesting in a well-known forum that pictures be released is going too far in my opinion, it has to place an additional emotional burden on them that is totally unhelpful.

        If they want to be a part of the process in that way, they will release them on their own.

        There are alternatives that can be used, rubbed in everybody's face, or what have you. I have presented this one, maybe others can be found.

        Moderation in most things.

        by billmosby on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 11:35:51 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  No. (0+ / 0-)

        Just no.

        These are children, not political tools.

        We have just enough religion to make us hate, but not enough to make us love one another. -- Jonathan Swift

        by raptavio on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 02:29:52 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  billmosby: thanks. (6+ / 0-)

      some comments in that thread indicate the person was shot by a cop with an M16A1. ("results of alcohol + cop + M16").

      HIPAA doesn't look violated to me in those photos: there's no individual-specific person shown (facial photograph, tattoos or jewelry). But it's been several years since I got out of public health.

      Here's a quote from the thread on specifics of that wound:

      Estimated range was between 5-10 meters. 20"-barreled M16A1 used. At that range, estimated velocity when bullet hit was @ 3200 feet per second.

      Entrance wound is on the inner thigh, exit is the huge stellate laceration seen on the outer thigh. Based on the xray view of the femur bone, bone was NOT hit, but broke most probably due to the temporary stretch cavity created by the considerable hydraulic shock wave the M193 cartridge is known to create.

      Pics # 5 and 6 show the typical fragmentation that occurs when the M193 bullet impacts human flesh at velocities in excess of 2700 fps.  Since my estimate here is that the velocity was @ 3200 fps, the size of the wound is not a surprise.

      Were this hit on the torso instead of the thigh, no reachee hospital. Go to morgue

      I can speak to what a .223 slug will do to some nonstandard targets.
      It basically obliterates a Jerry can half full of water, for example. It's not the size of the round; it's the speed of the impact.

      Velocity has a lot to do with the .223's effectiveness.

      I would imagine many of the Virginia Tech mass murderer's victims also had closed caskets.

      LBJ, Lady Bird, Anne Richards, Barbara Jordan, Sully Sullenberger, Ike, Drew Brees, Molly Ivins --Texas is no Bush league! -7.50,-5.59

      by BlackSheep1 on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 10:59:27 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  which is why I would focus on muzzle velocity (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        SilentBrook, NancyWH

        in any restrictions of weapons in civilian hands.  Forget things like folding stock or flash suppressors and focus on what really matters

        "We didn't set out to save the world; we set out to wonder how other people are doing and to reflect on how our actions affect other people's hearts." - Pema Chodron

        by teacherken on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 12:04:32 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Nothing too unique about (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          BlackSheep1

          the muzzle velocity of this round. Many hunting cartridges, and also what used to be called "full power battle rifle" rounds such as 7.62mm NATO, 30-06, 7.62x54R, etc develop muzzle velocities between 2500 and 3000 fps. Link

          From reading the link, anything over about 2000 fps will do similar damage. The only thing different about the .223 or 5.56mm is that the bullet is much more unstable in tissue than that if many other rounds, making the full jacketed bullet from this round as damaging as a hollow point or other enhanced stopping-power bullets of other cartridges.

          Pistol cartridges and other lower powered rounds do less damage the slower they are, but tend to make up for it with significantly increased bullet mass. They'll all disfigure and kill you.

          Getting rid of lethal muzzle velocities pretty much means getting rid of firearms, in my opinion.

          Or perhaps just limiting magazine capacity to 10 rounds or less.

          Moderation in most things.

          by billmosby on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 04:01:58 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Okay since you want to get into details (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            billmosby

            about ballistics

            some combination of muzzle velocity and what you describe as the instability of the round upon impact

            and for some reason I think a clip from the film The Magic Christian is appropriate here:

            "We didn't set out to save the world; we set out to wonder how other people are doing and to reflect on how our actions affect other people's hearts." - Pema Chodron

            by teacherken on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 04:26:39 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Sellers. One of my all time favorites. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              BlackSheep1

              I can never decide: Lionel Mandrake, or Jacques Clouseau.

              As for the ballistics, it's just another reason why an assault rifle ban, and especially all this talk about AR-15s, is just a small part of the real problem.

              Of course, given the difficulty of an effective firearms ban, which would probably require repealing the 2nd amendment, I can understand why people are going for what they can get.

              But it will most likely turn out to be that all the sound and fury will signify nearly nothing.

              A large magazine ban would be the best part of it, but then they aren't even talking about getting existing ones off the street in any national bill except over a long period of time.

              Ok though, I guess we have to start somewhere after all.

              Moderation in most things.

              by billmosby on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 04:42:28 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

  •  I understand the reluctance of some (14+ / 0-)

    I wouldn't want to see what the bullets did to a once-beautiful, living, engaging child. I remember photographs from the Civil War; the soldiers were so crumpled in death. At the beginning of the war in Afghanistan, it was a similar impression.

    What made a lasting impression for me was seeing the crime photos of my son's dead friend. Chris' expressive, rubbery face now looked like a latex mask that had been discarded. All the life had sunken from it, leaving little color, nothing shiny, no sparkle in his dead eyes.

    For those of us who loved Chris, it was shocking to see him that way. We saw the holes that buck-shot made in his torso. The ME testified how his liver had been obliterated. He had been a healthy, energetic young man, and now was reduced to something you see dead on the side of the road.

    It's an obscenity, what a violent death does to a living being. I can understand why the mother wanted everyone to see.

  •  100% Agree Ken (16+ / 0-)

    My comment was right above yours in that diary:

     

     In his coffin, there was a cloth placed over the lower part of his face.

        “There was no mouth left,” his mother told the Forward. “His jaw was blown away.”

        She put a stone in his right hand, a “clear plastic rock with a white angel inside.” She wanted to put a matching stone in his left hand but he had no left hand to speak of.

    6-years old.  

     

     When the governor of Connecticut arrived, she brought him to see Noah in the open casket. “If there is ever a piece of legislation that comes across his desk, I needed it to be real for him.” The governor wept.
    Wept.  ...as should we all.  

    The Right Wing and RKBA clowns want to push "gun safety education" as a solution, fine: push it.  When I went to driver safety education we were shown images of car wrecks from drunk-driving accidents.  Pro-Life knuckle-draggers like to try to make mothers look at pictures of their fetus.  

    You want to take a gun saftey class... you should have to look at Noah Pozner and others of the THOUSANDS OF CHILDREN your "hobby" puts in the ground.  

    Look at him.  And weep with us.

    Красота спасет мир --F. Dostoevsky

    by Wisper on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 09:38:33 AM PST

  •  As a side note my diary earlier today is related (5+ / 0-)

    perhaps you might want to look at Hip-Hop Speaks to the Guns

    "We didn't set out to save the world; we set out to wonder how other people are doing and to reflect on how our actions affect other people's hearts." - Pema Chodron

    by teacherken on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 09:48:23 AM PST

  •  The carnage continues and the gun Cult says that (11+ / 0-)

    showing the carnage is unreasonable.  What is unreasonable is that one person gets shot every 5 minutes and we just shrug it off because the NRA owns Congress and nothing can get done.  How many more Noahs will be sacrificed at the altar of the gun Cult before we get sensible firearm regulations passed by Congress?

    Then they came for me - and by that time there was nobody left to speak up.

    by DefendOurConstitution on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 09:53:36 AM PST

    •  Perhaps this has already been said (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      DefendOurConstitution, lotlizard

      and I am sure it has been said before, but this -- for me -- is part of  a larger pattern in our culture of attempting to hide or sanitize the effects of real violence.

      Fake violence is all well and good (and I am not for banning or blaming movies or video games for violence, but I do believe it plays a role in training people to accept horrific acts as being the norm. yeah that seems like a contradiction, but it will take me much longer than reply to a diary to explain what I mean) but, again, the effects of real violence must be hidden. And this is especially true when it happens to Americans. By this I am referring to citizens no longer being able to see the coffins of soldiers that are killed in our wars.

    •  This member of the gun cult doesn't think it's (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Miss Blue, NancyWH, VTCC73, SwedishJewfish

      unreasonable.

      Fwiw.

      YES WE DID -- AGAIN. FOUR MORE YEARS.

      by raincrow on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 11:22:24 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I got caught behind a school (29+ / 0-)

    bus the other day. This was a bus full of either kindergarteners or first graders.
    They were tiny little people rushing across the street to moms' (mainly moms) waiting arms.
    Or taking their own sweet time to count each step across the street. Looking neither left nor right. One little girl kept twirling all the way from the steps of the bus to her car.
    Usually I get very impatient when I am caught behind a school bus. It can be very  trying when you are  going somewhere, already.
    Last week, I very patiently followed behind the bus and waited at a respectable distance for every stop it made.
    I thought of the Sandy Hook babies. I thought of the little boy who wanted to attack the gunman because he "knew karate."
    Children don't know that "karate" is no match for guns. Little bodies were not made to withstand that which was specifically made to destroy life.
    I realized I was crying when I heard a strange noise coming from inside the car. My sobs.

    Yes, the carnage should have been made public.

    Maya Angelou: "Without courage, we cannot practice any other virtue with consistency. We can't be kind, true, merciful, generous, or honest."

    by JoanMar on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 09:58:22 AM PST

    •  My son (14+ / 0-)

      who is now 4, thinks he can "protect" daddy so I know exactly what you mean about the child who "knew karate." For my son it is just a game, a child seeing himself as a hero. Before Sandy Hook I would smile and laugh when my son said he would protect me. Now I just feel heartbroken that the sweet words of an innocent child were spoken in an unspeakable, unthinkable, situation.

    •  Joan - made public with the permission (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      JoanMar

      of each parent regarding pictures of their deceased children?

      "let's talk about that"

      by VClib on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 02:48:55 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yes. Only with the parent's permission. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        VClib

        You agree?

        Maya Angelou: "Without courage, we cannot practice any other virtue with consistency. We can't be kind, true, merciful, generous, or honest."

        by JoanMar on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 07:26:00 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  nor do I disagree with parental desire (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          VClib, JoanMar

          I happen to think that some parents would be willing if it could make a difference

          "We didn't set out to save the world; we set out to wonder how other people are doing and to reflect on how our actions affect other people's hearts." - Pema Chodron

          by teacherken on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 09:02:02 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Yes, this is the parents call in my view (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          JoanMar

          If the pictures are made public I don't think you will see any channel broadcast them on television, but they will be widely available on the Internet.

          One of the other comments regarding broadcasting these pictures made a good point. Regardless of what warning precedes them, some young children will see the pictures if they are televised. The pictures may make the children reluctant to go to school or effect their behavior at school.
          Putting them on the Internet makes the pictures easier to monitor, and fewer children will see them.

          "let's talk about that"

          by VClib on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 10:14:34 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  It's been almost two months (6+ / 0-)

    and I still cry almost every day over the murder of 20 first graders.

    When I say goodbye to my son every morning as he walks the to school bus, I think about all those parents who told their babies to have a good day at school that day and then never saw them again--just so the NRA can destroy this country with their love of mass murder.

    The fact that we can't seem to get any kind of reasonable gun safety laws on the books at the federal level makes me afraid for my children.  We're supposedly the greatest nation on Earth and we can't stop the murder in our streets and in our homes and in our schools?

  •  "America" needs to see the "real" horror (5+ / 0-)

    ...in order to snap out of its illusions.

    "America" must see REALITY IN ITS FULL HORROR in order to wake up.

    How is it that we have lost all decency and our humanity so much that we cannot even be awakened in the face of 6 year olds' faces being blown off? Buried in ground?

    6 years old!

    A baby 6 years old!!!!

    BURIED IN GROUND!!!!HALF OF HIS FACE BLOWN OF!!!?

    How is it?

    That this doesn't boil our blood?

    AND THAT WE CONTINUE TO EAT, SHIT AND YAMMER with a tongue as if it was a damned chicken that got murdered!!!??

    Huh?

    What kind of a demon is it that is controlling our hearts and souls that we cannot snap the hell out of it?

    Huh?

    --Thanks for posting this diary, Ken. The subject has been bugging me for a while.

    "Corruptio Optimi Pessima" (Corruption of the best is the worst)

    by zenox on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 10:54:41 AM PST

  •  Nice job focussing on (0+ / 0-)

    the weapon and what it does.   Hopefully some reasonable changes will be made regarding the weapons.   Shouldn't we be just as concerned about the deranged individuals wielding the weapons?    In many if not most of these cases there is a deranged human connected to the weapon.

    What do we do about them?  

    •  Like assault weapons, deranged shooters (7+ / 0-)

      are in reality a small part of the problem, according to somebody who monitors the flow of shootings, perps, and victims that occur steadily day in and day out by ones and twos.

      Most shooters are in reality just more or less highly pissed-off normal people with either more of an emotional hair-trigger than the rest of us, or somehow had a really, really bad day, or a combination.

      Which is to say there's really no stopping them because until and after their horrendous lapse of judgement, there's nothing abnormal about them to detect.

      Moderation in most things.

      by billmosby on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 11:56:45 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I used to clerk at a Criminal Defense firm... (14+ / 0-)

    that represented the worst of the worst.

    I am repeating this comment from the thread teacherken's originated from.

    Going through murder/abuse cases, looking at the horrific photos of dead (shot, stabbed, beaten) people and many times brutally injured victims (many of them children) takes a devastating toll on your psyche.  Needless to say, I did not last long there.

    When it's real, and you are looking at the terrible wounds of a child set in a boiling bath b/c his father thought he screamed too much, or the buried-in-a-shallow-grave body of a teenager killed for his sports jacket...you will be affected.

    Nothing you see on SVU or CSI can compare to the actuality of knowing that victim was once alive, or that they are now living with the effects of horrible wounds.

    If the parents wished it, the media should publish photos.  Look at them or don't, but they are a huge part of the tragedy that is missing from most of the sanitized mainstream conversation.

    Look at the ease with which one person can massacre dozens in minutes with such a weapon and such a large magazine.

  •  I agree that this should be seen (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    fumie, NancyWH, jayden

    but I don't want to and don't need to see.
    I already have bad enough images in my mind from the verbal descriptions that I feel traumatized by the shooting, personally. Having to look at it, to actually see would do me severe emotional damage.
    I have very carefully avoided exposing myself to violent imagery, all my life. It's why I don't watch Tv, why I haven't seen many of the "must see" movies of my generation, no matter how great they may be, how culturally significant. By the time my generation reached adulthood, they'd seen 18000 shootings on Tv. Bang, you're dead was a satisfactory end to too many story lines. It got people used to the idea (or more accurately, to a false idea of violence, one with minimal consequences).
    I am not inured to violent images because I have very carefully protected myself from them. When I have witnessed violence and the results (I've lived in very rough places) it takes a toll on me that can take years to recover from.
    And I don't need that as a motivator.
    I'm already quite motivated to finally get some gun regulation that will rein in the proliferation of slaughter weapons.
    If anyone needs to look into that casket, it should be the gunloons and their supporters. This is what they support and they need to be made to own it.

    If I ran this circus, things would be DIFFERENT!

    by CwV on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 11:19:22 AM PST

  •  Johnny Got His Gun (6+ / 0-)

    Dalton Trumbo explored the effects of the the knowledge of the impact of war on the populace in Johnny Got His Gun.  In the book, jonny discovered that all the people who cheered when he went away to fight a war didn't want to know what he looked like when he came home. The same is true, I think, with guns and the NRA.

    They don't want to know what really happens when their guns kill children!

    Dick Cheney said, "Pi$$ on 'em!" And, Ronald Reagan replied, "That's a Great Idea. Let's Call it 'Trickle Down Economics!"

    by NM Ray on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 11:28:37 AM PST

    •  there is a movie (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      SilentBrook, NancyWH, myboo, cpresley

      released in 1971 and starring Timothy Bottoms

      Johnny is faceless, cannot speak, but can communicate using Morse code

      he wants the world to see him

      I remember the film vividly

      of course, Trumbo had been blacklisted, and actually help break the black list when under the pseudonym Robert Rich he won the Oscar for Screenplay for Spartacus

      "We didn't set out to save the world; we set out to wonder how other people are doing and to reflect on how our actions affect other people's hearts." - Pema Chodron

      by teacherken on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 12:08:39 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  like in the movies (7+ / 0-)

    People think it's like in the movies, where bodies just get bloody and the person shot falls down.  People need to see to know; they think they know already from Die Hard.  They don't.  I don't.

  •  Let's not stoop to the mandatory ultrasound level. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Kickemout

    This is about the same level of sophistication as fundies wanting us to look at aborted fetuses.

    •  Fundamentalists (0+ / 0-)

      Fundamentalists often distort the facts surrounding photos of fetuses, often claiming more developed fetuses are actually younger, and often leaving out the medical reason for fetuses that have almost developed to term and died beforehand.

      I don't think Ken literally means people must be forced to look. He's most certainly not advocating that images should be viewed without the assent or knowledge of the families of the people depicted. What I think he means is that if people are not considering the plight of the victims and their families they should be challenged to do so in no uncertain terms. "Forced to look" is a term of art, a tool of poetic license, and as such should not be taken literally.

  •  Victim Jessica Rekos (7+ / 0-)

    was the daughter of a fellow Bridgeport, CT teacher

    and my school security guard's niece was  Victoria Soto, national heroine.

    This is getting very close to home. Our guard now sits at a desk facing the front door (instead of his cozy basement location) and now wonders if someone coming in will shoot him in the face.

    He, and we all are now possible dead heroes.

  •  Well, as a side comment, although I generally (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    happymisanthropy, lotlizard

    agree that such things bring home the reality far more than most, anyone who posts pictures of dead kids in I/P diaries or drone diaries tends to get HR'd into oblivion.  Not saying it's good or bad, it just is.

  •  I strongly disagree with you ken. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    zett

    For the same reason I despise when the pro-lifers who choose to express their views with graphic photos of mutilated fetuses, I despise the use of the violent photos of deceased people to make political points with which I am in agreement -- whether anti-war, anti-death penalty, or pro-gun control.

    Its value serves to shock, and appeal to the basest emotion, and it is, regardless of the original intention of the employer of the imagery, profoundly disrespectful to the deceased as it turns their broken bodies into political tools.

    We have just enough religion to make us hate, but not enough to make us love one another. -- Jonathan Swift

    by raptavio on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 02:24:25 PM PST

  •  No thanks, already seen (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    SwedishJewfish, RiveroftheWest, zett

    my fair share of those things. Learned about the horrors possible. seen videos of police shooting people dead. people in war zones holding their dead children. Industrial and government officials treating death as a statistic.

    I needn't see another dead child. My righteous indignation is already at maximum.

    But I do agree with your sentiment and your point. I just...don't need to see yet another dead child. Im barely able to hold out hope for humanity as it is.

    Of course, if seeing a huge number of people wanting to pay their respects at a funeral - or that is, a symbolic funeral. I don't want to see the families mourning being overshadowed by people - it might get peoples attention on a big scale.

    In that case, it would definitely be worth the effort.

    Im sad now, having trouble thinking of a way to finish this, so i'll just stop abruptly.

    "Rock is overpowered, but Paper is perfect." -Scissors

    by kamrom on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 02:27:52 PM PST

  •  Please read the blog of his grandmother... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mrblifil, SwedishJewfish, AnnetteK

    I started reading it when she wrote about bread (and she writes really well), but then she wrote about Noah Pozner and posted pictures until she ran out of them.  It is heartbreaking.

    www.farine-mc.com

    •  Oh wow...this is amazing (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      frosti, jayden

      thank you for sharing. She is a great writer...And Veronique is very eloquent in how she speaks, her descriptions are so vivid, I can tell she is a great writer as well.

      JMO but sometimes the visual picture created through writing can move people just as much if not more than a photograph. I do not need to see a photo of Noah Pozner, because the way his mother described him already creates that harrowing image in my mind.

      You must work-we must all work-to make a world that is worthy of its children -Pablo Casals Please support TREE Climbers for victims of child sexual abuse and exploitation.

      by SwedishJewfish on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 05:37:29 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Yes, I think this would (0+ / 0-)

    tip the balance strongly in favor of gun control.

  •  Talk is cheap (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mrblifil, JoanMar, greengemini, cpresley

    And it's never cheaper than when one can pontificate and never deal with the consequences of that pontification.  

    I was shocked to read some of the Newtown children were almost unrecognizable because of bullet wounds.  People should see the consequences of unregulated assault weapons.  People should understand what it means to defend the indefensible when one is confronted with the results.  People should see what an assault weapon can do to a human being.  It isn't a tidy, tv show"one clean shot to the head".  

    and if this gets me added to the NRA's enemy list, then I will claim that honor proudly.
    As FDR once said:  I welcome their hatred.  
  •  Three or four years ago........ (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    lotlizard

    When I was wandering around the Army Museum in London, they had a restricted exhibit of those that had received awful facial wounds in WWI, and the facial masks that were made to compensate.  A very sobering and disturbing experience.

    Be of good comfort, Master Ridley, and play the man; we shall this day light such a candle by God's grace in England as shall never be put out.

    by Bollox Ref on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 05:36:49 PM PST

  •  Task Force recommends (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    SwedishJewfish

    * Join: The Action: End the Bush Tax Cuts for Richest Two Percent * Addington's Perpwalk: TRAILHEAD of Accountability for Bush-2 Crimes.

    by greenbird on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 06:39:11 PM PST

  •  The Real Pro Life group (0+ / 0-)

    We could put the photos of the dead children on posters and parade in front of gun stores that carry these weapons

    We kidnap. We torture. It's our policy. Embrace it or end it!

    by Mosquito Pilot on Fri Feb 08, 2013 at 04:50:39 AM PST

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