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Delta airplane in the sky.
Air marshals and flight attendants are not happy about the TSA's decision to allow small knives onto airplanes. The decision covers knives with blades no longer than 2.36 inches and no wider than 1/2 inch, which do not lock and do not have a fixed grip. In addition to pocketknives, that would cover things like the blades on corkscrews. While these knives are smaller than what was allowed at the time of the 9/11 attacks, the flight attendants union and the air marshals association objected strongly:
"It's as if we didn't learn anything from 9/11," said George Randall Taylor, head of the air marshal unit of the Federal Law Enforcement Officers Association (FLEOA). "Flight attendants are going to be sitting ducks."
The flight attendants cite not just 9/11 but more regular challenges:
Sara Nelson, vice president of the Association of Flight Attendants, says they have to deal with "unruly passengers every day." She says flight attendants are an aircraft's "last line of defense," and says the new rule puts them "in a much more dangerous position."
Security experts say the changes are appropriate, and the items now allowed were already recommended to be allowed under non-binding standards from the U.N.'s International Civil Aviation Organization.

In addition to the small knives, passengers will be allowed to carry a range of sports equipment, including novelty baseball bats, billiard cues, ski poles, and up to two golf clubs. Bottles of shampoo or lotion larger than three ounces will still be prohibited.

Originally posted to Daily Kos Labor on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 09:01 AM PST.

Also republished by Daily Kos.

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Comment Preferences

  •  OK I Am Not Remotely A "Bad Ass" (7+ / 0-)

    but raised and been around a few folks that are. As a military brat around folks trained to kill folks. I am pretty sure with a knife that size they could inflict a lot a damage to a lot of people in very short order.

    Thank god I don't fly weekly like I used to before 9/11. If you can bring a knife on the plane, but I still can't have a small bottle of mouth wash in my bathroom kit .... well I don't even know what to say.

    When opportunity calls pick up the phone and give it directions to your house.

    by webranding on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 09:07:17 AM PST

    •  The biggest safety measure is reinforced cockpits (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      webranding, VClib, polecat, Orinoco, mungley

      There is not a lot you can do with a 2 inch blade if the cockpit crew are protected. The big difference between now and pre 9/11 is that even if passengers threatened cabin staff, if they can't get to the flight deck, they are limited in their actions.

      I don't know about you, but if two or three guys tried to take the plane with a 2 inch blade, I might be tempted to intervene. three tiny knives against 20 or 30 passengers isn't going to work.

      •  You are correct (4+ / 0-)

        that the cockpit is protected.  That's great.

        I don't understand though why the ONLY purpose for security precautions seems to revolve around terrorism or hijackings and not about general safety.  I am much more likely to encounter an abusive drunk or nutcase (I've encountered both many times in my 23 year career) and I'd prefer that person didn't have a knife either, even if it's intended purpose onboard isn't to take over an aircraft.

        The FAA can come on board an nitpick every move I make and fine me thousands of dollars for missing a page out of my manual or not enforcing those regulations no one likes to adhere to - but bringing an ACTUAL WEAPON onboard isn't a safety concern? It defies logic.

        •  Prior to 911 you could take a knife on a plane (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          peterfallow, polecat, Orinoco, ladybug53

          I have been a frequent flyer since the 1970s and have flown more than two million miles on commercial airlines. I just don't recall reading about many incidents with knives when it was legal to carry them. I always carried a very sharp small pocket knife with a 2" blade to cut up apples, and other whole fruits, to make them easier to eat in flight. I'll look forward to putting that small knife back in my briefcase.

          "let's talk about that"

          by VClib on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 09:36:38 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Pre 911, I always had a mini Swiss army knife (5+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            VClib, samanthab, polecat, Orinoco, ladybug53

            on my key chain. Must have had half a dozen confiscated before I gave up.

            •  And you'd have a hell of a time (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              peterfallow, ladybug53

              convincing the flight attendant you were serious about hijacking the plane by brandishing your Swiss army knife.

              While I am sure a trained commando could do a lot of damage with a pocket knife, a trained commando could probably do just as much damage with his bare hands. So its not so much the damage one can inflict, but the intimidation factor, allowing the hijacker to get compliance from crew and passengers.

              Pen knifes just aren't that intimidating. Straight razors? Yeah. Box cutters? Yeah. Surgical scalpels? Yeah. Swiss army knives? Oh, isn't it cute? Is that the one with the saw and the tweezers?

              Let's face it: TSA is security theater, corporate welfare and a jobs program for folks who live near airports. It is the "something" in the phrase "Don't just stand there, do something!" that our public officialdom was confronted with after 9/11. We should be more careful what we wish for.

              "The problems of incompetent, corrupt, corporatist government are incompetence, corruption and corporatism, not government." Jerome a Paris

              by Orinoco on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 11:48:42 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  A sharp 2" blade is a deadly weapon (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Sirenus, Orinoco, arabian

                Even if it has a cute Swiss cross logo.

                I don't think security check are theatre.

                Inconvenient, perhaps, but necessary in these times and accepted around the world.

                I frequently travel by air and cooperate for my own safety. If you are prepared, the inconvenience is minimized.

                What about my Daughter's future?

                by koNko on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 11:36:42 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  bahhhh...bahhhhh....bahhhh (2+ / 0-)

                  sheep are lovely critters.

                  Oregon: Sure...it's cold. But it's a damp cold.

                  by Keith930 on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 11:40:52 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  I'd like the "little knives don't count' crowd (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Subterranean, bimbels, arabian

                  to imagine being a 5'7' flght attendent bending over to put a glass on a passenger's tray and suddenly she's got a two-inch blade at her throat.

                  Sure, the attacker is not going to get into the cockpit. That will be all sorts of comfort to that attendent when she's bleeding out because her throat's been cut. Which you can do with a fully extended box opener. But it's just a flight attendent. Who cares if she, or he, loses an eye or has their check sliced to the bone, or has a bottle opener jammed into their shoulder? Big yawn.  Cheap labor.

                  Why does anyone need to bring any knife on board a plane?  Do we now have a knife-rights equivalent of the NRA somewhere defending Americans right to slice people open? What?

                  Freedom has two enemies: Those who want to control everyone around them...and those who feel no need to control themselves.

                  by Sirenus on Sat Mar 09, 2013 at 06:47:50 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Little knives don't count (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    happymisanthropy

                    but paranoid fantasies do?

                    I can't imagine attacking a flight attendant, 5' 7" or not, with my pocket knife. I literally can't imagine it. I've carried that handy tool in my pocket since I was seven years old, and never once in more years than I care to enumerate, have I thought about pulling it out to cut another person with.

                    Anyone psychotic enough to imagine such a thing could easily imagine some other way to do their cutting if denied a pocket knife. And none of the current TSA security theater keeps psychotic people off airplanes.  

                    Your sig line is interesting: a 5' 7" flight attendant seeking to control everyone around her faced with a psychotic attacker who feels no need to control himself. Freedom loses twice.

                    "The problems of incompetent, corrupt, corporatist government are incompetence, corruption and corporatism, not government." Jerome a Paris

                    by Orinoco on Sat Mar 09, 2013 at 07:17:30 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  How long were the blades on the box cutters? (4+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      blue drop, KayCeSF, Orinoco, arabian

                      Back on 9/11?

                      "We refuse to fight in a war started by men who refused to fight in a war." -freewayblogger

                      by Bisbonian on Sat Mar 09, 2013 at 12:42:58 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  It's not about the length (0+ / 0-)

                        or the damage it can inflict. If someone wants to control someone else, as in a hijacking or other dominance situation, it's about perception.

                        That is: is the victim scared enough of the perpetrator that the victim will comply with the perpetrator's demands? It doesn't matter if the perpetrator is a Saudi attempting an aircraft hijacking or a drunk from Deluth trying to get a waitress to give him another scotch.

                        As I mentioned earlier, because of what we have absorbed culturally, extremely sharp blades, such as straight razors, box cutters and scalpels, are intimidating when used as weapons. Scalpel blades are, I think, only about 3/4 of an inch long. But if the deranged psychotic in the slasher flick isn't chasing cheerleaders around a deserted mansion with an axe or a machete, he's likely carrying a scalpel or a straight razor. His grandfather's Barlow knife just wouldn't have the same dramatic effect.

                        While I don't have any statistics handy, I'd venture to say that the number of assults on flight attendants pre TSA with pocket knives were about on a par with assults by pencil, umbrella and rolled up flight magazines, and were vastly outnumbered by assaults with bare hands.  

                        "The problems of incompetent, corrupt, corporatist government are incompetence, corruption and corporatism, not government." Jerome a Paris

                        by Orinoco on Sat Mar 09, 2013 at 04:07:59 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                    •  I was a flight attendant ... (0+ / 0-)

                      I am 5'7...

                      I am fairly thin...

                      Maybe YOU can't imagine it, but I sure as hell as can.

                      We all made this journey for a reason. -- President Barack Obama (February 10, 2007)

                      by arabian on Sat Mar 09, 2013 at 09:27:38 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                •  nobody considered a 1 inch blade to be lethal... (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  arabian

                  ...but it was and now we have post 9-11 TSA.  will it take a passenger getting harmed by some whacknut for the "no knife" ban to be reinstated?  the ban should stay in place.  there is considerably less threat of me trying to carry ice cubes in a cold pack so i don't have to waste money on pricey, mediocre airport food but that ban remains in place.  stupidity.

                  I'm a blue drop in a red bucket.

                  by blue drop on Sat Mar 09, 2013 at 01:53:16 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

            •  me, too (4+ / 0-)

              They used to give us real knives with meals......

              Jesus died to save you from Yahweh.

              by nolagrl on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 08:37:20 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  yes, but (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            greengemini, samanthab, Eyesbright

            after the flight attendants and pilots were stabbed to death on 9/11, knives were banned and we all said "I can't believe they were ever allowed to begin with."

            maybe it didn't happen "much" but then it did happen and in a big way.  Normally when an incident happens we learn from it and enact rules accordingly.  

            Maybe we should invoke the "we need good guys with knives to stop the bad guys with knives" argument.

            •  That was not Swiss Army knives n/t (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              ladybug53, Victor Ward

              Freedom isn't free. Patriots pay taxes.

              by Dogs are fuzzy on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 08:34:00 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  Now let's talk about underwear bombers (0+ / 0-)

              ....or not.

              Jesus died to save you from Yahweh.

              by nolagrl on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 08:41:35 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  No one was stabbed to death on 9-11 (3+ / 0-)

              You can't stab someone to death with a box cutter.

              But more to the point, I don't think anyone had their carotid artery slashed on 9-11, either.

              Before 9-11, if a terrorist held a sharp object to a flight attendant's neck the pilots (who though the flight was simply being hijacked) would open the door to the flight deck.

              After 9-11, if a terrorist holds a sharp object to a flight attendant's neck, the pilots might fly you to Havana (escorted by F-16s, of course), but there's no way in hell they'll open the (now heavily reenforced) door to the flight deck.

              Nowadays, the ban against penknives on airplanes does nothing beyond protect against random violent assaults, which hasn't historically been a problem on US airlines.

              •  Someone BLED to death.... (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                arabian

                ....on Flight 93.  You can do THAT with a boxcutter.

                If you hate government, don't run for office in that government.

                by Bensdad on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 09:02:15 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  Wrong (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Dburn, Bisbonian

                Many people are killed or seriously injured with box cutters every year.

                Some get their throats cut ear to ear.

                What about my Daughter's future?

                by koNko on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 11:38:33 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  I didn't say otherwise. (0+ / 0-)

                  I recognize that someone can be killed or seriously injured with a box cutter. My point is that that hasn't historically been a problem on commercial flights.

                  •  Here's something you need to realize. (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    arabian

                    Things change.

                    Forty years ago, I worked as a security guard at Honolulu International. We weren't armed, we only checked carry on lugguage, we only had metal detector gates.  

                    But this was before shoe bombs, underwear bombs, plastic explosives and people who, instead of flying the aircraft to Havana, flew them into skyscrapers.

                    So let's be a little careful about using the word "historically" to imply that because something never has happened, it never could happen.

                    Freedom has two enemies: Those who want to control everyone around them...and those who feel no need to control themselves.

                    by Sirenus on Sat Mar 09, 2013 at 06:57:20 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  Uh, except on one spectacular day. (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    arabian

                    "We refuse to fight in a war started by men who refused to fight in a war." -freewayblogger

                    by Bisbonian on Sat Mar 09, 2013 at 12:45:38 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Read what I actually wrote. (0+ / 0-)

                      Because what happened on 9-11 wasn't that a couple people got stabbed on an airplane. It was terrorists were able to take control of a flight.

                      In the era of reenforced flight deck doors and pilots who won't open said doors under any circumstances, what is the unique danager that pen knives pose?

                  •  until it happened n/t (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    arabian

                    I'm a blue drop in a red bucket.

                    by blue drop on Sat Mar 09, 2013 at 01:56:39 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  When? (0+ / 0-)

                      9-11 wasn't the day that a bunch of people were injured with box cutters while flying. It was the day that four airplanes were hijacked using box cutters. That's no longer possible.

                      So what makes penknife on airplane more dangerous than a penknife on super shuttle to the airport?

              •  So having the flight attendant's throat cut (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Dburn, Bisbonian, arabian

                doesn't count?

                Nice.

                Freedom has two enemies: Those who want to control everyone around them...and those who feel no need to control themselves.

                by Sirenus on Sat Mar 09, 2013 at 06:49:42 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  We don't know exactly (0+ / 0-)

                  what tools they used to kill the crews on 9/11.  It is assumed that some of the terrorists had box cutters, and it is also known that a couple of the terrorists owned leatherman tools that were not found with their belongings after the events.

                  If you listen to Betty Ong's call to the ground on 9/11, she states that her purser and galley flight attendants were STABBED.  Those were her words.  Regardless, plenty of damage can be done with a small pocket knife if the victim isn't ready for it - or, like me, is 5'3" and 110 lbs and trying to fend off a nut job.  I'm sure I will have the help of other passengers - but why let the nuts have weapons, too?  And before you go on about my paranoid fantasies, I've had 3 instances of violent behavior on flights in my 23 years (and another instance of a pax having a mental break that didn't come to violence but was scary all the same.) Thankfully those instances "only" involved my fellow crewmembers being assaulted with the perpetrator's bare hands.  

                  I do not agree with the logic that just because they are "small" knives, they don't matter.  Nor do I agree with the logic that so many other things can be used as weapons, so why not let ACTUAL weapons on board. Why make it easier for those who would do harm?

                •  You are deliberately misstating what I said (0+ / 0-)

                  What is the problem that the ban on pocketknives addresses today? Because it's no longer necessary to protect against flights being highjacked.

                  It can somewhat reduce the risk of a flight attendant or other passenger being seriously injured. But how often does that happen, except as part of a highjacking, which, due to other measures, is now bound to fail?

                  What reason is there to believe that seemingly random violent acts will become a problem on flights if the ban is lifted?

        •  Ignoring the terrorist security theatre (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Joe Bob, ladybug53

          you are more likely to encounter a belligerent drunk on a sidewalk than on a plane, and in the US he is more likely carrying a gun than a 2 inch knife.

          As for planes, after a 25 year career in international business ( which included one flight diverted because of a bomb threat in mid air), I have never seen an out of control person on a plane in flight. I have seen a few removed before takeoff, but never in flight.

          •  How do you know what this person's (0+ / 0-)

            encountered? If you've never seen an out of control person on a flight, you've been lucky. Pragmatic decisions aren't based on one person's luck.

            •  I made no comment on what he has seen. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              ladybug53

              Please read carefully - I said you (generic not specific) are more likely to encounter a drunk on a sidewalk than in a plane.

              Speaking from my own experience, I have encountered hundreds of drunks on sidewalks, outside bars,inside bars and elsewhere. Does this make me unlucky?

              •  When you work on an airplane (4+ / 0-)

                You are more likely to encounter a variety of situations including drunks and crazies that even million miler passengers may never see.  

                In my 23 years as a FA I have personally had 2 violent drunk/drug flip outs and 2 mental breakdowns (one violent, one not.)

                Then there are the incidents I personally know of because they happened to my friends or were a big deal and my airline.

                So just because you've never seen it doesn't mean it doesn't happen and if it does, I prefer they not have a knife.  Could they use a number of other objects as a weapon? Yes.  But lets not make it any easier for them.  Maybe a knife is their weapon of choice.

                I suppose since I'm a flight attendant I have a different perspective since flight attendants that were stabbed on 9/11.

                Betty Ong was crew on flight 11.  Here is her call to the ground after they were hijacked.

                https://www.youtube.com/...

                I know this won't happen again because of the cockpit security and passenger intervention. But my job is overall safety and that now includes dealing with potential knife wielding psychos. I guess my security training will be a little more multilayered starting next year.

                •  Sorry, I don't think this is true (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Rick Aucoin, rabel, Sparhawk
                  When you work on an airplane
                  You are more likely to encounter a variety of situations including drunks and crazies that even million miler passengers may never see.
                  Maybe you mean that you're more likely to have seen this type of behavior on an airplane that the rest of us, but I'm pretty sure you can be stabbed by a "knife wielding psycho" in pretty much any day-to-day situation you can think of...taxi, bus, school, work, grocery store, walk in the park, etc.

                  Your risk of that happening on a plane as a flight attendant is probably no more (and I would guess even less) than any of the rest of us face in our day-to-day activities. Short of banning all knives, how are you going to prevent that?

                  FAA regulations on weapons aren't meant to protect individual attendants or passengers simply because they're on a plane. They're intended to stop people from taking control of (or destroying) a plane full of people.

                  •  The difference (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    bimbels

                    Is that it's a whole lot harder to run from a knife wielding psycho on an airplane.

                    What about my Daughter's future?

                    by koNko on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 11:41:07 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  Short of banning all knives? (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    bimbels

                    Isn't that what we're talking about?

                    Tell me, just why does a passenger need a two-inch knife on a plane? They can't go two hours without whittling? They need a knife to clean their fingernails? They have an apple in their pocket that needs to be peeled?

                    I just can't get over the comments on this thread that seem to imply that as long as a violent nutcase can't get control of the plane, it's just fine if he has a knife.

                    The safety of the flight crew and other passengers be damned?

                    Freedom has two enemies: Those who want to control everyone around them...and those who feel no need to control themselves.

                    by Sirenus on Sat Mar 09, 2013 at 07:05:38 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  I fly about 400,000 miles a year, (0+ / 0-)

                    And have been flying commercially for 20 years.  Do the math.  You don't think I might see a little more than some "million miler"?

                    "We refuse to fight in a war started by men who refused to fight in a war." -freewayblogger

                    by Bisbonian on Sat Mar 09, 2013 at 12:48:35 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  yes, I meant (0+ / 0-)

                    that if you work on a plane you are more likely to see those situations on a plane - it was in response to an earlier post by someone here who said that he's flown millions of miles and has never had an irate passenger on one of his flights.

                    I understand the intent of regulations on weapons.  I just don't happen to agree with the sole reason of that intent.  

              •  Unlucky? No. But maybe you should stay away (0+ / 0-)

                from bars.

                Hundreds of drunks? Wow.

                Freedom has two enemies: Those who want to control everyone around them...and those who feel no need to control themselves.

                by Sirenus on Sat Mar 09, 2013 at 07:00:45 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

      •  Well, that and... (4+ / 0-)

        The 9/11 hijackers broke the social convent of the action.  Namely, if you cooperate and give into my demands, you will get out of this alive.  Now that the social contract has been broken, people will rush a hijacker, even if he has a knife or gun.

        'Guns don't kill people, video games do - paraphrased from Lamar Alexander (Sen-R-TN)'

        by RichM on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 10:11:58 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  The half life of this tactic (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ladybug53

          was from the time the third plane was hijacked until Flight 93.  No one wielding a knife or any other weapon is going to succeed against an entire flight full of passengers since they know assume they will die anyway, so why not take a shot at stopping it.  Ask Richard Reid how well that worked out for him.

        •  Rush a hijacker. And likely get seriously injured (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          bimbels, arabian

          or killed.

          I'll say it again....this is a crazy thread. All these people posting comments that seem to imply that as long as the flight deck is secure, everything is fine.

          Freedom has two enemies: Those who want to control everyone around them...and those who feel no need to control themselves.

          by Sirenus on Sat Mar 09, 2013 at 07:07:43 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I know, right?! (0+ / 0-)

            Crazy is the right word.  I was a flight attendant so this hits a little close to home.

            Seriously, I'm mindboggled at some of these comments.

            We all made this journey for a reason. -- President Barack Obama (February 10, 2007)

            by arabian on Sat Mar 09, 2013 at 11:00:28 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  Still stupid move. Blade on box cutter is 1 inch (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Sirenus, Bisbonian

        fully extended
        and that is sure part of the 9-11 story

        So they can't get the pilot now and so all is well?
        It is stupid, tone deaf

        •  So what can they do? (4+ / 0-)

          The flight deck is secured and a 2 inch blade isn't going to grant you entry to it or they wouldn't allow them on board.

          So you're a bad guy with a 2 inch blade in a confined space with a bunch of other people. You could do this on a bus, a train, in a shopping mall, at a school, place of business...  There's nothing unique about it happening on the airplane when the flight deck is secure and you're just another maniac with a tiny little knife. You're not going to crash the plane, you're not going to hurt anyone other than the people in there with you and they're going to fight back and they're going to take your little knife away and probably beat the every loving shit out of you. Can this person stab some hapless flight attendant or passenger? Sure, but that can happen at Bennigan's any night of the week.

          There isn't an argument against allowing little knives on planes that doesn't apply to little knives on any other form of public transport or confined area with many people in it. So you want to ban 2" knives everywhere in public? Seriously? Live in fear 24h a day whenever we're in public and lock ourselves up tight in our houses with our shotguns at our sides at the ready. I'm not living like that.

          [Terrorists] are a dime a dozen, they are all over the world and for every one we lock up there will be three to take his place. --Digby

          by rabel on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 09:11:14 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  also remember that the rest of the world (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            ladybug53, happymisanthropy

            already allows the small knives as quoted in the article

          •  Might I point out one tiny flaw in your argument? (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            arabian

            In almost any other situation, if a guy with a knife shows up, you can run away.

            Out of the bar. Out of the building. Even a bus can be stopped and the doors opened.

            You can't run away in an airplane. The police won't arrive in ten minutes in an airplane.

            And really?  The woman sitting next to this nut, possibly in the window seat, is going to simply take the knife away from him?  A "bunch of people" are going to be able to reach this guy to "beat him up"?  Do you alway fly first class?  Because you seem to have no idea how restricted movement can be in Coach. One food cart in the aisle and you can only "reach" this man by climbing over the seats....and the passengers in them.  

            All it takes is that one guy slicing that knife against the throat of a seated, seat-belted passenger next to him and someone is dead. Does that count with you?

            We're talking real life, not some damn Bruce Willis movie.

            Freedom has two enemies: Those who want to control everyone around them...and those who feel no need to control themselves.

            by Sirenus on Sat Mar 09, 2013 at 07:17:03 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  It sucks but it sucks everywhere (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              happymisanthropy

              You're completely missing the point. A crazed, knife-wielding maniac can  slice their knife against the throat of someone sitting at a diner or at the gas station or at the movie theater where it's dark and spooky.

              There's nothing unique about these little blades in a plane vs anywhere else.

              STOP BEING AFRAID.

              [Terrorists] are a dime a dozen, they are all over the world and for every one we lock up there will be three to take his place. --Digby

              by rabel on Sat Mar 09, 2013 at 07:44:12 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I'm not afraid. I'm practical. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                arabian

                We already scan for all sorts of dangerous "carry ons."

                Why now say that knives are okay?  A plane is not like anything else. You need for people to feel very, very safe in a plane because you can't get out of it. Just one panicked passenger, even sans knife,  is a danger in a plane....because people have no place to go if that person starts swinging.

                One panicked person who's armed? That's not "someone can get hurt." That's "someone can get killed."

                Freedom has two enemies: Those who want to control everyone around them...and those who feel no need to control themselves.

                by Sirenus on Sat Mar 09, 2013 at 09:18:11 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

      •  "Hey Pilot....I am going to kill every child... (0+ / 0-)

        ....on this airplane unless you open the door", I can hear a theoretical terrorist saying.

        If you hate government, don't run for office in that government.

        by Bensdad on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 09:00:43 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Not if I'm on board (7+ / 0-)

          And not with the vast majority of people in this country, women included. Go ahead, make that threat and the whole fucking plane is going to rush you and take your knife away and you'll be lucky if you get taken out of there on a stretcher with a pulse.

          The chances of any of us encountering a 2" knife-wielding crazy person on an airplane are exactly, precisely the same as they are walking into your local post office. Allowing small blades on planes doesn't change the statistics one tiny bit.

          Life isn't scary, allow it to go on around you without being frightened all the time.

          [Terrorists] are a dime a dozen, they are all over the world and for every one we lock up there will be three to take his place. --Digby

          by rabel on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 09:15:54 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  "The whole plane is going to rush you." (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Bisbonian, arabian

            OMG.

            Do you people only fly first class? Or do you watch too damn many movies?

            In coach, the aisle is narrow, the seats are high, you have four inches of clearance for your knees. Exactly how is a "whole plane" worth of people going to "rush" one homicidal killer with a razor sharp knife to the throat of the passenger, say, sitting in the window seat?

            God, people! Grow up!

            Freedom has two enemies: Those who want to control everyone around them...and those who feel no need to control themselves.

            by Sirenus on Sat Mar 09, 2013 at 07:20:28 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Good fucking lord (0+ / 0-)

              you're AFRAID of somebody with a fucking knife?

              Your end of the Constitution is sinking.

              by happymisanthropy on Sat Mar 09, 2013 at 09:47:16 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Yeah, gee, I must be the worst coward in the (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                arabian

                world.

                To be afraid of something that could cut my throat, damage my internal organs, permanently disfigure me, etc. etc etc.

                I'm assuming that your comment is snark. Because adults aren't supposed to think that "yippie kai yeah" movies are in any way related to real life.

                Please don't tell me I'm wrong.

                Freedom has two enemies: Those who want to control everyone around them...and those who feel no need to control themselves.

                by Sirenus on Sat Mar 09, 2013 at 02:42:51 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

    •  Trained people don't need weapons. (4+ / 0-)

      That is TSA's biggest farce of all.

      "Til you're so fucking crazy you can't follow their rules" John Lennon - Working Class Hero

      by Horace Boothroyd III on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 09:34:28 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  A broken CD is as dangerous. Sheesh. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ladybug53

      I'm an Eagle scout.  I carry a pocket knife (and as a nerd, it has a phillips head on it instead of a corkscrew) as a tool.  Yes, it has a pair of small blades on it that would be legal under TSA's new April 25th rule.  How is that the end of the world?  I flew with it in the 70's, 80's, and 90's.

      Take a CD and break it.  Funny, it's edges are sharp.  Glass is sharp, too.

      /facepalm

      Happy little moron, Lucky little man.
      I wish I was a moron, MY GOD, Perhaps I am!
      —Spike Milligan

      by polecat on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 10:25:13 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Glass is *really* sharp (3+ / 0-)

        Fun Fact: Back in the day, researchers working with electron microscopes would simply break a piece of glass and mount the broken piece with a sharp edge in a mount. They'd use the mounted broken glass edge as the knife used to shave microscopically thin pieces of material off of whatever they were going to to examine under the electron microscope. A standard metal scalpel or knife isn't nearly as sharp as a simple broken glass edge.

        [Terrorists] are a dime a dozen, they are all over the world and for every one we lock up there will be three to take his place. --Digby

        by rabel on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 09:19:47 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  A Big Win for the Whittlers! (0+ / 0-)

      I missed the massive groundswell of public opinion from small knife owners. They must have a huge organization and expensive lobbyists in order to get the TSA to rule something that flies in the face of common sense.

      I also missed the massive demonstration by whittlers on the Washington Mall. Bet all those shavings made good compost.

      Apparently enough time has passed where we can lower our guard and become vulnerable again. Huh?

      A Southerner in Yankeeland

      •  If we'd stop threatening them and invading their (3+ / 0-)

        homes and killing their families, maybe they'd stop trying to stop us from killing their families and bombing their homes.

        Jesus died to save you from Yahweh.

        by nolagrl on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 08:46:29 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Security "Experts"? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Bisbonian, KayCeSF
        Transport Workers Union Local 556, which represents over 10,000 flight attendants at Southwest Airlines, called the new policy “dangerous” and “shortsighted,” saying it was designed to make “the lives of TSA staff easier, but not make flights safer.”

        “While we agree that a passenger wielding a small knife or swinging a golf club or hockey stick poses less of a threat to the pilot locked in the cockpit, these are real threats to passengers and flight attendants in the passenger cabin,” the union said in a statement.

        The policy change was based on a recommendation from an internal TSA working group, which decided the items represented no real danger, said David Castelveter, a spokesman for the agency.

        -- CBS

        I'm with the union. This is a solution looking for a problem. What group or congressman pressured TSA to come up with this? Who represents the Knife Manufacturers and Sellers of America?

        "Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything even remotely true." -- H. Simpson

        by midnight lurker on Sat Mar 09, 2013 at 08:51:48 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  and we STILL have to remove our #$% shoes! (5+ / 0-)
    •  get real (5+ / 0-)

      a small pocket knife?  Inflict a lot of damage?  How much longer must we live like this?  Under such derangement?

      After decades of wage erosion in the airline industry, I would think the unions would have bigger fish to fry...but I guess not.

      I don't fly that much anymore either...but everytime I do I feel like a carnival rube.  

      Oregon: Sure...it's cold. But it's a damp cold.

      by Keith930 on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 11:36:26 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  It always amused me that only Mid East Airlines (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    webranding, skod, ladybug53

    like Emirates, Gulfair, Ethihad served their in flight meals with metal silverware.

    Also it is interesting that it is possible to check in, clear customs, passport control etc in under 15 minutes in the UAE, Qatar, Bahrain etc.

    •  It Is Strange (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      peterfallow, mungley, ladybug53

      when I fly now it is out of St. Louis and usually to NYC, Boston,  or DC. Clearly St. Louis, Lambert isn't the size of those other airports. But I can get into the place and on my plane in literally minutes. It has taken me hours in those other cities. Hours and hours. Makes no sense to me.

      When opportunity calls pick up the phone and give it directions to your house.

      by webranding on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 09:11:42 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I live in STL too and TSA can be hit or miss (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        webranding, Eyesbright

        The east terminal isn't so bad, maybe the TSA puts most of their personnel there since Southwest is the airport's largest airline and that's where more people are, but I've had to wait a good half hour or more over in the A concourse in T1 where United and Delta are.

        "How come when it’s us, it’s an abortion, and when it’s a chicken, it’s an omelette?" - George Carlin

        by yg17 on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 09:42:59 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Maybe It Is A Time Of Day Thing (0+ / 0-)

          I am always like on the first flight out of the place. Early, early AM.

          When opportunity calls pick up the phone and give it directions to your house.

          by webranding on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 09:47:25 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Yeah, that's why. Not many people (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            webranding, Eyesbright

            are crazy enough to wake up at 3 AM for a flight ;)

            But those early flights tend to be the cheapest. I know when I search on Kayak or whatever for a flight, I get all excited about how cheap the flight is until I look at the times.

            "How come when it’s us, it’s an abortion, and when it’s a chicken, it’s an omelette?" - George Carlin

            by yg17 on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 09:50:19 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  In Hindsight That Might Be My Problem (0+ / 0-)

              I always fly out of St. Louis as early as possible and fly back on the last flight. Wherever I am going I want to maximize my time there. Every second.

              When opportunity calls pick up the phone and give it directions to your house.

              by webranding on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 09:54:30 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

    •  When I flew out of Korea, I was very politely (9+ / 0-)

      asked to remove my shoes and I was provided with a pair of sandals and thanked when I was done.

      When I got to LAX, I was screamed at by TSA assholes who berated people for not taking their shoes off fast enough.

      I wanted to beat one of them down, but, of course, you can;t.

      Stupid fucking fascist country.

      Let us resolve to ensure NOTHING ever gets done correctly.

      The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.

      by xxdr zombiexx on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 09:21:46 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Those countries are not arming..... (0+ / 0-)

      .....Israel. We are. I am not questioning the wisdom of that decision here. But I am saying that it makes us a target for those who wish to express their violent opposition to that policy.

      If you hate government, don't run for office in that government.

      by Bensdad on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 09:04:21 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Not true (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ladybug53, bimbels

      Quite a number of airlines use metal silverware. Some only in Business or First Class.

      And I have a large collection of little teaspoons from Swissair to prove it; ever since I asked  a FA years ago if I could keep one and she said yes, it has become a hobby - they never refuse if you ask politely, and everyone loves the little spoons.

      And clearing immigration and customs in many Asian airports in less than 15 minutes is common, depending on the traffic.

      What about my Daughter's future?

      by koNko on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 11:48:09 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  And yet we still (12+ / 0-)

    have to take off our shoes, limit our liquids and have old folks with knee and hip replacements frisked.  Makes perfect sense to me.

    Eeejits.

    " My faith in the Constitution is whole; it is complete; it is total." Barbara Jordan, 1974

    by gchaucer2 on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 09:08:46 AM PST

    •  I Recall, Waiting In Line In Vegas (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      gchaucer2, corvo, greengemini

      the lady in front of me had bought like a thousand dollar bottle of wine. As you might think, she wanted to keep it with her. The cork was still in. Had a seal across it. The TSA guy told her she couldn't bring it with her on the plane. Suggested she find a cork screw and pound it.

      I suggested to her to see if she can find a way to Federal Express it to herself, although if she was going to "pound" it I would help :).

      When opportunity calls pick up the phone and give it directions to your house.

      by webranding on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 09:18:57 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I've had to super duper (7+ / 0-)

        wrap my beloved Temecula Olive Oil when I fly back from CA.  My bag is always opened.  Last time my second bag -- the size of a carryon was opened because I had put my great grandmother's cast iron pancake griddle in it -- to shield my nuclear weapon from detection, of course.

        " My faith in the Constitution is whole; it is complete; it is total." Barbara Jordan, 1974

        by gchaucer2 on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 09:26:01 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Maybe I Should Stop Bitching (0+ / 0-)

          cause it sounds like your experiences are 10x worse then anything I have dealt with. I might have flown 30 times since 9/11 and not had my bags opened once. Never pulled aside. Never felt up.

          When opportunity calls pick up the phone and give it directions to your house.

          by webranding on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 09:36:58 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  My bags are opened all the time. (2+ / 0-)

            At least they leave a little note inside your bag to that effect, even if you find yourself wondering why you have one less pair of trousers than when you'd packed that bag in the morning.

          •  The only place I got felt up was in Philly (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            webranding

            I was wearing a Blues jersey and they said it was because the jersey was bulky clothing. Funny, because St. Louis TSA didn't have a problem with the jersey when I wore it when I flew out (hockey jerseys are surprisingly comfortable on planes and keep you warm in the winter). Not sure if it was TSA policy or the general Philly attitude towards fans of opposing teams.

            But that's the only real "issue" I've had with TSA.

            "How come when it’s us, it’s an abortion, and when it’s a chicken, it’s an omelette?" - George Carlin

            by yg17 on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 09:47:09 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Had a TSA agent teach me some packing tricks (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              ladybug53

              I once asked how he'd get all that stuff back into a bag if it was packed to the gills and didn't want to go back in.

              Two tricks:
              1) use the expansion zipper -- open it, put the stuff in, and then close it
              2) when folding your clothes, try to minimize the number of folds and keep the folds toward the outside edges of the bag.  Folds use up a lot of thickness and make it harder to get stuff in the bag.

              'Bout the only use I ever had for TSA, though.

              Happy little moron, Lucky little man.
              I wish I was a moron, MY GOD, Perhaps I am!
              —Spike Milligan

              by polecat on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 10:31:06 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  A tip I learned for packing was to roll your (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                polecat, ladybug53

                clothes instead of folding them. It seems to work, I was able to fit a weeks worth of clothes in a carry on suitcase.

                "How come when it’s us, it’s an abortion, and when it’s a chicken, it’s an omelette?" - George Carlin

                by yg17 on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 11:03:24 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  who knew TSA was good for packing tips? (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                ladybug53

                I thought they only stole stuff.  The TSA is the most ridiculous and criminal branch of the federal government.

                Nothing but a bunch of ignorant, stealin' mooches in uniform.

                Security theater is right.

                Oregon: Sure...it's cold. But it's a damp cold.

                by Keith930 on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 11:50:59 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

            •  They did the same to me in (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              ladybug53

              Minneapolis/St. Paul

              The thing about democracy, beloveds, is that it is not neat, orderly, or quiet. It requires a certain relish for confusion. Molly Ivins

              by MufsMom on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 08:45:23 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

    •  This Rule Never Would Have Gone Through... (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      xxdr zombiexx, corvo, RichM, ladybug53

      ...if there were shops behind the security checkpoint selling small blades at a 100% markup.

      On the Internet, nobody knows if you're a dog... but everybody knows if you're a jackass.

      by stevemb on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 09:20:16 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  And people must be groped. (4+ / 0-)

      Molested for freedom.

      The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.

      by xxdr zombiexx on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 09:24:53 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I always wear my (5+ / 0-)

        power bras -- sports variety -- on my teeny tits when I fly.  I've been felt up numerous times -- always by women and they apologize.

        My Mom has 2 knee replacements -- brings the doctor's letter and still gets the full grope treatment.  Some people must have a hard on for 86 year olds.

        " My faith in the Constitution is whole; it is complete; it is total." Barbara Jordan, 1974

        by gchaucer2 on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 09:27:38 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  The sort of personality that is going to stomach (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          corvo, greengemini, Cassandra Waites

          a job like TSA is going to totally buy into the terror paranoia and propaganda an agency like that buries its people in.

          They won't be the sharpest knives in the drawer.

          They will believe they have to grope people to keep America safe.

          And some will just get off on it.

          They'll likely move up into leadership.

          The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.

          by xxdr zombiexx on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 09:35:18 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  When the sheriffs department won't take you... (0+ / 0-)

            ...paging Zimmerman.

            Happy little moron, Lucky little man.
            I wish I was a moron, MY GOD, Perhaps I am!
            —Spike Milligan

            by polecat on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 10:32:08 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  My spouse is in TSA (0+ / 0-)

            for 10 years now.  He's college educated, and damn smart.  Also one of the more pragmatic people i know.  Occasionally I will hear things about what kinds of things people try to get on planes, and even if none of these folk were terrorists I wouldn't want their carry on on the same flight.  From the "forgotten" loaded gun to a crossbow with quarrels; seriously nasty shit.

            Certainly every organization has its power trippers and folk that are just plain nasty.  I don't think TSA has an above average number.  And if they are caught at it its goodbye.

            Democrats give you the Bill of Rights; Republicans sell you a bill of goods!

            by barbwires on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 10:33:08 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  Rule of law (0+ / 0-)

          Everyone gets the same treatment.  Unless you're okay with giving TSA personnel some discretion and having a hardcore evangelical decide to let people through based on how much Christian paraphernalia they are wearing.  Well, maybe you'd be okay with it if you thought that Christians couldn't possibly be terrorists because they're not Muslims.

        •  Thank god for those people who still... (0+ / 0-)

          ...have hard ons for 60 years olds. I imagine I will still feel the same way in 26 years.

          I would prefer for all concerned that that not be expressed in a TSA line. I do accept the groping, though, as a necessary consequence of our propensity to arm other nations that have long enemy lists.

          If you hate government, don't run for office in that government.

          by Bensdad on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 09:09:35 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  They have a professional obligation (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Subterranean

          To touch your junk.

           photo TSAVennDiagram2400x390.png

          What about my Daughter's future?

          by koNko on Sat Mar 09, 2013 at 12:03:41 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Hey speak for yourself! Some of us need that (0+ / 0-)

        contact or else we would have not human touch!

        Then they came for me - and by that time there was nobody left to speak up.

        by DefendOurConstitution on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 11:00:07 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Airport groping isn't so bad (0+ / 0-)

          Sure beats being groped while in the process of catheterization.  Gotta take what we can get past a certain age.  Last time I flew I briefly considered dropping a roll of old-school silver dollars in my skivvies just to see the groper's reaction, but I chickened out.

          The wisdom of my forebears ... Two wise people will never agree. Man begins in dust and ends in dust — meanwhile it's good to drink some vodka. A man studies until he's seventy and dies a fool.

          by Not A Bot on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 11:39:59 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  I have been a flight attendant for 23 years (11+ / 0-)

    (For Delta, nice pic) and I can tell you that all of my colleagues are absolutely dumbfounded by this.  

    We have to take off our shoes, regulate and corral our liquids, remove our laptops, submit to body scans - but yeah, let's let an ACTUAL WEAPON onboard.  So the TSA can save time and money and concentrate on toxins and bombs that might actually take out an entire aircraft. It's ludicrous.

    At least I can rest easy I won't be assaulted by a 4oz tube of toothpaste.

  •  It is a bizarre thing to allow. Is there some (6+ / 0-)

    super-powerful small knife lobby we've never heard of at work here?

    How is my contact lens solution more dangerous than a small knife?

    Confession time: When I'm not ranting about politics, I write romance novels

    by teresahill on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 09:18:20 AM PST

  •  TSA is incompetent: Allowing box cutter back on (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    webranding, maryabein, corvo, 88kathy

    planes.

    Box cutters and knives. Welcome aboard.

    Marijuana???? (sounds of gunfire)

    This country is deeply invested in doing absolutely everything the wrong fucking way

    The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.

    by xxdr zombiexx on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 09:19:37 AM PST

  •  Thank god (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    webranding, polecat

    Lots of people carry pocketknives as a matter of course.  I do.  I've lost several to the TSA (and more than one corkscrew).   We aren't the nation we were 11 years ago; I think we can allow pocketknives again.

    Minority rights should never be subject to majority vote.

    by lostboyjim on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 09:22:26 AM PST

  •  It is like watching a well timed ballet. nt (4+ / 0-)

    "Til you're so fucking crazy you can't follow their rules" John Lennon - Working Class Hero

    by Horace Boothroyd III on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 09:30:24 AM PST

  •  We have not been subjected to another (4+ / 0-)

    public HOMELAND SECURITY ORANGE THREAT LEVEL OF DOOM since right before Bush's re-election.

    It was all scaremongering and milking 9/11 for electoral manipulation and it worked great.

    We haven't seen or heard of it since.

    But we this lame shit about pocket knives and shampoo and shoes.

    it is a thousand wonders we don't have to fly naked, locked to our chairs and sedated.

    The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.

    by xxdr zombiexx on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 09:31:44 AM PST

  •  What the TSA are you thinking? (4+ / 0-)

    The only thing TSA is telling me is that terrorists aren't all that dangerous because I have never seen a group of people screw up so much with breast milk, little girls in wheel chairs, etc. etc. etc.

    Now they say it's ok for knives and I still can't bring mouth wash.

    What the TSA?

    guns are fun v. hey buddy, watch what you are doing -- which side are you on?

    by 88kathy on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 09:32:04 AM PST

  •  Thank goodness (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    xxdr zombiexx, ladybug53

    we still have to take off our shoes.

  •  All I can think is that TSA has all the small (7+ / 0-)

    knives it wants.  However it still wants all liquids people might want to carry.  My mouthwash.

    These people haven't bought the confiscated stuff for years.

    guns are fun v. hey buddy, watch what you are doing -- which side are you on?

    by 88kathy on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 09:35:59 AM PST

  •  Has anybody... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    newdem1960, Batya the Toon

    Anywhere ever proved that one can produce a two-part explosive from two not explosive liquids on a plan without anybody knowing what is going on?  I have yet to see evidence that the liquid restriction is anything more than fear mongering.

    'Guns don't kill people, video games do - paraphrased from Lamar Alexander (Sen-R-TN)'

    by RichM on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 10:09:52 AM PST

    •  I remember the first week they banned liquids (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      RichM, Roadbed Guy

      and I heard that the TSA personnel were pouring all the confiscated liquids into a single waste tank.

      Which is a hideously stupid thing to do with any liquids that you seriously think could be combined to form an explosive, because THEY WILL EXPLODE.  And take out a good part of the security line, and the guard who's doing it.

      Which means that they knew perfectly well that nothing they were confiscating was dangerous.  But they were confiscating it anyway.  Because reasons.

      •  Yeah, me too - I flew then too and (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ladybug53

        was dumbfounded that the solution to this dire threat was to  do exactly what would ensure that the threat was realized  (if it really were a real threat) - i.e., mix all the explosive subparts into one, ensuring that one big ass explosion would take place in the very crowded terminal building.

        Upon a few minutes reflection (of which there was ample time to complete standing in the longer than usual line) it became 110% crystal clear that the entire thing was kabuki theater, or whatever it is that they call it.

      •  If some "ordinary" liquids... (0+ / 0-)

        ...were already poured into the waste tank, the dilution and messing up the chemistry may result little risk. (But, I'm not a chemist so I'm just guessing).

        Again, the goal isn't to protect the airport or its customers -- it's to avoid getting the explosives on a plane where they could be used to cause a crash into a populated area.

        By confiscating the liquids, they expect that no one will even try to bring them aboard so they probably assume that the stuff they were dumping out wasn't a binary explosive.

        If someone's goal was to blow up the area around the security checkpoint, they would probably just wear a well tested explosive suicide vest.

        •  I'm still astonished no one's done that yet. (0+ / 0-)

          But while the goal isn't to protect the airport or its customers, it is still incredibly stupid to prevent getting the explosives onto the plane in a way that will endanger the airport and its customers.

          Or that would endanger the airport and its customers, if there were any real chance that the stuff being poured out were dangerous.  Which there wasn't, and they knew it.

    •  It's nonsense! (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Bisbonian

      Nitroglycerin is very unstable. I cannot imagine pouring a huge quantity of it (say 4 oz) and jiggling it around. It would explode before you even got on the plane.

      I worked with IV bags of it and it had to be handled carefully. But it's like that guy trying to set his shoe on fire, it's not likely that it would work very well.

      In our sleep, pain which cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart until, in our own despair, comes wisdom through the awful grace of God ~RFK

      by vcmvo2 on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 08:32:51 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Sure (0+ / 0-)

      Binary explosives can be mixed at your seat or in the toilet.

      At great personal risk, of course, but anyone intending to bring down a plane is presumed to accept that.

      What about my Daughter's future?

      by koNko on Sat Mar 09, 2013 at 12:10:31 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Especially since those liquids are bound (0+ / 0-)

      to be pungent.

      "Til you're so fucking crazy you can't follow their rules" John Lennon - Working Class Hero

      by Horace Boothroyd III on Sat Mar 09, 2013 at 04:36:38 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Cannot part with pocket knife ... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JML9999

    ... but still cannot bring large shampoo container. Clearly, we need the former more than the latter.

  •  The head of the TSA must be a Republican. (0+ / 0-)

    Hired or appointed, very likely by other Republicans.

  •  So two foursomes could bring an entire (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JML9999, vcmvo2, easong

    set of golf clubs onboard.
    Roger that.

    What a stupid idea.

    Honesty is not a policy. It's a character trait.

    by Says Who on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 08:09:04 PM PST

  •  Dats knot uh noif (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Major Kong

    I want 1 less Tiny Coffin, Why Don't You? Support The President's Gun Violence Plan.

    by JML9999 on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 08:09:35 PM PST

  •  Silly (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    vcmvo2, here4tehbeer, ladybug53

    We look for "weapons". We should look for terrorists. I had my (grandfather's) pocket knife in my - wait for it - pocket in 2002. Totally forgot. (I always carry a pocket knife). The ordeal left me a day late (including an overnight motel stay at a totally sketchy place). The TSA twerps were clueless and rude.

  •  Ridiculous! (5+ / 0-)

    I have to throw away face cream, saline for my contacts and toothpaste, but small knives and bats are A-ok?

    I hate this, hate the TSA and their dumb guidelines. They do not keep us safer. They even wanted to scrutinize my blush and my mascara. Oooh really dangerous!

    Sheesh!

    In our sleep, pain which cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart until, in our own despair, comes wisdom through the awful grace of God ~RFK

    by vcmvo2 on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 08:19:36 PM PST

  •  Since a properly training person (0+ / 0-)

    can kill with their bare hands, I guess the knife thing is not that big a deal.

    BUT, it still makes me nervous. We think differently than we used to, prior to 9/11, it seems to me. And much of that thinking is fear-based.

    I have enough background in enough areas to be able to come up with dozens of ways to kill people on a plane without a knife, but I still don't like the idea of knives on a plane. And I know it's a fear I didn't used to have.

    I must be dreaming...

    by murphy on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 08:20:35 PM PST

    •  I'm not sure the average terrorist (0+ / 0-)

      is really that well trained. We're not dealing with Spetznaz commandos here.

      Mostly they're just willing to use violence to achieve their ends and not afraid of dying in the process.

      If the pilot's good, see, I mean if he's reeeally sharp, he can barrel that baby in so low... oh you oughta see it sometime. It's a sight. A big plane like a '52... varrrooom! Its jet exhaust... frying chickens in the barnyard!

      by Major Kong on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 08:57:35 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  If I still flew (0+ / 0-)

    I think I would carve a little compartment in my shoe and store a perfectly legal (now) knife in the hollowed space.  What a hoot!

  •  2.36 inches of blade in my neck? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    koNko

    No thank you. Other countries are not as much of a target as we are. There are reasons for that better left for another time. In the meantime, there should be no change in the rules.

    We don't even allow these into COURTROOMS, and should  not allow them on airplanes.

    Pack it.

    If you hate government, don't run for office in that government.

    by Bensdad on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 08:58:48 PM PST

  •  I suggest everyone read Patrick Smith's thoughts (0+ / 0-)
  •  Why the Two Golf Clubs? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ladybug53

    I can bring my Big Bertha and my 5 iron on board, but if my putter came too that would represent a security threat?

    We will never have the elite, smart people on our side. - Rick Santorum

    by easong on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 10:16:45 PM PST

  •  They are right. (0+ / 0-)

    A sharp, narrow 2" knife is a deadly weapon.

    What about my Daughter's future?

    by koNko on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 11:31:24 PM PST

  •  From what I've been told.. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ladybug53, shpilk, arabian

    ..we just need a lot of people with guns on the plane.  They will defend us from the people who have knives.

    When extra-terrestrial beings make their first appearance on our planet, and ask for representatives of our species to best exemplify humanity, I'm sending a nurse, a librarian, and a firefighter.

    by Wayward Son on Sat Mar 09, 2013 at 02:47:11 AM PST

  •  Liquids ban is incredibly stupid (0+ / 0-)

    Unfortunately the US is not the only dumb country in this idiotic mess.

    What is going to stop three terrorists from combining their own 3 oz liquid quotas into one bigger liquids container(if one goes by the theory that 3 oz is the safe limit)

  •  Stand by for new Victorinox models . . . (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ladybug53

    I don't suppose it's coincidence that the max blade size is 2.36 inches, and all the "big blade" Victorinox models are 2.375.

    I like to carry a large Victorinox with lots of tools, but can't carry that until they sell a new one that's just like the old one but with a 2.35 inch blade.

    Wait - - two minutes with a bench grinder and I have a legal customized blade ! !

  •  Swiss Army knives (0+ / 0-)

    Mark Furhman thought that some of the wounds to OJ's wife were caused by a swiss army knife. Not a toy, but also not an assault rifle.

    You can't take the sky from me!

    by wrights on Sat Mar 09, 2013 at 05:50:20 AM PST

  •  picture and AFA (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bimbels

    Small point. Probably not a good idea to show a Delta airplane and discuss flight attendants unions as Delta flight attendants have voted against having a union. Much to the dismay of some of the other flight attendants who were unionized but whose companies were taken over by Delta.

  •  Rest easy now, (0+ / 0-)

    The dogs are still sniffing for weed, because the last thing we want is a stoned man wielding a knife.

    "When I was an alien, cultures weren't opinions" ~ Kurt Cobain, Territorial Pissings

    by Subterranean on Sat Mar 09, 2013 at 08:18:35 AM PST

  •  I am a trained commando/Ninja/movie action hero (0+ / 0-)

    and I can tell you, my weapon of choice is shampoo in a 3 ounce bottle.I quickly lather one victim to death, pull the bottle out of my ammo belt and on to the next victim.

    Knives are too messy

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