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Senator-elect Bernie Sanders (I-VT) is interviewed by a Reuters reporter at Sanders' office in Burlington, Vermont November 28, 2006. Sanders, a 16-year veteran of the House of Representatives who swept 65 percent of the vote in Vermont running as an inde
Sen. Bernie Sanders is leading the charge in the Senate to block any grand bargain that would cut Medicare, Medicaid, or Social Security benefits, and he's got a pretty smart strategy. He explained his efforts in an interview with Greg Sargent. Getting a budget deal is not about offering up the trophy of entitlement cuts to lure in Republicans, Sanders says.
"It's a question of making Republicans an offer they can't refuse," Sanders tells me. "Their position is no more revenues. You and I know that is not the position of the American people. One in four corporations doesn't pay any taxes. What Democrats and progressives should say is, 'Sorry, we're not going to balance the budget on the backs of the vulnerable.'" Sanders described the idea of cutting education, Social Security, Medicare and veterans' benefits as an "obscenity." [...]

"The alternative is not to go into a back room and negotiate with Boehner; it's to make our case to the American people," Sanders said. "I don't believe there's a red state in America where people believe you should cut Medicare, Social Security and veterans' benefits rather than doing away with corporate tax loopholes."

Now that's a pretty smart and pragmatic reading of the American electorate as well as a smart and pragmatic strategy for getting the Republicans to relent on revenue. Wooing them sure as hell isn't going to get the job done. But standing up as Democrats, with the people, could.

Engaging the public is something Republicans seem to recognize, or at least pay lip service to. That's what's behind their whole supposed "rebranding" effort. RNC chair Reince Preibus says it clearly: "We've got a marketing problem. [...] A pretty big lesson, I think, for the party is that we can't be totally obsessed with math and arithmetic—that we have to go for people's hearts."

But while they're going for people's hearts in marketing, they're missing the mark when it comes to actual policy. Paul Ryan's latest budget is the clearest evidence that they really haven't yet learned the lesson of the 2012 election. So what Democrats, what President Obama, should be doing is to exploit that. The tax message, particularly, was extremely effective in 2012. It could be again, and the American people could be engaged in this budget fight with the promise that Democrats are looking out for them.

That's Sanders' message, and he thinks he has liberal backing in the Senate to amplify it. Or perhaps at least enough help in the Senate to stop a grand bargain that damages social insurance programs, and the Democratic brand with it.

Send an email to the White House telling President Obama to immediately stop proposing any cuts to Social Security.

Originally posted to Joan McCarter on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 09:05 AM PDT.

Also republished by Daily Kos.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Good policy, good sense, good politics. (45+ / 0-)

    It's a win-win-win.

    Why can't serious Democrats see this?

    “Washington has become our Versailles. We are ruled, entertained, and informed by courtiers -- and the media has evolved into a class of courtiers." - Chris Hedges

    by Klusterpuck on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 09:07:12 AM PDT

      •  I have a terrible feeling about this... (21+ / 0-)

        I listen to Obama and Carney talk, and I would bet the farm they will sell us out in the end.

        Here is how it will shake out:

        A budget will be passed. It will basically be the Ryan budget...plus a sweetener on the revenue side to appease the Democratic leadership in the senate I.e closing loopholes for the wealthy and/or higher cap gains taxes.

        The Big 3 will be on the chopping block. I hope I'm wrong, but history says this Prez will sell us out to make a "deal"

        Adequate health care should be a LEGAL RIGHT in the U.S without begging or bankruptcy. Until it is, we should not dare call our society civilized.

        by Love Me Slender on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 09:40:16 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  LMS, you nailed it. I have posted a comment in (17+ / 0-)

          depth on the Democratic Party's complicity in cutting Medicare.  [See Jed's two March 12 diaries on the Ryan Budget.]

          Here's just the video from a TYT program, and a brief transcript of the Clinton/Ryan backstage conversation at the Pete Peterson Foundation in 2011.
          [Video Credit:  TYT, The Young Turks, YouTube, 4:53]

          We'll be seeing a replay of this Kabuki episode over the next several months.

          You are right to be skeptical.  We MUST ALL BE VIGILANT, and scrutinize Murray's budget tomorrow, calling her and the Senate Dems on all the concessions that their budget will very likely contain.

          I will post the Capitol Hill and White House phone numbers repeatedly over the next several weeks.

          We must 'burn up the phone lines,' or we'll soon have some version of Ryan's budget shoved down our throats.

          The time is NOW to take a stand against 'austerity,' folks.

          Mollie

          "If a dog won’t come to you after having looked you in the face, you should go home and examine your conscience.” -- Woodrow Wilson

          hiddennplainsight

          by musiccitymollie on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 09:51:27 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  As an aside, Greg Sargent appears to serve as (11+ / 0-)

          a Democratic Party apparatchik.  At least on some occasions.  Case in point, below.

          Remember the live stream here, the night of the SOTUS?

          I blogged immediately about the President's mention of "means testing Medicare."

          And, within minutes of the conclusion of the SOTUS, Sargent posted a "Tweet" saying that someone (nameless) in the White House said that the President did not mean to indicate "means testing Medicare."

          Funny thing, it's posted on the White House website.

          It's the fourth item under "Health Savings."  It reads:  'Encourage beneficiaries to seek high value health care, and ask the most fortunate to pay more.'

          So take him with a 'big grain of salt.'  It appears that his  function is to 'provide cover' to Dems.  

          And if it's not, at the very least, he needs to get a better White House source.

           :-)

          Mollie

          "If a dog won’t come to you after having looked you in the face, you should go home and examine your conscience.” -- Woodrow Wilson

          hiddennplainsight

          by musiccitymollie on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 10:11:11 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Sargent's problem (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            shaharazade, quagmiremonkey, rbird

            Sargent has an annoying habit of complaining that Republicans won't come to the table with Obama when Obama is promising to give them the "entitlement reform" that they want.  Why should liberals be sad that Republicans don't seem genuinely interested in the "Grand Bargain" of which Obama and the elite centrist pundits of the Beltway dream?  

            Sargent also always likes to highlight polls that say that the public wants a mix of tax increases and spending cuts but doesn't acknowledge that the president's plan would be deeply unpopular because cuts to Social Security and benefits to disabled veterans (chained CPI) would not be popular.  Polls that show that speak in vague terms are also useless anyway.

            It always feels like Bizarro-World to me when Democratic pundits and journos complain that Republicans won't cut Medicare and Social Security with them.  Paul Ryan's budget did nothing tangible to Social Security despite complaining about its insolvency, probably because Republicans will campaign against Obama's SS cuts if he gets them through.

          •  apparatchik? (0+ / 0-)

            cute, I heard Glenn Beck saying similar things about the administration.

            Sargent said what anyone who understands the sequester is thinking. How does it end? Bernie and friends block the cpi cuts AND THEN WHAT? Republicans give up on gov't cuts in exchange for corporate tax increases? Shit why stop there, lets  tack a carbon tax in there too while we're getting everything we want for no obvious reason.

            You Hate Cuts 2 Medicare? Do You Love Obamacare? It added $1 trillion to Medicaid.

            by CornSyrupAwareness on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 03:58:58 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  CSA, not sure what you sayin'--sorry. But if (4+ / 0-)

              you're saying that you don't know why I consider him to be an apparatchik, it's because he carries the water for anything that the Administration is trying to accomplish.

              Please read my comment on his 'Tweet denial of means testing'--I've also posted the White House's own brief showing that they do indeed support expanded means testing of Medicare, just as the President stated during the SOTUS.

              My comments will show that I blogged it during the live feed here, within seconds of the statement being made by the President during the SOTUS.

              I cannot get a Tweet to post at DKos (although I post them at several other blogs), or I'd post his Tweet, which I answered with a question.  I may just post the dialogue here, later.

              You say:  

              Sargent said what anyone who understands the sequester is thinking. How does it end? Bernie and friends block the cpi cuts AND THEN WHAT?
              Do you really believe that Senator Sanders (or any Democrat) will accomplish blocking the Chained or Superlative CPI?  

              I can't even imagine it.  I know of no successes akin to this one, on the part of the CPC or any individual Democratic Party rank-and-file lawmakers.

              BTW, here's a new Dem 'talking point.'

              Senator Sanders (Greg Sargent Interview):  "Getting a budget deal is not about offering up the trophy of entitlement cuts to lure in Republicans, Sanders says."

              Nancy Pelosi (Sunday, March 10th, State Of The Nation):

              "If the point of it is to take trophies, let's raise the age. That doesn't save money. It's a trophy. It's a scalp. But it's not a solution. And so --"

              IMHO, the Chained CPI is a done deal.  Dems are now resorting to talking points aimed at shifting the blame to the Repubs for the cuts.  Clever, eh?
              If I'm wrong, I'll gladly 'eat crow' when this entire debacle is over.  And I'll even look for you!  ;-D

              BTW, the fight is on, and here are the the pertinent phone numbers:

              Please burn up the phone line to the White House, to Speaker Boehner's Office, and to Capitol Hill.

              Here's the White House Comment Line (live and recording):  

              1-202-456-1111

              Here's two Capitol Hill phone numbers (for Speaker Boehner, our Senators and US House Representatives):

              1-866-220-0044
              1-202-224-3121

              {Just called and made sure that these are current numbers.}

              Mollie

              "If a dog won’t come to you after having looked you in the face, you should go home and examine your conscience.” -- Woodrow Wilson

              hiddennplainsight

              by musiccitymollie on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 04:30:04 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  ? (0+ / 0-)

                I don't see Republicans giving up on their favorite thing, cutting government, in exchange for one of their least favorite things, raising taxes (especially if its by closing the loopholes their donors use). And I don't see Dems voting for CPI cuts in exchange for nothing. So... I'm with Sargent, I don't see how the sequester ends before the next Congress.

                PS: Eating crow at the end doesn't necessarily make up for being wrong about things you were proclaiming in a provocative way, if what you say convinces others along the way to spread your wrong message or give up.

                You Hate Cuts 2 Medicare? Do You Love Obamacare? It added $1 trillion to Medicaid.

                by CornSyrupAwareness on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 04:44:30 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Heck, CSA, I think I've not been clear again, LOL! (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  joanneleon, quagmiremonkey

                  So allow me to clarify, please.

                  I believe totally what I've stated in any and all of my comments.

                  However, since I'm not omnipotent, I'm simply saying that IF I'm should prove to be wrong, I will at least own up to it. That's all.

                  I believe that sometime before the end of this term (Presidential), the bulk of the Bowles-Simpson proposed cuts to Social Security and Medicare benefits will have been enacted, or at least signed into law.

                  After all, it was the President who came into office planning to cut entitlements.  If you recall, Repubs ran like scalded rabbits when George Bush brought up the topic during his Administration.

                  See this WaPo piece:

                  Obama Pledges Reform of Social Security, Medicare Programs

                  Interview: Obama Speaks with Post Editorial Board
                  President-elect Barack Obama visited The Washington Post on Thursday for an interview before his inauguration Tuesday.

                  By Michael D. Shear, Washington Post Staff Writer
                  Friday, January 16, 2009

                  President-elect Barack Obama pledged yesterday to shape a new Social Security and Medicare "bargain" with the American people, saying that the nation's long-term economic recovery cannot be attained unless the government finally gets control over its most costly entitlement programs. . . . .

                  "What we have done is kicked this can down the road. We are now at the end of the road and are not in a position to kick it any further," he said. "We have to signal seriousness in this by making sure some of the hard decisions are made under my watch, not someone else's."

                  IF the Administration felt enough pressure from the left (and if it mattered to them, which I'm not convinced that it would), it might be that they would postpone some of the Bowles-Simpson prescribed draconian cuts, until AFTER the mid-term elections.  [That's the timeframe that really concerns me.]

                  But because he and his Press Secretary Jay Carney constantly say that they want to strike a Grand Bargain, I'm simply taking them at their word.  Which is why I believe that we will see our social insurance programs deeply cut.  

                  This is an instance in which I would LOVE to be wrong.  But I don't expect to be, because all of the evidence is hidden in plain sight.  ;-D

                  Mollie

                  "If a dog won’t come to you after having looked you in the face, you should go home and examine your conscience.” -- Woodrow Wilson

                  hiddennplainsight

                  by musiccitymollie on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 05:48:08 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I hear you (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    musiccitymollie

                    I just don't see how the pieces fit together to actually get any kind of grand bargain together. I would not like to be wrong about that, so I'm glad you didn't have any extra information in that regard.

                    The other comment wasn't really about you, more about inconsideration of network effects when it comes to organizing; specifically people who spent 2009-2010 trashing Democrats, but then voted for them, and think that last part's all that mattered. Even if in the mean time they convinced five or ten people along the way not to organize or vote for Democrats (and those five or ten, maybe they convinced one or two to give up or start preaching in a way that makes others give up.)

                    /rant have a good night and thanks for being polite in response.

                    You Hate Cuts 2 Medicare? Do You Love Obamacare? It added $1 trillion to Medicaid.

                    by CornSyrupAwareness on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 09:21:46 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

            •  So you're saying you're in favor of cutting (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              quagmiremonkey

              benefits to Social Security and Medicare.  True or not?

              How does it end? Bernie and friends block the cpi cuts AND THEN WHAT? Republicans give up on gov't cuts in exchange for corporate tax increases?
              •  I favor (0+ / 0-)

                understanding what people like Greg Sargent are saying before we call them communist yes-men.

                But since you asked: if I were advising the President i'd tell him not to do the chained CPI cuts. His base can't even figure out that he expanded Medicaid by $1 trillion, there's no chance in hell they'll believe chained CPI is good for them. Especially because the success of avoiding the sequester is not very tangible.

                You Hate Cuts 2 Medicare? Do You Love Obamacare? It added $1 trillion to Medicaid.

                by CornSyrupAwareness on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 05:12:18 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Oh my gawd. I cannot believe you said this (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  jeopardydd, quagmiremonkey

                  in response to my inquiry.

                  So you're saying you're in favor of cutting benefits to Social Security and Medicare.  True or not?
                  Your answer:
                  His base can't even figure out that he expanded Medicaid by $1 trillion, there's no chance in hell they'll believe chained CPI is good for them.
                  YOU DISGUST ME.
                  •  The feeling is mutual (0+ / 0-)

                    The President gets shit for years for potential cuts that never emerge, but when he does a vast expansion of Medicaid, the same people who are so desperate to save the big 3 from cuts are nowhere to be seen to thank him for expanding the big 3. Instead as I remember they called him a corporatist sellout blah blah blah blah blah. Obama's biggest mistakes; underestimating his opposition and overestimating his base.

                    You Hate Cuts 2 Medicare? Do You Love Obamacare? It added $1 trillion to Medicaid.

                    by CornSyrupAwareness on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 05:27:57 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  That's bullshit and you know it. (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      quagmiremonkey
                      the same people who are so desperate to save the big 3 from cuts are nowhere to be seen to thank him for expanding the big 3.
                    •  "potential cuts that never emerge" (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      quagmiremonkey

                      Not for lack of trying.

                      And what are your talking points going to be after the cuts actually happen?  

                      Will you support cuts to Social Security and/or Medicare and/or Medicaid?  A yes/no answer would be good.

                      Also, do you have any line in the sand? Is there anything this administration could do that would cause you to stop attacking people who are working to prevent cuts to the safety net?  A yes/no would be great on that one too.


                      "Justice is a commodity"

                      by joanneleon on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 06:12:17 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I'll answer yours if you answer mine (0+ / 0-)

                        1) Not sure, probably something even less appealing to you than what I'm saying now. Maybe something like, this is why I worked so hard in 2010 to elect Democrats while you all were mocking my efforts or sitting on your hands, or whatever you were doing. I'm sure I'll say something that you won't like, as usual.

                        2) As an economist I'm required by law to say "it depends" at least once in any answer. It depends on Social Security and what kind of deal we're getting in exchange for the CPI cuts. I haven't seen anything offered yet that makes me think it's a good idea right now. I already supported the Medicare cuts that were part of Obamacare, and as you can see from my sig line I think the President made a huge expansion of Medicaid that I don't expect reversed.

                        3a) Of course.
                        3b) Yeah. When I feel like the administration does more harm to my interests than you all do. Drones, prosecuting the Bushies, the handling of the financial collapse and lack of prosecutions for bankers, Keystone.. many areas where I support critics.

                        My question to you; since you're furious about potential cuts to the Big Three, are you happy that President Obama expanded 1 of those Big Three? :)

                        You Hate Cuts 2 Medicare? Do You Love Obamacare? It added $1 trillion to Medicaid.

                        by CornSyrupAwareness on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 09:03:32 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

        •  Yes, I have to confess, (5+ / 0-)

          although I campaigned for him (against the alternative), I don't have a lot of confidence that he will not buckle.

          The GOP can't win on ideas. They can only win by lying, cheating, and stealing. So they do.

          by psnyder on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 02:15:11 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  No, we will not end up with "basically (0+ / 0-)

          the Paul Ryan budget" which depends on the repeal of Obamacare and turns medicare into a voucher program. Ain't going to happen and I really dislike this kind of hyperbole.

          I don't like the president's position on entitlement reform, but he's not going to sign off on anything close to Paul Ryan's budget. Hell, even many republicans think Ryan's recent effort is a waste of time.

          It's very difficult to have a reality based conversation with comments like this.  

          "A typical vice of American politics is the avoidance of saying anything real on real issues." Theodore Roosevelt.

          by StellaRay on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 04:00:02 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  And it he signs off on chained CPI, then what? (0+ / 0-)
            •  Then that SUCKS. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              gooderservice, stewarjt

              I disagree with that totally and completely. And I have and will continue to raise my voice everywhere I can against entitlement reform of this nature. And I'm not alone. There are many of us fighting hard to stop that from happening.  I sure as hell hope we're successful.

              However, there's quite a distance between the chained CPI and Ryan's budget. Actually, a huge fucking distance.  I understand the "precedent" argument very well, and I agree with it.  Which again, is why I'm fighting the president on this.

              But I don't need to make hyperbolic statements to fight this, and I don't think it's useful.  People don't believe you when you do not review with some truth.  

              To say the Barack Obama is going to swallow Paul Ryan's budget whole, save for a couple of "sweeteners" is ridiculous, imo. And while he has disappointed many progressives and Democrats with his willingness to buy into the GOP deficit meme, his actions do not deserve the kind of comment I replied to.

              I repeat. He's not going to sign off on Paul Ryan's budget.  He has no interest in signing off on Paul Ryan's budget, and absolutely nothing to gain, if you want to be mercenary about it.

              "A typical vice of American politics is the avoidance of saying anything real on real issues." Theodore Roosevelt.

              by StellaRay on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 05:19:39 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I don't pay attention to Paul Ryan. (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                StellaRay, musiccitymollie

                I just focus on the Democrats and what they do and how they act.

                They're the only ones I maybe, and I say "maybe" have influence with.

                •  I get that, and I agree. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  gooderservice

                  I don't spend a minute trying to change a republican's mind.  We've got enough on our hands trying to find consensus amongst ourselves.  Not so much about policies and substance, but about how to get there.  The process.  That's what I find most arguments on this site to be about.

                  But my original comment here, that you responded to, was in response to a commenter who said Obama would probably buy Paul Ryan's budget with a few sweeteners.  Same commenter then got a long chain of responses in hearty but miserable agreement.

                  This to me is unfortunate, and does not reflect the state of things truthfully.  Hard to try to have influence with your fellow Democrats/progressives, to try to find consensus, when hot headed false commentary prevails.  

                  "A typical vice of American politics is the avoidance of saying anything real on real issues." Theodore Roosevelt.

                  by StellaRay on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 05:50:42 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Hear, hear, gooderservice. Repubs=distractions! NT (0+ / 0-)

                  Mollie

                  "If a dog won’t come to you after having looked you in the face, you should go home and examine your conscience.” -- Woodrow Wilson

                  hiddennplainsight

                  by musiccitymollie on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 05:57:57 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

          •  It's not "hyperbole"...it's a fucking FACT... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            vigilant meerkat

            He's already romancing the GOP House leaders...and his own fucking press secretary more or less confirms his positions.

            But hey, he's Obama...and all that...so "he's got this"...just like he had the fiscal cliff...and the public option...and a host of other things he sold us out on in the name of "bi-partisanship".

            It's really very difficult to have a reality-based conversation with people who go out of their way to stick their heads in the sand.

            Adequate health care should be a LEGAL RIGHT in the U.S without begging or bankruptcy. Until it is, we should not dare call our society civilized.

            by Love Me Slender on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 08:42:41 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  If he does, I will switch to Independent. (0+ / 0-)

          Democrats can kiss it!  I have waited thru 8 long years of Bush and 4 years of Obama.  To get kicked in the teeth?  I don't think so.  I am already sick of the rehash of Romney whining about losing and Ryan regurgitating the same old crap.  

          You don't  hear the media say ANYTHING about Ryan being part of the reason Romney lost do you?  They are afraid, because they are Republican's and they want Ryan to run later.  He was only on the ticket because the Teabagger wing insists on hooking a ball and chain to the Republican Presidential candidates.  It worked out well didn't it for McCain and Romney?  Just keep it up, Democrats will be the leadership, but the agenda will always still be the Right Wing agenda.  

          Brand away Republican's! The more you re-brand, the more lipstick we see!

          by Paddy999 on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 05:29:02 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  . (3+ / 0-)

      "Til you're so fucking crazy you can't follow their rules" John Lennon - Working Class Hero

      by Horace Boothroyd III on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 09:17:48 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  And most importantly - good man (28+ / 0-)

      Thom Hartmann said FDR did what he did by Executive order because he knew the Congress wouldn't support him.   Polls clearly show where people stand on Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid.  And what's Obama doing?  Ignoring the people who elected him and sucking up to corporations.  

      Bernie puts country before self, and  I hope Bernie kicks their Goliath asses.  I called Stabenow, Levin and Gary Peters and told them to keep their mitts off and to get their money back the people they gave it to - the war profiteers and banksters.  Pisses me off that they have the nerve to even think they can hand us their bill for the room they trashed; and we're suppose to take that.   Shared sacrifice my ass.  I'll sacrifice right after I benefit.

      What we need is a Democrat in the White House.

      by dkmich on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 09:21:12 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Senator Sanders is part of a group that (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        PSzymeczek, shaharazade, dkmich

        actually makes laws. The President's job is to carry them out, if possible. Some things are not possible, like prosecuting banks for fraud that has been made legal by Congress.

        The extent to which Congress makes naturally good behavior illegal and bad behavior legal is quite outrageous. How do they get away with it? By playing the prodigal son role and being not quite as bad as they could be.

        We organize governments to deliver services and prevent abuse.

        by hannah on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 02:00:12 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  The fraud the banks perpetrated was NOT legal. (3+ / 0-)

          It was blatantly illegal.   Surely you must read Taibbi or bobswern.  

          They aren't prosecuted because "they were afraid it would hurt the global economy".   Too big to fail and too big to jail.   Obama and Holder chose not to prosecute them or the torturers, and the economy was the excuse.   Reforms are still not in place.

          What we need is a Democrat in the White House.

          by dkmich on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 04:11:23 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  And now we run out the clock (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            dkmich

            The statutes of limitations are going to prevent prosecution of most of the crimes.

            They just had to sit on their hands for 5 years.

            My taste for vengeance doesn't have a time limit.


            The Fail will continue until actual torches and pitchforks are set in motion. - Pangolin@kunstler.com

            by No one gets out alive on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 06:04:23 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Don't believe what you like and disbelieve what (0+ / 0-)

            you don't like.
            The economy could not be the excuse, since the economy had already collapsed. Congress makes laws retroactive, but what has already happened cannot be used as what might happen. Instinct-driven people who live in an ineffable present and can't distinguish between past, present and future, may buy such an excuse, but it isn't logical. By legislating away restrictions, Congress made it possible to engage in predatory financial transactions akin to the wolf announcing he's going to eat red riding hood. For example, borrowers were induced to sign away their fifth and fourteenth amendment rights and to give the lender a power of attorney as a condition of getting the money. In other words, they were prepared to fail and the law let them do it.

            The law is a harsh mistress when she serves sadists.

            Waiver of Rights

            By execution of this Instrument Borrower expressly,

            (1) Acknowledges the Lender's Right to Accelerate the debt and the power of attorney given hereby to Lender to sell the premises by nonjudicial foreclosure upon default by borrower without any judicial hearing and without any notice other than such notice as is specifically required to be given under the provisions of said Deed to Secure Debt;

            (2)Waives all rights which Borrower may have under the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments to the Constitution of the United States, the various several states, the Constitution of the State of Georgia, or by reason of any other applicable law, to NOTICE AND TO JUDICIAL HEARING prior to the exercise by the lender of the right or remedy herein provided to Lender, except such notice as is specifically required to be provided in said Deed to Secure Debt;

            (3)Acknowledges that Borrower has read this deed and its provisions have been fully explained to Borrower and Borrower has been afforded the opportunity to consult with counsel of Borrower's choice prior to executing this deed;

            (4)Acknowledges that all Waives of the aforesaid rights of Borrower Have Been Made Knowingly, Intentionally and Willingly by Borrower as part of a bargain for loan transaction;

            (5)Agrees that Borrower's right to notice shall be limited to those rights to notice provided by this deed and no other; and

            (6)Agrees the provisions hereof are incorporated and made part of the Deed to Secure Debt.

            DO NOT SIGN THIS FORM UNTIL YOU HAVE READ OR HAD IT READ TO YOU; AND UNTIL YOU FULLY UNDERSTAND ITS MEANING AND AGREE TO ITS TERMS.

            What's the operational principle here? Informed consent. If one agrees to be abused, it's no longer abuse. It's the same principle used to justify denying volunteer military their human rights. In agreeing to die for their country, they are presumed to surrender their right to speech, association, bodily integrity, etc.

            We organize governments to deliver services and prevent abuse.

            by hannah on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 09:54:44 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  Exactly (17+ / 0-)

      how a balanced budget should be done with common sense and fair politicians like Bernie Sanders.  I grew up with politicians like Bernie Sanders on both sides.  He and others like Elizabeth Warren are truly what is good about this country.  Both parties could learn a lesson from good politicians that aren't always threatening the population with austerity while corruption continues to get worst.  Some normalacy in politics would be a welcome relief, the American people need a breather from fear, hate, and worry.

      "During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolution­ary act. " George Orwell

      by zaka1 on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 09:24:30 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Because Dems don't represent the vast majority (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      shaharazade

      Of Americans.

      They represent the wealthy and the wealthy, for the most part, don't want to pay taxes.

      The republicans also represent the wealthy and that's why they are always about no new taxes.

      Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends. - Gandalf the Grey

      by No Exit on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 10:25:45 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  "save", not "safe" in title (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    zaka1

    We all know they're already safe. :-)

    "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

    by kovie on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 09:10:53 AM PDT

  •  We work together to build it. Just because we (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Joan McCarter, blukat, quagmiremonkey

    end up with a great big pile of money, doesn't mean we are going to give it to the lazy rich grasshoppers.

    guns are fun v. hey buddy, watch what you are doing -- which side are you on?

    by 88kathy on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 09:13:32 AM PDT

  •  Somewhat misleading. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    VClib, lgmcp, alice kleeman

    The long-term problem with Medicare spending is so huge that "closing corporate loopholes" doesn't even begin to address the issue.  I've seen estimates that it realistically would raise, at MOST, $20 billion a year.  People need to read the Medicare Trustees Report (pdf here).

    This is therefore misleading:  

    "The alternative is not to go into a back room and negotiate with Boehner; it's to make our case to the American people," Sanders said. "I don't believe there's a red state in America where people believe you should cut Medicare, Social Security and veterans' benefits rather than doing away with corporate tax loopholes."
    That's a statement implying that if you do away with corporate loopholes, that's enough to keep Medicare as is.  That's misleading.  

    The long-term choice, in reality, is either (1) cut the growth in Medicare and Medicaid spending over the long term; or (2) over the long term, doing away with corporate loopholes PLUS making decisions to deny "extreme care" (end of life care) PLUS some kind of broad-based middle class tax increase, that raises a LOT of money, like a VAT tax, or, as Krugman put it, "death panels and sales taxes."  Krugman's 2010 statement here; 2013 video here.

    I always get very frustrated with those on the right who pretend we can address the long-term fiscal problems through spending cuts alone, as that is completely misleading.  But it is equally misleading to imply that we can solve the long term fiscal problems simply by raising taxes on "the rich and corporations."  Both are simply political positions, and neither is accurate.  

    I wish there were elected officials who would be honest with the American public about what it will cost ALL  of us if we want to keep Medicare and Medicaid as is.  The problem is that the American public wants to keep the growth in spending but wants somebody else (corporations or "the rich") to pay for it.  That's just unrealistic.  

    •  But there is no serious reform offered (9+ / 0-)

      If they were trying to improve the programs, I'd listen but they aren't.  They just want to cut the funding.  

      And if you stop funding the programs, the needs don't go away.  You force people to spend down their assets but they go on Medicaid.  Cut Medicaid and then what? Are you going to have seniors fighting with the mentally ill for beds at the county jail?  The mentally ill are the canary in the mine for what happens when you don't provide healthcare to vulnerable adults.

      People don't just drop dead when it's convenient.  And Boomers had fewer children and more divorces so Boomers are not going to have surplus caregivers to take them in when they run out of money.  

      You have to get the extreme PROFIT out of the system.  I have a hard time believing all that profit is coming with end of life care.  I think it's the test and procedure mills that are driving up the costs.

    •  Considering how the US spends nearly twice (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      No Exit, VClib

      the share of GDP on healthcare as compared to the rest of the developed world the problem can be solved entirely on the spending side.  

      The large cost savings don't come from paying less for the same goods and services, although this is a part.  The big cost savings come from not performing ineffective or low effective healthcare at government expense.  If people choose to purchase these healthcare treatments at their own expense they should be free to do so with their own spending.

      The most important way to protect the environment is not to have more than one child.

      by nextstep on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 10:05:53 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Respectfully, doctors in the US make many times (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        zaka1

        more than those in other OECD countries.

        So, yes, they can take a substantial haircut.

        You say:

        The big cost savings come from not performing ineffective or low effective healthcare at government expense.  If people choose to purchase these healthcare treatments at their own expense they should be free to do so with their own spending.
        Just curious--which procedures or treatments do you have in mind?

        Have a relative who suffered a bone fracture at age 89, and a broken hip at age 97.  Both required surgery.  She lived years after both fractures.

        Would you propose to deny her, or rather elderly folks like her, life- or pain-saving surgery to set her fractures, because of her age? [much like the President appears to suggest in the article below].

        Please read Bloomberg piece:  Obama Says Grandmother’s Hip Replacement Raises Cost Questions [Dateline:  April 29, 2009 18:00 EDT, by Hans Nichols].

        Mollie

        "If a dog won’t come to you after having looked you in the face, you should go home and examine your conscience.” -- Woodrow Wilson

        hiddennplainsight

        by musiccitymollie on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 10:29:18 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  All the governments with single payer have (4+ / 0-)

          either approval policies on these matters based upon medical data, such as the UK's NICE, or have a fixed level of funding for a community and let its medical community make the trade-offs between different patient treatments.

          The determination of which treatments are effective is driven by medical data and research.  The results of the data is very important.

          If a $200,000 treatment has a 2% rate of extending a quality life for six months, the cost of each success is $10 million.  The single payer healthcare governments of the world would not pay for this.  In these countries a person may pay for this with private insurance or other means.

          Medicare denies payment for some care, but authorizes payment for treatments far wider than other countries do.  Oncologists frequently run into Medicare denials for treatment as the treatment can be extremely costly, while extending life for only a few weeks or months.

          As far as doctors being paid too much, the relevant international measure is doctor pay divided by the average worker's pay.  In the US, primary care doctors are within international norms, specialists are not.

          The most important way to protect the environment is not to have more than one child.

          by nextstep on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 10:55:24 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  That's not what I've seen regarding OECD (0+ / 0-)

            comparisons of doctor's pay.  US primary care doctors' pay was MORE in line with the pay of their [primary care] cohorts in other OECD countries than were specialists, but were still paid substantially better than their OECD counterparts.

            All one need do is look at the charts for inequality in the OECD countries to know that this is true.  You probably know that the US is almost at the very top of the chart today (which wasn't the case 30-40 years ago).

            Of course, I figuring that Congress will finally take some measures to being to remedy this, when they take care of immigration issues.  I've read that the H-1B Visas will be increased exponentially with the new immigration laws.  This alone should hopefully bring down some of our medical costs, with the major influx of more healthcare providers (physicians, especially).

            I do agree that the UK does consider performing medical procedures on a case-by-case basis.  Please see my reply to VClib.

            I'm pushed for time now.  If I can locate my OECD article on physician pay, I'll provide you with a link.  I'm thinking that I didn't bookmark it, because I pretty much left healthcare issues 'behind' after the ACA passed.  But, when I've got more time to devote to a search, I'll see if I can locate the study that I read.

            Thanks for your reply.  Guess this is another case of having 'to agree, to disagree' on a couple of issues.  :-)

            Mollie

            "If a dog won’t come to you after having looked you in the face, you should go home and examine your conscience.” -- Woodrow Wilson

            hiddennplainsight

            by musiccitymollie on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 12:59:11 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  The relevant comparison of Doctor pay is the ratio (0+ / 0-)

              of Doctor pay to the average in the workforce for the country, or compared to university educated workers.

              One also needs to factor in that in the US, doctors pay for their education to a far greater extent than in other countries.

              The big doctor cost differential on this ratio basis is for specialists.  More highly skilled nurses are also more highly paid in the US on this basis.  Also did I mention, hospital administrators are more highly paid (but as their numbers are small, their net impact is small).

              The most important way to protect the environment is not to have more than one child.

              by nextstep on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 01:12:59 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  That may be the one relevant to you. ;-) (0+ / 0-)

                Seriously, I don't have time today to search for the table that I saw.

                A quick search brought this 2007 Congressional Report up which actually states that:

                Physician Compensation Worldwide
                From a global perspective, who's earning more - American or foreign physicians?

                By UO Staff | Fall 2009 | Vital Stats

                United States general practitioners and specialists are among the highest paid physicians in the world, according to a 2007 Congressional Research Service report.

                For now, I'll leave it at that.  I have to post on three other websites, including my own diary.

                I'm sure that we could both produce reports that support our contentions.

                Like I said:  Agree to disagree. ;-)

                [You might notice that this came from an online physician's job bank and magazine.  Don't know what reason they would have to fabricate statistics.]

                Mollie

                "If a dog won’t come to you after having looked you in the face, you should go home and examine your conscience.” -- Woodrow Wilson

                hiddennplainsight

                by musiccitymollie on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 04:38:38 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  pediatrician across the street (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            musiccitymollie

            makes > 600k p.a.  

            do you know what the formula is for dividing md pay against average worker?  that part remains unclear in your post.

            Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, first make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounding yourself with a-holes - William Gibson. (-9.75 / -9.05)

            by doesnotworkorplaywellwithothers on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 01:25:42 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  mollie - the rest of world with tax funded (0+ / 0-)

          single payer plans would not have had the government plan pay for your relative's surgery. She could have paid privately, but the number of procedures available decline at 70, 80, & 90. While it was not the case with your relative, who lived several more years, the math doesn't work  in a tax supported system when we spend half or more of lifetime medical costs in the last six months of life.  

          "let's talk about that"

          by VClib on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 11:08:36 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Respectfully, some systems do pay for surgeries (3+ / 0-)

            like my relative had.

            Called a British friend who's lived in the US for twelve years now.  Her Grandmother has had surgery for fracture as result of a fall.  And her family did not pay for it.  What she does say, is that there is 'a look at' the overall health of an elderly individual, in situations where surgery is being considered for individuals at very advanced ages.  Apparently her Grandmother was quite healthy, in general.

            My relative's doctor was amazed at how well she withstood the surgical procedure, one day after her 97th birthday.  She passed 'with flying colors.'  [In the last twenty years of her life, she had only been prescribed one maintenance drug for several months--a $10 a month blood thinner.]  She never even used her Part D drug insurance, (she never met the deductible) even though she carried it from the time of its availability until she died.

            Would you happen to have any info [links] on specific 'single-payer' plans which carte blanche deny healthcare or surgeries to elderly patients, regardless of their overall health?

            Hey, I have no bone to pick with you personally, VC.  But, if it is correct that 'the rest of the world' is literally allowing their elderly to die, or live in wracking pain without surgeries, which in my opinion would amount to something much more immoral than euthanasia, I'd have to say that I'm NOT IN FAVOR of a 'single-payer' plan.

            And I've never heard this.  I've always thought that cases were decided on a individual, case-by-case basis, based upon each individual patient's general health and particular circumstances.

            And all the "hype" about the last six months of life being costly--I guess I miss what is so unusual about that.  Naturally, when an individual is terminally ill (and last time I checked--that's at the end of life), they might run up higher than usual medical bills.

            But, again, not everyone does.  My relative died in her sleep, peacefully.  Still, not having been treated for any disease or disorder.  It was presumed that she passed away from heart failure, because of her age.

            The ONLY thing that Medicare EVER paid for was the two surgeries and therapy following the surgeries, in the slightly more than 35 years that she paid her premiums.

            At any rate, thanks for your reply.  Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, on this one.  ;-)


            Mollie

            "If a dog won’t come to you after having looked you in the face, you should go home and examine your conscience.” -- Woodrow Wilson

            hiddennplainsight

            by musiccitymollie on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 12:36:22 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  withholding care, and even food, from the elderly (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              musiccitymollie

              is a big issue in the u.k. right now.

              that said, whatever other countries do, our nation's eventual and imo, inevitable, single payer care does not have to look like any other countries.  so i wouldn't condemn thevery notion of single payer, based on what others do.

              this'll chill you to the marrow though, if you read through to the end:
              http://www.telegraph.co.uk/...

              Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, first make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounding yourself with a-holes - William Gibson. (-9.75 / -9.05)

              by doesnotworkorplaywellwithothers on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 01:32:13 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Thanks, DNWOPWWO for the link to the Telegraph (1+ / 0-)

                piece.  I'll read it a bit later this evening.  And, I am aware that the Brits are "partially privatizing" their own healthcare system, following the US' lead.  

                Why I can't imagine, with the pathetic outcomes that we have here (i.e., high numbers of uninsured, etc.).  My British friend has excellent healthcare stateside, so she no longer participates in the British system.  She is also concerned at the direction that the conservative government (with help from the so-called 'liberals') is taking their national healthcare system.

                Actually, I meant to say (and should have, so let me correct myself now) that I would not be in favor of a single-payer system, or plan unless the elderly Americans are looked at on a case-by-case basis when considering surgery and/or other life saving or pain-sparing procedures, etc.  All  pertinent information should be considered, and carte blanche denials of healthcare or procedures, etc., should not be allowed based upon "age."

                Mollie

                "If a dog won’t come to you after having looked you in the face, you should go home and examine your conscience.” -- Woodrow Wilson

                hiddennplainsight

                by musiccitymollie on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 02:40:55 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  absolutely. i agree. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  musiccitymollie

                  from what little i know from my friends in the uk, people are ready to go to the barricades on this issue.  

                  one of the most amazing things about living in the uk is the exorbitant taxes on absolutely everything it seems - most of the $7+ per gallon cost of petrol is taxation, which i've been told goes mostly to the NHS, which was started with funds from the Marshall Plan, i.e. we gave them the $$$$.  People have payroll deductions taken from their paychecks to support the NHS, the way we do medicare, but at a much greater percentage ...
                  so the question for me when i;m  in the uk is 'where does all this money go?'  how can the nhs be in such crisis?

                  that said, i actually wonder about the standards of the nhs... i develped rickets there from lack of sunshine, and when i couldn't get a doctor who could figure it out, i diagnosed and treated myself online.  i've met 3 women who had post-partum depression, and one with clear post-partum psychosis, and the nhs nurse/midwifes seemed oblivious to it.  cancers we now considered successfully treatable are still a death sentence there.  i've seen women walking around with varicose veins that made me squirm with sympathy pain.  women in their fifties bent over in half with severe osteoporosis. i could go on and on.

                  but i also was once in a support group in the affluent SF bay area, for adult daughters who were their mothers caretakers  in the finally years of their lives.  sheeeee -it!  the stories we shared of straight out medical negligence  and how we had to fight for everything we got for our parents just because they were elderly.    (YES! i'm looking at YOU,STANFORD UNIVERSITY HOSPITAL, you death trap!)  every single one of us dozen or so women, was able to tell two of three stories apiece of  'medical age-ism'.  

                  that's why i'm taking my cue from your relative, or from my own great grandmother, who died at 113 (and it took a squad of nazis to do  it.). i don't want to be around all thos ethought patterns that say decline & chronic disease is inevitable etc.  
                   

                  Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, first make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounding yourself with a-holes - William Gibson. (-9.75 / -9.05)

                  by doesnotworkorplaywellwithothers on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 03:35:44 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •   mollie - to date the partial privatization in the (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  musiccitymollie

                  UK is to allow people to private pay for service outside the NHS. I think this was smart because it allowed the harshest critics of the NHS to just drop out of the system and pay for healthcare themselves. They still pay for the NHS for everyone else with their taxes. It's kind of like public and private schools in the US. Everyone pays for public schools and a small minority also pay to send their children to private schools.

                  "let's talk about that"

                  by VClib on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 05:29:33 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I'll have to think a bit on 'It's kind of like (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    VClib

                    public and private schools in the US. Everyone pays for public schools and a small minority also pay to send their children to private schools."

                    I'm a bit too rushed to contemplate this tonight, much less present a cogent argument for or against it.

                    But, I lean toward not liking a 'split' system because of what this Administration has done in the area of privatizing our public school systems.

                    I'm in the state that received $501 million dollars in Race To The Top grant money to further achieve privatization of public schools.  And it's worked.  We have more educators in our family than we have fingers (from principals to college professors, including one Dean), and they all think that this Administration's 'school reform' is a disaster.

                    One of our properties adjoins one of the largest churches in the state, which before the ink was dry, built a church school (which just opened this past August), with students attending with our tax dollars paying for their fundamentalist education with publicly funded 'school vouchers.'

                    The bulk of the rest of our schools will be charters (schools funded with public money, but run as private entities administratively, normally without union representation).

                    It has been a travesty from the 'git go,' and has decimated our public school system.

                    And I imagine that just like this Race To The Top campaign allowed the camel's nose under the tent, which then led to flat out tax-funded vouchers (instead of just charters, which are bad enough, since they destroy public schools), the NHS may not allow public funding for the private pay for services now, but just watch, in time they'll also have taxpayers foot that bill.

                    Then, it'll just be a two or three tier system, with the poor getting next to no healthcare, and the wealthy getting excellent healthcare.

                    IOW--just like we have here in the good ol' USA, LOL!

                    But again, I'll save that argument for another day.  And wish the best for the Brits.

                    Mollie

                    "If a dog won’t come to you after having looked you in the face, you should go home and examine your conscience.” -- Woodrow Wilson

                    hiddennplainsight

                    by musiccitymollie on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 06:36:46 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

            •  mollie - you are right my statement was too broad (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              musiccitymollie

              Each case is decided on it's own merits, but the standard is much stricter in single payer plans than it is for Medicare. The template for looking at these cases does change with each decade of life in a single payer plan. Within Medicare the physician has much more flexibility. There is no doubt that there needs to be more controls on end of life care. Medicare spends tens of thousands to extend life by a few months. While those months can be precious, the system can't continue to absorb the cost. My mother died of brain cancer and Medicare paid for a second brain surgery that gave her a few more months. In retrospect my siblings and I all agree we should have let her go rather than having the second surgery. I am sure the surgery, and hospitalization, cost more than $75,000.

              "let's talk about that"

              by VClib on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 05:25:55 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Thanks for the clarification on that point, VC. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                VClib

                Done the 'right way,' I suppose that I could live with a very 'conservative form' of rationing (i.e., being reluctant to deny care).

                One of the physicians who operated on my relative actually laughed and said that all things considered, she was in overall better shape than he.  And I am quite aware that she was the exception, not the rule.  To live literally a 'century,' and not develop any disease or conditions that required maintenance medications, is beyond remarkable.

                But it does happen.  And it would not be moral, IMHO, to deny an individual in her physically/medically/mentally sound condition, healthcare.

                Thanks for the discussion. ;-)

                Mollie

                "If a dog won’t come to you after having looked you in the face, you should go home and examine your conscience.” -- Woodrow Wilson

                hiddennplainsight

                by musiccitymollie on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 06:46:39 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  I agree with Mollie (5+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            zaka1, srkp23, musiccitymollie, stagemom, VClib

            My mother is very similar to the relative she describes.  She's in good general health, but she also had surgery for a serious arm fracture when she was 88.  

            She is now 92 and still living independently with virtually no additional cost to Medicare in the last 4 years.  Without the surgery she would have spent the last 4 years in a nursing home and in constant pain.

            •  your mum, and mollie's relative are (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              srkp23, greenbell, musiccitymollie

              the women i'm modelling my life on, you can be sure of that!

              how great is it to still be living independently at 92?  that is richness!

              now, if you'll excuse me, i'm going to go take a long long aerobic hike around the hillsides....

              Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, first make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounding yourself with a-holes - William Gibson. (-9.75 / -9.05)

              by doesnotworkorplaywellwithothers on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 01:38:49 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  Exactly (0+ / 0-)

        Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends. - Gandalf the Grey

        by No Exit on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 10:29:49 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  We don't have a Medicare problem (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      musiccitymollie, jeopardydd

      We have a cost of health care problem. The most cost-effective way to deal with health care costs would be to expand Medicare to cover everyone!

      +++ The law is a weapon used to bludgeon us peasants into submission. It is not to be applied to the monied elite.

      by cybersaur on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 02:20:57 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  You're wrong again coffee (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      jeopardydd

      Bernie:

      "I don't believe there's a red state in America where people believe you should cut Medicare, Social Security and veterans' benefits rather than doing away with corporate tax loopholes."
      Coffee:
      That's a statement implying that if you do away with corporate loopholes, that's enough to keep Medicare as is.
      Completely wrong. That statement does not, in any way, imply "that if you do away with corporate loopholes, that's enough to keep Medicare as is."

      Try again.

    •  How about taxing the rich (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      greenbell

      starting at  250,000 and taxing corporation instead of  giving them government subsidies.  Big oil/gas, the TBTF banks, Big Ag, Big Pharma and the useless health insurance/extortion monopoly make a obscene profit from our public monies. This is reverse socialism. Why the fuck should the government function as their ATM? Maybe raising taxes on the rich and closing tax loopholes wouldn't be enough but if we had an economy that wasn't by design and intent for profits of the obscenely rich and getting richer.

      A health care system that wasn't for only for corporate profit and actually was affordable to people would certainly make the public social programs we pay taxes for solvent as well as allowing the tax base to increase.  

      How about we end these neocon  for profit endless wars? Our 'defense' budget is 8 times bigger then all the other countries combined    Or actually trust bust and really reform and regulate these TGTF entities that do nothing for the economy we all have to live and work in?

      Jobs, real ones that actually paid people enough money to live on would also work. No more tax incentives for outsourcing to corporations who need a floating global cheap source of labor.

      Debt for ordinary people so that Jimmie Dimon can say 'That's why I'm richer then you'. Let them get the from the fraudsters that busted the economy to begin with. Our 'defense' budget is 8 times bigger then all the other countries combined. This is not what a just equitable economy or a democracy looks like.    

                 

  •  Bernie Sanders (9+ / 0-)

    is a hero, and a brilliant pol.

    If anything, he's fighting for a public Democratic Party stance that will do wonders in helping to stave off a Republican Senate takeover.

    As opposed to a "Grand Bargain", which would be probably be the biggest non-Movement Conservative voter turn-out suppressor in modern American history.

    Nobody votes for Democrats for social safety net cuts.

    And they sure as shit don't vote for Democrats for social safety net cuts they don't want or support that are offered up to get Republicans to support their own previously held tax code reform policies and positions. 1990's era conservatism is not liberal or moderate because the GOP went batshit insane. Anymore than eating crayons and paint chips is suddenly more nutritious because your old neighbors have been replaced by some crazy assholes who came in to your apartment building eating poison and lead shavings off the floor. All you have to do to make something conservative "leftist" is for President Obama or the Democrats to be willing to put them in place. That's it.

    What a dream. To get conservative policy with Democratic Party fingerprints all over the crime scene when the public finally gets red in the face mad going into an off-year election where the Democrats are on the defensive in the Senate.

    What do Democrats get?

    Besides Senator Ted Cruz with a gavel and the high profile Senate committee chair it goes with, that is.

    They don't get deficit reduction, because the GOP is a bad faith outfit.
    They don't get to "take x,y, and z off the table. See above about the GOP.

    Screwed.

    Who cuts the first "The Democrat Party/Obama Social Security Cuts" if there is a Chained CPI in place? All the big bullshit outfits. Certainly FreedomWorks and American Crossroads will embrace the meme that you have to vote for Republicans who hate Social Security to fight Democrats to "defend" the social safety net if they stupidly cut a deal with bad faith shitbags to "save" the programs. There is no taking anything off the table with bad faith Movement Conservatives.

    So what do Democrats get?  

    To feel good about how noble they are, and above the fray they are, as they get trounced by the GOP, who then turn around in all 50 states and run hard against "the Democrat Party Social Security Cuts", and on any other social safety net cuts that they voted for because the Democrats put their fingerprints all over it and the Village will help them do it?

    There is nothing in a "Grand Bargain" for Democrats but a great clusterfuck in 2014 for a reward. Nobody gives a shit about the deficit. Least of all the GOP. It's a fucking scam to get more tax cuts down the line. Bad faith is how they roll. Bad faith like policies that only stopped being conservative and became "Bad" when the Great Socialist Kenyan Usurper embraced being willing to cut a big deal with them on the deficit that they don't really give a rat's ass about.

    I bet Simpson and Bowles don't wait a week before releasing a "new" report calling for more austerity if a "Grand Bargain" ever goes down.

    I am from the Elizabeth Warren and Darcy Burner wing of the Democratic Party

    by LeftHandedMan on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 09:43:54 AM PDT

    •  Respectfully, Bowles-Simpson already did that. I (4+ / 0-)

      appreciate Sanders efforts.

      However, I'll applaud him, if and when he gets results.

      In the meantime, I'll be posting phone numbers for Capitol Hill and the White House.

      Please folks, call the WH, your Senators and your Rep.

      Time is of the essence.  :-)

      Mollie

      "If a dog won’t come to you after having looked you in the face, you should go home and examine your conscience.” -- Woodrow Wilson

      hiddennplainsight

      by musiccitymollie on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 10:17:34 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  what you said. Brilliantly put, IMHO. (0+ / 0-)

      nothing here for dem's but defeat, humiliation, and exile.


      You can't be bipartisan with people drilling holes in your boat.
      Either they are being incredibly naive or cynically calculating. Pol's are not naive. Therefore, prepare for thunderous defeats in 2014 for all the reasons you said.

      Fear is the mind-killer - Frank Herbert, Dune

      by p gorden lippy on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 01:39:06 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  ARGHH Ed Rendell again (8+ / 0-)

    Get him off MSNBC!!  He's a stooge.

  •  honest to god, i think if people (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    p gorden lippy, tb mare

    don't start getting what they need and want from this government, pretty soon they're just going to start taking it.

    then you'll see something that will make OWS look like a obsequious request.

    Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, first make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounding yourself with a-holes - William Gibson. (-9.75 / -9.05)

    by doesnotworkorplaywellwithothers on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 01:17:12 PM PDT

  •  Dear, dear Bernie. I really, truly hope the fix (0+ / 0-)

    is not in and a done deal. I really hope there is is a way to halt this cave-in.

    Here I thought naively that we won the damned election. If the gop wants to play hardball - which they obviously do - then Bernie's way is the only way to go.

    I'm having flashbacks to first term cave-ins here, and I don't like this feeling one bit. I've been a low-participation kossack recently, in part due to a sinking feeling of impending sell-out. From DOJ to SS and Medicare, to no bright line around the benefits we have already earned and paid for. The bitterness is starting to come back, and I hope more dem's will get this message and sweep to dem majority in all 3 branches in 2014. It's the only way to do it.

    They've lost the initiative on TBTF, now with the GOP announcing their new "too small to save" meme, right after DOJ threw up its hands in defeat. And with the noise against targeted drones, etc. Not a good time to be a "moderate" (i.e., LOSER) Democrat. More Bernies and more Elizabeth Warrens please!

    Fear is the mind-killer - Frank Herbert, Dune

    by p gorden lippy on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 01:31:53 PM PDT

  •  I'm confused. How is this pragmatic? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    p gorden lippy, quagmiremonkey

    I mean, if our betters have told us anything over the last four-plus years, it's that to be pragmatic you have to tack right at every possible opportunity in order to distance yourself from the hippies so that the adults in the room can get things done.

    Oh wait!! I was thinking of Pragmatism™. This is actual pragmatism! I was beginning to forget what that looked like when an elected progressive does it :-)

    Code Monkey like freedom / Code Monkey like peace and justice too
    Code Monkey very nerdy man / With big warm fuzzy bleeding heart
    Code Monkey like you!

    Formerly known as Jyrinx.

    by Code Monkey on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 01:31:55 PM PDT

    •  Hah. no. (0+ / 0-)

      We told you not to kill the healthcare bill, while you promised us we'd have time to come back and do it again at a later date. How's that looking... would today have been good for you all? The pragmatic Affiordable Care Act got $1.03 trillion in new Medicaid spending over this and the next nine years. $1,030,000,000,000... you're welcome for that right wing horribleness we subjected you all to.

      You Hate Cuts 2 Medicare? Do You Love Obamacare? It added $1 trillion to Medicaid.

      by CornSyrupAwareness on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 01:52:04 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Thank you, Bernie, (4+ / 0-)

    ...always correct.

    "The war against Bradley Manning is a war against us all." Chris Hedges

    by dharmasyd on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 01:32:58 PM PDT

  •  Bernie is my leader! He speaks for me!!! (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    greenbell, tb mare, alice kleeman
  •  Howard Fineman on "The Cycle" today (2+ / 0-)

    said he believes Obama will put Chained SS cola adjustments on the table if the Repugs agree to revenue. He thought Medicare would take some cuts too, but he did not see how Obama could put Medicaid on the table as its central to Obama care. He said he sees no "big deal".

  •  Compromise (0+ / 0-)

    I am wealthy and healthy and will probably work past 65.  I do not see the harm in delaying SS benefits for wealthy people.  If that is an offer that can bring about an agreement i would support it.  Saying only tax revenue makes Democrats seem as inflexible as the Republicans.

  •  The Cons obstruct to obstruct. (0+ / 0-)

    Resistance makes them feel free. Not doing what someone else wants makes them feel important and free.

    The binary mind recognizes only two options. One is to go along with what's on offer and the other is to resist or reject. It's not possible to compromise with someone who not only can't see a middle way, but needs to be negative to be independent. Such people just have to be ignored. They are not principled. They are self-centered, like a spinning top.

    We organize governments to deliver services and prevent abuse.

    by hannah on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 01:51:42 PM PDT

  •  Bernie (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    alice kleeman

    I'd like to know what he would do if he was prez and could get 5 pieces of legislation passed.  I always look forward to his emails.

    The legs of the crane have become short in the summer rain. Buson

    by Travelin Man on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 02:06:39 PM PDT

  •  All along, all the Democrats have needed to do (8+ / 0-)

    is what Bernie calls for: embracing the will of the people and forcing the Republicans' hand.

    I'm anxious for the day they heed his call.

    "Woe to those who make unjust laws,
    to those who issue oppressive decrees, to deprive the poor of their rights
    and withhold justice from the oppressed of my people, 
making widows their prey
    and robbing the fatherless."

    by Snarky McAngus on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 02:23:02 PM PDT

  •  It would be a great idea (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    greenbell

    If he could be certain that the mushy middle, that is, the "moderates" from both sides of the aisle don't sabotage their efforts. That is, the Dems that continue to court Repubs at the sacrifice of their party's platforms and the Repubs on  the other side that pretend they could actually be reasoned with but keep moving the goal posts until you recognize that your starting point is to the right of what they started with. What I never understand is why Dems don't call  them out. Make them as uncomfortable as Repubs do when one of their party shows a glimmer of sanity.

  •  There are some good Dems, (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    greenbell, alice kleeman

    but the leadership? Harry Reid? Steny Hoyer? Chuck Schumer?

    We're fucked.

    The GOP can't win on ideas. They can only win by lying, cheating, and stealing. So they do.

    by psnyder on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 02:29:41 PM PDT

  •  Here's how a Democratic cave starts (3+ / 0-)

    Greg Sargent, of the Washington Post, interviewed Sanders yesterday and wound up perplexed.
    Wh...wh...what would happen if the Democrats actually stood their ground? That's what really scared Greg.

    I asked Sanders if he would filibuster any grand bargain that cuts entitlement benefits. “It’s more than just the filibuster,” he said. “That’s a one day tactic. This is about rallying the American people and winning.” He predicted liberals in the Senate (Jeff Merkley, Sherrod Brown, and Elizabeth Warren come to mind) would likely band together to adopt a range of tactics to block such a grand bargain. “Filibustering may be part of it,” he said.
    It’s still unclear to me what the endgame would look like if liberals stick with such a strategy.
    And that's how a Democratic cave starts.
    Folks like Greg Sargent just can't fathom a good outcome for Democrats standing their ground. It's guys Greg Sargent that hold back real progress.
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/...
    •  Why don't you fill us in then (0+ / 0-)

      What does it look like? How do we stop this from happening?

      Republicans want to replace the sequester with cuts to Obamacare and Dodd Frank, Dems want to replace it by closing loopholes and cutting subsidies, Obama wants that and offers the SS CPI instead of the Obamacare and Dodd Frank cuts. How do you square this circle better than Greg S. did?

      You Hate Cuts 2 Medicare? Do You Love Obamacare? It added $1 trillion to Medicaid.

      by CornSyrupAwareness on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 02:45:06 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Read what Bernie said - duh. nt (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        quagmiremonkey, greenbell
        •  I read it and the sequester still exists (0+ / 0-)

          How can you mock Greg Sargent for not seeing a resolution when you don't have one yourself? Bernie says he and others won't allow the CPI cuts, that's great! But that only tells us what won't be replacing the sequester. What will replace it? That's what Sargent can't see. And you can't either. What reason do Republicans have to trade the huge cuts to government that are in place for closing loopholes that tax corporations more? The goodness of their hearts?!

          You Hate Cuts 2 Medicare? Do You Love Obamacare? It added $1 trillion to Medicaid.

          by CornSyrupAwareness on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 03:17:09 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  You didn't read and absorb (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            greenbell, musiccitymollie
            So realistically, isn’t the choice between a deal or sequestration limbo, with future budgets configured around lower spending levels, damaging the economy?
            Sanders insists to me that this framing — which I had adopted — is the wrong way to look at this fight. Instead, he says Dems must build a coalition to leverage public opinion to force Republicans to accept a resolution that combines judicious spending cuts with new revenues from the rich and corporations — while preserving entitlement benefits.
            “It’s a question of making Republicans an offer they can’t refuse,” Sanders tells me. “Their position is no more revenues. You and I know that is not the position of the American people. One in four corporations doesn’t pay any taxes. What Democrats and progressives should say is, `Sorry, we’re not going to balance the budget on the backs of the vulnerable.’” Sanders described the idea of cutting education, Social Security, Medicare and veterans’ benefits as an “obscenity.”
            It's right there in Greg's flummoxed article.
            Anybody could see that - except Greg and you.
            And that's what's sad - folks read Greg's limp and misguided article and think it actually makes sense.
            That's how a Democratic cave starts.
            •  Welcome to politics (0+ / 0-)

              This must be your first day. Republicans are going to give up cuts for tax increases because the public says so.

              This is how a Democratic cave starts, their base goes crazy because Dems didn't live up to their insane expectations, the base spends their time talking shit and giving up instead of organizing and John Boehner laughs all the way to the bank.

              You Hate Cuts 2 Medicare? Do You Love Obamacare? It added $1 trillion to Medicaid.

              by CornSyrupAwareness on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 04:26:30 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Your viewpoint got us into this trouble (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                quagmiremonkey

                The idea that we have to cave on issues that public overwhelming supports is simply out of touch with the real world.

                Obama won the 2012 election because he adopted the populist rhetoric of the base. The base you deride.

                Did you see the last election? Did you happen to catch the debates or were you busy appeasing some Republican neighbors? Did you see the first debate where Obama took your flaccid appeasement approach and got his clock cleaned?

                Over and over, when the Democrats stick to the issues that the public overwhelming support they win. When Democrats get into trouble is when they cower and hide because those big mean Republicans might not agree.

                John Boehner laughs when the Democrats give him what he wants - remember when he got 98% because of your approach?

                You need to start living in the real world instead of Neville Chamberlain land.

                Finally - you never even bothered to acknowledge that you were wrong in your original post when you said that Sanders hadn't offered an alternative to the sequester. But that's no surprise - there's obviously a lot you don't get.

                •  You're close to getting HR'd (0+ / 0-)

                  calling me a Nazi appeaser. I'm sorry you don't understand this debate, don't take it out on me.

                  Here's my original comment.. I never said Bernie didn't have an alternative. I asked and I continue to ask how that works to end the sequester. Your only pathetic answer is that public pressure flips Republicans against everything they believe. A global economic collapse couldn't convince them to regulate Wall Street at all, and this is going to get them to change their stripes? Go sell crazy somewhere else, we're all stocked up here.

                  You Hate Cuts 2 Medicare? Do You Love Obamacare? It added $1 trillion to Medicaid.

                  by CornSyrupAwareness on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 05:24:27 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Respectfullly, you blame economic global collapse (0+ / 0-)

                    on the Republican Party?

                    As I recall, it was President Clinton who signed off on repealing the Glass-Steagall Act.  There's most definitely blame to go around, on that one.  ;-)

                    Mollie

                    "If a dog won’t come to you after having looked you in the face, you should go home and examine your conscience.” -- Woodrow Wilson

                    hiddennplainsight

                    by musiccitymollie on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 08:23:57 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  No I didn't say that (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      musiccitymollie

                      I said the collapse wasn't enough to change their views, the collapse was major public pressure to go against their ideology, and it still did nothing to change their views on regulations, the size of banks, the role of government etc. So, if a global financial collapse couldn't pressure them to change their views, why would this comparatively minor episode of pressure get them to bail on their beloved ideology?

                      PS: Last week I said Clinton helped rip this nation to shreds when referring to deregulation of wall street. Of course it was a Republican idea, Gramm Leach Bliley were all Republicans, and it did pass with a veto proof majority, but BC did approve as did most of the Dems in the Congress.

                      You Hate Cuts 2 Medicare? Do You Love Obamacare? It added $1 trillion to Medicaid.

                      by CornSyrupAwareness on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 09:12:15 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                  •  Try the decafé (0+ / 0-)

                    and stop threatening folks with stupid overblown HR fantasies.
                    Just because you can't keep track of what is going on in posts and articles doesn't mean you get to threaten people.

                    Calling you a Nazi appeaser? HA! Talk about selling crazy.

                    I never said Bernie didn't have an alternative.
                    Bernie says he and others won't allow the CPI cuts, that's great! But that only tells us what won't be replacing the sequester. What will replace it?
                    I think it's pretty sad to not even be able to keep track of what you yourself said - let alone others. And yet there you sit. Proclaiming yourself as the grand poobah of politics.

                    Bwaaahaha!

                    •  I never said Bernie didn't have an alternative. (0+ / 0-)

                      I just said it wouldn't work.

                      I take that Nazi shit seriously, my family knows firsthand about appeasement. And it didn't have shit to do with the first Obama debate or not getting the public option that middle class and rich white progressives threw a year of temper tantrums over.

                      The Sanders Sequester People Pressure Republicans Surrender option relies on Republicans signing up for a big increase in government (reversing the sequester), in exchange for big tax increases (through closing loopholes). No matter how you distract yourself, the onus is still on you and Bernie to explain why the fuck they would ever do that.

                      I'll make you a bet, if your big plan works by Sept 1, I'll close this account and make my new name here "CaptCrunchWasRight" but if you're wrong and Republicans don't give in to the magic of public pressure, you gotta create a new account with a real breakfast for a name.. Steak&Eggs or BaconBreakfastBurrito?

                      You Hate Cuts 2 Medicare? Do You Love Obamacare? It added $1 trillion to Medicaid.

                      by CornSyrupAwareness on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 10:09:55 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  You are so much fun (0+ / 0-)

                        when you foam at the mouth like that.
                        I just love your rambling, incoherent posts.
                        Seems like you wander from post to post on this thread constructing straw men, spewing nonsense and pissing people off.
                        Good luck with that you political genius.

                        Bwaaahaha!

    •  But that's what they want him to do. His (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Capt Crunch

      lack of demand for standing up for the people, gives Dems "cover" when they fail to act.

      Take it to the bank---there won't be a filibuster.  And if there is, I'll gladly 'eat crow.'  And I'll even come looking for you, CC.  :-D

      If Dem Leadership had any real concerns about the legislative process, the Senate would have stood its ground weeks ago on the filibuster.  

      Bear in mind, folks like Sargent are part of the 'Washington Kabuki Theater.'

      It's media like him that allow Dems (and Repubs, when we're talking 'conservative' media) to take a 'duck and cover' position on so many issues.  

      And don't think that Dems don't thank him for it.

      Cynicism in Washington abounds!

      Mollie

      "If a dog won’t come to you after having looked you in the face, you should go home and examine your conscience.” -- Woodrow Wilson

      hiddennplainsight

      by musiccitymollie on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 03:24:28 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I signed the (4+ / 0-)

    Repeal the Sequester petition referenced by Digby and you should too...

    Senator Sanders, Rep Conyers, Grayson have a tall order, as they are not just fighting the right - but too many Democrats and obviously the media, who don't take the social safety net seriously and are counting on those not covered to die before this becomes an issue.  But this fight is important, and reflective of what kind of people we want to be.  

  •  Sanders makes obvious that Obama is deluded... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    quagmiremonkey

    ...full of shit, or both. Does he really thinks his legacy will be honorable if he is the one who trades (in any measure or way)New Deal and Great Society social insurance achievements for deficit reduction after 30 years of Republican class war in the form of tax cuts and deficit/debt-jacking?

    If he doesn't think that why is he bothering with grand bargaining instead of taking the Sanders approach?

  •  Calgary Cruz Says: Here's your asprin, Bactine, (0+ / 0-)

    a band-aid, and a can of Fancy Feast.  We Republicans believe there is nothing to good for you seniors!

    There is no hell on earth appropriate enough for those who would promote the killing of another person, in the name of a god.

    by HarryParatestis on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 03:07:07 PM PDT

  •  The back rooms (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    musiccitymollie

    Nothing good comes out of those back rooms with Boehner.

    "The alternative is not to go into a back room and negotiate with Boehner; it's to make our case to the American people," Sanders said.
    But is this pie in the sky thinking?   I haven't seen any sign that this will happen. The days of laws being written in House committees seems to be over, or at least the big pieces of legislation.  They seem to be written by think tanks, pushed by the White House through the Senate, and unrelated House bills are gutted and replaced with the bill crafted in the Senate via the substitution method.

    Maybe I'm just not paying attention well enough, but I can't think of one big bill that has come through Congress via the traditional (Constitutional) method in the past four years, maybe longer.


    "Justice is a commodity"

    by joanneleon on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 05:58:53 PM PDT

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