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I was rather shocked when my diary yesterday was attacked as "sick".  Evidently speaking about our violent culture stimulates violence in response.  I think that anyone who sees us as a nonviolent culture or justifies our culture's love affair with violence by pointing out that there is also violence elsewhere in the world needs to do some serious thinking.

Some of us mourn by talking about the roots of what caused our mourning.  To see that as sick is but another form of rather dangerous denial.  Read on below.  I'll make this short for I am still shaken deeply.

I wrote yesterday as a marathoner, a political activist, a scientist studying the origins of the flaws in our way of approaching the world and the resultant destruction, and as a rather shaken human being.  To be attacked for my thoughts was a shock.  There are those here on Kos who can not tolerate opposing views and HR indiscriminantly if someone writes something  they disagree with.  If anything is "sick" that is.  If anything is counterproductive, that is.  As the author of over 600 diaries, scores of papers in refereed journals, books, etc I certainly am aware that many disagree with me.  To use that disagreement to HR and try to censor me is a bit much.  I was given a lifetime membership here because some of you like what I have to say even when you disagree.  I thank you for that not so much for my sake but for the sake of this site and its availability as a place to disagree civilly.

Poll

the abuse of HRs

17%5 votes
7%2 votes
3%1 votes
46%13 votes
10%3 votes
14%4 votes

| 28 votes | Vote | Results

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (12+ / 0-)

    An idea is not responsible for who happens to be carrying it at the moment. It stands or falls on its own merits.

    by don mikulecky on Tue Apr 16, 2013 at 11:24:17 AM PDT

  •  I wasn't there, but looks to me that what was (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Susan G in MN, Batya the Toon, Brecht

    described as 'sick' wasn't your diary but using the event to call Obama 'clueless'.

    •  and that deserves HR? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      qofdisks, churchylafemme

      has he a clue?

      An idea is not responsible for who happens to be carrying it at the moment. It stands or falls on its own merits.

      by don mikulecky on Tue Apr 16, 2013 at 11:43:55 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  who cares about 'HR's? (0+ / 0-)

        there are 600,000 people registered here.

        Some of them will HR.  

        What can ya do?

      •  don, you're being emotionally tone-deaf, so I fear (3+ / 0-)

        you won't get my point here, having ignored it for 24 hours now, to the extent of writing this diary.

        Your mistake was that, in a diary which was just an outpouring of grief over the Boston Marathon Bombing, right after it happened, you decided the appropriate comment was "The President is clueless as usual...n/t" (1+ / 41-).

        Now, there were 14 responses to your comment. People made it pretty clear why they objected, if you would only listen. At few of those comments (e.g. "don mikulecky is classless as usual..." (7+ / 0-)) imply that this emotional tone-deafness is just like you.

        Can't you see that, when people are in great pain, and are furious with the people who actually set these bombs, the last thing they want to hear is you pointing fingers at the president, who's trying to deal with the crisis?

        Your diary of yesterday poured salt in the wound, finishing with "We are sick in a very deep way."

        The irony here is that your own feelings are hurt enough to write this diary of complaint, but you have yet to show an iota of regret for all the people whose feelings you stepped on yesterday.

        I know you haven't been intentionally mean, but you really need to show the very sensitivity you're asking for from others.

        And in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.

        "Every man has a right to utter what he thinks truth" Samuel Johnson

        by Brecht on Tue Apr 16, 2013 at 02:06:45 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Now I've recc'd both of you. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Brecht, don mikulecky

          Life is somewhat frustrating sometimes.

          "This isn't America" - Zenkai Girl

          by mythatsme on Tue Apr 16, 2013 at 03:40:34 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  I made the comment off the top of my head (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          churchylafemme

          I had just learned of the arrest of a close friend and should have not commented at all.   I then forgot the comment until it was brougtht to my attention a little mwhile ago (It is WAY DOWN on the list and I never saw all the flack it caused.)

          The HR's there hid it an I am happy about that.  Now what does ANY of that to do withy this diary and how does it justify:

          you won't get my point here, having ignored it for 24 hours now, to the extent of writing this diary.
          ?

          I am afraid this has become an excercise in bad communication and I do regret my part in it but I am not guilty of abusing the system, merely blurting out an unpopular opinion that was not relevant to the diary being discussed which I wrote.  If you will notice the comment you are muddying the waters with is on some other diary.

          An idea is not responsible for who happens to be carrying it at the moment. It stands or falls on its own merits.

          by don mikulecky on Tue Apr 16, 2013 at 04:00:52 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I'm not "muddying the waters" - I'm clearing them. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Urizen, Batya the Toon

            Your first paragraph shows emotional awareness, and I'm pleased to find that I underestimated you. And sorry about your friend's arrest.

            This dairy shows that you're very upset at being attacked as "sick", and you feel you've been unfairly HRed and censored for disagreement.

            Now let's dive through the mud, and see how this mess began:

            1) You commented, in that 'Boston Marathon Bombing' diary, that "The President is clueless as usual...n/t" (1+ / 41-).

            2) AnnetteK was the second of 41 people to HR that comment, and the second to reply, with "Oh bugger off, your hatred has made you pitiful." (24+ / 0-)

            3) Half an hour later, you published a diary about violence breeding violence.

            4) AnnetteK was the fourth person to comment in your diary, with

            I'll tell you what's sick this freaking comment from you in a diary about the bombings in Boston today....

            "The President is clueless as usual...n/t (1+ / 16-) . . ."

            So, don, AnetteK pointed you to the offending comment that started this kerfuffle, she showed you that it already had 16 HRs. If you truly "never saw all the flack it caused", when it was spelled out to you yesterday, then you were being remarkably obtuse.

            Anyone who follows my last link can see how the argument proceeded. You and AnneteK were both upset, and when you told her "all I can say is that you are not a nice person vent your sickness elsewhere please", you got 6HRs for your trouble.

            What happened here, don, was that you hurt many people's feelings and, when someone called you on it directly, you were too caught up in your own hurt feelings to listen with any sympathy to theirs.

            "Every man has a right to utter what he thinks truth" Samuel Johnson

            by Brecht on Tue Apr 16, 2013 at 05:07:27 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  I also think that focusing on 'HR's' on a website (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    BFSkinner, Batya the Toon

    site is perhaps not the most productive way to better the world.

  •  I'm so sorry to hear this. I wish people would (7+ / 0-)

    not choose the violent option of HR'ing so lightly.

    I say it is violent, because it is an attempt to get someone banned from the site, which could be emotionally painful. Why do that to someone? It's only pixels on a screen. State your disagreement and move on.

    I wholeheartedly agree that we need to see all these tragic events in the context of a culture steeped in violence. We can't begin a journey to a new destination if we can't identify our current location on the map.

    I live in Boston. We're all shocked by yesterday's events. I wasn't there, so I might not be as shaken as someone who was. Still, I find it ironic that people are saying, "How could they do this in Patriot's day?!" Patriots day was the launching of a war. We celebrate wars all the time. We commemorate, each year, a man who came and began the slaughter and enslavement of the indigenous people. "Action" films full of violence are beloved. Our sporting events are still talked about and treated as gladiator events. Whenever we feel something hasn't gone our way, we scream for blood. We invade other countries. We hit civilians with drone strikes almost every day.

    And then, we're SHOCKED!™ when the violence returns to our doorstep.

    One can be shocked, hurt, angry, outraged and hold the individual(s) who took this twisted turn responsible and want to seek justice. At the same time, one can recognize that whether  this was carried out by a US citizen or not, the violence is homegrown. We need to stop feeding that beast. It's really the only way to honor those lost.

    These two sentiments are not mutually exclusive.

    •  Some (0+ / 0-)

      MAybe some are using it to get someone banned, but those are not very frequent.  

      Many people use them to hide a comment so that it's not an issue for the public when they see an inappropriate comment here.

      Streichholzschächtelchen

      by otto on Tue Apr 16, 2013 at 12:06:38 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  at minimum they are used to censor. that is to (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        don mikulecky, mint julep, qofdisks

        leave someone's contribution out of the public eye. it's a shunning. and that's hurtful.

        and nothing that he wrote was HR'able. Not liking what he said doesn't constitute an HR'able event.

        Perhaps, you might focus on how he is expressing that he was shocked. His feelings were hurt. Might you simply be able to say, "Sorry, man, that sucks." Or "I feel ya." ?

        Those simple statements would go along way. This isn't really primarily about HRs.

  •  I think hrs (and often those who use them) (5+ / 0-)

    are stupid.  They tend to bring out the brat in people.  If this were my site I wouldn't have them.  If we assume that all of us here are at least marginally intelligent, we don't need protection from right wing trolls --we'll be able to spot them when they come around.  If they aren't for that purpose, they're just tools for brats (wanna be bullies) to use.  When I get them, I enjoy a chuckle and move on, mildly embarrassed for those who feel compelled to engage in what to me is a pathetic display of brattiness.

  •  can we focus on the humans, not the HRs? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    don mikulecky, churchylafemme

    "To be attacked for my thoughts was a shock."

    When a person writes or communicates with you, its hard to have much of a conversation if you ignore their feelings.

    Don is expressing feeling hurt. The vehicle for that was the use of HRs to censor him. But the salient point is that his feelings are hurt.

    I'd like to see people address that rather than focus on the idiotic HRs.

  •  After reading the comments (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Catte Nappe, Brecht

    I can see that you weren't hr'd for saying that the country, or humanity is violent.  

    You had some disagreement on that, but not hr's.  You were hr'd because you took the opportunity to directly tell a commenter to "take their sickness elsewhere."  You also received hr's in a comment in which you said that the president is " clueless, as usual."  

    I don't really care what you have to say about Obama. I wouldn't have hr'd that.  The comment in which you tell someone else that they are sick definitely deserved what it got.  

    The thing that people shouldn't have done in your diary is take a comment from some other diary and bring it to yours.  That's borderline behavior, for sure.

    FWIW.  

    You wrote a rather short diary, so perhaps in an effort to be efficient, you may have left out some language that would have been more helpful.  

    Streichholzschächtelchen

    by otto on Tue Apr 16, 2013 at 12:13:01 PM PDT

    •  the commenter he made that comment to (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      don mikulecky

      had 1) pulled in a comment from another diary.

      (where I don't see how saying POTUS is clueless is HR'able.)

      and then accused him of having a mental illness.

      I don't think he was wise to respond, in kind, but if she's going on the attack like that - she could have stayed out of is diary, by the way, since she clearly came in ready to vent anger at him - then we have a problem.

    •  I have to wonder why no one is HR'ing the (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Deward Hastings

      personal attacks in that diary. Only Don is Hr'd.

      One commenter accuses him of having a mental illness. Another is just crude.

      It's no wonder that Don feels hurt. Why would people uprate personal attacks? Where was any support for him and his right to express his emotions and thoughts about events, even if they differed from others?

      •  6 HRs seems like an organized attck to me (0+ / 0-)

        It clearly was meant to censor

        An idea is not responsible for who happens to be carrying it at the moment. It stands or falls on its own merits.

        by don mikulecky on Tue Apr 16, 2013 at 12:27:28 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  clarify this for me? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Brecht

          I'm curious to know if you're alleging that a group of people organized to shut you down.  

          If I had to venture a guess, I usually go with the one that seems most likely.  The way the hiddens work here leads me to believe that a couple of people hr'd your comment, and then when others saw it, they agreed that it was not a comment for public view, and that it reflected poorly on community standards.  

          That is a more likely scenario than the one you are alleging.  

          You have to admit that " take your sick elsewhere"  was a pretty offensive line.   I probably would have hr'd that comment had it been in a discussion I was involved with.  

          Streichholzschächtelchen

          by otto on Tue Apr 16, 2013 at 01:06:44 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  and what of the comment to him before that? (0+ / 0-)

            it was okay for her to accuse him of having a psychological disorder, but not for him to respond in kind?

            i'm not saying that one shouldn't HR personal attacks, but when his are HR'd and hers aren't that looks a little gang-like.

  •  I may be looking at the wrong earlier diary (0+ / 0-)

    but I didn't see anyone attacking you for it.  I saw one comment in it where somebody called a comment of yours elsewhere "sick" (for what that somebody perceived as your attack on the President in that comment).

    I saw a handful of disagreements and some arguments.  I saw no abusive speech, no calls for your banning, and not one HR for the diary in question.  (Correction: I saw one direct insult, which to my eye was unclear as to whether it referred to you or to the President -- "this guy" was the referent.)

    It's a bit much to characterize that as "violence."

  •  when someone expresses hurt feelings, it (3+ / 0-)

    is completely inappropriate to try to 'splain to them why they shouldn't feel that way.

    walk out of the room if you can't express some human empathy.

    •  When someone expresses hurt feelings (0+ / 0-)

      by characterizing oneself as a victim of violence and organized opposition, rather than saying "my feelings were hurt when people said unkind things about my last diary," it is not at all inappropriate to point out that there has been no violence and no organized opposition.

      Or to point out that the person with hurt feelings may have contributed to the circumstance that led to their feelings being hurt, with behavior directly analogous to the behavior in others that hurt their feelings.

      If I kick you in the shins, and you retaliate by kicking me in the shins, and I cry because you kicked me in the shins, it is not inappropriate in the slightest for someone to point out to me that I did in fact start the kicking.

  •  um...you got HRed yesterday because (0+ / 0-)

    the president spoke briefly on the terrorist attack and you called him clueless for no reason.

    there was nothing else in the comment. just "clueless as usual."

    NO ONE will have a clue for weeks. So...I'm not sure what you're whining about. oh, you got HRed. boo hoo poor you.

    •  you have no case...it was indefensable n/t (0+ / 0-)

      An idea is not responsible for who happens to be carrying it at the moment. It stands or falls on its own merits.

      by don mikulecky on Tue Apr 16, 2013 at 01:04:02 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  that's not an HR'able offense. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      don mikulecky

      and you callous treatment of another human being with whom you are having direct communications is very difficult to bear.

      You are being a bully, coming into his diary just so you can mock him.

      Is this the way you want people to treat each other? Because this is the world you are generating.

      Someone making a frustrated exclamation about a political figure is really not justification for HR'ing or personally attacking.

      •  this is the comment in question (0+ / 0-)

        here and this is the diary here.

        Just "And the President is clueless as usual. n/t."

        Does don have special information? Does don know more about the terrorist attack? I realize this is the 21st Century and people, thanks to very bad American television and a public that's sadly scientifically illiterate (and even functionally literate---30 to 40% of adults are barely so in this country), expect instant answers, instant suspects and instant everything right NOW but that's not reality. We will not know for weeks. Months even. Don's comment that I TRed wasn't the usual political disagreement, which I almost never bother with. It was just dumb, and unnecessary, and inappropriate for the diary in question. That's why I TRed the comment yesterday.

        but if you feel it was wrong to "censor" Don, please proceed with contacting management.

        •  once again another diary another issue (0+ / 0-)

          please stopop being so dishonest....from a comment above:

          I made the comment off the top of my head (0+ / 0-)
          I had just learned of the arrest of a close friend and should have not commented at all.   I then forgot the comment until it was brougtht to my attention a little mwhile ago (It is WAY DOWN on the list and I never saw all the flack it caused.)

          The HR's there hid it an I am happy about that.  Now what does ANY of that to do withy this diary and how does it justify:

          you won't get my point here, having ignored it for 24 hours now, to the extent of writing this diary.
          ?
          I am afraid this has become an excercise in bad communication and I do regret my part in it but I am not guilty of abusing the system, merely blurting out an unpopular opinion that was not relevant to the diary being discussed which I wrote.  If you will notice the comment you are muddying the waters with is on some other diary.

          An idea is not responsible for who happens to be carrying it at the moment. It stands or falls on its own merits.

          by don mikulecky on Tue Apr 16, 2013 at 04:27:30 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  First use of the word "sick" was yours (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Batya the Toon

    Your closing "peroration"

    We are sick in a very deep way.  
    No surprise if others riffed off of that.

    As for HR's, doesn't look like you got any until you decided to get in a spitting contest with another commenter.

    "No one life is more important than another. No one voice is more valid than another. Each life is a treasure. Each voice deserves to be heard." Patriot Daily News Clearinghouse & Onomastic

    by Catte Nappe on Tue Apr 16, 2013 at 12:56:27 PM PDT

    •  no defense there...it was wrong! n/t (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Catte Nappe

      An idea is not responsible for who happens to be carrying it at the moment. It stands or falls on its own merits.

      by don mikulecky on Tue Apr 16, 2013 at 01:03:20 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  did you see the comment to him prior to that? (0+ / 0-)

      why wasn't it HR'd along with his?

      He was attacked and no one supported him and he shot back. His retalitation was inappropriate. But he is also understandably hurt. can we not acknowledge that?

      •  I am rather tired of this all. A close friend was (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        UnaSpenser

        arrested about that same time yesterday and I had just received the news.  I just got filled in on the details and it is not a pretty story.  So the whole fiasco has dimension s that you seemed to sense.  Thank you.

        An idea is not responsible for who happens to be carrying it at the moment. It stands or falls on its own merits.

        by don mikulecky on Tue Apr 16, 2013 at 02:30:07 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Belatedly, on this point (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          don mikulecky

          I'm very sorry about your friend.  And I can understand how outside stresses can affect one's reactions to things; it's happened to me too.

          I hope everything works out as well as possible.

          •  10 years on a drug charge is not good (0+ / 0-)

            We have been doing everything possible to help her be clean and the family hates her so they manufactured a trap.  I don't really know the details.

            An idea is not responsible for who happens to be carrying it at the moment. It stands or falls on its own merits.

            by don mikulecky on Tue Apr 16, 2013 at 04:41:38 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  the culture does tolerate violence (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    don mikulecky

    is that the argument? or is it more nuanced?

    i find the justifications of torture, indefinite incarceration, imprisoning whistleblowers, anybody who passes information to journalists. i find all this unconscionable. its very difficult to understand why this discussion needs to be hidden. there are many of us who think the current admin is "clueless", perhaps that is even understating it.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/...

    war is immoral. both parties are now fully complicit in the wars. bring everyone home. get to work.

    by just want to comment on Tue Apr 16, 2013 at 04:54:07 PM PDT

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