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Kayla (aka Xavier) Moore of Berkeley, California was pronounced dead upon arrival at the hospital in February, 2013, after an encounter with the Berkeley police in her apartment. She was unarmed.

David Silva of Bakersfield, California was pronounced dead upon arrival at the hospital on May 8th, 2013, after an encounter with six Kern County Sheriff's Deputies and two California Highway Patrol officers. He was unarmed.

An unidentified man in Sacramento, California was pronounced dead upon arrival at the hospital on May 25th, 2013, after an encounter with multiple Sacramento police officers, one of which was shown on a citizen video beating the man with multiple baton strokes. He was unarmed.

In Moore's case

Hayes ((her apartment-mate)) ... called 911 and spoke to BPD's communications center. Hayes said in the call that his roommate was "acting a fool" and needed to be "brought into the psych ward."... He said there were no weapons in the house...

Sterling ((self-described as Moore's caretaker)), who was still in the apartment, said he heard the police talking to Moore. "At one point, Xavier was telling the officers jibberish about the government and not feeling safe," ...

Officer Brown's account: "Moore was unable to answer my questions. He appeared to have difficulty focusing. Moore became increasingly angry and kept rambling something like the FBI was following him and that we were not real police officers.

In other words Moore was reported as being unstable, was talking jibberish to the officers as reported by a witness, and seemed to be delusional as reported by an officer. And yet
The officers kept telling Xavier to 'stop resisting' but he wouldn't. He kept resisting and speaking jibberish.
In Silva's case a deputy called to the scene found Silva asleep or passed out on a lawn.  After waking Silva up with a "knuckle rub" Silva, possibly disoriented and/or drugged, became belligerent. The officer's response? Unleash his dog. The dog then bit Silva, leading to further escalation of the situation, calls for backup, and the eventual beating and death of Silva.

In the Sacramento case, the 911 call indicated that the man was not of sound mind:

The trouble started around 6 p.m. Friday when the clerk at a Metro PCS store called 911 and said the man had walked into the store and was making unintelligible sounds, police said Saturday.
Reports are not clear exactly what happened, but it seems like the police escalated the situation instead of trying to de-escalate it.
The officers were able to eventually force the door open, but once inside, police say the suspect became combative. The struggle became so violent that it moved from inside of the store and out onto the sidewalk and parking lot in front of the store.
Each of these cases and many others (e.g., Houston Police Kill Mentally Ill Double Amputee Who Was Waving a Pen Around) have a similar theme. Police are called and expect the person being investigated to behave rationally - even when told beforehand that the person is not rational, is mentally ill, or is distraught. They insist on "compliance" with their orders. Yet in many cases there is substantial evidence to suggest that the person was not rational, and that the officers knew this before they arrived or could easily asertain such. Yet, when the person does not comply, the police escalate the situation instead of either attempting to de-escalate it or backing away until people trained in dealing with mental illness or deep emotional distress can be brought in to deal.

Note that in the first two cases and possibly in the third there was no threat to anyone were the officers involved to have retreated.

Police act as if "Stand Your Ground" is the 1st Commandment of officer interaction with everyone, regardless of the threat. Police think they are the solution, but often they are most of the problem when it comes to dealing with an irrational individual or a crowd.  I have zero confidence that police at any level will ever understand this concept, but if they could it would go a long way to ending the senseless deaths of the mentally ill and troubled I often read about and preventing police riots during marches and acts of civil disobedience before they can start.

The worst that should have happened to Kayla Moore is that she was left in her apartment alone until professional help arrived or she had come down off of whatever drugs were driving her. The worst that should have happened to David Silva was a watchful eye kept on him until he could be talked to, talked down, and/or ultimately taken back to the hospital / mental health facility he was seeking aid from. I don't know what should have happened in the Sacramento case, but I'm pretty sure that beating a man who is talking jibberish using ten blows with a baton is not a ratonal response to the situation.

Originally posted to jpmassar on Tue May 28, 2013 at 03:22 PM PDT.

Also republished by Occupy Wall Street, California politics, SFKossacks, and Police Accountability Group.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Who is more mentally ill, the police or their (30+ / 0-)

    victims? Sure the victims were irrational and needed help, but since it's known they had a problem in the first place, I vote for the police in these situations being more mentally ill, and in a psychotic, dangerous way.

    My autistic son has a phobia about the police. I'm not sure how to help him get over it so he can function independently outside the house. The way the police have acted lately doesn't seem to be giving either of us confidence either. Mostly I've been trying to steer him away from these stories, because they will only make it worse.

    "Madness! Total and complete madness! This never would've happened if the humans hadn't started fighting one another!" Londo Mollari

    by FloridaSNMOM on Tue May 28, 2013 at 03:38:09 PM PDT

    •  Is it a phobia when they are so clearly dangerous (18+ / 0-)

      to people who are not "normal" ?

    •  Unresolved power and control issues should (6+ / 0-)

      disqualify anyone from service with a police department.

      Is there a test for it? I bet there is.

      Simians are violent. Y'all know about the horrible things done by chimpanzees and gorillas. I'ts not that different with Homo Sapiens. Except we have weapons.

      There's a scifi book I really wish I could find agian (don't remember the name) where a portal is opened and humans and non-Earthers interact. They mate and everything.

      What struck me was that law enforcement who abused their power were treated. Not demonized. Not thrown in solitary. They were treated. One of the main characters was treated and went on to perform good service.

      It was a cool book. But the ending was the same. Life is short and difficult and we all die. But this book was a bit utopian in that we found ways to mitigate our violence.

      Does anyone remember the name? Was it an Ian Banks book? It had something about xenophobia in the name.

      Greg Bear? Probably not. John Varley? No. But y'all should definitely read "Blue Champagne" by John Varley.

      Reaganomics noun pl: belief that government is bad, that it can increase revenue by decreasing revenue, and unregulated capitalism can provide unlimited goods for unlimited people on a planet with finite resources.

      by FrY10cK on Tue May 28, 2013 at 06:21:46 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Is it the Neanderthal Parallax series by (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        jpmassar, greenearth, FloridaSNMOM

        Robert J. Sawyer? Titles: Hominids, Humans, Hybrids.

        •  Nope. That's not it. Sounds interesting though. (4+ / 0-)

          The scene that stands out (might trigger someone's memory) is a husband coming home while a bird-like species is "covering" his wife the way an owl does with it's mate.

          No violence happens but it's a tense scene.

          Also, at the end, one of the main characters walks into the sea instead of suffering the end of her terminal illness. Sounds depressing but it was a good book.

          Reaganomics noun pl: belief that government is bad, that it can increase revenue by decreasing revenue, and unregulated capitalism can provide unlimited goods for unlimited people on a planet with finite resources.

          by FrY10cK on Tue May 28, 2013 at 06:58:31 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  One more clue. I've been searching for this book (3+ / 0-)

          for a while.

          If I recall correctly, the portal was discovered and kept secret for years by professors at UC Berkeley before it became public.

          Reaganomics noun pl: belief that government is bad, that it can increase revenue by decreasing revenue, and unregulated capitalism can provide unlimited goods for unlimited people on a planet with finite resources.

          by FrY10cK on Tue May 28, 2013 at 07:05:18 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Here on earth away from USA there is also a (6+ / 0-)

        different reality it seems.
        It almost hurt to see because it is so right and sensible and not something we even pretend to do.

        You writing this reminded me of it

        They were treated. One of the main characters was treated and went on to perform good service.
        I was in other room when Maddow ended and she said the 'off to prison' thing or whatever. For the first time I watched the show on purpose and the next show too.
        They were overseas. The first show was Israel, the secong was Belgium and some other country.
        It was all about rehab, about working on whatever issue made the crimes likelier and preparing for life outside in 4 or 10 or 20 years.
        What really struck the show's staff, who have been doing all the USA prison, was the difference in how prisoners were treated, the different relationship between inmates and staff and general attitude.
        They kept noting  how respectful treatment was standard and stressed and interviewed staff didn't talk like that was hard or unusual. Kind of golden rule stuff. They were humans to them.
        Not like they got away with stuff...

        Anyway we barely even play at rehab here and prisoners are sort of the untrusted enemy.
        How much does that attitude difference fit with policing as well?
        and if that basic disrespect is the same reason our country has basic social supports as such a low priority.... medical care, child poverty

        we could be so much better

    •  seriously? (0+ / 0-)

      the entire police force everywhere is mentally ill?

      Just think about what you just said for a second

      As to your son, frankly perhaps you should get over your feelings to the police first and then work on your son. Either way most local police have ride alongs and community outreach. The tools are there if you want to use them

      In the time that I have been given,
      I am what I am

      by duhban on Tue May 28, 2013 at 08:22:52 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Get over her feelings (6+ / 0-)

        about the police?  You actually wrote that?  
        Did you READ the disry?  
        Did you see the brutal crack downs on OWS, and Berkley?  
        People have very good reasons to fear our militant police.
        Jesus, what a comment!  

        Gitmo is a Concentration Camp. Not a Detention Center. Torture happens at Concentration Camps. Torture happens at Gitmo. How much further will US values fall? Where is YOUR outrage at what the United States does in OUR names?

        by snoopydawg on Tue May 28, 2013 at 10:15:35 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Yeah those ride alongs are great for TV ratings (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        gerrilea, blueoasis, jpmassar

        aren't they? That is some sick shit.

        Reaganomics noun pl: belief that government is bad, that it can increase revenue by decreasing revenue, and unregulated capitalism can provide unlimited goods for unlimited people on a planet with finite resources.

        by FrY10cK on Wed May 29, 2013 at 03:07:01 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  huh? (0+ / 0-)

          you realize that most ride alongs are never broadcast?

          I am not sure what you think you know but I doubt you actualy know it.

          In the time that I have been given,
          I am what I am

          by duhban on Wed May 29, 2013 at 01:11:44 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  The ride alongs on TV? "Bad Boys, Bad Boys, (0+ / 0-)

            They're Comin' for you?" That is some sick, sick shit.

            I've never been on an un-televised ride along.

            Your society is degrading and you don't know it yet. Pay attention. Please.

            Learn before your post. Start here:

            Tulia, Tx
            Kids For Cash
            West Memphis Three
            Norfolk Four
            Property Seizures
            Three Strikes
            The Innocence Project
            CCA

            Start learning for the sake of your democracy.,

            Reaganomics noun pl: belief that government is bad, that it can increase revenue by decreasing revenue, and unregulated capitalism can provide unlimited goods for unlimited people on a planet with finite resources.

            by FrY10cK on Wed May 29, 2013 at 02:23:48 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I love the arrogant self righteous act (0+ / 0-)

              you should do stand up

              I think we are done here, you are utterly unwilling to see anything but your own preconvinced notions.

              And what is this 'you' and 'your'? Are you not even in the states? Because I gotta tell you being lectured at by someone that isn't even in america would be a new level of hypocrisy

              In the time that I have been given,
              I am what I am

              by duhban on Wed May 29, 2013 at 03:05:07 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Last reply. (0+ / 0-)

                Tulia, TX
                KIds For Cash

                Learn to use Google and pay attention.

                Reaganomics noun pl: belief that government is bad, that it can increase revenue by decreasing revenue, and unregulated capitalism can provide unlimited goods for unlimited people on a planet with finite resources.

                by FrY10cK on Wed May 29, 2013 at 04:15:36 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

      •  I didn't said all of them (2+ / 0-)

        Obviously I was referring to those who treat the mentally ill this way. I know several police officers who are kind caring people. Some of them are family. Please don't put words in my mouth.

        "Madness! Total and complete madness! This never would've happened if the humans hadn't started fighting one another!" Londo Mollari

        by FloridaSNMOM on Wed May 29, 2013 at 06:48:52 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  well you didn't qualify the statement (0+ / 0-)

          so I am not putting any words in your mouth. If you meant some, many, a lot, a few or whatever then you should have said that. When you throw out a general statement it's not my fault if I fail to intuit your implicit qualifier.

          In the time that I have been given,
          I am what I am

          by duhban on Wed May 29, 2013 at 01:11:05 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Happens all the time (16+ / 0-)

    From today's Alternet:

    May 28, 2013  |  

    On May 16th, Forth Worth police entered the home of Jarmaine Darden, 34, in search of cocaine. The raid, which does not appear to have uncovered any cocaine,  ended with the 34-year-old father dead after police tased him multiple times.  

    -and-
    in a wrongful death case due to an officer killing a young man in October in Utah

    ..after a "low-speed chase" due to the officer allegedly seeing the victim urinating on the side of the road..

        "Defendant Bowcutt continued shouting and walked backwards as the car moved forward at an extremely low rate of speed for approximately seven seconds.
         "Defendant Bowcutt then fired three shots from his gun, point blank into the car's windshield.
         "Two of the bullets struck Mr. Burkinshaw in the chest, killing him.

    It's a difficult, dangerous job, being a cop. It does seem to me that they do resort to deadly force quicker these days.

  •  All these news reports you've provided tell (19+ / 0-)

    us one thing, the police need to be disarmed while on the job.

    Or we need to create a better system of pre-employment screening.  Psch tests that can reveal if they have anger management issues, racist tendencies, etc.

    They've been tasering and arresting children at schools.  

    Allentown Assistant Police Chief Joseph Hanna argued, “officers are trained to use the justified amount of force dictated by the actions of the resister, not their age or gender.”  
    There's the problem in a nutshell, they're trained that way.

    Why aren't we asking who came up with these "training standards"?  Who do we go after to correct this?  

    Why aren't they being taught non-violent defensive techniques like in karate? Why are they always pulling their weapons first????

    Is it the result of their militarization?  Win at any cost mentality?  How many of our current police forces are or were former military?

    Maybe we shouldn't hire them for these types of positions.  After all, they've been trained to kill first, ask questions later, right?

    -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

    by gerrilea on Tue May 28, 2013 at 06:54:39 PM PDT

    •  This reminds me of an incident, many years ago (4+ / 0-)

      My wife and I were having dinner at a typical chain restaurant.  There was a guy sitting at the bar and he was visibly intoxicated.  He tried to order another drink and the bar tender told him no (it would have been illegal to serve him)  and the guy got loud and belligerent.  In response the bar tender served him, walked to the other side of the bar and picked up the phone.  A few minutes later the police arrived.  They talked quietly with the guy for a while and then they all got up and headed towards the door.  The drunk started saying something about 'wallet' and pointing to the bar.  From where I was sitting I could see that he had left his wallet sitting on the bar and he obviously wanted it.  The cops refused to either get it or let him get it.  Finally, the guy hauled off an hit one of the cops.  They put cuffs on him and drug him out of the restaurant.  After the altercation, the bar tender brought the wallet to the other cop.

      To this day, I am convinced that had they either let him get is wallet or retrieved it for him, the incident would have been avoided.  Instead, the police deliberately instigated it.  I had considered seeing if I could get the information regarding his arrest and testify to this effect but decided against it for fear of retaliation.

      While some do go into LE for the right reasons, I suspect many do not.

  •  The summary execution of the mentally ill (11+ / 0-)

    or beating/tasing them so severely in the field and/or in custody that they die, has been one of the features of policing for decades, ever since the near elimination of the public mental health system under Reagan. What with local and state budget cuts during the recent economic unpleasantness, the situation has only gotten worse, much worse.

    Police are trained and expected to do this. And they comply. They rarely have any compunction about beating the shit out of a mentally ill subject, while they might think twice about attacking someone with their wits about them.

    And they are protected by officials and the public when their batons, tasers, boots, fists, or guns just happen to cause the death of someone, especially if the deceased is mentally ill or on drugs. Since the police get away with it almost always, is it any wonder there are so many similar cases? As far as they are concerned, they are doing what's expected of them to protect and serve... the people who matter.

    If we really want this situation to change, then our public officials have got to be convinced that this sort of violent behavior is unacceptable. De-escalation rather than force has to become the standard tactic when dealing with the mentally ill.

    But the police aren't going to do it on their own. They have to be told, repeatedly. Incidents like the ones you've reported here have to have increasingly severe consequences for the officers involved and their commanders. Public officials who look the other way when incidents like this happen also have to face increasingly severe consequences. Policies and training for dealing with the mentally ill have to be clear and enforced -- policies and training which refrain from using violence or lethal force.

    Until that happens, these sorts of things will occur over and over with sickening regularity.

    Blogging as Ché Pasa since 2007.

    by felix19 on Tue May 28, 2013 at 07:13:43 PM PDT

  •  One of my neighbors is mentally ill (6+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    CA Nana, jpmassar, greenearth, blueoasis, Lovo, kurt

    and periodically goes off his meds. Then he gets into shouting matches with his invisible friends and throws everything out his window. I've watched the police respond three times this year, and every time they have been patient and gentle and professional.

    Just pointing out not all police are on a rampage out there, and not excusing the ones who are.

    Early to rise and early to bed Makes a man healthy, wealthy, and dead. --Not Benjamin Franklin

    by Boundegar on Tue May 28, 2013 at 07:27:48 PM PDT

    •  I was in a NJ emergency room (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      jpmassar

      and saw 3 police officers come in with a disturbed man who was threatening and screaming. It was frightening.

      These cops were talking to him and trying to calm him down, but not having much success. So...no kidding...they brought in a stack of pizzas. The man calmed down and started eating the pizzas. The doctors were able to examine him and get him to the psych ward.

      I wouldn't call it professional exactly, but it was intuitive and inventive and it worked.

      There are some seriously bad cops, but there are some very good ones as well. It just shouldn't be the luck of the draw as to which one a person gets.

  •  Where do I tell my granddaughters... (4+ / 0-)

    ...to go if they need help? Lessee....

    Church? Well they're girls and not catholic, and even the protestant ministers all seem to prefer to rape young men. But we're Atheists so why take chances...

    School?? ha ha. hahaha.. BWHAHAHAHAH.... Who's the pervert du jour? This guy seems pretty current.

    The police?? In Anchorage alone, we've had several cases of rapist police officers, a lot of sexual misconduct involving "the public" let alone the trigger-happy goons we have running around who HAVEN'T been caught yet.

    What do I tell them. Seriously.

    "Wealthy the Spirit which knows its own flight. Stealthy the Hunter who slays his own fright. Blessed is the Traveler who journeys the length of the Light."

    by CanisMaximus on Tue May 28, 2013 at 07:28:06 PM PDT

  •  I'm so grateful SLC police are trained properly (7+ / 0-)

    In the early 90's, a schizophrenic neighbor who was off meds threatened to kill her 2 small children, and the police were called. I could hear quite a bit through my own door, and those guys spent over an hour talking quietly to her, attempting to talk her down and agree to going to the hospital. At some point, they gave up, and physically restrained her to get her to the ambulance, but no guns, tasers, batons, or fists were used (and she was not a small woman). I was impressed by their professionalism. They got her to the hospital, alive, and did their damnedest to get her to go along without restraints.

    Sad case. They were immigrants from Africa, and her husband was working and going to school, so not home much. When she was on meds, she was a zombie who couldn't deal with the kids. Off meds, she was a threat to the kids and to herself. Maybe better meds are available now, I don't know. The property manager did her best to find resources to help them.

    This was 20 years ago, so I don't know if they still get this training, but I hope so.

    •  20 years has seen a sea change in how officers (10+ / 0-)

      are trained, armed and react.  And not for the better.

      •  Given the number of mentally ill people (6+ / 0-)

        living on the street, they really do need to be trained for how to deal with irrational people. Not to mention people who are drunk or drugged. Shooting or beating unarmed people is so awful and so unnecessary. So sad.

      •  you are quite wrong (0+ / 0-)

        In the time that I have been given,
        I am what I am

        by duhban on Tue May 28, 2013 at 08:28:25 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  , the authoritarian follower asserted ... (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          jpmassar, gerrilea, Don midwest

          Free: The Authoritarians - all about those who follow strong leaders.

          by kbman on Tue May 28, 2013 at 09:40:20 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I always find enjoy the irony of (0+ / 0-)

            those who think if they just threw insults that that is a convincing argument

            When in point of fact you are saying just how hollow your argument really is

            In the time that I have been given,
            I am what I am

            by duhban on Tue May 28, 2013 at 11:06:26 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  speaking of irony ... (0+ / 0-)

              you call, "you are quite wrong" an argument?

              Your behavior throughout these comments and those in other diaries involving police misconduct make it perfectly clear that you are an authoritarian follower. This is not an insult, simply an observation. It is laughable that you think that you can merely assert that jpmassar is wrong without providing ANY supporting argument - especially in light of your response to the comment directly below mine in which you claim to provide proof. Is your proof, "because you said so"? Are you the ultimate authority on life, the universe, and everything? Are you God? If so, I'm fucking impressed, let me tell you. Otherwise, you claiming that your disagreement constitutes proof is quite humorous.

              You honestly don't see a degradation in the quality of policing over the past two decades? You honestly don't see the increased militarization and decreased sense of common humanity from the police? Pray tell, in which country do you spend the majority of your time? If it's in the USA then you must be keeping yourself in the more exclusive neighborhoods, because they are the only places where the police are on the side of the locals. Everywhere else they have proven themselves to view us as all being potential enemies/criminals, people to be looked upon suspiciously at all times and treated dismissively.

              Free: The Authoritarians - all about those who follow strong leaders.

              by kbman on Wed May 29, 2013 at 04:53:42 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  you know all of jack shit about me (0+ / 0-)

                You read a handful of comments I've written (and frankly you've yet to demonstrate that you actually are reading them instead of just assuming they say what you want them to say) and you think that gives your the ablity to say what I am and am not?

                Again your arrogance is  funny and if I thought you or the diarist would actually listen to an argument I would make it but since we both know that is not going to happen why should I?

                That statement is wrong plain and simple. Cops today go though more training about deescalation and defensive tactics then they ever have.

                And degradation? You mean we are going back to when interagations were not recorded? Or no one batted an eye when a defendant showed up to trial with the crap beaten out of him? Or maybe you mean back to the times when you could and would be relentless questioned without access to legal conusel?

                See that's the problem with going around saying we live in a facist authoritarian state, it's fairly easy to show that not only do we not but if anything over the long run this nation is becoming less so.

                Are things perfect? Hell no and we have a long way to go but we are also no where even close to what you seem to think is true.

                In the time that I have been given,
                I am what I am

                by duhban on Wed May 29, 2013 at 06:08:19 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  So you didn't bother providing proof (0+ / 0-)

                  for your claim because you didn't think the diarist would LISTEN to what you said? Wow, first off, regardless of whether it will be given attention, something more substantial than "you are wrong" is required to raise your assertion to the level of being an actual, you know, ARGUMENT. Second, what exactly do you mean by "listen"? Do you mean that the diarist won't read what you wrote? Or, more likely, do you mean that they won't accept what you wrote as true or accurate? So if your argument is so unpersuasive that you don't even bother to make it, what makes you so certain you are correct? Do you have actual citations of fact to support your claims, with links and/or references? Or do you just have more assertions which you expect us to accept without question? That's what authoritarian followers do, they accept the assertions of those they chose as authorities without questioning those assertions.

                  You then continue to make assertions as though they are objective reality. Were the cops flush with military equipment 20 years ago? Were the cops pumped up on steroids 20 years ago? Were the cops "deescalating things" 20 years ago by using SWAT teams and no-knock entry for serving simple warrants?  You are welcome to go on believing that things aren't so bad, and that our civil liberties aren't being encroached upon piece by piece. But don't flatter yourself by seeing that belief as anything more than an opinion.

                  Free: The Authoritarians - all about those who follow strong leaders.

                  by kbman on Wed May 29, 2013 at 11:26:50 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

        •  Stop being a dick.... n/t (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          jpmassar, kbman

          -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

          by gerrilea on Wed May 29, 2013 at 02:44:20 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  that's not being a dick (0+ / 0-)

            just because I happen to not only disagree with jpmassar but can actaully provide proof that he is wrong that is not being a dick.

            Why don't you stop confusing disagreement for something else?

            In the time that I have been given,
            I am what I am

            by duhban on Wed May 29, 2013 at 01:08:43 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  You have yet to prove him wrong or even provide (0+ / 0-)

              a reasonable contrary argument.  He's provided us with evidence and made a reasoned conclusion based on said evidence.

              Holding a different opinion is one thing, you said he was wrong, show me how or why.

              The other postings you've made here were only your opinion(s), not facts....there is a difference.

              Until you provide evidence that he's made a mistake either in the evidence he's provided or his conclusions you're just being a dick BECAUSE you don't agree with him.

              -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

              by gerrilea on Wed May 29, 2013 at 05:17:35 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

  •  I agree with some of what you have to say (0+ / 0-)

    but that 'stand your ground' bit of yours is nonsense as  the idea that the police are not the solution. If not them then who?

    Hindsight is always 20/20 and yes in hindsight the officers should have acted differently but it's easy to sit here and arm chair quarterback on monday morning.

    Further you are wrong in the first case if someone is acting in an unstable fashion then that roommate was in danger.

    I do not have any real solution here because the outcome is wrong but I do not see any real solution.

    In the time that I have been given,
    I am what I am

    by duhban on Tue May 28, 2013 at 08:20:54 PM PDT

    •  The police are employees, nothing more or less. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      jpmassar, andalusi

      The reason you can't see a solution is because you've forgotten this point.  The other point is that they once were actually PEACE OFFICERS, they are anything but that today.  They've become the Banksters "enforcers".

      How many companies allow employees to "investigate" their own wrong doing?

      Step one: Create Independent Public Commissions to deal with all Police brutality cases, including giving them the power to indict, prosecute and fire.

      Step two: Hire better more emotionally stable individuals, ie more mature, less arrogant & cocky.  Review and modify current pre-employment screening.

      Step three:
      Disarm all police.

      Step four:
       Train them in real defensive techniques, mandatory karate training. Deescalation strategies. Mandatory mental evaluations every six months, etc, etc.

      Step five: Teach them the US Constitution and what the rule of law actually means.

      Step six:  Fire those that cannot met the new standards.

      This is my short list of things we can do immediately.  We must also revisit their militarization.  Why do they have weapons of war today?

      See that really wasn't too hard, once you accept that their primary goal is to keep peace AND that they are employees first.

      -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

      by gerrilea on Wed May 29, 2013 at 03:19:03 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  "They're beating the shit out of him!" (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        gerrilea

        "Call the police!"
        "They are the police!"

        -- Reported conversation in Bakersfield

      •  I wonder just what you think you know (0+ / 0-)

        Step 4 already happens all police that I know receive training along those lines. Frankly sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. But you know what I would like to see? All non police to have a class on interacting with the police because let me tell you many people seem to think that if they act like rude assholes the police will just back off.

        Step 3, you know you want to disarm the entire populace and we can talk about this then. Till then that's just plain cracy

        Step 2 that's great but who is going to pay for the salary for these more selective hiring processes? Hell many departments are still under a hiring a freeze from 2009 because they can barely pay for the officers they have. And they certainly don't have the means to be more selective. Don't get me wrong I agree with you here but that is going to require more taxes and by and large the public tends to reject that idea.

        Step 1, as I have discussed before personally  I am not against this. But you are going to have to actually make it impartial and then convince everyone that it is.

        Step 5, most officers actually already know the law far better then you or I because when a case goes to trial the defense has all the time in the world to pick apart an officer's actions. So I am puzzled at this comment

        As to 'militarization' have you paid attention to how things are today? When people can carry around assault weapons or have concealed weapons or armor piercing rounds and yet you wonder why the police are carrying military hardware? No offense but I think you are approaching that the wrong way.

        And you know here's the thing I have never said the police are perfect because they are not. But that is not enough for some here and I doubt it will ever be enough for many of those people till the police are entirely disarmed. Nevermind that doing such would entirely undermine society and that the police actually serve a needed role.

        As I originally said the end result is one I am not happy about but the 'suggestions' to fix it are really nonstarters. The police enforce the law, not decide which laws to enforce. That's how our society works and frankly I don't want it to change even though it is imperfect.

        In the time that I have been given,
        I am what I am

        by duhban on Wed May 29, 2013 at 01:25:17 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  If our employees don't like the conditions of (0+ / 0-)

          their employment, they can find another job.

          let me tell you many people seem to think that if they act like rude assholes the police will just back off.
          As a member of the public, I have no legal obligation to be "respectful" to anyone, including them.  This, however, doesn't mean that I'm not. I've always been respectful until I have no legitimate reason to be.

          I could, as a transgendered woman, give you multiple occasions where they were anything but professional.  Bigoted, hateful and lazy IS my experiences with them.

          Example one:  I was accosted by a hateful bigoted man whom spit on me at a gas station, I did nothing, said nothing to this person, except pumped my gas.  He walked over to me and spit on me saying, "Who do you think you are, you faggot?!!!"  I called the police to have him arrested and they refused, saying, "Well, if you didn't dress that way, there wouldn't be a problem."

          Example two: Just a couple years ago, my "neighbors" had motorcycles that were so loud when they rode down our street, the pictures on my walls would shake.  One night around 11:30pm they came barreling down the street, I had been asleep, and one of my pictures fell off the wall, I'd had enough of their disturbing the peace and called the PEACE OFFICERS. One came and told me he wasn't going to do anything, that it wasn't his job, it was mine, "To go and talk to my neighbor".

          I pointed out that if I felt safe enough to actually speak to my neighbor, I would have. Noting that his disrespectful actions already established that he was not a reasonable person.  I asked the PEACE Officer what did he really think would happen if I did?  Would he protect me when the guy beats the hell out of me?  He didn't answer me and left.  I called the Mayor the next day and went to the next Supervisors meeting and formally complained.

          As for this:

          Frankly sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
          That's the problem....obviously their training is lacking or their abilities to learn are and they should be fired if they can't do the job, period.

          The point you seem to ignore is that the police have no constitutionally protected right to keep and bear arms while on the job.  This is about controlling our employees and their "John Wayne Complex."  The British Police are generally disarmed and guess what?  We never hear of them killing innocent citizens in their 3am no-knock raids AT the wrong house.

          If they were disarmed, they'd have to learn non-violent deescalation techniques that would save our lives.  Don't you wish to save lives?

          As for the cost thingy, are you saying that it's only about money? Really?  Pre-employment standards that weed out violent, narcissistic authoritarians shouldn't cost us anything more than what we spend now.  Modifying the standards is not "rocket science".

          The company I currently work for (a multi-billion dollar international) spent $2 million on the development of their hiring assessments.  That's really not unreasonable AND it could be used Nationwide.  Wow, $2 million spread out over 300 million Americans and that's only .006 cents per person, Hell round it up and were at a penny a piece with extra for bonuses!

          As for your claim about #5 AND your false conclusions, I'm puzzled, what law do they know better?  The one they create to fit their petty needs and whims???  
          Why are New York cops arresting gay people on charges ruled unconstitutional 26 years ago?

          In 1983, New York's high court struck down as unconstitutional a 1960s-era provision that made it illegal to cruise—that is, to hit on someone in a public place. And yet in the 26 years since, on thousands of occasions, the New York Police Department has continued to enforce the defunct law, historically used to target gay people.
          See this:

          Cases dropped after illegal DUI checkpoints

          But once the state attorney's office was notified that the operational plan wasn't followed and they were pulling over more than every third car, instead of dropping the cases, the state attorney's office took a new tactic and it got ten law enforcement officers who worked that night to sign affidavits saying the operational plan was followed, which was a bald-faced lie.

          Attorney Jason Sammis said he found it "disturbing" when we asked him what it does to our system when someone is so zealous about trying to get a conviction they would lie on an affidavit and get law enforcement officers to swear what is true is not true.

          And this:

          New Hampshire Police Charge Man With 'Wiretapping' Because He Made A Phone Call During Traffic Stop

          from the you-can't-be-serious dept
          We've covered the disturbing trend of police, prosecutors and the courts to abuse wiretapping laws to charge people with "wiretapping" for recording police in public. The latest such case is even more ridiculous than most. Found via Slashdot, it involves a guy charged with wiretapping the police during a routine traffic stop, because he made a phone call, to which a voicemail system recorded the call at the other end. The guy who was arrested,
          The culture of corruption must be broken!

          As for this:

          As to 'militarization' have you paid attention to how things are today? When people can carry around assault weapons or have concealed weapons or armor piercing rounds and yet you wonder why the police are carrying military hardware? No offense but I think you are approaching that the wrong way.
          People, ie citizens, have the unalienable right to keep and bear arms, the police do not.  You see, I want a society not hellbent on "one-upmanship".  Are you going to define our society as, "Well, they have guns, so we should too?"  Isn't that ass-backwards?  

          Why do they need tanks? Or Armored personnel carriers? OR water cannons? Or drones?

          Are the American people NOW the enemy???

          As for this:

          The police enforce the law, not decide which laws to enforce.
          See above laws they illegally and unconstitutionally "enforce".

          How about we define "enforce" here?  Does that grant them the authority to use torture devices, ie "tasers"?

          Does that grant them the right to summarily execute anyone that doesn't agree with their illegal actions?

          NO!  They were never granted such arbitrary authorities.  To become judge, jury AND executioner.  Hell, why have a "legal system" if/when they can just shoot and kill anyone they believe is in violation of the law, right???

          When the Right to Resist Becomes the "Duty to Submit"

          As for this:

          That's how our society works and frankly I don't want it to change even though it is imperfect.
          Then we must disagree.  I don't buy into your subservient role that perpetuates the status quo that will see more and more Americans being summarily executed by it's own creation.

          -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

          by gerrilea on Wed May 29, 2013 at 06:37:01 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  ah I see (0+ / 0-)

            an internet tough guy/gal.

            You are right you don't have to be respectful to that officer but that officer also doesn't have to let you skate on that ticket or only give you a summons instead of arresting and so on and so forth.

            You want to be an asshole then don't be surprised when karma smacks you right back.

            I could as someone that has rode with officers give you numerous examples of police going out of their way to give run aways help, victims of domestic abuse help and so on.

            But why really should I? You have your 'answer' now you are just trying to make it fit. And I don't know if you are expecting perfection but if you are you shouldn't hold your breathe on that.

            Officers are just as failable as you or me and frankly sometimes situations spiral out of control so fast it's impossible to stop. It's so easy for you to sit there safe and sound with all the time in the world to second guess actions that had only seconds if not that of time to think about.

            It's perhaps my biggest pet peeve about many of the 'critics' here. People want to sit here in judgement as if they don't have all the time in the world to consider everything. Never mind being perfectly safe and sound.

            This is going nowhere so really I wash my hands of you and this exchange. I don't really care what you think of me personally but your constant insults really grew tiring.

            You enjoy your night but we are done here.

            In the time that I have been given,
            I am what I am

            by duhban on Wed May 29, 2013 at 07:22:55 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I'm now an asshole for disagreeing with you? (0+ / 0-)

              Again, proving my point that you're being a dick.

              And you wish harm upon me?

              You're relatively new here, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, personal attacks are forbidden and can get you banned.  Wishing harm on others, as you just did, is grounds for immediate banning.

              If you had a legitimate argument, you could have presented it. You didn't. You have attacked the diarist and now me personally. Knock it off .

              Next, don't assume you know what my position is other than what I've presented here.  I have immediate family members as LEO.  Being human is not the point, being capable of doing the job professionally and without killing innocents IS.

              I've presented verifiable links with evidence that your position(s) are invalid and your only response is to attack me.

              Next time, how about avoiding JPMassar's diaries if you can't add something constructive to this discussion?

              Or learn to follow our site rules before engaging further, especially if you disagree with the diarist or the posters.

              Reasoned discussion is how we move progressively forward.

              -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

              by gerrilea on Wed May 29, 2013 at 07:43:45 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I have never wished harm on you (0+ / 0-)

                that's a vicious lie and if you are going to descend to that level then it is for the best to just ignore you

                In the time that I have been given,
                I am what I am

                by duhban on Wed May 29, 2013 at 08:10:51 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  THIS: (0+ / 0-)
                  You want to be an asshole then don't be surprised when karma smacks you right back.
                  If this wasn't a wish for harm to come to me then explain it.

                  If you weren't calling me an asshole, then what???

                  Besides, your petty insults and threats I granted you absolution from, this one time.

                  Can't discuss honestly so you attack personally, learn the difference.

                  -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                  by gerrilea on Wed May 29, 2013 at 08:27:37 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

        •  This is where your position leads us... (0+ / 0-)

          -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

          by gerrilea on Wed May 29, 2013 at 06:59:34 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  There's got to be a better way for police to do (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    gerrilea, blueoasis, jpmassar, kurt

    their work. A lot more training in lowering the emotional scene and a turn toward nonviolence in words and in deeds.

    Thanks for posting this diary, jpmassar.

  •  I had to petition my husband (0+ / 0-)

    for involuntary treatment two weeks ago. I have to admit when they told me the police would come by to pick him up if the petition were accepted it really made me hesitate. I've heard too many stories like this and my husband was not in his right mind; I expected it to go badly. Particularly since we're smack in the middle of Arpaio land.

    Luckily he didn't wake up until 15 minutes before the police got here so the cobwebs weren't cleared out yet and he was too stunned and half-asleep to create any drama. Also luckily, the officers who responded were kind, patient and understanding. They didn't put hands on him or try to order him about; they let him do his morning hygiene routine and all before they took him.

    So now every time I'm tempted to paint every cop with a broad brush (and I am tempted sometimes), I have to remember the kindness and patience of those officers and the ones who responded to his suicide attempt two weeks before that.

    When we remember we are all mad, the mysteries disappear and life stands explained. - Mark Twain

    by Late Again on Wed May 29, 2013 at 09:09:32 AM PDT

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