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Pathetic:
A recent briefing by senior intelligence officials on surveillance programs failed to attract even half of the Senate, showing the lack of enthusiasm in Congress for learning about classified security programs. [...]

The Senate held its last vote of the week a little after noon on Thursday, and many lawmakers were eager to take advantage of the short day and head back to their home states for Father’s Day weekend.

Only 47 of 100 senators attended the 2:30 briefing ...

Oh well. Maybe they'll find out what's happening to tens of millions of Americans if there's another leak. Otherwise, pass the peanuts.

Originally posted to Barbara Morrill on Sat Jun 15, 2013 at 06:57 AM PDT.

Also republished by Daily Kos.

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Comment Preferences

  •  i Detest these fucking lazy slobs (12+ / 0-)

    do not deserve to be in congress

    "I'm sculpting now. Landscapes mostly." ~ Yogi Bear

    by eXtina on Sat Jun 15, 2013 at 07:04:10 AM PDT

  •  slack-offs. (12+ / 0-)

    But then i am not shocked to find they are lazy, incurious, and completely unable to care what ACTUALLY happens to Americans.

    I need to make a lot.of.money doing nothing.

  •  but then again, the timing probably deliberate (18+ / 0-)

    knowing that many members would not show.

    Not clear from the diary -  was the briefing announced well after the announcement of when the final vote would be?  Is it possible that some Senators had made commitments in their home states based on the announced schedule?

    Could the timing of the briefing have been the equivalent of the Friday afternoon take out the trash news dump typical of administrations getting bad news out at a time when it won't get much attention?

    "We didn't set out to save the world; we set out to wonder how other people are doing and to reflect on how our actions affect other people's hearts." - Pema Chodron

    by teacherken on Sat Jun 15, 2013 at 07:30:46 AM PDT

  •  These guys don't even PRETEND to give a damn. (7+ / 0-)
    •  Exactly right. And they DON'T give a damn (7+ / 0-)

      because they no longer work for us----they work for the corporations and foundations who own them.  Our votes are a sham designed to make it look like we're a democracy.  We're not----we're an oligarchy or a plutocracy (people can take their pick).  As for being a democratic republic any longer----no, we're not.  This Congress, both House and Senate, are living proof of that.  We also have states within the United States that are under fascist rule:  Wisconsin (where I live) and Michigan to name two.

      Our primary goal as voters and as activists needs to be to clean out the filthy, lazy, amoral slobs who wander the halls of the U.S. House and U.S. Senate.  We deserve way better than we are getting and it's time they felt our wrath.  

      "A voice is heard in Ramah, weeping and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because they are no more." - from the prophet Jeremiah

      by 3goldens on Sat Jun 15, 2013 at 09:46:30 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  But, But, But......They Didn't Know (16+ / 0-)

    Right.  There have been over 22 briefings on NSA surveillance programs including PRISM.

    Harry Reid dismissed the Senate for an hour Thursday so the "uniformed" could attend a NSA briefing held by James Clapper to "inform" them.

    Less than half showed their lazy hides.  Beside, it's so easy to alibi & claim they didn't know.  Except....PRISM has to be reauthorized every 3 months.  They've been doing that for years.  Every 3 months they vote to reup PRISM.

    They just didn't know, folks.  

    •  There have to be at least a few who (12+ / 0-)

      are smart enough to know that a briefing from Clapper is probably not going to be all that enlightening or truthful.

      There was also one line from some Senator who said that he went to intelligence briefings, but because they didn't allow staffers into the briefings he didn't really understand what the intelligence people told him.  That story was damning and frightening on numerous levels.

      •  Sputtering here---can't even get the words (11+ / 0-)

        together at this:  

        There was also one line from some Senator who said that he went to intelligence briefings, but because they didn't allow staffers into the briefings he didn't really understand what the intelligence people told him.
        That statement by a sitting U.S. Senator is so damning, I am just shaking my head.  I'm becoming both bitter and cynical at the fact that we have individuals this stupid voting on our laws.  (I'm sure this dimwit is far too stupid to ever actually WRITE a law---he likely believes that that's what staffers and lobbyists are for!)  But I'll bet this same individual enjoys the expensive lunches and dinners and drinks and vacation trips that he likely spends most of his time on.  Because you know that raising money to get re-elected so as to stay on the gravy train is what these jerks are REALLY in Congress to do.  

        "A voice is heard in Ramah, weeping and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because they are no more." - from the prophet Jeremiah

        by 3goldens on Sat Jun 15, 2013 at 09:54:11 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  There's the airhead blow dry contingent (5+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          3goldens, native, Dallasdoc, devis1, JVolvo

          that is definitely part of our problem in Congress, but there is also another sort of important problem which is that no everyone understands computer technology.  That spans all generations, too.  Yes, younger people are more savvy about the technology, but I've dealt with plenty of people who don't even understand what bandwidth is or what it means.

          I could actually see a lot of people who aren't innately gifted with an ability to understand this modern technology being very lost in a discussion about that the NSA is doing - and I would bet that the NSA is just fine with that, too.

          When someone starts talking about car engines, I tend to get pretty lost.  I'd have to take a mechanic with me if I had to have a briefing on something like that because I wouldn't know how to verify what someone was telling me one way or another without expert advice.  And that's the thing about this secrecy and how it is being used - not good.

          The people who scare me are people like Feinstein who claim to understand both the technology and the law.  She's proven plenty of times that her understanding of the law is not exactly deep and impressive. I'm guessing that her understanding of technology is no more sophisticated or educated either.

          So, that's another angle on the comment about not understanding what the briefers are telling them - on some level you have to applaud the guy for admitting it - because it calls out what really is a big problem.

          •  I have a pet peeve about older people (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            verdeo, Dallasdoc, devis1

            who absolutely refuse to learn about things like computers and cell phones and the internet.  I'm 67 and I have two older sisters----one of whom is constantly on a rant about how "stupid" all these "gadgets" are and how "useless" they are.  The other sister is just about as bad, but not quite.  The oldest sister (who hates "gadgets" worked for years in an office so she knows WordPerfect and used a computer for that, but she's actually proud that she knows nothing about the internet and doesn't intend to ever learn about it.  It was a revelation to her when I showed her that when we were settling our mother's estate, we could access her accounts on-line and save trips to the bank.  To satisfy both of my sisters, however, we HAD to go to the banks for every single thing because they weren't aware of or familiar enough with on-line banking to be able to do it and they refused to learn.  It nearly drove me crazy.    

            The ignorance of that attitude and the failure to recognize that we live in a both "wired" and "wireless" world these days drives me up the wall.  I find myself having very limited patience with people in my age group and beyond who just consider it a bother to have to learn about something new.  For me, this stuff is mandatory to know about.  I'm definitely not on an expert level as it relates to technology of today, but I've made it my business to at least learn the basics and I've been lucky, maybe, but when I ask questions of the young folks who work in that world, I've never been treated rudely and have learned a lot just by asking questions.  

            Your comment about Feinstein made me think about I think it was Ted Stevens of Alaska, who when he was in the Senate was chair of the Technology Cmte. and he made comments like "well, there's these things called the intertubes and you send stuff through them".  I believe he also referred to e-mail as "computer letters" and also allowed as how "you could get movies delivered to your mailbox" (NetFlix).  That was years ago and so I can excuse it.  But these days?  No.  I just can't excuse that kind of ignorance.

            If this particular individual really isn't up to date on the basics, then somebody better train these folks so that they understand at a bare minimum the basic technology.  If they're going to be approving things they don't understand-----that has to stop.  

            "A voice is heard in Ramah, weeping and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because they are no more." - from the prophet Jeremiah

            by 3goldens on Sat Jun 15, 2013 at 10:34:25 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Consider This, Maybe? (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              3goldens
              I find myself having very limited patience with people in my age group and beyond who just consider it a bother to have to learn about something new.  For me, this stuff is mandatory to know about.
              Have you considered that this "...bother to have to learn about something new..." is just a cover for the reality that, for many older folks, learning itself - thinking in this case of IT and its many manifestations - is very difficult, and thus a source of potential embarrassment, or at least a lot of frustration? So the "bother" rhetoric may be just a cover for saving face.

              I'm 71+ yo, and know a lot about IT, the Internet, how computers actually work electronically (in theory), I can open a desktop and blow the dust out, install a network card if needed (so much easier with processors that are powerful enough to allow plug-and-play), install new software, be aware what various pop-up messages mean (i.e., if critical or not), even use QuickBooks for my wife and my's businesses, including ordering same over the Internet and dealing with the upgrades and a back-up routine, and manage using two different web browsers - but I began learning about these things 20 years or so ago, and mainly am self-taught.

              It's difficult to imagine that I could pick up all this stuff from scratch without classes, and a lot of time making mistakes. Lord knows I made plenty of mistakes when I started 20 years ago!

              "Treat others as you would like them to treat you." -St. Luke 6: 31 (NEB) Christians are given a tough assignment here: Love the people you don't even like...

              by paz3 on Sat Jun 15, 2013 at 11:08:22 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Well, my sister did take classes when (0+ / 0-)

                she was a secretary in order to learn how to use WordPerfect and I know that she also participated in various workshops when she was employed.  You may be right however----maybe she needs classes, a person she can ask questions of.  She has a daughter who lives not at all far from her (15 minutes tops) and who is very good in using technology, however, my sister will not even ask her to show her thing.  She also has a degree in Business Education and although she only taught for 3 years, she worked at least 30 years in offices as a secretary until she retired.  

                I see this resistance in some----certainly not all-----of my older friends.  There's an attitude like this:  "I'm 72 years old and I've learned all I need to know!"   For me, I don't think I'll ever have enough time to learn about the whole list of things I want to-----but I intend to never stop until my last breath.  Life is too fascinating to just stop learning and sit in a chair watching tv for hours on end.

                Also, I've tried to show both of my sisters how being able to use a computer has real benefits----like being able to access their own medical record at their doctor's office via a program called MyChart.  They can also e-mail back and forth with the doctor's nurse with questions.  That's just one thing----there are so many more things that a computer opens the door to.  But, they would rather call than sit down and figure out how to use MyChart.  I guess I just don't get that.  There's only 5 years between me and my oldest sister and it feels like an immense gulf at times.

                "A voice is heard in Ramah, weeping and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because they are no more." - from the prophet Jeremiah

                by 3goldens on Sat Jun 15, 2013 at 12:02:21 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  As I noted, I don't think it is about (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              3goldens, native, Dallasdoc, devis1

              old or young.  I think that it is about aptitude.  My mother is really well educated and super smart, but when you talk with her about biology she's totally lost.  She doesn't have the aptitude for that subject.  

              Ask her about dictators in Eastern Europe and Central Asia, OTOH, and she's brilliant.  She's also never been good at understanding the inside baseball of technology, but she has always been a person who embraces it my parents bought one of the first consumer computers.  I thought they were nuts at the time.  I was the luddite in the family on that front for a while - lol.  A very boring computer programming class that we had to take in high school was the root of that - but I still got an "A" in the class because I have an aptitude for that stuff.  At the time, I just didn't see the value in it.

              Anyway, my Mother's aptitude for politics and foreign relations would have made her a brilliant Senator on many fronts, but not on this one, maybe - not without expert guidance.

              I think that you are sort of missing the larger point of this situation which is that elected officials were never supposed to be experts on every subject under the sun.  They were supposed to be people  who were called to decipher and decide issues on our behalf.  While there's not question that the number of dull tools in the shed is probably at an all time high right now, there are still some people who are super smart and sharp, but not necessarily in this arena of technology.

              I believe that the NSA is taking advantage of the fact that the people are completely left out of the debate and consideration of the matter --- and the fact is that once you get down to it, there are only a handful of people on those small intelligence committees in the House and Senate who have the innate ability to understand what they are saying.  

              It impossible to really tell how few get it, but based on which representatives who tried to warn the public prior to Snowden's disclosures, there are only two - Wyden and Udall - who both understand the technology and the potential for abuse.  Out of 600+ elected representatives in the Congress, there are TWO people.  And as long as the NSA and the Executive Branch have their way and keep everything in a Kafkaesque secret feedback loop, there probably will only ever be just two who really get it.

              I am not trying to make excuses for anyone as much as I am trying to point out that the system is set up to ensure that no competing stories interfere with whatever the NSA is telling the Congress - the fact that members blindly accept their stories is arguably a huge problem in and of itself, but there is zero hope of breaking that spell without impartial informed opinions being allowed into the realm of consideration - and we do not have that.

              Hell, they won't even tell anyone what their legal reasoning is - they are keeping that a secret - on some level that's the most telling part of the story - there aren't a lot of IT pro's in the Congress, but there are a lot of lawyers - keeping the legal reasoning secret from their scrutiny can't be an accident.

              •  Understand much better and thanks (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                inclusiveheart

                for taking the time.  Your last 4 paragraphs really say it IMO.

                "A voice is heard in Ramah, weeping and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because they are no more." - from the prophet Jeremiah

                by 3goldens on Sat Jun 15, 2013 at 12:04:45 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  I wouldn't understand it either. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          3goldens, Dallasdoc

          I wouldn't know the outright lying from the weaseling from the deceptively incomplete truths.

          What are you doing to fight the dangerous and counterproductive error of treating dirtbag terrorist criminals as though they were comic book supervillains? I can't believe we still have to argue this shit, let alone on Daily Kos.

          by happymisanthropy on Sat Jun 15, 2013 at 10:10:10 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Well, as inclusiveheart said, I imagine (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Heart of the Rockies

            the NSA is quite fine with people on the Senate Intelligence Cmte., for example, being in that situation because it makes life much easier for them (NSA).  It also helps the NSA that those they brief may never speak outside of the briefing room on what they're told so they have no way of testing whether or not what they've been told is true or accurate.  Effectively, it's being able to tell their (NSA) audience just about anything and knowing that unless somebody in that audience is pretty savvy, that they can say whatever they want to.

            "A voice is heard in Ramah, weeping and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because they are no more." - from the prophet Jeremiah

            by 3goldens on Sat Jun 15, 2013 at 10:40:11 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  At least this shows the clear difference between (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      happymisanthropy

      the parties on this issue:

      Republicans: we need to spy on you, any place, anyone, any time. (And you hate American and want the terrorists to win.)

      Democrats: we need to spy on you, almost any place, almost anyone, almost any time. Not quite every place, not quite everyone, not quite every time.

      And God said, "Let there be light"; and with a Big Bang, there was light. And God said "Ow! Ow My eyes!" and in a flash God separated light from darkness. "Whew! Now that's better. Now where was I. Oh yea . . ."

      by Pale Jenova on Sat Jun 15, 2013 at 09:43:26 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Wonder what they use for bait. n/t (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    eXtina
  •  Only when their political opponents use that... (6+ / 0-)

    information gathered by our own intelligence agencies to harass and discredit them will it become a problem.  Then they might care, but then they may not have any power to do anything about it, wondering "who could have predicted?..."

    The American people have no idea who the president will be in 2017.

    ...Nor do we know who'll sit on key Senate oversight committees, who will head the various national-security agencies, or whether the moral character of the people doing so, individually or in aggregate, will more closely resemble George Washington, Woodrow Wilson, FDR, Richard Nixon, Ronald Reagan, John Yoo, or Vladimir Putin...
  •  This issue isn't going to go away (5+ / 0-)

    The politicians and news media will eventually move on to whatever reality TV show is popular, or whatever movie star is currently in trouble with the law.

      But regular people will have no choice but to remember the ongoing spying every time they log into their computer. We will tell dark jokes to our friends about it. We will censor ourselves in subtle ways.
       But it will always be in the backs of our minds. And when a political figure finally makes a big deal out of it, or yet another revelation from another whistleblower displays yet another way the information is being abused, the issue will flare up again just as big.

    “Wall Street had been doing business with pieces of paper; and now someone asked for a dollar, and it was discovered that the dollar had been mislaid.” ― Upton Sinclair

    by gjohnsit on Sat Jun 15, 2013 at 09:28:42 AM PDT

  •  Useless just plain goddamned useless (4+ / 0-)

    as popular as pond scum?

    Not even close.

    http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/...

    and it has got worse since.

    "Another world is not only possible, she is on her way. On a quiet day, I can hear her breathing." Arundhati Roy

    by LaFeminista on Sat Jun 15, 2013 at 09:34:54 AM PDT

  •  I don't blame them (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    maryabein

    after all, they can't tell anybody what they find out.

    Or do a flying fuck about it.

    So the apathy appears just right to me.

    •  "I'll pretend to care... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Roadbed Guy, chrississippi

      and then I'll pretend to do something about it... naw, fuck it."

      What are you doing to fight the dangerous and counterproductive error of treating dirtbag terrorist criminals as though they were comic book supervillains? I can't believe we still have to argue this shit, let alone on Daily Kos.

      by happymisanthropy on Sat Jun 15, 2013 at 10:12:48 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  They're probably not even given accurate (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        happymisanthropy

        information, anyways.

        Another issue is that as part of their oversight duties, one would almost think that these surveillence systems would have to be pre-approved before they were built.

        Instead they're coming as a surprise to Congress long after the fact.

        Which means that even if Congress could shut the programs down, they'll just go off and build something else similar.  Which they've already done once - after TIA was deep-sixed to great fanfare, they just went ahead and made something similar (but probably even more sinister)

  •  What idiots (0+ / 0-)

    Not a single member of Congress has an right to complain about not knowing about it.

    They chose not to know about it.

    •  What the fuck. (0+ / 0-)

      You're pretending that, after numerous briefings where the truth was never told, that useful information will shine forth like rainbows this time around?

      What are you doing to fight the dangerous and counterproductive error of treating dirtbag terrorist criminals as though they were comic book supervillains? I can't believe we still have to argue this shit, let alone on Daily Kos.

      by happymisanthropy on Sat Jun 15, 2013 at 10:14:24 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  so who were they? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    3goldens, native
  •  Well, we can't have classified briefings (0+ / 0-)

    interfering with scheduled interviews and pressers.

    Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

    by darthstar on Sat Jun 15, 2013 at 09:37:21 AM PDT

  •  And many of those who missed the briefing (6+ / 0-)

    will swear that all this spying is Making Us Safe, whether they actually know the details or not.

  •  we see Nothing, Nothing.... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    detroitmechworks, 3goldens
    Only 47 of 100 senators attended the 2:30 briefing ...
    What, me covert intelligence

    Warning - some snark may be above‽ (-9.50; -7.03)‽ eState4Column5©2013 "I’m not the strapping young Muslim socialist that I used to be" - Barack Obama 04/27/2013

    by annieli on Sat Jun 15, 2013 at 09:53:59 AM PDT

  •  There is no evidence they are spying on Americans. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Gary Norton

    As a matter of fact, there's a lot of evidence that says otherwise.

    Al Franken says they're not.  He voted against the Patriot Act, BTW.
    http://www.startribune.com/...

    These articles explain the fallacies in the information provided by Greenwald.

    http://www.vanityfair.com/...

    https://medium.com/...

    http://www.zdnet.com/...

    Here's the latest reporting on what Snowden has given to the Chinese.  
    http://www.scmp.com/...

    •  What's your point? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Heart of the Rockies

      That I have nothing to fear?
      That these shenanigans are perfectly legal?

      The facts are alarmingly simple,

      The NSA has been sweeping up metadata from all digital electronic voice and data communications made by American citizens on American soil without any suspicion of wrongdoing and without a warrant. The NSA then stores this metadata in huge servers containing enough data that if it were printed out on letter size paper and stacked it would go round trip from the Earth to the Moon several thousand times.  

      So what do they do with this data? Am I supposed to believe that nothing is done with it? That it is being stored for posterity?

      If you believe that, then ..................

      Knowledge is Power. Ignorance is not bliss, it is suffering.

      by harris stein on Sat Jun 15, 2013 at 10:33:22 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Oh, but they already KNEW about them. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    3goldens, happymisanthropy

    And determined that they were legal.

    So really, they didn't HAVE to show up.  Because it wasn't really going to change anything.

    /snark

    I don't blame Christians. I blame Stupid. Which sadly is a much more popular religion these days.

    by detroitmechworks on Sat Jun 15, 2013 at 09:57:40 AM PDT

  •  If members of Congress had been targets of the NSA (0+ / 0-)

    all hell would be breaking loose.

    Funny thing is—they might have been and are just ignorant of the fact. Lots of private contractors out there. Who knows what they do?

    "The human eye is a wonderful device. With a little effort, it can fail to see even the most glaring injustice." Richard K. Morgan

    by sceptical observer on Sat Jun 15, 2013 at 10:00:35 AM PDT

    •  Does Congress think they're not being listened to? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      sceptical observer

      Are they that stupid? The Obama administration is going after leaks like there's no tomorrow.

      But, then again, they're probably as resigned to it as the rest of the nation. "You're either with us or against us," right?

      /snark, though not snarking about Congress being resigned to the spying ...

  •  See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    happymisanthropy

    Our monkeys at work.

    He who would trade liberty for security deserves great customer service.

    by Publius2008 on Sat Jun 15, 2013 at 10:00:46 AM PDT

  •  Survival of the Fatte$t. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    happymisanthropy

    It's like a moral (amoral?) kind of diabetes. In a crisis, keep feeding your face.

  •  Move Congress (0+ / 0-)

    Maybe if Congress were moved to Los Vegas they would stay around. Maybe they would be to busy to pass lousy legislation.

  •  Whistleblower: briefings designed to silence (4+ / 0-)

    From Thursday's Democracy Now!
    http://www.democracynow.org/...

    …we’re joined by Chris Pyle, a former military instructor who exposed the CIA and Army’s monitoring of millions of Americans in the 1970s. Pyle discovered the Army and CIA were spying on millions of Americans engaged in lawful political activity while he was in the Army working as an instructor. His revelations prompted Senate hearings, including Senator Frank Church’s Select Committee on Intelligence, ultimately leading to a series of laws aimed at curbing government abuses. Now teaching constitutional law and civil liberties at Mount Holyoke College, Pyle says the NSA is known for attacking its critics instead of addressing the problems they expose.
    Members of Congress do not go to those briefings, even if they’re offered, because once you go to the briefing, then you can’t talk about what you’ve been told, because it’s classified. So the briefing system is designed to silence Congress, not to promote effective oversight.

    Members of Congress don’t want to spend time on oversight. They’re too busy raising money. New members of the House of Representatives this winter were told by the Democratic Campaign Committee that they should spend between four and six hours a day dialing for dollars. They have no time to do the public’s business. They’re too busy begging for money. President Obama himself attended 220 fundraisers last year. Where does he get the time to be president when he’s spending so much time asking wealthy people for money to support his campaign?

    "I am confident that we're going to be able to leave the Gulf Coast in better shape than it was before." President Barack Obama

    by quagmiremonkey on Sat Jun 15, 2013 at 10:05:04 AM PDT

  •  What about this? It appeared in google news. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    native

    http://arstechnica.com/...

    http://venturebeat.com/...

    I am by no means a tea party patriot but I am a left leaning patriot and this is very troubling. Big government and big corporatism are hand in glove spying on us. Now of course, those in the indifference camp will try to tell me I have nothing to fear. This is business as usual and I should just get with it and accept it.

    Accept what? That big government and big corporatism are collecting data on the most minute details of our lives, then saving it for a rainy day when they can use some little slip up to invade our lives with the most heinous kind of fascist control that would make Hitler look like a Sunday school teacher? Excuse me, you in the indifference camp need to get with it and accept that this shit should never be tolerated in a democracy.

    Knowledge is Power. Ignorance is not bliss, it is suffering.

    by harris stein on Sat Jun 15, 2013 at 10:16:38 AM PDT

  •  Kosacks will still blame the NSA (0+ / 0-)

    The Greenwald cult of personality will give Congress a free ride on this.

    As soon as a Dem senator say that the NSA or WH never briefed them on these programs, probably because they didn't even attend the briefing, everyone will scream that the secret snoopers of the NSA are lying.

  •  No one. (0+ / 0-)

    Your clock has two sevens, but ...

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