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As the global revolution against the increasingly supra-national ruling elites continues to spread like wildfire, Brazil is quickly becoming a hopeful example of what happens when the people awaken to this very simple reality: The wealthy elite, having been able to buy off the political establishment, has become increasingly tyrannical and predatory.  That's what it means to have awakened!



The BBC reports tonight that "Brazil protests [have] spread in Sao Paulo, Brasilia and Rio"
As many as 200,000 people have marched through the streets of Brazil's biggest cities, as protests over rising public transport costs and the expense of staging the 2014 World Cup have spread.
When the typical intimidation and misinformation tactics usually deployed by security forces (and corrupt media outlets) protecting the rich and the status quo fail to intimidate the people, what you get is a massive uprising--and at that point the corporate goons have no option but to relent...


And in Brasilia, more than 200 protesters managed to get onto the roof of the National Congress building. After negotiations with police, the crowd agreed to leave. Later, youths formed a human chain around the building, the AFP news agency said.

In Sao Paulo, some 65,000 protesters gathered at a central plaza before moving off in three directions, bringing the main avenues to a standstill.

Police stood by and watched the demonstrations, in contrast to last week when clashes in the city led to dozens of injuries and claims of excessive use of force by police. Police denied they had acted unlawfully but said they would investigate the allegations.

The emphasis is mine

There is recurring theme behind this global uprising...

The mass of people gathered at Sao Paulo's Largo da Batata was impressive - but more impressive was that after the demonstration began, thousands more kept arriving, streaming peacefully towards the city's main avenues in a constant flow.

Their bright banners bore diverse demands - but all reflected a fatigue with what people here get from the state. I repeatedly heard the word "tired": protesters told me they were tired of corruption, of nepotism, of high taxes paid for poor public services.

People chanted that others should join the movement and that "the people have awakened". They warned foreigners not to come to the World Cup - because of the billions of dollars being spent on stadiums.

The emphasis is mine

Now watch how quickly the "authorities" sit at the "negotiating table" with the protesters and start making concessions that just a few days ago said were impossible.



There's a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can't take part! You can't even passively take part! And you've got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels…upon the levers, upon all the apparatus, and you've got to make it stop! And you've got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you're free, the machine will be prevented from working at all!

--Mario Savio





Why are they protesting?  Listen to this young man... You'll notice that a lot of what he says resonates...


Our turn is coming up.  When the government has failed, the people have no other option than to rise up...
Restore the Fourth is a nonviolent grassroots movement protesting indiscriminate government surveillance and the erosion of Fourth Amendment privacy rights. Inspired by recent NSA scandals, Restore the Fourth is planning a series of demonstrations across the U.S to take place this coming July 4th holiday.


Let's truly celebrate the Fourth of July!  See you there...

TUE JUN 18, 2013 AT 10:30 AM PDT

Talking Points Memo just published a photo journal of the ongoing uprising in Brazil.  Below are some of the photos.

More than 240,000 people participated in the biggest demonstrations to hit Brazil in decades this week, the Associated Press reported. The protests broke out in at least eight of Brazil's largest cities, with masses united around frustration about poor transportation, health services, education and security despite a heavy tax burden.






I consider the act of one human being putting his hands on another human being in aggression one of the most fundamental transgressions ("Take your hands off me"), bar none.  Why do these pigs feel it is alright to attack people who have rising in protest against exploitation, oppression, and corruption?  Under what authority, and for whose benefit, do they move in against their own citizens in this violent fashion?






But what happens when el pueblo rises up in large numbers, in solidarity?  Will the corporate goons be able to use chemical weapons, and batons, and other violent means to subjugate an entire population?  What will happen once hundreds of thousands of people realize who exactly is behind the brutal oppression?  The people united will never be defeated!






Originally posted to Ray Pensador on Mon Jun 17, 2013 at 11:52 PM PDT.

Also republished by In Support of Labor and Unions.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (197+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Horace Boothroyd III, blueoasis, antooo, YucatanMan, markthshark, bula, SpecialKinFlag, offgrid, cosette, fromcascadia, mookins, marina, sexgenderbody, irate, katiec, jnhobbs, deepeco, Sandino, bumbi, BlueDragon, rat racer, OldDragon, TheGreatLeapForward, rapala, Clive all hat no horse Rodeo, DRo, Simplify, gulfgal98, amsterdam, KJG52, eeff, Bluesee, PeterHug, Chi, marleycat, One Pissed Off Liberal, la58, Carol in San Antonio, aaraujo, Kevskos, Kristina40, nuclear winter solstice, MrJayTee, on the cusp, karmsy, Ozymandius, tampaedski, Glen The Plumber, psnyder, lunachickie, Susipsych, Publius2008, Mentatmark, Zwoof, Box of Rain, rivamer, greenbastard, Tom Anderson, sunny skies, Gowrie Gal, concernedamerican, detroitmechworks, sawgrass727, Joieau, Demeter Rising, cactusgal, Shippo1776, politik, Ironic Chef, Shockwave, MKinTN, Matilda, Tara the Antisocial Social Worker, orlbucfan, eightlivesleft, OutcastsAndCastoffs, sb, poligirl, congenitalefty, US Blues, 4CasandChlo, NYFM, lcrp, leonard145b, mkor7, FakeNews, Crabby Abbey, remembrance, kimoconnor, shaharazade, blueoregon, LaFeminista, 420 forever, boofdah, wxorknot, Keone Michaels, Wek, Kane in CA, countwebb, ActivistGuy, prettygirlxoxoxo, figbash, Eric Blair, bbctooman, mofembot, Lady Libertine, cpresley, dagnome, Anthony Page aka SecondComing, blackjackal, AoT, appledown, unclejohn, thomask, Cassiodorus, wdrath, Sun Tzu, MarciaJ720, Orinoco, Wino, mconvente, Alice Olson, Damnit Janet, Loudoun County Dem, dansk47, jfromga, Floande, lastxwriter, Lefty Coaster, Marihilda, triv33, renzo capetti, wasatch, lostinamerica, nookular, koNko, slowbutsure, Pam from Calif, tb mare, defluxion10, Kombema, Jim P, kevin k, Involuntary Exile, sodalis, happymisanthropy, wintergreen8694, Villabolo, cececville, CA Nana, 3goldens, HoofheartedBC, DefendOurConstitution, CitizenOfEarth, Rosaura, oceanview, SixSixSix, Wolf10, legendmn, oldliberal, lexalou, LamontCranston, LaughingPlanet, rasbobbo, dewtx, Josiah Bartlett, greengemini, Alumbrados, elwior, ichibon, Jim Domenico, old wobbly, tegrat, Sanctimonious, subtropolis, StrayCat, Brian82, mrhelper, Jeff Y, kbman, exMnLiberal, PBnJ, peachcreek, LeislerNYC, DelilahOhMy, third Party please, edsbrooklyn, fumie, exNYinTX, MRA NY, 207wickedgood, George3, deltadoc, martini, SanFernandoValleyMom, frisco, a2nite
  •  no uprising. (29+ / 0-)

    its a large manifestation. Unexpected, and it will be seen what comes of it. No larger than the manifestations in Paris recently AGAINST marriage for all. And Brazil has a solid social democratic government that has had significant progress in raising the living standard of the broad population; rather different form US-style plutocracy. Yes they are in trouble, who isn´t recently, and yes the people aren´t content, also who is, recently; yet to claim this is an "uprising" (and more so, "global") is so hyperbolic as to be ridiculous.

    hah, and what would Dilma then be? Global Plutocrat? well, again, ridiculous. I hope some people living in Brazil (there are some on this site) will later fill us in on whats going on.

    •  Dilma was an actual communist guerrilla. (20+ / 0-)

      Does that mean she couldn't have sold out to plutocracy? Of course not. But she hasn't.  Brazil over the last 10+ years has moved millions of people out of poverty and improved the lives of people in poverty.  It's a global model, much more than China.  The people out there demonstrating have a lot to be angry about ($1.50 is an extremely expensive transit fare for what's still a developing country with many poor people), but the idea that they're out to overthrow their model of development would make them the biggest morons in world history and they're probably not.

      You know, I sometimes think if I could see, I'd be kicking a lot of ass. -Stevie Wonder at the Glastonbury Festival, 2010

      by Rich in PA on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 03:43:21 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  and Lula was a union leader (7+ / 0-)

        same deal.  For all the corruption problems and the like, a lot of people on these boards here would be envious of the record of the PT (Worker's Party).  I am a mix of bemused and annoyed that I see the same folks who defend Chavez saying all kind of false things about PT, even though ideologically they aren't that far apart, just without the repression of the opposition.

        Touch all that arises with a spirit of compassion. An activist seeks to change opinion.

        by Mindful Nature on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 07:30:54 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  IMHO, A leftist government can only go so far (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Ray Pensador, AoT, Quicklund, SLKRR

        in Brazil. Sooner or later someone will have to address the generalized corruption that's been plaguing the country for so long. It's an extremely tough nut to crack, given that every branch of the government has historically been involved in it.

        “In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.” Terry Pratchett

        by 420 forever on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 08:47:03 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I think it's being addressed pretty well. (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          420 forever, ichibon, Farugia

          Direct cash transfers to the poor, instead of complicated programs to put specific goods and services into their hands mediated by the government, have greatly reduced graft and clientelism.  It's so effective that India is looking at imitating the program.

          You know, I sometimes think if I could see, I'd be kicking a lot of ass. -Stevie Wonder at the Glastonbury Festival, 2010

          by Rich in PA on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 02:12:47 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I think on that aspect the brazilian gov't has (0+ / 0-)

            been doing pretty well. There's no doubt that Brazil is way better off after Lula took over as President. What I meant is that Brazil has some issues that transcend the left / right debate, and need to be tackled at some point - especially the appalling Judiciary - slow, ineffective, corrupt, expensive, bureaucratic, not surprisingly extremely lenient when it comes to white collar crime. Widespread corruption is also a problem, and it works as a huge black hole for taxpayer money.

            “In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.” Terry Pratchett

            by 420 forever on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 02:41:13 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  There is a large protest - am (34+ / 0-)

      in contact with friends in Brazil. I wouldn't dub it a revolution however.

      This is a video that should be seen, that provides some perspective

      Join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news and views written from a black pov—everyone is welcome.

      by Denise Oliver Velez on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 06:00:50 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Note that this was over fare hikes (11+ / 0-)

        Essentially the leftist government raised costs for the poor and it went over not that well. Austerity ain't popular, and in Brazil there's efforts to stop it.  I daresay they'll make more headway with the PT than Occupy did with the Democrats.

        Touch all that arises with a spirit of compassion. An activist seeks to change opinion.

        by Mindful Nature on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 07:18:05 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Sometimes the exact cause is a symptom. . . (3+ / 0-)

          Every movement requires a spark. The first matches that light the fire may be about disparate, even unique reasons that are not as broad in scope as the overall disgruntlement.

          I agree with you noting that it is actually a form of austerity even though it wouldn't be seen that way by the media or even most people.

          But, the disgruntlement can lead to sparking much broader sentiments regarding the future of the non-elite corporate rich.

          We all know a movement is necessary to change anything, sparking it is often a matter of small sparks finding dry tinder - - this is a good sign.

          Blessed are the peacemakers, the poor, the meek and the sick: The "party of Jesus" wouldn't invite him to their convention - fearing his "platform."

          by 4CasandChlo on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 07:27:23 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  what you all seem to have missed (8+ / 0-)

            is that the Brazilian people have already been at this for over ten years since they elected the PT to power.  (Remember the guys who required fingerprints from visiting Americans in response to Bush's fingerprinting scheme?  Those guys)  The idea that this is some new fundamental shift as Ray puts forth really displays massive ignorance.  I'd encourage everyone to study recent Brazilian history if only to see a far more successful model for the left than the watered down nonsense we're pursuing here.

            Touch all that arises with a spirit of compassion. An activist seeks to change opinion.

            by Mindful Nature on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 07:35:11 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I admit to being uninformed (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              marsanges, Quicklund, Ginny in CO

              I appreciate the background and I do not know much about the situation there.

              My statement was intended to be a little more broad in that perhaps, if this uprising becomes more publicized here, it could - could, cause a spark here. It is impossible to predict these things before hand.

              Thanks for your comment, it is always helpful to have more background.

              Blessed are the peacemakers, the poor, the meek and the sick: The "party of Jesus" wouldn't invite him to their convention - fearing his "platform."

              by 4CasandChlo on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 08:14:42 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  You may turn out to be right (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                4CasandChlo, Quicklund, marsanges

                There is a good deal to be learned by what the Brazilian electorate have done, although they it is simply not as conservative a country as the US.  I would say that Brazil is probably the poster child for the anti austerity policies and the benefits of ignoring the neo liberal economists.  

                Part of what bothers me is that all this seems to get ignored in the US and the media and instead it is all a narrative about how Brazil is a backward unstable place because the context gets ignored

                Touch all that arises with a spirit of compassion. An activist seeks to change opinion.

                by Mindful Nature on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 08:30:51 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  I live very near a large, public square in Recife (5+ / 0-)

              There are protest, strikes, gatherings, etc. going on all the time.  Every month, if not more frequently.  This current one is bigger than usual, and has the interesting feature of being nationally coordinated (somewhat spontaneously) through social media, but it is essentially a continuation of normal Brazilian political action.

              Article 196. Health care is a right of all persons and an obligation of the State, guaranteed through social and economic policies that provide...universal and equitable access to programs and services....

              by SLKRR on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 12:39:52 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  Exactly (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Ray Pensador

            It just takes a spark.  

        •  And the protests are working... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          marsanges, emelyn

          Here in Recife and neighboring João Pessoa, the government today announced bus fare reductions.  And in both of these cities, the protests so far have been fairly small and quite orderly, maybe 300-500 in Recife (in a central square about a block from my apartment, so I am estimating).

          Article 196. Health care is a right of all persons and an obligation of the State, guaranteed through social and economic policies that provide...universal and equitable access to programs and services....

          by SLKRR on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 12:36:36 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  so give us the inside scoop---what's the general (0+ / 0-)

            feeling in Brazil regarding the government and its attempts to (1) fight the IMF austerity programs and (2) help its own people.

            •  Well... (7+ / 0-)

              I don't feel that I adequately describe the feelings of 200 million people, but my impression is that generally the poorer working classes recognize that things are improving and changes are continuing.  The middle class seems more impatient and is more the driver of the current protests, so far.  There is a lot of student activism involved here and they have used social networking sites to push these protests and coordinate them.  I have actually been quite impressed with that.

              There is a strong undercurrent of racism and classism among the upper and upper-middle classes with regard to the government helping the poor.  It gets derided as "vote buying" and "assistencialism" -- even though it's pretty widely recognized that assisting the poor is one strong factor that kept Brazil from plunging very deeply into the 2008 recession.  

              I'm interested to see where the current protests lead - I don't see it being any kind of attempt to overthrow the government, beyond a general sentiment to kick out the corrupt ones (of which there are far too many).  I do hope that they will contribute to more than just reduced bus fares... if that is enough to placate the protestors, it will be a shame and a wasted opportunity.  

              Brazil is a country in transition, moving from a highly inequal agricultural society to one with a large middle class and growing industrial and technological base.  Right now, it's at that point where people can really begin to see that the changes necessary (in education, health care, infrastructure, etc.) are still enormous and that there exists a strong political and socio-economic element that wants to desperately preserve the status quo.  Protests and clashes are pretty much inevitable, I think, and overall they are probably necessary.

              This is not meant to be any kind of comprehensive statement, just some of my thoughts in response to your question.

              Article 196. Health care is a right of all persons and an obligation of the State, guaranteed through social and economic policies that provide...universal and equitable access to programs and services....

              by SLKRR on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 01:44:24 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  The Democrats have mastered the (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Ray Pensador

          technique of pretending nothing's really going on.

          It's a powerful technique.

          Ou sont les neigedens d'antan?

          by SouthernLiberalinMD on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 02:26:16 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  I've got a couple Brasilian friends (8+ / 0-)

        grabbed a comment from FB that seems to sum it up:

        We just want political change, ... for the better, of course! Get tired of the feeling of impotence ... without health, without education, without dignity!
      •  at least initially (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        4CasandChlo

        Touch all that arises with a spirit of compassion. An activist seeks to change opinion.

        by Mindful Nature on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 07:25:56 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  This reminds me in a small way (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ladybug53, AoT, Involuntary Exile

        with the arguments to host the America's Cup here in SF.  I doubt the race will not cost the city money, money we desperately need to help people who live here.

        I am particularly saddened that the Brazilian govt took people's homes with NO compensation much less approval. That seems to me to be a reason to protest all on its own.

        Where ignorance is our master, there is no possibility of real peace. - Dalai Lama

        by kimoconnor on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 07:40:53 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  We had large uprising here in the US (7+ / 0-)

      We had large uprisings right here in the US.  Citizens in the thousands marched and protested, and even camped out in the streets.  This happened in cities across the country, large and small.  The protesters called for economic equality, environmental stewardship, and an end to government by and for the wealthy.

      And this went on for weeks.

      Eventually, the police moved in and "order" was restored.

      Perhaps not suprisingly, no one in the local, state, or federal government expressed any interest in sitting at a negotiating table and offered to make concessions.  The only outcome has been business as usual.

      While it is gratifying to me to see that others share my dislike of government of, by, and for the wealthy interests, I think much more has to be done to establish a government of, by, and for the people.  It will take marching in the streets and action in town halls, school boards, and state and national legislatures.

      Marching in the streets is a step, but it is only a step.  

      "The fool doth think he is wise: the wise man knows himself to be a fool" - W. Shakespeare

      by Hugh Jim Bissell on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 07:08:07 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Not with Brazil numbers. (6+ / 0-)
        We had large uprisings right here in the US.  Citizens in the thousands marched and protested, and even camped out in the streets.  This happened in cities across the country, large and small.  The protesters called for economic equality, environmental stewardship, and an end to government by and for the wealthy.
        I honestly doubt that the total number of Occupiers nationwide came anywhere near 200,000 (or 300,000, which would be the proportional percentage of the US population); if you have any evidence to the contrary, please present it.

        And the Occupy protests were spread out, as opposed to the Brazil protests where the 200,000 are almost all in the 2-3 largest cities.

        If Occupy could have gotten 100,000 people each to march in New York, Los Angeles, and Chicago, I think the powers that be would have responded somewhat differently.

        "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." --Dom Helder Camara, archbishop of Recife

        by JamesGG on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 08:25:02 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  The US is much more dangerous for protestors (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          AoT, Damnit Janet, Involuntary Exile

          Our government has seen fit to spend billions of our tax dollars to purchase the latest equipment for violent control of protestors.  

          Actually, Occupy had a lot of support, very large numbers.  Yes, it still rankles the Obama supporters, but it happened.  It will probably happen again, though many more people will be killed, injured and jailed.

          A horrible thing our party will have to live down for the next 50 years.  Worse than LBJ and Vietnam, much worse.

          "If you can't take their money, eat their food, drink their booze and then vote against them, you have no business being in DC."

          by Betty Pinson on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 08:39:51 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Agreed (4+ / 0-)

            We lead the world in crowd control measures and techniques.

            And of course, we now know the government has new improved and legal ways to use computers and the internet to find out who supports the protesters (dangerous terrorists!) and who lacks loyalty to the government.

            I agree that the occupy movement had a great deal of public support.

            I kept wondering in 2011 when Pres. Obama would publicly talk about the concerns of the Occupy movement.  It seemed to me a moment tailor-made for the president to take advantage.  He never did at that time, but while campaigning in 2012 did talk then about economic inequality.  And since then, nothing.

            Sadly, the take-home message is that the democratic party is not interested in the national problems of economic inequality, ending banking fraud, or a sustainable economy.

            "The fool doth think he is wise: the wise man knows himself to be a fool" - W. Shakespeare

            by Hugh Jim Bissell on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 09:11:23 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Occupy scared the heck out of Obama (6+ / 0-)

              it scared the corporate conservatives in both parties as well as their sponsors.   Obama never supported Occupy, had no intention of discussing any of the pertinent issues they raised.  The prospect of regulating Wall Street, holding those criminals accountable and pushing an agenda for job creation and economic recovery was repulsive to him.  

              The fact that Obama won re-election hasn't changed any of that.  The massive amounts of corporate money both parties "hoovered" up has made them more committed than ever to follow the corporate agenda and stifle public dissent.

              A lot of protestors have probably been harmed in ways they'll never fully realize - red flag on their files that prevents them from getting jobs, mortgages, etc.  The revelations of the last couple of weeks validated it.

              "If you can't take their money, eat their food, drink their booze and then vote against them, you have no business being in DC."

              by Betty Pinson on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 09:22:58 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  it's not Obama (0+ / 0-)

                Obama has never been the problem.  The problem has always been that we simply do not have a liberal progressive party.  Anywhere. The Dems are just Republican-Lites. They are not on our side, and have no interest in being on our side.

                And there things stand.  (shrug)

                •  I disagree (5+ / 0-)

                  Yes, Dems have always had a pro-corporate conservative wing in the party, but there's never been a Dem POTUS who has worked so thoroughly and maintained such laser-like focus on transforming the Democratic Party into a corporate financed tool for conservative policy.

                  Obama and friends have taken the tired old Reganomics policies embraced by groups like DLC/Third Way etc. polished them and elevated them to the highest level in Dem Party history.

                  Fortunately, these policies are still as shitty as they ever were and either fail immediately or eventually to capture public support.  But Obama has done real damage to the Dem Party (and to the country as well) by pursuing bad public policy.  

                  It was pervasive the damage will be long lasting, but we'll eventually get it cleaned up.  To be fair, I wish he would relinquish his stranglehold on the national party now and let us begin rebuilding it.

                  "If you can't take their money, eat their food, drink their booze and then vote against them, you have no business being in DC."

                  by Betty Pinson on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 09:35:58 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  I disagree about this. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              virginislandsguy, Aquarius40
              I agree that the occupy movement had a great deal of public support.
              So why didn't that "great deal of public support" translate to "a large number of people participating in Occupy"? That is a major question that Occupy needs to be asking itself—and, given that people who are under much more repressive regimes have mobilized much larger mass protest movements, it's not enough to just blame police brutality.
              Sadly, the take-home message is that the democratic party is not interested in the national problems of economic inequality, ending banking fraud, or a sustainable economy.
              No, I think the take-home message is that American political life continues to operate much as it always has—where those who are capable of producing the greatest amount of political pressure are the ones who see their agenda put forward.

              I think the take-home message is that whether we like it or not, the fact that we're not seeing much talk about income inequality, putting Wall Street in jail, and creating a sustainable economy, is that those who are pushing for such things are not as effective in putting pressure on political figures as those who are pushing for other priorities.

              The question, then, is not "why won't the leaders pay attention to us?"—because that puts the onus on them, rather than on us.

              The true question here is "what can we do in order to put more pressure on American political figures to put forward our interests?"

              "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." --Dom Helder Camara, archbishop of Recife

              by JamesGG on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 09:28:32 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  See all those protesters wanting more bank fraud? (2+ / 0-)
                "No, I think the take-home message is that American political life continues to operate much as it always has—where those who are capable of producing the greatest amount of political pressure are the ones who see their agenda put forward. "
                Yes - but notice the distinct lack of public protests/demonstrations for more bank fraud, or all those people marching for more deregulation of the petroleum industry, or the huge number of people saying they want tax breaks for the wealthiest Americans.

                These days political pressure is measured not by public support, but by the number of dollars you can give to a political party or candidates for office.  

                The agenda of the wealthy and corporate interests is served by our legislators because those wealthy and corporate interests are able to buy the legislators and the laws they want, not because they have massive public support.  Some weathy interests like the Kock Bros. tried to generate public support by creating the Tea Parties - but that public support has largely died.

                What we the people can do is obvious: become richer.  Of course, many Americans would like to do just that, except the laws these days make it difficult if you are currently not wealthy.

                But whether you have the wealthy enough to apply political pressure or not, the fact remains that our political system was originally founded on the idea of government of, by, and for the people.  Government of, by, and for the wealthy is antithetical to such a philosophy.

                "The fool doth think he is wise: the wise man knows himself to be a fool" - W. Shakespeare

                by Hugh Jim Bissell on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 10:08:33 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  That's not an immovable object. (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Ray Pensador, Aquarius40
                  These days political pressure is measured not by public support, but by the number of dollars you can give to a political party or candidates for office.
                  That is how political pressure is measured "these days," because those who lack dollars to donate to a party, candidate, or super PAC have not effectively used the power they do have in an effort to make it otherwise.

                  There are numerous examples just in the last five years of countries whose people had significantly less political power and were under significantly more oppressive regimes were able to make their voices heard and demand change—either by building a new power structure, or by scaring those in power to make government more responsive.

                  So "money to donate" is obviously not a timeless or unchangeable measure of political pressure, but a condition that can and should be changed... and thus, the question shifts to how the people can change that condition.

                  Or, in other words, as I asked above: "What can we do in order to put more pressure on American political figures to put forward our interests?"

                  "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." --Dom Helder Camara, archbishop of Recife

                  by JamesGG on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 12:36:02 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Guns laws? Climate change? (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Ray Pensador

                    The topics of gun laws and climate change come immediately to mind.

                    Both topics have massive popular support, yet despite that, the government does little to change either (my applause tho' to Pres. Obama for at least advocating for greater regulation of gun sales and use).

                    Despite that very popular support and a great deal of direct activism, the policies in place oppose the popular wishes.  Money wins out over popular support and activism.

                    So go ahead and tell us what we can do without money to move our government.  Yes, change has happened in other countries, typically only with violence (Iran, Libya, Egypt, ?Syria).  Is that what you are advocating?

                    Of course we could try to get richer, because the government only responds to the political pressure of money, but that would only be pouring gasoline on our burning "democracy".

                    "The fool doth think he is wise: the wise man knows himself to be a fool" - W. Shakespeare

                    by Hugh Jim Bissell on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 01:50:37 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Direct activism? Hardly. (0+ / 0-)
                      Despite that very popular support and a great deal of direct activism, the policies in place oppose the popular wishes.  Money wins out over popular support and activism.
                      There's been a lot of popular support, but really not a lot of direct activism—at least, not on the scale that we're seeing in Brazil.

                      Sure, there have been a lot of people signing online petitions, forwarding emails, and liking Facebook pages, and a few rallies and protests, but we haven't seen cities shut down because the people demand climate change legislation or better gun safety laws.

                      We haven't seen oil refineries where the trucks can't get in or out due to the mass of humanity blocking the way. The NRA met just last month at a convention center in Houston with very little difficulty; members could get in and out easily, without being blocked outside by 100,000 protesters standing against their opposition to gun safety laws.

                      So go ahead and tell us what we can do without money to move our government.
                      200,000 Brazilians are telling you pretty clearly what we can do without money to move our government.

                      "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." --Dom Helder Camara, archbishop of Recife

                      by JamesGG on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 04:04:03 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

          •  These claims need evidence. (6+ / 0-)
            The US is much more dangerous for protestors
            Than where? It's hard to argue that the US is more dangerous for protesters than Turkey, where police have killed at least five protesters. And in Brazil, we've seen the same complaints about police brutality that we saw in the US. In what way is the US more dangerous for protesters than Brazil?
            Actually, Occupy had a lot of support, very large numbers.
            What does that mean in relation to the Brazil protests? Do you have evidence that 200,000-300,000 people were participating in the Occupy protests on the street at any given time? If so, please provide it.

            Alternatively, are you suggesting that there was a large "silent majority" of sorts, who "supported" Occupy without actually going to a protest? If so, then why wouldn't this also be presumed to be the case in Brazil, where the 200,000 on the streets are presumed to be speaking for millions more who aren't there?

            "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." --Dom Helder Camara, archbishop of Recife

            by JamesGG on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 09:14:35 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Not talking about Brazil (0+ / 0-)

              Please stop trying to change the subject.  

              Instead, why don't you explain to us why Obama doesn't support peaceful protest in the US?  Why does Obama want to allow peaceful protest here?

              "If you can't take their money, eat their food, drink their booze and then vote against them, you have no business being in DC."

              by Betty Pinson on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 09:25:08 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  My initial comment—which you replied to— (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Quicklund, Aquarius40, purplehaze, emelyn

                was about Brazil, as the commenter to whom I was replying was comparing the Occupy protests to the Brazil protests in suggesting that the Brazilian government was more responsive to these protests than the US government has been to Occupy. I was explicitly saying that the Occupy protests were nowhere near as large as the Brazil protests, and thus far I have yet to be presented with any evidence to the contrary.

                If the comment to which I was initially replying was about Brazil, and my comment was about Brazil, and the overall blog post we're all commenting on is about Brazil, then wouldn't the person who explicitly doesn't want to talk about Brazil be the one who is "trying to change the subject"?

                Finally, if you really want to make this another boring "Obama rox/Obama sux" argument, you'll have to find someone else to have it with... because I'm not going to play that stupid game anymore.

                "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." --Dom Helder Camara, archbishop of Recife

                by JamesGG on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 09:35:29 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Just explain why Obama squelches protest in the US (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  SouthernLiberalinMD

                  Just explain why US citizens don't have the same freedom to exercise their first and fourth amendment rights as people in other countries do.

                  See if you can do it without the "terrorism" red herring.

                  "If you can't take their money, eat their food, drink their booze and then vote against them, you have no business being in DC."

                  by Betty Pinson on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 09:37:59 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Again, I'm not playing. (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Quicklund, Aquarius40, emelyn

                    You seem to be quite eager to make this into an "Obama rox/Obama sux" piefight, rather than discussing the subject at hand in this thread, which is comparing the Brazil protests and the Occupy protests.

                    I will ignore any further replies from you that continue along the "rox/sux" theme, rather than addressing what I actually wrote.

                    "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." --Dom Helder Camara, archbishop of Recife

                    by JamesGG on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 09:44:31 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Well--I don't know Obama's position on this (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Ray Pensador

                      but the DoD has decided to use PRISM to particularly track environmental activists, whom it designates as "domestic extremists" and sometimes as "eco-terrorists."

                      If Obama isn't in favor of this, it seems to be an extreme enough policy that he needs to come out firmly against it, yes? And put a stop to it. He is the C-i-C, after all.

                      It seems to me that Betty is quite correct in that our 1st and 4th amendment rights are essentially in the trash can. I don't know what it's going to take for people to consider this important. Is it going to take Kossacks being thrown into indefinite detention for being environmental activists?
                      How bad does it have to get before people admit something's happening?

                      Ou sont les neigedens d'antan?

                      by SouthernLiberalinMD on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 02:33:44 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                  •  He's not playing, Betty, because there is no good (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Jim Domenico

                    answer as to why Obama was mute on Occupy.  You know it, I know it, and Obama knows it.

                    If the plutocrats begin the program, we will end it. -- Eugene Debs.

                    by livjack on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 11:38:21 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                •  your deflection, evasion and concern are noted (0+ / 0-)

                  Nothing for you to see here; move along...

                  The "extreme wing" of the Democratic Party is the wing that is hell-bent on protecting the banks and credit card companies. ~ Kos

                  by ozsea1 on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 12:20:25 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

          •  Oh fiddlesticks. (5+ / 0-)

            This very story indicates the Brazilian police fired rubber bullets during these protests. I can't count how many protests / political events I was at over the past two years and I've never nothing but professionalism from the police.

            It is delusional to suggest the USA is a dangerous place for protesters.

            Actually, Occupy had a lot of support, very large numbers.  Yes, it still rankles the Obama supporters, but it happened.  It will probably happen again, though many more people will be killed, injured and jailed.
            No one was killed at Occupy events. And OWS had nothing to do with liking Mr Obama or not. that was hardly the point of OWS.
            A horrible thing our party will have to live down for the next 50 years.  Worse than LBJ and Vietnam, much worse.
            What the dickens are you talking about that is worse than Vietnam?
    •  "so hyperbolic as to be ridiculous" (11+ / 0-)

      So true as is every ridiculous diary by this diaries. A few days ago he claimed to call for a global uprising, starting with an insurrection in San Francisco that he personally called for on twitter. According to his diary, when not a single person showed up to the global uprising he called for he decided to have a panini sandwich.

      •  He has written some of the best diaries. . . (3+ / 0-)

        Perhaps concluding that a global uprising is taking place is hyperbole, perhaps he is sensing something first.

        Regardless, not all of his diaries have concerned "a global uprising" some have been some of the most informative written here in a long time regarding the corporate fascist presence sucking hope out of every corner of this country. They have been loaded with examples and well written.

        I think your statement goes way overboard.

        Blessed are the peacemakers, the poor, the meek and the sick: The "party of Jesus" wouldn't invite him to their convention - fearing his "platform."

        by 4CasandChlo on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 07:33:34 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I don't find them informative at all (11+ / 0-)

          My impression is that they are all fantasies. It's one thing to say that there are particular corrupt congresspersons, bureaucrats, etc. But the manichean diaries he writes about "all" politicians being corrupt, or the existence of a "corporate fascist presence" dominating everything are in my opinion, and I'm only offering my opinion, completely detached from reality and in the realm of crazy conspiracy theory.

          Having lived in a truly fascist country for a while (late apartheid South Africa), I have little patience for the hyperbole and nonsense that passes for analysis sometimes around here.

          •  Here's proof that you'r the one detached from (4+ / 0-)

            reality:

            1. Bill Moyers: The United States of ALEC
            2. AlterNet: America Is Ruled by Billionaires, and They Are Coming After the Last Shreds of Our Democracy     
            3. FRONTLINE: The Untouchables - FRONTLINE investigates why Wall Street’s leaders have escaped prosecution for any fraud related to the sale of bad mortgages.  

            Award-winning journalist Chris Hedges: "Rise Up or Die"

            Corporations write our legislation. They control our systems of information. They manage the political theater of electoral politics and impose our educational curriculum. They have turned the judiciary into one of their wholly owned subsidiaries. They have decimated labor unions and other independent mass organizations, as well as having bought off the Democratic Party, which once defended the rights of workers. With the evisceration of piecemeal and incremental reform—the primary role of liberal, democratic institutions—we are left defenseless against corporate power.
            Now, how's that "impression" of yours, motivated by willful ignorance is going?  Please tell.
            •  Ray, next time you need to write -- (3+ / 0-)

              a diary for HamdenRice on which hedge funds will promise the best returns in five years.  Know your audience!

              "It's not my fault reality is marxist." - Che Guevara

              by Cassiodorus on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 09:34:23 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Thanks for the links (0+ / 0-)

              I look forward to watching that FRONTLINE show in particular.

            •  None of these sources ... (5+ / 0-)

              support your -- ahem -- rather eccentric theories of the world.

              But by all means, go ahead and call another world wide global uprising at your cue from your twitter account and feel free to have another panini if not a single other human being shows up.

              •  in my 30-plus years in the movement, I've met (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Quicklund

                many like Ray.  His heart is in the right place, and he certainly has that fire in his belly that all good organizers need.  What he lacks is experience to see for himself what works and what doesn't.

                In a few years when he tempers his passion with wisdom, he will be a very very very good organizer.

              •  bull! (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Ray Pensador

                they just don't align with your pov, that's all.

                Sorry for your horrible experience in South Africa, but it doesn't make you the sole authority on what constitutes a fascistic  regime, nor does it give you cred to slag on those who notice and speak out about THIS COUNTRY slouching toward the same direction,

                Srsy, you're being a persistent diruptive d**k.

                The "extreme wing" of the Democratic Party is the wing that is hell-bent on protecting the banks and credit card companies. ~ Kos

                by ozsea1 on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 03:18:57 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Is that called trolling? Thanks for pointing out (0+ / 0-)

                  the obvious.

                •  Neither you nor Ray know what fascism is (0+ / 0-)

                  Fascism isn't just "whatever I don't like" politically. It is a very specific ideology. It's a specific theory of politics and economics and a specific form of social, political and economic organization.

                  If the US is fascist or moving toward fascism, which major political figures are arguing for the unity of state and "volk" ("folk")?

                  Tell me which previously independent cultural organizations, unions, theaters or publishing houses have had to dissolve or formally taken over by the one permitted party and state?

                  When was Dailykos forced to dissolve or be taken over?

                  When was the Green Party forced to dissolve and when were its leaders imprisoned?

                  If you can answer any of these questions, I'll entertain some of your or Ray's frankly looney ideas.

                  Correcting bald misstatements with facts is not "being a dick."

                  •  well now, you are not quite accurate (0+ / 0-)
                    If the US is fascist or moving toward fascism, which major political figures are arguing for the unity of state and "volk" ("folk")?
                    All the race-based "volk" crapola comes from Nazi-ism. It's not a part of fascism.  Mussolini's Italy was undoubtedly fascist (they invented both the word and the system), and Mussolini thought all of Hitler's racist yammerings were utter nonsense.

                    Mussolini himself gave his definition of fascism: "Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power."

                    Undeniably, we are well down that road. And indeed, given the hysteria over brown people from one of our major parties, one could safely argue that we are indeed "defending the volk".  

                    And we also have at least the beginnings of the trappings of fascism---we are already a militarized national-security surveillance state which uses military power to impose its will on other nations and police power to deal with internal dissent.

                    Are we Nazi Germany or Fascist Italy?  Nope, not even close.  But we are certainly on that road. And just like Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy,  we have chosen that road freely and voluntarily, enthusiastically.  How far down that road will we actually go?  That remains to be seen.

                    •  Except that the quote does not mean what you think (0+ / 0-)

                      First of all, Mussolini probably never said that, and if he did, it doesn't mean what you think it means.

                      There is no word for a business "corporation" in Italy or any of the Romance language countries. The equivalent of a business corporations is called a "società anonima" or in Spanish speaking countries "sociedad anonima."

                      When Italian fascists talked about "corporate" bodies, they were not talking about business corporations; they were talking about the fascist ideal that members of various functional groups, like lawyers, farmers, workers, etc., form "bodies" or corporate groups, under the control of the state. These bodies would be bound together like a bundle of sticks or sheaths of wheat ("fasces").

                      If Mussolini had said what you think he meant, he would have said, "a merger of state and the power of societas anonimas."

                      So you're simply wrong about your understanding of fascism. Moreover, Mussolini and Italian fascism were racist, and did focus on the "Italian people" although Italy didn't have as large minorities as Germany, which was in central Europe.

                      The US is nothing remotely like a fascist or proto fascist state, and no one outside maybe Aryan Nations and the KKK are arguing for anything like fascism.

                      Since when have the Koch brothers or interests like them argued FOR unionization under government control?

                      Which party is suggesting that lawyers form a single corporate body and place themselves at the service of the central federal government?

                      Which fascists in the US want the government to take over the major TV networks?

                      Most people have virtually no clue whatsoever what fascism means. It's just a word they throw around, like "poopy head."

      •  didn't he have the panini first? (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        emelyn, WakeUpNeo, HamdenRice

        and then...

        Either way, I made sure not to "waste" my entire day in planning a futile revolution, by scheduling a business meeting close-by.  At around 2:00pm, I walk a block to a nice pub/restaurant for my meeting.

        It's funny, I go to SF mainly to see if people would show up for a protest rally; nobody shows up, but I end up having an hour and a half lunch meeting with a client, and close one of the most important deals I've done in quite some time!

        Funny!

        Better Know Your Voting System with the Verifier!

        by HudsonValleyMark on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 03:13:34 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Oh, now you're going out digging other diaries and (0+ / 0-)

          putting selected quotes here.  Somebody else may point out to you that that's usually a no-no.

          Obviously, you missed the point of that diary.  If you start following me obsessively, you'll eventually get it.

          BTW, first time I have a salmone panini.  It was pretty good.

        •  Bourgeoise fake revolutionary narcisism (0+ / 0-)

          Day planner:

          1. Prepare for big business deal

          2. Call for world wide revolution

          3. Check downtown for whether prols and plebes answered call for worldwide insurrection

          4. If no insurrection, execute business deal

          5. Relax with nouvelle cuisine panini sandwich at al fresco restaurant while listening to unthreatening "smooth jazz."

          ROFL

          •  I'm actually glad to see the extraordinary effort (0+ / 0-)

            your're making at distortion.  I love, love, taking on people like you because it is kind of fun to demonstrate the lack of integrity and the vacuousness.

            Here's why you will fail in your attempt (as others have): I'm only motivated by a desire to address injustices and corruption.  I have no hidden agenda, nor dogmatic beliefs.

            I'm only interested in the unadulterated truth... And that's call intellectual honesty.

            Ten years ago I was writing about how powerful business interests will come to dominate our entire government, and how they would use 9/11 as an excuse to encircled the citizenry with a fascistic infrastructure that included a total-information-awareness surveillance police state.

            I was writing about how the population would be controlled via the effects of propaganda because of corporate media conglomeration.

            The exercise I engaged in the other day at Union Square was meant to show that in order to rise up and take to the streets you don't need to be destitute and have lost everything... That regular middle class people can schedule a little time to engage in this type of activism...

            Obviously, it seems you're very interested if what I'm doing, since you went out of your way to troll this diary.

            Again, I welcome your type of trolling, because I enjoy the process of revealing what people like you are all about.

            So, keep trolling... It will be fun.  I welcome it.

    •  Seems lot a lot of pent up anger (0+ / 0-)

      or maybe it's high unemployment and it gives people something to do - no one want to pay higher subway fares but increases are a reality of life.

      As for WC - I thought Brazilians were rabid about football....

      The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only legitimate object of good government. - Thomas Jefferson

      by ctexrep on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 07:38:34 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Please (6+ / 0-)

      Don't break with illusory narrative that we are in the process to end global plutocracy through a series of unrelated protests world wide.

    •  "Significant progress" (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Tony Situ, marsanges

      Is a bit of an overstatement. The poverty rate has dropped by abut 1 percentage point and they are not quite as high on the inequality scale, although still about the tenth worst. Maybe they're right on the edge of a big breakthrough, but in practical terms the average Brazilian hasn't seen much improvement. The media there doesn't show that reality to the people though. And once again we have a country run by socialists that is pushing a rate hike for people. Socialists in Greece and Spain pushed some of the worst austerity measures.

      If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

      by AoT on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 09:16:53 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Probably b/c they took over the governments (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        AoT, Ray Pensador, Quicklund

        when the governments were already on the mat, gasping, struggling to get up, while Big Money knelt on their backs.

        What happened in Greece and Spain was abominable. (BTW if you pay attention, you'll notice that everyone likes to talk about Greece but nobody about Spain, because you can make a moralistic argument about how Greece deserves its misfortune, which you can't do with Spain.)

        I don't automatically trust anyone b/c of a political designation (like a party or philosophy) but you might be being a little tough on those socialists--when you begin the fight at such a disadvantage, it's difficult to make the right moves, don't you think?

        Ou sont les neigedens d'antan?

        by SouthernLiberalinMD on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 02:37:50 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I practically want to kiss you after that comment. (0+ / 0-)

      Global Revolution, yeah, ok.

      "See? I'm not a racist! I have a black friend!"

      by TheHalfrican on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 12:25:50 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Weath Equality In Brazil (16+ / 0-)

    Is actually much better than in the U.S. We're way down at the bottom of the list with other failed, corrupt states like South Sudan and the Democratic Republic of Congo.

    Looking forward to Round 2 of Occupy Wall St., whatever it is called.

    "I'll believe that corporations are people when I see Rick Perry execute one."

    by bink on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 02:49:32 AM PDT

  •  our government hasnt just failed (21+ / 0-)

    It has turned against us.

    America deserves a better way.

    Coloring within the lines will NEVER get us there.

  •  Didn't realize it was about the Olympics.... (15+ / 0-)

    ....and the World Cup.

    Violent protests in Brazil over cost of World Cup and Olympics

    Protesters clash with police in Brazil as they vent their frustration about high taxes and public transport costs, as the country spends billions on hosting major sporting events.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/...

    About time some country protested those traveling shakedown cruises.

    •  yes, I was surprised no one mentioned this (8+ / 0-)

      it is a lot of frustration with all the money being spent to make brazil the world's show case with the  biggest 2 sporting events on the planet ( just for Americans, the WC would be the bigger event, the Olympics second , and by a wide margin )

      •  I think a single olympic city is so unnecessary. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Quicklund

        We have this thing called satellite communications now.

        Why can't they just have the different events in different countries -- swimming here, track and field there, etc.

        Their model is built for ancient Greece, not an interconnected world.

        (Don't know enough about the World Cup to tell how that could work in different cities, but I'm guessing not as easily. On the other hand, they don't have to build as many different types of venues as the olympics does.)

        •  World Cup 2014 is in c.12 host cities (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Quicklund

          I suppose they wouldn't all have to be in the same country. They should be in somewhat reasonable traveling distance.

          Better Know Your Voting System with the Verifier!

          by HudsonValleyMark on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 04:11:19 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  FIFA, who organize the world cup, (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ladybug53, Eric Blair, AoT, Quicklund

          require no fewer than 9 different host stadiums... but they have to be "nice" stadiums, i.e. fit for the global elite, i.e., super expensive.  Plus all the 'necessary' infrastructure projects, etc., that get tagged on as well.

          As we saw in South Africa, sometimes the country doesn't have enough high-income folks to fill the stadiums afterwards, and they sit as empty hulks.  But FIFA has already washed their hands of you and moved on.

          FIFA is also deadset against multi-country hosts, even though they acknowledge it worked the one time they tried it.  Granted, there are practical concerns...  Two concerns are that the host team automatically qualifies for one of the coveted 32 spots, so the more hosts you have, the fewer spots there are for other teams... and if you're going back and forth between two countries outside the Schengen zone, you can run into the usual difficulties.

          Conservatives need to realize that their Silent Moral Majority is neither silent, nor moral, nor a majority.

          by nominalize on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 07:34:06 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  South Africa had pretty good attendance, actually. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            leftangler

            See: World Cup Attendance figures

            The 2010 World Cup in South Africa had the 5th highest average attendance, at 49,670 per game.  The 1994 World Cup in the US had the highest average per game attendance at 68,991, but that particular World Cup is an outlier as no other World Cup has been even close to that in average attendance.  The 2nd highest average attendance was the 2006 World Cup in Germany, at 52,491 per game, and the South African attendance is very close to that.

            I recall during the 2010 World Cup, there were lots of articles written that trashed the South African World Cup for low attendance.  Those stories were bullshit and based on ignorance of World Cup history (and I suspect an effort to show that Africa is incapable of hosting a large international event "properly").  It's always been the case that the World Cup had plenty of games with low attendance (usually games that involve neither the "big names" nor the host country), no matter where the World Cup is played, be it Europe, South America, Mexico, Africa, Asia.

            Speaking of Asia, there's a perception that the 2002 World Cup in Korea/Japan had monster attendance.  In fact, it's pretty far down on the list at 11th place at only 42,269 per game, well below South Africa's attendance.

            •  When I talk about low attendance, (0+ / 0-)

              I talk about the period after the World Cup, once the world's worth of people went home.  Neither the soccer or rugby pro leagues come close to filling the stadiums; the national teams and star concerts only fill them on an occasional basis.  
               

              Conservatives need to realize that their Silent Moral Majority is neither silent, nor moral, nor a majority.

              by nominalize on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 07:16:26 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Ah, ok. (0+ / 0-)

                But I think it was worth it for South Africa's pride, morale, public spirit.  Sometimes cities and countries want to do things just for the uplift, lift the people's spirits, make a statement to the world that "we've arrived."  South Africa didn't have existing facilities, so they had to build them, to host the WC.  I don't know if they think it's worth it now, but I think they thought it was worth it at the time, judging from listening to South African talk radio via the web (www.702.co.za).

                Of course, the ideal is to be able to host big events like the WC using already existing facilities, like the US did.  The US used already existing NFL and college football stadiums, which only needed minor, if at all, renovations and tweaks to host FIFA games.

          •  FIFA also insists on rotating continents/regions (0+ / 0-)

            which is also bullshit. Do we really need to rotate all over the planet? England can't host for awhile because Germany did recently, and the US is out for awhile I dunno why, because every other region has hosted other than Oceania, and you have no teams there that can play competitively ( well the US couldn't in 94 but hey, and they still aren't world beaters, but FIFA wanted the game to catch on in the US. It still isn't a big sport here, but it is taken somewhat more seriously than in the days when people asked, does it hurt to head the ball? )

        •  they kinda do, some events are not in the main (0+ / 0-)

          city, like soccer, where only the final rounds are in the host city. Birmingham hosted some Olympic soccer in 96, and other cities hosted soccer in 2000 in Australia, notably the Melbourne Cricket ground, where the US had a good run with a 17 yr old Landon Donovan, losing the bronze to Chile

      •  Not to mention the violent police crack (9+ / 0-)

        downs in the favelas to make the cities pretty before the games.

        •  Sweep it under the rug! Company's coming. That's (4+ / 0-)

          the part that angers me. Why can't countries parlay the national pride into something real and use these times of preparing for visitors to really improve with quality infrastructure instead of whitewash?
               I do think we should spend money on the arts and sciences and sports because that stimulates invention. But not at the cost of poverty and desolation in a country with plenty of food and money.
               Many years ago a company that made a profit was hugely taxed and this great country was built. When did integrity fly out the window and tax avoidance become a source of pride for people with money? It's unAmerican I tell ya.
               

        •  and.... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          erush1345

          again, I'd like the links, because in some measure that violent crackdown has occurred to dislodge the drug gangs whose wars have made the favelas an unbelievable violent place to live.  More recently, the national and Rio state governments have made significant efforts to provide services and title to some of these areas.  

          So if by "violent crackdown" you mean actual policing against heavily armed gangs, yeah, I guess you could say that.

          Touch all that arises with a spirit of compassion. An activist seeks to change opinion.

          by Mindful Nature on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 07:24:16 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  I'm reminded of the three Trotskyites (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        jiffypop, virginislandsguy

        who manage to jump in the front of every march with their banner announcing a completely unrelated sentiment.

        "We're now in one of those periods when the reality of intense pressure on the middle class diverges from long-held assumptions of how the American bargain should work" --James Fallows

        by Inland on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 05:45:40 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  There are some websites (5+ / 0-)

      where you can see what has happened to Olympic sites once the Olympics are over.  The sites in Athens and Sarajevo, for example, are largely abandoned.  But the phenomenon isn't limited to troubled places.  Some locations in Beijing are derelict too.  The iconic "bird's nest" stadium is well on its way to becoming the equivalent of a Mayan ruin, less than 5 years after the 2008 games concluded.

      A terrible beauty is born. --W.B. Yeats

      by eightlivesleft on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 07:21:22 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Sarajevo was ruined by war (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        eightlivesleft

        To be fair, Sarajevo should be left out of the study due to that very impactful special case.

        Though my personal biases agree with what you say. It's always struck me as massively wasteful to built billion-dollar facilities for a single-use event. The world is coered in enough cement as is.

    •  violent protests over sporting events costs? (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      MRobDC, GreenMother, Aquarius40

      And in Turkey there were violent protests (with multiple people killed) over a shopping mall.

      Is it just me, or are the causes of big protests this year rather mundane compared with the causes of protests in previous years?

      I'm sorry, I know that lots of progressives like to support any big protest anywhere around the world as a monumental "speak truth to power" event, but neither this protest in Brazil nor that in Turkey hit me in the gut with an emotional chord.  

      •  Is that a serious question? n/t (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        lostinamerica, happymisanthropy
      •  you're not very perceptive, are you (3+ / 0-)

        The American Revolution started because of a tax on tea.  Remember?

        •  Anything to minimize any challenge to the (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Ray Pensador

          status quo.

           It apparently doesn't matter the content, anything resembling populism around here requires a swift defense of whatever the current purveyor of the status quo is. Especially if that purveyor of the status quo has money.

          I had a bunch of people in my diary defending Time magazine, the other day.

          Also it's important to find ways to defame or diminish the people mounting a resistance to the status quo.

          Like, I bet those people in Brazil only have a GED.

          Ou sont les neigedens d'antan?

          by SouthernLiberalinMD on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 02:44:45 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  My, you do love the sound of your own voice. lol (0+ / 0-)

            Just because I don't consider cost of sporting events and the building of a shopping mall to be monumental issues worth violent protests and multiple deaths, I'm protecting the status quo?  I don't even live in Turkey or Brazil.  How am I protecting the status quo?  Get over yourself.

            I've been in multiple protests and demonstrations in my day, against the status quo.  But they were concerning issues more profound, IMO, than a shopping mall or sporting event costs.  Now, if others consider shopping malls and sporting events costs to be earth shaking issues, more power to them.  I'm just saying, for ME, those issues do not strike an emotional chord.  How dare you write the above insults in response.

            •  Not anymore than the average bear. (0+ / 0-)

              It would be great if some other voice would come up with some ideas for how to save our bacon globally, because I feel like I'm scraping the bottom of the barrel here. But it's hard to get to that point when all you get is pie fights and talking points that support the status quo and cast doubt on the characters of the people fighting for change and doubt on the value or validity of the fight.

              Ou sont les neigedens d'antan?

              by SouthernLiberalinMD on Wed Jun 19, 2013 at 10:59:23 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  Yes, it is a big deal (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        SouthernLiberalinMD

        And if you think that tearing down the last bit of green in a city district is no big deal, and that those were the only reasons these things are happening, then you clearly haven't been paying much attention.

        This is about gentrification as much as anything else. Or at least the international version of it.

        If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

        by AoT on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 09:33:36 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  You really believe that protests would be only (2+ / 0-)

        over sporting events or a mall?

        Try thinking deeper.

        Who would benefit from minimizing these  protests by misrepresenting their focus?

        What might a mall represent or a sporting event--beyond the surface?

      •  You're focused on the spark not the tinder (0+ / 0-)

        To offer another metaphor, the catalyst is not as significant as the reaction.

      •  Probably because you don't understand (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Ray Pensador

        that not having a say in one's local affairs is a problem.
        Including not having a say in how one's tax money is spent.

        Ou sont les neigedens d'antan?

        by SouthernLiberalinMD on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 02:41:19 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  The Olympics a financial nightmare? who knew? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Ray Pensador, Bush Bites

      oh wait, EVERYBODY. The IOC are total dicks of insufferable measure and they suck host cities dry like the Monorail Salesmen they are. Chicago woulda wound up billions in the red if they had "won".

      "See? I'm not a racist! I have a black friend!"

      by TheHalfrican on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 12:41:44 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Sort of like here, where public funds (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Ray Pensador, Bush Bites

      are funneled into building stadiums for private owners of sports franchises, while the public services of the cities suffer.

      Tax breaks are also a popular away to achieve the same ends.

      Ou sont les neigedens d'antan?

      by SouthernLiberalinMD on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 02:39:15 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  This isn't an uprising (6+ / 0-)

    It's a protest. And the more destructive they become, the less successful its going to be.

    BTW the rise cost of public transportation is an increase in bus fares from 3 reals to 3.20 reals. In dollars that $1.38 to $1.47.

  •  like these protests don't happen much around the (7+ / 0-)

    world. Anything to fit your unsubstantiated narrative. Proletariat unite!

    •  i felt the wave of revolution in Starbucks today (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      cryonaut, emelyn

      the baristas established a commune within the shop

      the soldiers ultimately gunned us down amongst the coffee beans, but the blood of our proletariat martyrs soaked the ground so that new coffee beans of FREEDOM may grow

      "See? I'm not a racist! I have a black friend!"

      by TheHalfrican on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 12:45:06 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Coffee is a pretty loaded subject to joke about (0+ / 0-)

        I know you're just enjoying yourself and engaging in a little friendly hippie punching. But from who grows it to who sells it and they tiny percentage each gets from the profits, coffee is a big issue.

        Don't trust anyone over 84414

        by BentLiberal on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 01:03:08 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Ha, I love the "wave it all away" reactionaries (11+ / 0-)

    with my morning coffee.

    "Nothing to see here, Good Citizen! Move along...your Narrative is unnecessary and pedantic...."

    LOL! Yeah, of course it is. Until it isn't.

    "The “Left” is NOT divided on the need to oppose austerity and the Great Betrayal. The Third Way is not left or center or even right. It is Wall Street on the Potomac."--Bill Black

    by lunachickie on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 06:10:22 AM PDT

  •  The boots on the ground (5+ / 0-)

    in this operation, the number 200,000, makes me sit bolt upright and take notice.

    I love me the smell of mass unrest first thing in the morning.  

    (I am not only tipping, but recommending a damn Ray Pensador diary :)

    It's here they got the range/ and the machinery for change/ and it's here they got the spiritual thirst. --Leonard Cohen

    by karmsy on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 06:15:17 AM PDT

  •  Time to ask the important questions! (16+ / 0-)

    How is this COMPLETELY different from America, and thus can be condemned by Americans?

    How much Damage did the Protestors cause, and who will pay for it?

    Were there any reported cases of something related to sex that we can use to smear the protestors?

    How are terrorists/communists involved?  Specifics please!

    /snark

    I don't blame Christians. I blame Stupid. Which sadly is a much more popular religion these days.

    by detroitmechworks on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 06:38:43 AM PDT

  •  Glenn must be so proud... (5+ / 0-)

    ...surely as the world's most important journalist he was right there with the crowds in his chosen home country. One hopes he's not too busy smearing President Obama to be engaged with politics where he lives.

    "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." -- Einstein

    by reginahny on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 06:45:46 AM PDT

    •  "Smearing President Obama" (13+ / 0-)

      It's terribly sad people think of things like this. Snowden, and by extension Glenn, exposed the spying of NSA on American citizens.

      Obama knows about the spying, but so did our last, and if things keep pace, so will our next. Tribalism isn't really helpful; both parties will spy on innocent Americans.

      •  Obama is hurting his own reputation (3+ / 0-)

        He's the one responsible for poor decision-making WRT to spying on Americans. Surely he knew the consequences before he made such terrible choices.

        It's on Obama's shoulders, he has to take responsibility for it.  We can only hope he doesn't tarnish the reputation of the rest of the Dem Party in the process.

        "If you can't take their money, eat their food, drink their booze and then vote against them, you have no business being in DC."

        by Betty Pinson on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 08:47:10 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  what a gross comment (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      paradox, Eric Blair, BentLiberal

      One hopes that people with higher (as in more worthy, morally superior) principles than defending the most powerful person in the world are politically active in this country, and in Brazil.

      •  I would only add that they are simple (1+ / 0-)

        Worthy, morally superior principles perhaps may be in the minds of some as some elusive, difficult-to-reach lofty goals that philosophers reach.

        Not in the least; usually morally superior goals are simple and easy to follow.  Peace, not violence.  Take care of the children, look after the planet, never advance goals at the expense of others.

        [small shrug] Just a small clarification, that's all. I share you intrinsic repulsiveness to the horribly narrow window of soul that spit out this venom, so very much has gone wrong and so many are hurting so horribly, but it always just seems to go unnoticed, Glenn Greenwald, he can be some kind of sick foil for it all.

        There's a day ahead of us.  I shall keep some hope in my pocket.

    •  The only countries not having these issues (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Matt Z, BroadwayBaby1

      on a wide scale are those like Canada, Scandinavian countries, etc...but those countries also have great additional revenue source that rhymes with 'boil'...

      I was gonna listen to that, but then, um, I just carried on living my life. - Aldous Snow

      by GoGoGoEverton on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 07:19:48 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You mean those countries (0+ / 0-)

        That have larger degrees of functional socialism (putting the People first) built into their governments.

        "Political ends as sad remains will die." - YES 'And You and I' ; -8.88, -9.54

        by US Blues on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 07:34:57 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Plenty of countries have the same systems (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          jiffypop, erush1345, Quicklund

          and are not doing nearly as well.

          Don't worry about telling me what I mean; check yourself first.

          I was gonna listen to that, but then, um, I just carried on living my life. - Aldous Snow

          by GoGoGoEverton on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 07:49:27 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  +1 Nations who respect their citizens (0+ / 0-)

          don't seem to be having these problems.

          Nations who are careful not to allow multinational corporations to control their government and corrupt their politicians don't have these problems.

          When you live in a country where your government works for you, its a much different world.

          "If you can't take their money, eat their food, drink their booze and then vote against them, you have no business being in DC."

          by Betty Pinson on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 08:51:12 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Brazil has been fighting to climb (9+ / 0-)

            tooth and nail out of what was called "3rd world nation status".  

            Since most people here don't seem to know much about Brazil and Brazilian politics - may I point out that Brazilians suffered under a right wing totalitarian military dictatorship from 1964 to 1985.

            As my many friends in Brazil have pointed out (those who are my age and older) the bulk of the young people you see in the streets protesting were born after the fall of what many have called fascism in Brazil.

            Yes, they are pushing for even faster change, but if you liken this to some sort of "protest the oligarchy" movement you are dead wrong.  

            Brazil historically was the largest slave state in the New World.  It has the largest black population - second only to Nigeria.

            Are there problems - yes.  Economic inequality persists, much of it tied to skin color, though not the way we dub it here, since most "white" Brazilians would be black in the U.S. Treatment of Brazil's indigenous population is still a major cause for world concern (not that ours is much better)

            The rise - in a short period of time of a democratic socialist Labor Party into power, spearheaded by Lula (Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva) a man who didn't complete grade school, came from poverty, and who is not "white" in a U.S. sense (most Brazilians  think of him as "pardo" mixed ancestry)
            is an amazing accomplishment.

            Brazil currently has become energy self-sufficient - and all cars are flex fuel.  

            It is developing as a major left of center player in this hemisphere.

            Brazil has National Health Care, and the US tried to take it to court when they distributed generic AIDS drugs for free - violating BigPharma's stranglehold on the cocktails.

            When in Brazil, I can ride the bus for free - because of my age.  I can (even as a visitor) use free health services.

            Are conditions bad in many favelas? Yes.  
            Are they in any way comparable to conditions there in very recent history - no.

            Students who go to public university (not private) go free. And get a stipend.

            Most of the demonstrations recently have been peaceful, and the police over-reaction has been condemned , but I'd like to point out that so has the trashing of stores and cars and spaces by a small segment of the protesters.

            Having watched friends killed in Chile, under a similar regime to Brazil's dictatorship, not so very long ago,  please keep in mind that ordinary Brazilians haven't forgotten the heavy arm of the military, including kidnapping, torture, imprisonment, forced disappearance, and murder.

            See National Truth
             Commission

            So, contrary to what seems to be expressed in this diary - what you are seeing is not Occupy part 2 , Brazilian style.

            Nor is it a revolution. It is a protest. A large and vocal one.

            Join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news and views written from a black pov—everyone is welcome.

            by Denise Oliver Velez on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 10:47:42 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  You don't understand. Protesters anywhere (4+ / 0-)

              =Occupy. There is even a guy in a Guy Fawkes mask pictured above.

              /snark

            •  I disagree with your entire analysis. You don't (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Cassiodorus

              get 240,000 people across major cities to rise up in this type of protest based on your analysis.

              Again, I'm using sourced material, including the BBC report, and the video by the young man explaining the reasons why they are rising up.

              It is about corruption, and subjugation, and the spending of exorbitant amounts of money on sports stadiums while the society is being neglected.

              •  I agree with Denise Oliver Velez (3+ / 0-)

                and I find your reasoning specious.

                You don't get 240,000 people across major cities to rise up in this type of protest based on your analysis.
                Brazil: population 196 million (2011)

                Wisconsin: population 5.7  million (2012)

                Proportionally speaking, 240,000 Brazilians is roughly the same fraction as 7,000 Wisconsinites.

                In Wisconsin during 2011, many protests occurred.

                From Wiki:

                The protests and demonstrations began following Walker's introduction of Assembly Bill 11[39][40] to the Wisconsin State Assembly on February 15, 2011. This bill became known as the "Budget Repair Bill" to proponents, and the "Collective Bargaining, or Union Busting Bill" to opponents.

                On February 15, tens of thousands of protesters demonstrated in and around the Capitol building in Madison[43][44] regarding the proposed legislation's limitations on collective bargaining for and against Walker's bill.[45] "Kill the Bill" remained one of the main slogans of the protesters.

                Huh.

                In one single day the proportional equivalent of 750,000 or more Brazilians marched in protest due to a governmental action.

                This isn't a revolution. This is what democracy looks like.

                •  I agree with her too, and when I find myself (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Quicklund, Denise Oliver Velez

                  agreeing with Quicklund, it always worries me.

                  ;)

                •  People can clearly see who's argument is (0+ / 0-)

                  specious here.  Amazing you took the time to write that absurdity, with numbers and all.  Funny, actually.  Moving on...

                  •  None as blind (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Denise Oliver Velez, emelyn

                    as those who turn their nose up at math, the one pure science.

                    But more to the point, the only thing you offered up in your specious rationale is basically, 240,000 is a lotta Brazillians so this must be a revolution.

                    Well, Brazilian (faux) revolutions don't got nothing over Wisconsin protests. By which I mean, it is good to see our Brazilian brothers and sisters out protesting and urge the  gov't to continue growing the naiscent Brazilian democracy and to rein in further police abuses. Solidarity.

                    •  Specious vs. fallacious... Let's see: (0+ / 0-)

                      First, in any country, whether the population is 1 billion or 50 million, or 200 million, a sustained uprising/protest where upwards of 250,000 people take to the streets, it is considered something of great significance and of great concerned by the powers that be.

                      So your absurd and illogical attempt at undermining the importance of this uprising in Brazil is not only specious, but fallacious.

                      Number two, the underlying reason people are taking to the streets is because of the level of corruption and subjugation people are enduring at the hands of an increasingly disconnected moneyed ruling class.

                      Number three, those same conditions are afflicting many other Western countries, including the U.S.

                      You see, no matter how specious, fallacious, or intellectually dishonest your line of argument may be, you will never be able to negate these truisms I listed here.

                      And anybody with half a brain can see that.  But again, I enjoy taking on people like you.

                      •  See? You can't stay on topic. (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        emelyn

                        I said nothing to undermine the Brazilian protests. In fact I praised them for being a manifestation of a healthy democracy taking root in yet another nation. What you are calling a revolution I am calling part of the democratic process.

                        Unless you are of the opinion "democracy" is in itself inherently slanderous, you have nothing to stand on making this charge.

            •  Thank you (3+ / 0-)

              Interesting and informative and refreshingly free of hyperbole and presumption.

            •  Very good analysis. n/t (3+ / 0-)

              Article 196. Health care is a right of all persons and an obligation of the State, guaranteed through social and economic policies that provide...universal and equitable access to programs and services....

              by SLKRR on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 12:23:13 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  it's very similar to South Africa (3+ / 0-)

              Since South Africa emerged from apartheid, it has made tremendous gains for its people.  Huge numbers of housing were built and made available, at cheap prices, to people who had until then been living in tin shantytowns.  Massive jobs programs pulled many people out of poverty. Wealth was redistributed at a massive rate, downwards.

              And yet much remains.  There are still slums and shantytowns in every city. Crime rates are enormously high, as desperate people do what they must to stay alive. Unemployment and underemployment are still massive problems. Corruption permeates the government and the police (ask me sometime about how I bribed a South African cop).

              Because of that, there are protests and demonstrations in Pretoria every weekend. Cops move in, heads get cracked.

              But that does not mean the protesters want an end to the government. It means they want their government to WORK.

      •  Actually there were massive protests (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        AoT

        in Quebec against austerity about a year ago.

        I'm truly sorry Man's dominion Has broken Nature's social union--Robert Burns

        by Eric Blair on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 08:38:28 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Scandinavia more than Canada (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Aquarius40

        Canada's been jostled less than the US in the economic turmoil but she is challenged to pay for her social net too, is the impression I get. But certainly Norway with its small population and North Sea oil revenue is having a much easier time of it. Small, cohesive nations have a marked advantage. Norwegians seem to agree to a great deal what is good for Norway.

        •  make no mistake, Norway has been hit too (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Quicklund

          When I was there two summers ago, people would always remark that the recession has impacted them too. And indeed they have made a number of cutbacks, some of them unpopular.  But they are VERY VERY careful not to impact on any of the social programs that really help their people, and to make their cuts elsewhere.

          They know their priorities, and no major political party (I happened to be there during election time) disputes those priorities.

          •  Oil comes and goes. National cohesion is lasting (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Aquarius40

            The Norge put their oil revenues into a sustaining national fund instead of squandering them. (As I understand things.) That sort of social cohesion is a powerful good for a nation. But it is easier to achieve in smaller populations. In the USA, it's pretty much a pipe dream. :)

            •  well, they have a small population, but (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Quicklund

              they have a small economy, too.

              Per capita, there's no reason we can't do just as well as they do.  We are, after all, the richest society that has ever existed in all of human history.

              •  That's not really what I said (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Tony Situ

                My only point was to observe how smaller populations have certain advantages over larger populations. Or if not plural advantages than at least one. in this case Norway has a better social net because the vast bulk of Norwegian society agrees with making that net a national priority. The Us is much more fractured on this issue and thus has not gone nearly as far down that path.

                •  ah, I see. Yes if there is one thing Occupy taught (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Tony Situ, Quicklund

                  us, it is that small groups are much better for decision-making and consensus-building than large groups are.

                  But Norway also had the advantage, ironically, of having an enlightened exploiting class, who freely admitted that they supported the social network enthusiastically because, as my Norwegian professor friend put it, "Happy workers don't make revolutions".

                  •  Enlightened is as enlightened does (0+ / 0-)

                    Social stratification will always be with us but I don't see the upper class as the exploiting class in a society where everyone gets a fair shake. "Happy workers don't make revolutions"... that pretty much sums up the working classes' demands and leverage. Message received, i'd say.

                    It's been a long time since I had a Norwegian friend but I have the rare experience of having a Norwegian family live across the street from me while I was in 1st grade. They had a son my age and we were good pals while they lived here.

                    •  well, I'm a marxist and you're not ;) (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Quicklund, marsanges

                      My Norwegian friend is a professor of geology at the University of Oslo.

                      So I got to have a nice long behind-the-scenes look at the "Ida" fossil before it opened for display.

                      •  Then enlighten me :) (0+ / 0-)

                        What is the goal of society other than to provide people with the opportunity for a happy life? I don't see happiness as belonging to a particular ideology (or excluded from any either.)

                        •  oh, I can accept that as the social goal (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Quicklund

                          I'm referring more to this:

                          I don't see the upper class as the exploiting class in a society where everyone gets a fair shake.
                          I think any society with an upper class is, inherently, not one where everyone gets a fair shake.
                          •  That is artificial (0+ / 0-)

                            That imposes one person's value system upon another. If I am happy working for a lower wage in exchange for some other benefit, who's business is it of yours to tell me I cannot live my life that way? Is not happiness a personal affair?

                            Besides, what you envision has no example in biology or in recorded history. Goals should be achievable.

                          •  every social system is artificial. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            marsanges

                            Every social system imposes someone's values onto someone else.

                            Every social system tells someone how to live their life.

                            I don't worry about wages--wages are an element of a capitalist system and don't exist in any other economic system.

                            And until 1789, elected democratic governments did not exist in biology or recorded history either. And every king in Europe said democracy was an unachievable goal, because obviously people were too stupid to rule themselves (and ironically the Founding Fathers agreed with them--they were both wrong).

                            (shrug)

                          •  I worded that poorly (0+ / 0-)

                            I suspect a static system cannot thrive. But that's getting too far off track. If a society developed in which everyone was satisfied with their lot, I'd accept that as a fair society.

                          •  in the economic sense (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Quicklund
                            If a society developed in which everyone was satisfied with their lot, I'd accept that as a fair society.
                            I'd agree.

                            Every society has to strive continuously in areas like science and technology, though.  And of course, as Mazlow so brilliantly pointed out, that is only possible when the first steps of the social hierarchy--economic necessities--are fulfilled.

                            The excuse given by apologists for capitalism--that such advances are only possible through a system of private profit--is simply silly.  The most basic and important achievements in human culture----fire, stone tools, metal smelting, pottery, brick, textile weaving--were all made solely for their social utility.  Their inventors didn't get a dime of profit from them. Humans are driven to create and to improve our creations. That requires no profit motive.

                            (And indeed as an aside, it's not usually the inventor of something that profits from it even today--the idea is simply bought out by some corporation who then makes a ton of money after paying the inventor a pittance.)

                          •  Well, my inventions went straight to my employer (0+ / 0-)

                            That was a condition of employment, standard in the industry. But at least my employer paid decent bonuses for patents regardless of the utility of the patent. So in some cases the inventor would be paid thousands more than the invention was worth,in other cases teh fraction would be in "pittance" territory.

                            But I worked at another corp which paid a flat legal minimum fee of $1/patent. :(

                          •  good (0+ / 0-)

                            I am happy to see that educated marxists are still around in the US. But elected democratic governments, to be fair, they werent a new invention in 1789. (Or 1776). It wasnt a great new discovery. You can trace the history of such representative rule through to the deeps of time. Thats some of the good hidden in humans, they do have this idea and will keep coming up with it even if they are wholly on their own.

                          •  Everyone should see the Happy Movie as you are (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Quicklund

                            quite correct in pointing out happiness as a goal of organized society and one which has no idealogical base.

                            "If the past sits in judgment on the present, the future will be lost." Winston Churchill

                            by Kvetchnrelease on Wed Jun 19, 2013 at 06:15:35 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Mazlow's Hierarchy is actually a good starting (0+ / 0-)

                            point.  Economic security comes first.  Nothing else can be sustained without that.

                            Alas, global corporate capitalism fails at that. With all its massive productive capacity, it can't even feed everyone. (Or, more correctly, it doesn't WANT to feed everyone--it only wants to feed people who have the money to pay for food, since the goal of the system is to take the money, not to feed anybody.)

                            It's a fail.

                          •  Actually, Grimm's Fisherman & His Wife is better. (0+ / 0-)

                            http://www.authorama.com/...

                            And yes, "economic security" is a fairy tale.

                            "If the past sits in judgment on the present, the future will be lost." Winston Churchill

                            by Kvetchnrelease on Wed Jun 19, 2013 at 08:18:09 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  a fairy tale, huh . . . . (0+ / 0-)

                            That's pretty funny.

                          •  In the sense that do hedge fund managers have (0+ / 0-)

                            economic security? It's been 30 years since I read Maslow, but a hierarchy of needs doesn't equate to a priori happiness.

                            "If the past sits in judgment on the present, the future will be lost." Winston Churchill

                            by Kvetchnrelease on Wed Jun 19, 2013 at 08:31:03 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  yeah, pity the poor hedge fund managers (0+ / 0-)

                            It must be awful to live that way.

                            (snicker)

      •  You talk to a Canadian lately? (0+ / 0-)

        They have their own issues, thank you. They're trying to fight the Americanization of their Health Care system last I checked.

        And Islamophobia is spreading like a virus in Scandinavian countries. Much worse than over here. Word to Brevik. Osama once boasted that he had no beef with these countries? Well that's over with. Plenty of folk over there are all on board for a war again Islam.

        "See? I'm not a racist! I have a black friend!"

        by TheHalfrican on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 12:53:55 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  this is certainly true: (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Quicklund
          And Islamophobia is spreading like a virus in Scandinavian countries.
          In Norway, there is also a lot of resentment at the large number of eastern Europeans (especially "gypsies") that have emigrated to Oslo.

          Nothing like the virulence that we have here, but it is there, and it worries many Norwegians.

          (I happened to be there literally a week after the mass shooting/bombing.)

    •  oh brother. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Ray Pensador

      that's all you got out of this diary, a vehicle for how you could tie it to that douchenozzle Glenn to smack him down another notch for daring -the nerve of that guy!- to question our govt, while adding in a gratuitous dash of martyrdom for poor, poor President Obama.

      (meanwhile, back in the real world, Glenn Greenwald and Obama have absolutely zero to do with this diary)

      "Watch what you say or they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, fanatical, criminal..."-7.75, -5.54

      by solesse413 on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 02:31:26 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  you don't know a damn thing about Brazil (18+ / 0-)

    do you?

    Because you do realize that the leftists have been in power for a considerable length of time, with a tremendous movement in social welfare and development of the kinds of government action we can only be jealous of.  I love it that you fail to mention what the protests are about AT ALL (a fare hike).

    Only on dailykos can we see people defend Chavez's regime while decrying the PT.  

    Touch all that arises with a spirit of compassion. An activist seeks to change opinion.

    by Mindful Nature on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 07:13:38 AM PDT

  •  what this is about (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    HamdenRice, FG, protectspice, Quicklund, SLKRR

    this is about  a huge portion of poor moving into middle class.
    Brazil has had a long history of government corruption.

    Before you had a country that people were  very rich or very poor . The very rich put up with government corruption because it kept the status quo (and some benefited from the corruption ). The very poor felt powerless against the government .

    Now that many have moved to the middle class they are now paying taxes and are demanding  that the corruption end and government actually work for the people.

    "Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative." - John Stuart Mill

    by smartone on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 07:24:20 AM PDT

  •  PLease stop making up stuff (10+ / 0-)

    The amount of just total garbage and falsehood y'all are putting forth in these comments really puts folks in a bad light.  It really seems like ugly American hour around here.

    Please, do a little research first.  thanks

    Touch all that arises with a spirit of compassion. An activist seeks to change opinion.

    by Mindful Nature on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 07:25:24 AM PDT

  •  This woman gives some good background (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Tony Situ

    Obama: self-described Republican; backed up by right-wing policies

    by The Dead Man on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 07:31:47 AM PDT

  •  Look at that second picture... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    HamdenRice, Aquarius40, emelyn

    the one of the youths lighting something on fire.

    It doesn't exactly evoke the photography of Dorothea Lange, does it?

    No, it looks more like a Benetton ad.

    To those who tipped/rec'd this nonsense, please get a clue.

    How about I believe in the unlucky ones?

    by BenderRodriguez on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 07:36:51 AM PDT

    •  Bender, Bender, never fail to run around with (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Damnit Janet, happymisanthropy

      your hair on fair asking people not to recc me.  It's actually intriguing when somebody gets so obsessed.

      You're offended because the kids are letting up some steam.  Aren't we goodie-two-shoes, obedient servants to the truly brutal oligarchy?

      Are you offended by the thousands and thousands of people who have left their brain matter splatter all over the place when they decided to take their own lives as a direct result of criminal collusion by Wall Street banksters who are easily identifiable, and whom our own government refuses to prosecute?

      That my friend, I find very offensive.  Setting up a couple of trashcans on fire? Meh, not so much.

      •  You couldn't have missed my point more... (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        erush1345, Aquarius40, emelyn

        if you tried, pal.

        The actions of the youths in that picture didn't bother me in the least, but it looks more like a Benetton ad than it does, say, the photography of Dorothea Lange, who captured the desperation of Americans during the Great Depression.

        Sorry if my Dorothea Lange reference confused you; I assumed, perhaps incorrectly, that you were old enough or at least educated enough to catch what I meant.

        "Thousands and thousands" have killed themselves because of Wall Street's criminal activity? Thousands and thousands? Do you mean over the course of the history of our country? Just this century? Do you have any facts to back up this claim? Do you have an allergic reaction to facts, babe?

        And, please, get over yourself. Obsessed? Not a chance. I ignore 98% of your diaries.

        But sometimes your diaries are so far removed from reality, I have to comment.

        And I never fail to get a rise out of you when I do so.

        It's fun.

        How about I believe in the unlucky ones?

        by BenderRodriguez on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 08:23:38 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  There's nothing I find more repulsive (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Ray Pensador, protectspice

          than the line "get over yourself".  The arrogance, the assumption of one's own superiority, the easy dism,issal of anotgher person's very humanity, I find repulsive.  It also tends to be used wioth much more frequency by those with an authoritarian turn.  I know it was repeatedly used against me in the run-up to the Iraq War by its advocates, seeking not just to dismiss my arguments again st that was, but to dismiss me as a person.  

          "You may very well think so, I could not possibly comment." ~ Francis Urquhart, pragmatic political philosopher

          by ActivistGuy on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 08:30:23 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I was using the line very specifically. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Quicklund, Aquarius40

            You see, once in a blue moon, I'll make a critical comment in one of Ray's diaries.

            Ray, for whatever reason, assumes criticism of his work means I'm "obsessed" with him.

            That's why I told the diarist, as I've probably told him before, that he needs to get over himself.

            I don't feel superior; nor am I dismissing his humanity. I'm merely challenging the diarist's opinion, and he takes offense.

            How about I believe in the unlucky ones?

            by BenderRodriguez on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 08:36:39 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Bender, the problem with your asinine comments (0+ / 0-)

          is that I can easily and demonstrably crush them, with little effort.  The reason for that is because what you're doing comes through in a pretty transparent way for the casual observer, making my job at exposing you much more easier.  It's kind of boring, to tell you the truth.

          New York Times: How Austerity Kills

          In the United States, the suicide rate, which had slowly risen since 2000, jumped during and after the 2007-9 recession. In a new book, we estimate that 4,750 “excess” suicides — that is, deaths above what pre-existing trends would predict — occurred from 2007 to 2010. Rates of such suicides were significantly greater in the states that experienced the greatest job losses. Deaths from suicide overtook deaths from car crashes in 2009.

          What caused the economic turmoil?  Plundering and pillaging by Wall Street.  Now, that's also a truism.  If you like, I can show prove of that also.

          Truly, I don't know why you keep coming back for more; you must be a masochist.

          •  Thanks for the link, Ray. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Aquarius40, jiffypop

            Now, it turns out that not every "excess" suicide is due to the economic downturn. So, again, you're playing loose with the facts.

            That doesn't make those deaths any less tragic, of course, but it does shoot down your claim of "thousands and thousands," just as I suspected:

            Austery/Suicide

            Many people in this diary much more knowledgeable than you about what's occurring in Brazil have told you, as kindly as they can, that your diary is rubbish.

            Do you plan on admitting you were wrong any time soon, or do you just plan to plow ahead, even though facts say otherwise?

            How about I believe in the unlucky ones?

            by BenderRodriguez on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 10:08:28 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  Indeed, this is rising expectations (9+ / 0-)

      There was a Brazilian on NPR this morning explaining that the protests are the result of Lula's party (the party against whom these people are protesting) having raised millions of people out of poverty and having created a middle class. Now this middle class is demanding better, more accountable government. Which is a good thing, and not a revolutionary uprising.

      Hence the Bennetton look.

      •  historically, revolutions do NOT happen in times (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Fe Bongolan, happymisanthropy

        of desperate widespread poverty and repression.

        They happen in times when things are actually improving--but not fast enough.

        (But I should be careful to point out that what we see in Brazil is NOT a revolution against a plutocratic oligarchy---it is a protest against a social democratic government to do more, faster, in its fight AGAINST the plutocrats. That is rather a large difference.)

        •  Indeed. (0+ / 0-)

          The Soviet Union didn't fall during the Afghan war, it fell when the war was over and people started demanding better.

          Our snoops are not legally authorized to snoop without legal authorization. Of course, if they were legally authorized to snoop without legal authorization, that would constitute legal authorization. Do you feel better yet?

          by happymisanthropy on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 11:52:09 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  the collapse of teh USSR is actually a good (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            marsanges

            illustration of what I talk about in comments below--the need for revolutions to have an alternative power structure already in place.  When the Soviet bloc collapsed, it was almost a surprise to everyone. There was no organized rebellion and no rebel power structure---just a spontaneous crowd of people and boom, everything fell.

            That meant, alas, that there was a power vacuum. And as with any power vacuum, it was filled by the groups who were the best-organized.  That happened to be two sets of people who virtually melded into one----(1) former Communist Party officials and (2) organized crime.

            And that is why, despite the mass popular uprising that collapsed the Soviet Union, Russia today is a kleptocratic Mafia state run by a former KGB officer, not a democracy.

            •  another example (0+ / 0-)

              Morsi, Brotherhood, Egypt. Just now. Ennahda, Tunisia. Same story. (They are different beneficiaries of course; but they werent who made the revolution).

              •  yes indeed (0+ / 0-)

                The whole aim of a revolution is to transfer power from one group of people to another.  And that can't be done if there's nothing to transfer power TO. It just produces a power vacuum, in which the best-organized, win--whoever they are.

                Many leftists get all nervous when we talk about "power", but the brutal reality is that power is what it's all about. "Power" is the ability to do the things you want to do, and if you have no power, you do . .  well . . . nothing.  (shrug). Saul Alinsky has a very good discussion of that in his classic "Rules for Radicals" (a book that every organizer should be forced to read, twice.)

  •  Brazilian govt is not run by super-nationalists (7+ / 0-)

    It is run, literally, by former communist guerrillas, indigenous activists, and union organizers.  Over the past decade, Brazil has been THE leader in the fight against the international finance system, particularly the IMF's austerity programs.

    But like all governments, even leftist ones, it always needs a kick in the ass.  And is now getting one.

    •  PT/Lula's sharp turn right (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Ray Pensador, protectspice

      happened a long time ago.  He thought he was being "pragmatic" and "moderate".  What really happened was the whole PT got recouped by global capital.  The reality is that today, Brazil is far to the right of Paraguay, a fact that those who know the political history of the region can find alternately shocking and hilarious.  Not hilarious for the Brazilian working people.  The cooption of PT has left them with nothing else but struggle in the streets.

      "You may very well think so, I could not possibly comment." ~ Francis Urquhart, pragmatic political philosopher

      by ActivistGuy on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 08:39:29 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I'm not sure it was a sharp turn right (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Quicklund

        I don't think Lula has changed his ideals or goals at all. But the 2008 economic collapse hit Brazil hard, and the brutal reality was that his government could no longer function without access to IMF money, and that came at a cost. He decided to pay that cost. People can of course argue whether the cost was worth it, or whether Brazil would have been better off trying to go it alone.

        I draw a larger lesson from all of it, though.  The economy in all its aspects--financial and corporate--is global. No part of it can live separately from the rest--Brazil tried that and failed.  That means if we want to overthrow the power of the global finance network, as Lula does, then we must collapse it all at once, globally, everywhere simultaneously.  Trying to do it one nation at a time, is doomed to failure.

  •  There are plenty of reasons to protest (0+ / 0-)

    under practically any regime anywhere in the world these days, in part because of the overwhelming predominance of neo-liberal economics and the damage it does to individuals and societies.

    I don't know enough about what's going on in Brazil to say much about the current uprising, but based on what's happened elsewhere, I'm leery of declarations about "global revolutions against supra national elites," because, in too many cases, the uprisings actually result in reinforcing the power of neo-liberalism, expanding economic inequality, and further limiting the power of the People.

    It's been the fly in the ointment of revolt and revolution for quite a while now, going back to the Color Revolutions that were once so popular in taking down the rotting Soviet Empire.

    They all led to the triumph and expansion of neo-liberalism and the "supra-national elites" who are its primary beneficiaries.

    The People of Brazil have many longstanding complaints about cronyism and corruption and police violence and so on, and there's no reason they shouldn't be in the streets in protest. The public expenses associated with the World Cup and Olympics are scandalous -- even if you don't factor in all the corruption and fascism that permeate them.

    There are ample reasons to rise up; on the other hand, spontaneous uprisings have too often been taken over and used by powerful forces for their own ends.

    Blogging as Ché Pasa since 2007.

    by felix19 on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 07:43:59 AM PDT

  •  America is lazy and indifferent (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Ray Pensador

    about EVERYTHING. We are officially sheep.

    I didn't abandon the fight, I abandoned the Party that abandoned the fight...

    by Jazzenterprises on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 07:49:02 AM PDT

    •  Not at all (4+ / 0-)

      Just spied upon, heavily manipulated by our own government and media, and genuinely frightened of our own law enforcement/domestic military.   We saw what happened during the Occupy movement.

      US protestors know there's a large, federally controlled, taxpayer funded  system that is ready and willing to work with local law enforcement and governments to bring as much force as possible to bear against protestors.

      Fusion centers.

      "If you can't take their money, eat their food, drink their booze and then vote against them, you have no business being in DC."

      by Betty Pinson on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 08:55:55 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Home of the Brave (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Ray Pensador

        n/t

        I didn't abandon the fight, I abandoned the Party that abandoned the fight...

        by Jazzenterprises on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 09:52:54 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Fine, be sarcastic. But it's not only fear (0+ / 0-)

          that Americans are fighting. It's also the very real fact that the government doesn't give a shit when we protest, the media doesn't report it, and it usually dies on the vine as if it hadn't happened. That combined with the bad personal repercussions are enough to keep a lot of people out of the street.

          That said, I do refer you to Occupy, many of whose protesters looked pretty damned "brave" to me.

          Ou sont les neigedens d'antan?

          by SouthernLiberalinMD on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 03:00:26 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Brazil (3+ / 0-)

    is also a profound statement and example of the failure of "pragmatic moderation" even when it's genuine, and not just a vehicle to cash in at the trough.  The poor and the excluded of Brazil had previously joined together behind the originally very leftist PT party, and its charismatic leader Lula daSilva.  But in his efforts to make Brazil and the PT government "acceptable" to global neoliberalism, Lula succeeded in completely abandoning the very reasons for the rise of the PT, its representation of the interests of Brazil's neglected and oppressed majorities.  What we see in Brazil today is the inevitable end reached by "pragmatic" power centrism when its efforts to serve as the window dressing for the interests of globalized neoliberal capital inevitably become clear.

    "You may very well think so, I could not possibly comment." ~ Francis Urquhart, pragmatic political philosopher

    by ActivistGuy on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 08:25:36 AM PDT

    •  you make very good points. but to be fair, (0+ / 0-)

      in a global economy, NO country can go it alone. The days when the USSR or China could shut itself off from the international economy and build its own economy through its own internal resources, are over. Brazil needs access to the international economic system (particularly after it was devestated by the 2008 economic collapse, which many AMericans do not seem to realize was GLOBAL in scope, not just here), and under those circumstances Brazil was forced to do things to gain that access. Those choices led to a lack of progress for the poor (of which Brazil still has a lot), and, understandably, led to resentment and disillusionment. We are seeing the results.

      There are very important and illustrative lessons in that for any revolutionary leftist. (For example, if we want to topple the global corporate finance system, we must topple it GLOBALLY--trying to do it piecemeal simply will not work).

      Brazil's heart is in the right place, but it simply cannot go it alone.  No nation can.

  •  Start talking politics here (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Ray Pensador
    I repeatedly heard the word "tired"
    That's all you hear when you talk politics here.  

    I think we're a bit behind when it comes to the coming revolution because many felt they had dodged that bullet by electing Obama.  

    We haven't reached the true disgust level.  Obama is still getting a pass by many.  However, that support is dropping.  

    People always say a revolution couldn't happen here.  Well, this country was founded revolution.  We earned our democracy through blood.  Now, it's being taken away from us.  

    As Jefferson said:  "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    It's coming.

    >>>Hey, NSA person, please feel free to correct any spelling and punctuation errors.  Thanks.<<<

    •  why are the libertarians so in love with their (4+ / 0-)

      silly revolution porn fantasies?

      They can't even get elected dogcatcher, and they think people are gonna follow them in the glorious revolution?

      Too funny.

      Rushing into the streets (with or without guns) is the FINAL step in a successful revolution, not the first.  The FIRST steps are to organize, organize more, and organize yet again, until you have built up an alternative power structure outside the current system that is strong enough to both contest power with the establishment and run society after the establishment falls.  All of that, of course, is the very same unglamorous boring drudge work that the "rush into the streets !!!!" crowd doesn't want to get their hands dirty with.

      "Revolutionaries" in the US, alas, can't organize their way out of a wet paper bag. All they do is sit around and debate ideology to death.  That's why everyone ignores them.

      They'd be more useful if they got off their ass and started organizing. Or else sat down and shut the fuck up.

      •  Stop being a dick. (0+ / 0-)

        Or maybe you can't help yourself.  

        They'd be more useful if they got off their ass and started organizing. Or else sat down and shut the fuck up.
        Here's how truly stupid you are:  You have no idea what most here do in their private lives.  For all you fucking know, we could be organizers.  
        All they do is sit around and debate ideology to death.
        You carry your stupidity to new levels when you state your drivel  regarding "debate ideology" on a political blog dedicated to debating ideology and ideas.  

        Seriously, take your own advice:  Shut the fuck up.

        Or better yet, keep talking.  These are hard times.  We need the comic relief.  

        •  too funny (0+ / 0-)

          Many words.  Nothing else.

          •  Actually, she has one good point (0+ / 0-)

            you assume that people on here aren't organizing their fingers to the bone. You have no clue on that, one way or another.

            I can tell you that there have been many times I've been accused of not doing enough for the Democratic party, for instance. People read my criticisms of the party and its leaders and assume I just sit in front of a screen and never do a lick of work. In fact, I busted my ass, mostly for no pay, from 2000-2010, but people assumed the opposite because of my views.

            With very few exceptions, we don't know what other Kossacks are doing on the ground. It's one of the palpable lacks of this site, which is clearly designed more for conversation than for organizing actions.

            Ou sont les neigedens d'antan?

            by SouthernLiberalinMD on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 03:08:59 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  see, the funniest part is that I think it will not (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          BroadwayBaby1, marsanges

          only take a revolution (a GLOBAL revolution) to beat the 1%, but it will ultimately take guns.

          But I also realize that revolution doesn't come from people rushing into the streets.  It comes from long boring drudge-ass organizing work---the kind that the young whippersnappers don't want to do.  They want their revolution like they want their pizzas--quick, cheap, and made on demand.

          That's why nobody listens to them.  (shrug)

          •  Well why didn't you say that in the first place (0+ / 0-)

            I actually agree with you.  

            However, I do think people can multitask by blogging and planning the revolution.  

            •  I've been saying it here for 7 years now (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              BroadwayBaby1, marsanges

              I certainly don't make any secret of it.

              Alas, in my 30-odd years in the movement, I have come to the conclusion that whenever I hear anyone talking constantly about picking up guns and running into the streets, it's always one of three things:

              1. some young kid who doesn't know how to do political organizing

              2. some testosterone-poisoned kid who just wants to show everyone his dick is bigger than everyone else's

              or

              3. a cop

              Serious revolutionaries are organizers.  Unserious ones, aren't.

      •  And helpfully, the NSA is there to track us (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Ray Pensador, marsanges

        infiltrate us, and undermine our organizing at every step.

        Having done some of that sort of organizing--not enough, because I wasted a lot of my time working on elections--I actually agree with some of what you say, but if what you want is effective organizing here, comments like this do nothing to achieve that end.  Quite the opposite.

        And I fail to see why "not being able to get elected dogcatcher" has anything to do with not being able to organize an effective revolution.  The first has to do with having a lot of money and media connections.  The second--well, I guess if you had a lot of money and media connections it might make it easier to stage a revolution, but most revolutionaries don't have that kind of access to wealth and established power. Which is why they're revolutionaries.  Just seems like a non sequitor.

        Ou sont les neigedens d'antan?

        by SouthernLiberalinMD on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 03:05:28 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Every protest is not a world revolution (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ammasdarling, Quicklund

    People have been protesting their rulers since the day someone had the bright idea of lording it over everyone else.

    The modern practice of reading every protest as a precursor to imminent global revolution dates from Karl Marx.

    Marx had great insight on how class operated in modern society.

    Marx was also godawful as a predictor of the political future.  It turns out the global proletariat might not only hunger for absolute liberty.  They might also hunger for flat-screen TVs.  And health care.  And donuts.  Mmmmmmmm donuts.

    Marx's limitations should make us wary of over-reading protests as they unfold.

    We ought to applaud attempts by people to stand up to power.  

    But we also ought to acknowledge massive differences between societies and not allow ourselves to assert an overall global narrative of impending world revolution that is still yet only a dream.

  •  There is no "global uprising." (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    SLKRR, Quicklund, Aquarius40, emelyn

    I applaud the actions in Turkey and Brazil.  It will have no impact on the USA or Europe or most other countries.  Where there is class consciousness, it rarely transcends national boundaries and I have never seen it that an uprising in one area has any impact on other countries that are not nearby.  

    The uprising in Turkey could have an impact on other Middle Eastern countries and actions in Brazil could possibly impact the rest of Latin America.  Otherwise, forget it.

  •  Pepper Spraying Photos (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    GreenMother

    remind me of what happened to OWS.  

    Police Brutality... and what did our "Leaders" aka Corporate Shills say about that here?  (crickets)

    "Love One Another" ~ George Harrison

    by Damnit Janet on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 10:58:10 AM PDT

  •  Revolution? This is what democracy looks like (4+ / 0-)
    More than 40 people were arrested in the southern city of Porto Alegre after a small group peeled away from the main march of about 10,000 demonstrators and set alight bins and shops.

    They were booed by those participating in the main march, who called for a peaceful protest.

    •  That is absurd. Once people take to the streets (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ZhenRen

      in large numbers, once a government fails to function, this sort of thing (and much, much more) happens.  It's normal.

      When people are forced to rise up in protest, things can be a little untidy.

      •  you have failed to learn the lessons of Egypt (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Aquarius40, ZhenRen, emelyn

        Rushing into the streets is simply not enough.  Even IF you succeed in toppling the government (as they did in Egypt), all you have then is an unorganized power vacuum, into which will inevitably step those groups who are the best organized (and in Egypt that was the military and the Islamicists).

        You cannot take power unless you already have an apparatus for exercising power, and that takes years or even decades of boring drudge work to do. That is why rushing into the streets is the FINAL step, not the first.  First, you must build an alternative power structure that can take over when you win.  If you don't, you lose to those who DO.  As in Egypt.

      •  Well let's see: (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Aquarius40, HudsonValleyMark

        (1) People in democracies have "taken to the streets" for centuries without triggering revolutions. these are called "protests".

        (2) There is no evidence at all to back your claim the Brazilian gov't fails to function.

        (3) You have been given conflicting information which shows Brazilian gov't is indeed functional.

        (4) Untidy  describes my house, not a nation in revolution.

    •  That might be the "anarchist movement". (0+ / 0-)

      They did the same think to OWS.  Join OWS folks, then peel off and engage in property destruction, making OWS look bad.

  •  photo of the guy with the Fawkes mask reminds me (0+ / 0-)

    that despite the fact that most of the world hates the US's politics and military arrogance, the US is still the cultural light that the entire world looks to.  In Costa Rica, England, Norway and South Africa, everywhere I looked I saw american pop culture--I even had lunch in an American-themed cafe (cowboys and rap stars--it was funny to see) in a little town near Centurion that had probably never had an American tourist before (my South African friend grew up there and took me to visit his old farm).

    (And yes, I do see the irony in a mask from a British movie being turned into the symbol of Occupy--an American cultural icon.)

  •  Those pictures... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Ray Pensador

    Looking every bit like Occupy Brazil...wonderful to see.

  •  "I'm sentimental, if you know what I mean.. I... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Ray Pensador

    love the country but I can't stand the scene...."

    Democracy is coming to the U.S.A......

    http://www.youtube.com/...

    “The comfort of the rich depends upon an abundant supply of the poor.” - Voltaire.

    by LamontCranston on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 01:57:42 PM PDT

  •  As a native Brazilian, it's about time. (3+ / 0-)

    If we think our elites are bad and corrupt, they have nothing on Brazil - i'm headed there in 2 weeks and if this is still happening i fully intend on joining in Belo Horizonte.

  •  From _The Dispossessed_ (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Ray Pensador, Cassiodorus
    “No. It is not wonderful. It is an ugly world. Not like this one. Anarres is all dust and dry hills. All meager, all dry. And the people aren’t beautiful. They have big hands and feet, like me and the waiter there. But not big bellies. They get very dirty, and take baths together, nobody here does that. The towns are very small and dull, they are dreary. No palaces. Life is dull, and hard work. You can’t always have what you want, or even what you need, because there isn’t enough. You Urrasti have enough. Enough air, enough rain, grass, oceans, food, music, buildings, factories machines, books, clothes, history. You are rich, you own. We are poor, we lack. You have, we do not have. Everything is beautiful here. Only not the faces. On Anarres nothing is beautiful, nothing but the faces. The other faces, the men and women. We have nothing but that, nothing but each other. Here you see the jewels, there you see the eyes. And in the eyes you see the splendor, the splendor of the human spirit. Because our men and women are free—possessing nothing, they are free. And you the possessors are possessed. You are all in jail. Each alone, solitary, with a heap of what he owns. You live in prison, die in prison. It is all I can see in your eyes—the wall, the wall!” 228-229

    Ou sont les neigedens d'antan?

    by SouthernLiberalinMD on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 02:25:12 PM PDT

  •  I support this in America, but... (0+ / 0-)

    ... I'm watching American Idol tonight, and I have a few cream puffs with my name on them. Let me check my schedule for alternative possibilities.

    "The stream of commuters heading into the city, the caravan of tractor-trailers pulling out of the rest stop into the dawn’s early light, speak a deep-throated Yes to the sum total of what’s going on in our collective life." (Garret Keizer)

    by Couch Activist on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 04:39:29 PM PDT

  •  Neymar: “Quiero un Brasil más justo..." (0+ / 0-)

    that is impressive. if they got him to go public in such a way, that has an effect.

    Neymar: “Quiero un Brasil más justo, seguro y honesto”
    Link:
    Neymar, fichado este verano por el Barcelona y el jugador más desequilibrante de su selección, ... se ha expresado con claridad en las redes sociales. ...

    "Siempre tuve fe en que no sería necesario que llegáramos al punto de tirarnos a la calle para exigir mejores condiciones de transporte, sanidad, educación y seguridad, sobre todo [porque] es una obligación del gobierno... "

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