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I am assuming that at least some of us are here to express, exchange and discuss ideas, information and proposals of various sorts. It is for this reason that attempts to hijack a diary used to be HR worthy. I'd like to think that they still are and would appreciate it if some admin would correct m e on this if I am wrong.

So what's my point?

I(t has always annoyed me greatly when people who have nothing factual, intelligent, substantive or rational to say about the topic or subject matter of a diary misrepresent it and begin to discuss and demand that the diarist discuss that misrepresentation.  It has hitherto slid right by me that this is a form of a diary hijack and is, accordingly, HR worthy. I call it a Misrepresentation Hijack". It works like this.

Diarist asserts that some x

may be
y. One or more trolls who have neither facts nor rational arguments to counter the assertion, but who nonetheless wish to suppress that thesis and or fact and any discussions thereof will repeatedly demand that the diarist prove his or her assertion that all x are y and further lambaste the diarist for being a bigot and liar for so asserting. When called on this they will answer with come complete non sequitur.

Like any other hijack, this is a non sequitur and has nothing to do with the diary because the diarist said no such thing. I propose that all such misrepresentational cvhallenges be immediately HRd as the thread/diary hijacks that they are. I guess it could be argued that they should only be HRd on the second instance by the same hijacker, but that simply gives more impetus to the hijack. This is especially true when a whole horde of trollsshows up parroting the hijack.

Poll

How should we handle misrepresentation hijacks?

38%5 votes
38%5 votes
23%3 votes

| 13 votes | Vote | Results

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (13+ / 0-)

    That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

    by enhydra lutris on Sun Jul 14, 2013 at 05:51:59 PM PDT

  •  i am thus far (4+ / 0-)

    suppressing the urge to hijack this thread...

    I am so mature I could plotz

  •  I couldn't answer poll because I don't like hring (6+ / 0-)

    and I don't like hijacks, but I recced and here are some thoughts.

    I usually write on non controversial subjects. Travel or hiking in the woods, that kind of thing.

    Once in awhile I write on things that I'm sure some are going to get very upset about, like hunting. DK is primarily urban liberals, hunting is next best to mass murder for some. I understand and try to brace myself.  I used to answer all comments and get angry when someone would say untrue things all up and down the comments, call me a right winger and stuff. Now I've learned to try to respond if they are obvious. Thank them for commenting, rec their comment, and move on. The diary you write stands by itself. And believe me I've had some very famous Kossacks jump in on the tip jar just so everyone can see how wrong they think what I'm saying is. The heck with em I figure. Let them write their own doggone diaries if they're so bright.

    Hijacks are just a fact of life. Sometimes I'm sure I do it too. I start in commenting on a comment I think is misguided and then the next one and so on and before you know it I've disagreed with five comments in a row. Time to get gone when that happens.

    Thick skin needed.

    “Conservation… is a positive exercise of skill and insight, not merely a negative exercise of abstinence and caution…” Aldo Leopold

    by ban nock on Sun Jul 14, 2013 at 06:53:00 PM PDT

    •  I don't like to HR either, and very rarely do, (4+ / 0-)

      but it seems to me that we have to devise a way to stop all of the off topic attacks that prevent us from actually having discussions regarding the content of people's diaries.

      That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

      by enhydra lutris on Sun Jul 14, 2013 at 06:57:30 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  There's a difference between (6+ / 0-)

        "misguided" and "deliberate" when it comes to something as egregious as what the diary is making note of. I agree it's a problem. There's a lot of "deliberate" lately, by roughly the same handful of posters. That's a key point, keep it in mind. No names are necessary, they know who they are and so does anyone else who is paying the least bit of attention.

        I don't remember it being quite as obvious as it has been with the Snowden/Greenwald diaries. And that's given me much pause. After even more reflection--and oodles of wasted time--IMO, we're not going to change the deliberate shit. That's what some people are gonna do, for whatever reasons they have to do it. They know, as well as anyone, that the idea of "policing" them seems one of those nebulous things that there's just not enough damned eyeballs and common sense to keep in check (such as dedicated admins, which most sites don't really have time, manpower or money for). And they take full advantage of it. So we need to come up with other ways to deal with it.

        Trying to overtalk them or "change" their posting habits (or the way their threadjacking spew might be perceived by others) clearly doesn't work either. What does that leave?

        * a new system of "blog policing"
        * ignore the obvious ones trolls and do not engage under any circumstances whatsoever.

        And yes, that means me, too. It's not easy--some of them know exactly what they're doing with words, which makes me even angrier and more prone to call them on their BS--but I got nothin' else. And the biggest reason I got nothin' else is for the simple fact that this isn't "our blog", after all, as we're so often reminded. It belongs to some guy and we're just "guests" here.

        This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

        by lunachickie on Sun Jul 14, 2013 at 07:39:48 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  So do you suggest that we just try to have (5+ / 0-)

          substantive discussions around them, unresponsive in all ways to all of their interruptions? It could work, like a boycott, I guess, if it were a concerted enough effort - maybe everybody should include a last paragraph caveat in their diaries.

          Support Small Business: Shop Kos Katalogue

          s6DA@E:D>[ :E :D E96:C C:89E[ :E :D E96:C 5FEJ[ E@ E9C@H @77 DF49 v@G6C?>6?E[ 2?5 E@ AC@G:56 ?6H vF2C5D 7@C E96:C 7FEFC6 D64FC:EJ]&xC5;$F49 92D 366? E96 A2E:6?E DF776C2?

          That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

          by enhydra lutris on Sun Jul 14, 2013 at 07:50:02 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Yeah, something like that (6+ / 0-)

            God knows, it's not easy, and if I can't take my own advice, I'm sure someone is lurking/reading this and will be sure to call me out ;) IMO, there is value to the idea of "just ignoring it". Where we get tripped up (or at least where I get tripped up) is when we start thinking that we "have to refute that message in case someone else reads it and bases their opinions on incorrect/trolls/lies in the information given. No. We're not going to stop their message, no matter what, they're going to post their disruptive shit. But, if it's not given any chance to propagate, it won't get as far.

            Besides, I can't own what someone else decides to think. That's hard to keep in mind when you feel in a moment of severe passion about something, but it's true.

            I am not sure if others have really been actively trying to do this "ignoring" thing already, but I've noticed lately that some of the usual suspects are SO usual (as in "like clockwork"), they've gotten themselves big fat zeroes (no recs no hides) next to some of their more obvious troll attempts, so such a push may be on already.

            This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

            by lunachickie on Sun Jul 14, 2013 at 08:03:37 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  totally agree, re not troll feeding (5+ / 0-)

              I have noticed that people are getting wiser to the "Snowden trolls" and not always responding to them, but not always. For example see the first set of comments in the recent reclisted bobswern diary. It's just an info-free back and forth over to the far right of the screen. Come on folks, when the same person always jumps into diary after diary by users or with views they disagree with and posts the same attack comments, despite being repeatedly refuted, then THEY ARE BEING TROLLS and you should just ignore them.

              And this should apply to anyone, regardless of what issue or where they stand on it, who is more interested in attacking, belittling and shutting down discussion.

              History repeats itself, first as tragedy, second as farce - Karl Marx

              by quill on Sun Jul 14, 2013 at 09:05:57 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  I've seen that happen on science type posts (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            enhydra lutris

            the ignoring of non substantive spewing.

            Thinking about it I realize I normally don't comment on or even read diaries such as Snowden, etc. so I'm not familiar with who is who for trollishness.

            “Conservation… is a positive exercise of skill and insight, not merely a negative exercise of abstinence and caution…” Aldo Leopold

            by ban nock on Mon Jul 15, 2013 at 05:40:31 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Take a good long look (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              enhydra lutris, ban nock

              at the first couple threads of some of those diaries. Don't worry about "the hiddens", because a lot of the disruptive shit ends up HR'd AND uprated, so there's no way to see it other than to look in the diaries.

              You will see much commonality among posters. You might even see the same comments, over and over again. It's educational...

              This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

              by lunachickie on Mon Jul 15, 2013 at 09:11:39 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

  •  what to do, what to do... (5+ / 0-)

    There's too many intentionally bad acting TU kogs eager to bait, bark, barricade, give out their own ticky tacky HRs, yes, absolutely misstate sincere posters contributions, and be obstructive as possible; and they do team up.
    What to do, don't know.
    Try to navigate for the betterment of all, I guess. And sometimes walk away counting to 10.

    Don Benedetto was murdered.-IgnazioSilone(BreadAndWine)

    by renzo capetti on Sun Jul 14, 2013 at 06:58:37 PM PDT

  •  First Rule (4+ / 0-)

    of stopping trollish behavior:


    DON’T FEED THE TROLLS!


    The 18 Types Of Internet Trolls
    smosh.com

    •  If it can be broken down into groups (3+ / 0-)

      then there's a science behind it. And the wills of some people just are no match for the scientific.

      In other words, that's easier said than done. Your linked list is pretty funny, but it's missing at least one or two political-troll types. I see at least one--a suit-and-loafers kind of guy. Let's just think of him as--a passionate denizen of K Street. There's surely a caricature of the stereotype of that guy, somewhere out here on the Intertubez...

      This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

      by lunachickie on Sun Jul 14, 2013 at 07:51:47 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I guess we'll get to see how that works. (0+ / 0-)

      Support Small Business: Shop Kos Katalogue

      E@ 67764E E96:C $276EJ 2?5 w2AA:?6DD] !CF56?46[ :?5665[ H:= 5:4E2E6 E92E v@G6C?>6?ED =@?8 6DE23:D965 D9@F=5 ?@E 36 492?865 7@C :89E 2?5 EC2?D:6?E 42FD6Dj 2?5 244@C5:?8=J 2= 6IA6C:6?46 92E9 D96H?[ E92E >2?<:?5 2C6 >@C6

      That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

      by enhydra lutris on Sun Jul 14, 2013 at 09:11:01 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Why do you not have the (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    FG

    nerve to say what you mean.  You posted a number of silly comments in a diary that contained the following:

    For weeks, I have watched a cadre of right wing advocates (and make no mistake, they are right wing and may even be paid -- See GOP is paying trolls to "blog attack" -- enter every diary which supports Edward Snowden and Glenn Greenwald in any way and post a first comment after which they do everything they can to derail any meaningful discussion about the HUGE issues we are facing as a nation and as citizens of this planet.  
    When that diarist was asked who he was saying was paid to post here and what proof he had-- You jumped on the "may even be paid" to excuse this crazy.  May, may, may-- like that really matters.

    So you post this "diary" to support your opinion, or what may be your opinion.  Whatever... should have saved it for Thursday.

    Hey! glad to see you. Hope you are doing well.

    by deedogg on Sun Jul 14, 2013 at 08:19:38 PM PDT

  •  It's impossible to say anything without knowing (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    enhydra lutris

    what exactly you're talking about.

  •  In the NSA diaries (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    enhydra lutris

    I just scroll. The usual suspects are like broken records so I don't even read their stuff anymore. They flood the right column and I just scroll.

    In other diaries I don't read their stuff either. They are written off completely.

    So their desired effect may be deleterious to the site overall.

    Ignore if possible. I know it's hard.

  •  May be (0+ / 0-)

    you're right, and  may be you're wrong.

    In fact, I'm pretty sure you're wrong. No, I'm positive you're wrong.  

    Oops. Hijack Alert! I'm HR bait now!

  •  Bigots? (0+ / 0-)
    One or more trolls who have neither facts nor rational arguments to counter the assertion, but who nonetheless wish to suppress that thesis and or fact and any discussions thereof will repeatedly demand that the diarist prove his or her assertion that all x are y and further lambaste the diarist for being a bigot and liar for so asserting
    LOL I get the feeling you're thinking of something a LOT more specific than "x may be y."

    But none the less, I shall respond.

    Any comment in a diary that is in response to something that's in the diary is not a hijack.  If you come to the table with: "It's possible that spoo may be fleem," and someone posts: "Prove it.  Where's your evidence that spoo is fleem?  It seems like you just hate fleem or you wouldn't be saying that..." then all they're doing is engaging in the same sort of baseless speculation that the diarist is.

    Just because the diarist doesn't want to have to deal with it doesn't make a non-sequitor.  If the diarist has claims they don't want to defend, they shouldn't be making them--not even hypothetically.

    Too Folk For You. - Schmidting in the Punch Bowl - verb - Committing an unexpected and underhanded political act intended to "spoil the party."

    by TooFolkGR on Mon Jul 15, 2013 at 07:32:21 AM PDT

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