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Once again this evening I read a comment regarding Moderates not being welcome or not being able to freely communicate at DKos. I've seen this time and time again and most of it seems to come from self-professed moderates in disagreement on one issue or another.

What these individuals are professing is simply false and the allegation is, in my opinion, an intellectually cheap maneuver with a darker purpose.

*By the way, the photo is of our dog. She couldn't find her tennis ball and wanted to play catch so she grabbed an apple instead. I couldn't find a relevant photo to the story but she's British, so she's probably a liberal and that will have to do.

I'm an Independent Moderate, at least I was when I joined the site several years ago. One would hope that I have evolved (and will continue to evolve) politically as I stay open to new ideas and enter into new discussions...but I still self-identify as a Moderate and I make no secret of that fact.

Other than the random (and very rare) individual I have never had a problem participating in discussions, exchanging ideas, exploring new fields or disagreeing with individuals on the basis of where I fall in the political spectrum. I've had numerous diaries on the Rec list and will probably see a few more in the future.

It just isn't an issue.

Those "moderates" who attempt to smear the site with cries of bias or prejudice are, in my mind, doing so because its much easier to dismiss a group as unreasonable and close-minded than it is to truly engage in discourse and actually listen to what individuals are communicating.

DKos isn't here to be "saved" by one individual or group's opinion, it is meant to be a vehicle for learning, enlightenment and action. That includes the trading of ideas, not just talking at people, but talking with them. Remaining open to solutions that you may not have considered, and offering your take on certain issues. Disagreement can and will happen but it can be done respectfully.

I've managed to participate for several years, have learned much in the process, gained insight into issues that weren't even on my radar when I first opened the orange page and hopefully, until kos shows me the door, I will continue to benefit from the site.

....and I'm a moderate, go figure.

Comment: Thank you for the rec list and for your comments, both supportive, not so supportive, and those interesting thoughts on what the word "moderate" even means in this political environment.

"Little D" (she is named after the river Derwent) says "Thank you" for the compliments and she will be happy to be used shamelessly for political purposes in the future for the proper treat.

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  •  Tip Jar (158+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    RocketJSquirrel, Garrett, Youffraita, ChicDemago, Valar Morghulis, Purple Priestess, DeadHead, Mortifyd, john07801, serendipityisabitch, EJP in Maine, Dumbo, expatjourno, Bob Love, grover, CenPhx, kharma, JaxDem, BoiseBlue, flowerfarmer, PhilJD, Pinto Pony, Matt Z, kurious, Lovo, xxdr zombiexx, Noodles, k9disc, LaFeminista, kmfmstar, Eddie L, Bluesee, GwenM, Blue Wind, cassandraX, aaraujo, P Carey, bkamr, CroneWit, leftykook, Jim Riggs, Nulwee, dance you monster, FrY10cK, Buckeye Nut Schell, Bridge Master, Egalitare, Yo Bubba, Ian Reifowitz, coquiero, DSC on the Plateau, sidnora, WisePiper, IL clb, ballerina X, anodnhajo, eru, freakofsociety, Darwinian Detrius, native, brainwave, cv lurking gf, Texknight, Its any one guess, Moody Loner, Cedwyn, schumann, lineatus, tommymet, bobswern, rudewarrior, ladybug53, MKinTN, Pithy Cherub, litigatormom, Leftcandid, petesmom, Jazzenterprises, Siri, Nada Lemming, No Exit, Debby, Inflatable Yak, Got a Grip, CharlesII, Joieau, puakev, boadicea, dotsright, blueoasis, blackjackal, BadKitties, chrississippi, Inventor, zerelda, Wildthumb, koNko, jwinIL14, quill, Medium Head Boy, duhban, left rev, JosephK74, poligirl, poopdogcomedy, dkmich, Colorado is the Shiznit, JWC, Pager, imfunnytoo, susan in sc, bleeding blue, AaronInSanDiego, scott5js, Quilldriver, JVolvo, Drocedus, scamperdo, denig, Lost and Found, TooFolkGR, Carnivorous Plantling, FarWestGirl, highacidity, psnyder, Statusquomustgo, basket, shenderson, greengemini, murrayewv, Lorikeet, burlydee, hester, TracieLynn, IndieGuy, guyeda, antooo, pixxer, gooderservice, basquebob, Jarrayy, BachFan, kerflooey, susans, peachcreek, shaharazade, emal, efrenzy, hopeful, leftywright, Ryvr, Punditus Maximus, slowbutsure, Meteor Blades, Batya the Toon, catfishbob, Dodgerdog1, newinfluence

    Wonders are many, but none so wonderful as man.

    by Morgan Sandlin on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 12:59:55 AM PDT

  •  So in other words, they don't share your views on (8+ / 13-)

    NSA/Snowden so they are agents of silencing dissent. I mean let's cut through the crap since the 'moderate' question relates to a specific topic(s) at hand, not some general overall feeling.

    And you don't actually provide specifics of any kind so I'm guessing this is just going to be the typical preaching to the converted thrice daily rallying cry.

    If I knew it was going to be that kind of party, I'd have stuck my ---- in the mashed potatoes! - Paul's Boutique

    by DoctorWho on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 01:11:01 AM PDT

  •  I appreciate your thoughts, Morgan. (18+ / 0-)

    And I love your dog. (My beagle picks plums off my tree so she has a brand new "ball" to taunt the others with, so they'll chase her around the yard. One plum is good for about 20 minutes of zooming and one beagle-muzzle stained plum purple)

    But my feeling, just between us two, is that you may be in for a rough ride.

    There have been too TOO many meta diaries for one day (well, I guess that we're almost two hours into Monday, aren't we?). I think you're walking straight into a wall of rusty chainsaws.

    In your shoes, I might think about trying this again later.

    If not, I admire your courage and wish you safe tidings.

    © grover


    So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

    by grover on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 01:53:23 AM PDT

    •  Have there been? To be honest I've (10+ / 0-)

      been reading diaries a bit here and there today as I'm doing chores so there could be a lot happening that I'm not that aware of.

      I don't think this one will be that exciting and I think I'll be okay. I'm alright with individuals not agreeing with me...that happens.

      Though grover, I must tell you that your line "...just between the two of us" in a diary comment made me smile :)

      Wonders are many, but none so wonderful as man.

      by Morgan Sandlin on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 01:58:20 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Ok. If you insist. (8+ / 0-)

        I'll just leave this Kevlar vest, asbestos suit, and shockproof helmet on this table if you need them.

        And there is a canine vest, suit,  and helmet too. Nothing but the best for your stalwart companion.

        © grover


        So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

        by grover on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 02:02:54 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  And a pair of Doggles.... (6+ / 0-)

          © grover


          So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

          by grover on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 02:04:01 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Doggles...goodness, I didn't even know they (8+ / 0-)

            existed.

            What the world is going on that writing a diary about a moderate enjoying participating here could cause such apprehension?

            A shame we lost the thread regarding health care. Definitely something that this site has helped me to a greater understanding on.

            Wonders are many, but none so wonderful as man.

            by Morgan Sandlin on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 02:06:51 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  There's always someone, it seems, who (9+ / 0-)

              wants to threadjack a conversation among friends.

              In your case, I suspect the threadjacker-wannabe had a bit too much Jack Daniels. Just a hunch.

              Some years ago, when I was unemployed and hanging out in the pootie diaries to cheer myself up, there was a guy (aren't they always?) who would try to hijack the diaries.

              He got BoJo'd out of there fairly quickly, but not quickly enough: in the meantime, he made a lovely community diary that many of us loved into a donut-throwing stressful place to be.

              Irony takes a worse beating from Republicans than Wile E. Coyote does from Acme. --Tara the Antisocial Social Worker

              by Youffraita on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 02:22:47 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I will admit it was pretty poor form to lob the (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                grover, Smoh, denig, highacidity

                Diary bomb and then act as if I knew what in the world he was speaking of....

                ..and we females can definitely share in that activity. One evening some of the "old-timers" had a fabulous "remember when" thread here that linked to some amazing and hilarious behavior.

                It made great reading for those of us who came later...stuff of legends and all that :)

                Wonders are many, but none so wonderful as man.

                by Morgan Sandlin on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 02:35:07 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Do you have a link to that? (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  denig

                  I missed it

                  •  Wish I did MHB...it was great reading... (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    highacidity, MHB

                    I felt rather like the kids sitting around a campfire listening to the parents talk about the olden days...and laughing a lot in the process.

                    The fact that I still remember it is testament to how good it really was.

                    Wonders are many, but none so wonderful as man.

                    by Morgan Sandlin on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 09:08:24 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I've been around here since 2004, (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Catte Nappe, Morgan Sandlin

                      so I guess that makes me one of those "parents." I remember the old 5-point rating scale, the cast of characters that used to be regulars and front-pagers (a few of whom still are), the interesting and sometimes ribald tangents that would emerge from our discussions, and the way one could (usually) express one's opinion freely without getting raked over the coals too badly. There was a pervasive feeling of community here then, like we were part of a resistance and didn't have a hell of a lot to lose that we weren't already losing.

                      But I wax nostalgic. I'll have to try to find that diary if I get the time.

      •  I'm pulling for you (18+ / 0-)

        I will say, though, that you may have missed several top-o'-the-rec-list diaries that are unmistakable attacks on moderates -- if by moderate we mean someone who doesn't believe President Obama is a willing tool of the oligarchs who actually run our country.

        These diaries seemed to crop up in response to Snowden/NSA, and they get piles of recs.  Several had the woe-is-me tone of one who wishes he could live happily with his head in the sand, instead of having to stare, eyes wide open, at the way the powers-that-be have taken over our country.

        Several of these diaries were acting as book reports for some recent publications, which want to argue that things used to be great, but now they suck -- that is, we had a New Deal, then a Great Society, but now it's the 1% ascendant.

        These diaries also engender many hundreds of comments from posters declaring they wish they hadn't voted for Obama and/or they're far too pure to vote for anyone the Democrats might nominate in 2016.  

        It can get pretty hot for a moderate, or even a moderate liberal -- especially at a site founded for and dedicated to electing Democrats.

        A 47% return on investment--that's pretty doggoned good!

        by deminva on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 06:39:29 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I thought defending Social Security was about as (21+ / 0-)

          moderate as you can get.  Middle class.  Middle America.   Mom and apple pie.  

          I think the problem is that the "moderates" are not moderate.  

          I mean simply asking that Social Security not be cut, that the status quo be maintained, is actually quite a conservative position, certainly moderate, and definitely not radical.  

          Likewise, defending the Bill of Rights is also quite conservative, certainly moderate, and definitely not radical.  

        •  deminva speaks the truth (13+ / 0-)

          I've read more than one of those diaries and they ain't pretty.

          As for being moderate and being welcome, you bet. Just because some people are rude and unhappy to even hear your views it doesn't mean that everyone feels that way. Stand your virtual ground and keep speaking.

          By the way, I know that this does go both ways. I don't think it's in balance but it does happen.

          The thing that angers me is that so many have chosen to leave because of teh bad behavior. I do know that some have received PMs further insulting them and it's been painful, but they are just pixels after all.

          If you believe what you believe, stand by it.

          "Humidity built the snowman. Sunshine brought him down" John Prine

          by high uintas on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 07:17:12 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I've read some of those diaries.... (5+ / 0-)

            but, like any site, I believe that you will have those individuals that believe they are "absolutely right" and aren't interested in any other view other than those that cheer their point of view.

            You learn very quickly who is open to discussion and who isn't.

            There are moderates that feel that same way about their point of view and its "absolutely right" approach...and they are just as close-minded.
             

            Wonders are many, but none so wonderful as man.

            by Morgan Sandlin on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 09:00:08 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Like I said (4+ / 0-)

              it does go both ways, but it is unbalanced right now, IMO.

              "Humidity built the snowman. Sunshine brought him down" John Prine

              by high uintas on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 11:09:12 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I guess (0+ / 0-)

                balanced depends on where your standing. It also depends on where one perceives the center to be. Fair and balanced is in the eyes of the beholder. Same with radical, or far right or far left, it varies depending on the perspective. One of my son's a self identifying 'conservative' said the other day, when we both agreed on medicare for all 'I'm pretty liberal for a conservative'. We both laughed at this.

                Our political scale has been skewed to the point where if people care about liberty and civil rights or they often get called here a libertarian. Ask me we ought to not depend on the politico's manipulation of direction and stop defining any deviance from the party's line as not moderate. They have stood the spectrum on it's head and recast even the most basic democratic values, principles and self evident truths as subject to the reactionary politics of them vs us.            

            •  Not everyon has a thick skin. (4+ / 0-)

              We're not all homogeneous that way.

              Many people don't want to be involved in the fights, and so are afraid to speak their minds.

              If they express a moderate view on an issue, too often they're going to be attacked.  They're going to have their liberal/progressive bona fides questioned.  Just look at the comments going on in this diary alone if you want to see what I'm talking about (ironic consider the subject matter of the diary).

              To say that all they have to do is engage in careful conversation in expressing their views is silly when we've all seen the flame wars that have broken out.

              So rather than taking the chance that having the simplest utterance flamed (and believe me, you never know what you've posted that's going to be roasted), they don't say anything at all.  They don't engage.  And I don't think they should be criticized for being sensitive to it.  I think it's very understandable.

        •  I have to agree here. (7+ / 0-)

          I have read too many posts that declare that moderates are stupid.

          No, they are not. In many ways, they are more reasonable than the two extremes that seem to want to control (yes, control) debate in the country.

          If you support the President, you are an Obamabot. If you don't support Snowden or think that he went too far, you are not worth anyone's time, and so on.

          There is no nuance for many of these people.

          What's worse? They don't go out and do anything about it. They just sit at their computers and wail.

        •  People disagreeing with (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          6412093, Mindful Nature, TracieLynn

          others dos not entail that they're trying to drive them off dailykos or "attack" them.  This seems to be a problem with many of the moderates here.  They seem to take extreme offense to disagreement and difference, refusing to recognize that people who hold these views do so ardently and based on principles they genuinely hold dear.  Recognizing that would go a long way towards changing the atmosphere here and building party unity.  I fear the well was irreversibly poisoned, however, by highly insulting and patronizing talk about pragmatism, realism, ponies, rainbows, and charges that disagreement over this or that policy of the administration amounts to hating Obama or ODS.  The vast majority of people criticizing Obama voted for him and donated money and merely are struggling to get our elected officials to represent us.

        •  Well (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          AdamSelene

          I think there needs to be a distinction made between moderates on the one hand and people who engage in demonizing the left generally.  The above comment is a pretty good example of the kind of distortion and attack that is does not get good responses at this site for very good reason:  they represent an attack on a significant wing of the Democratic party and are in effect not so easily distinguished from the distortion and attacks coming from the right wing.

          Touch all that arises with a spirit of compassion. An activist seeks to change opinion.

          by Mindful Nature on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 08:52:56 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  It's not just the positions taken (6+ / 0-)

          Or even mostly the positions taken. It's the way they are expressed with name calling and insults and pejoratives - and then denying that the intent was to insult.

          “Texas is a so-called red state, but you’ve got 10 million Democrats here in Texas. And …, there are a whole lot of people here in Texas who need us, and who need us to fight for them.” President Obama

          by Catte Nappe on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 09:17:40 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  On scone thought. (0+ / 0-)

          Thi isn't any attack. It does express a notion that expressing liberal views makes some moderates feel uncomfortable which I find a head scratcher.  Not sure how to address this.

          Touch all that arises with a spirit of compassion. An activist seeks to change opinion.

          by Mindful Nature on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 09:57:27 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I think I must've been unclear (4+ / 0-)

            Sorry about that!  I welcome the proud voicing of liberal opinions and don't feel threatened by them.

            The diaries I was referring to -- and many of the comments supporting them -- alternately derided and attacked moderates as part of the problem.  As in: If you don't think President Obama is a willing tool of the secret power brokers, you're part of the problem.  

            I tried one of those meek responses -- Gee, at least Democratic presidents are good for avoiding the stuffing of the Supreme Court with more Scalias, Thomases, and Alitos -- and was rebuffed with highly-recced, angry responses about how that was basically appeasement talk.  

            I'm trying these days to stay away from those diaries, but with indifferent success.

            I'm not even particularly moderate -- a proud liberal, but I do believe that politics ain't beanbag, and that perfect is the enemy of the good.  But there are a lot of purity police on the streets 'round these parts.

            A 47% return on investment--that's pretty doggoned good!

            by deminva on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 11:30:08 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  Really? I admire this diary, I think it's honest (14+ / 0-)

      and helpful and very welcome, with a very cute dog...

      but "courageous" doesn't seem like an apt adjective to add to the list. I'm as much a part of the polarization here as anyone, but this diary is anti-pie. Why would anyone attack it?

      When you triangulate everything, you can't even roll downhill...

      by PhilJD on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 04:44:46 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Thank you for the complimenting my dog.... (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Patango, highacidity, grover

        In the big scheme of things she's more important than the diary. :)

        Wonders are many, but none so wonderful as man.

        by Morgan Sandlin on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 09:01:40 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Dogs are more important than almost (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Morgan Sandlin

          Anything, other than human family and human friends...

          Well, longterm, loyal, human friends. I do have a number of those, and I count myself incredibly lucky for their presence in my life.  But (counting on fingers) I think at this point, I've had one or two more dogs, all told.

          Yup, dogs are important.

          :)

          © grover


          So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

          by grover on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 11:50:32 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  It's not us liberals and progressives (0+ / 0-)

        and generally bad people who are going to attack Morgan for this.

        Look at where the first attack came from.

        Ou sont les neigedens d'antan?

        by SouthernLiberalinMD on Tue Aug 06, 2013 at 06:58:47 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Cryptic message or dense receiver. (2+ / 0-)

      I have no idea who you are warning Morgan to look out for?     The only totally strange diary I saw was this one .   The pure angst because he couldn't control people he thought wrong was amazing.  

      Some diaries are just like cop catchers (the guy that passes you doing 90 when you're doing 80 on the interstate).   Click in, check out the names in the recs or HRs - and you have them all neatly sorted out.

      What we need is a Democrat in the White House. Warren 2016

      by dkmich on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 08:45:53 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You missed all the, uh, fun. (0+ / 0-)

        And I apparently missed one of the more outrageous ones myself.

        You had a good Sunday then.

        ;)

        © grover


        So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

        by grover on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 11:56:13 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  grover (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      grover

      consider yourself lucky.
      My Beagle would climb the tree to get out of the yard.
      After 7 months of thinking I had FINALLY found all her holes in the fence, and trimming trees she could climb, out she went last night.
      Came in with that Beagle look saying, "I know it was bad, but I couldn't help following my nose"
      Sigh.

      Gitmo is a Concentration Camp. Not a Detention Center. Torture happens at Concentration Camps. Torture happens at Gitmo. How much further will US values fall? Where is YOUR outrage at what the United States does in OUR names? SORRY FOR THE TYPOS :)

      by snoopydawg on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 10:08:25 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I promise I will not bring out the Bee Gees (0+ / 0-)

      this time. :-)

      Ou sont les neigedens d'antan?

      by SouthernLiberalinMD on Tue Aug 06, 2013 at 06:57:14 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Thanks for your diary (24+ / 0-)

    Tipped and recommended.

    And your dog ROCKS.

    :)




    Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us. ~ J. Garcia

    by DeadHead on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 01:55:38 AM PDT

  •  I can't figure out if I'm moderate or not (19+ / 0-)

    Especially not when I look at this image:

    The colored in boxes, red and blue, voted for the Amash amendment to curtail the NSA.  

    Since I would be one of the colored boxes, does that make me right wing or left wing or moderate?  I ask because I think the people complaining that we're not friendly to moderates are the same people griping against those of us that wanted the Amash Amendment passed.

    I don't see a moderate position in this at all.  Look at the picture!  Are the moderates the ones not colored in, because they're almost as bipartisan as the ones that are filled in.  Is a moderate somebody that is closer to the Independent position?  Well, there have been polls, I think, now, that show that Independents are more pissed off about the NSA than even Democrats AND Republicans.

    So, if being with the majority of Democrats is not moderate, and being with almost half of a bipartisan consensus in Congress is not moderate, and being closer in position to Independents is not moderate, then what the fuck does it mean?

    The only thing I can think of is that it means pro-establishment.  I, particularly, don't see why we should call that moderate either, except that if those people want to call themselves that, what can we do?

    They're welcome here, I guess.  I've never told anybody to go away, but I've been told to go away many times.  I've been in the minority here on some topics as well, so I try to be tolerant.  I just think it's a strange choice of name to choose for yourself on this one issue.  Which is what I think the current brouhaha is really about.

    •  Dumbo....seriously, this diary was NOT in (25+ / 0-)

      response to anything to do with the NSA issue, Snowden, etc., etc..

      It was in response to an individual stating (roughly paraphrasing here) that moderates couldn't write a diary here or they would be treated terribly.

      That's the 3rd or 4th time that the "moderates aren't able to thrive here" has been used and I strongly disagree.

      You do raise a good question. "What's a moderate?" Even writing this diary and thinking of where I am  politically its a tough one.

      As for as the NSA issue, I would vote to curtail some of their domestic actions...so what does that make me on that issue?

      I'm still learning about what is being presented as options and certainly have no firm answers at the moment...which is why I like to engage with individuals here.

      Wonders are many, but none so wonderful as man.

      by Morgan Sandlin on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 02:29:35 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Dumbo. (7+ / 0-)

      There truly IS no  "moderate" position at this point in American politics. Insofar as it exists, it manifests as the Administration capitulating to hostage-taking by the RightWingNuts aka Teahadists.

      Any GOPer who doesn't toe the line of the Teahadists will be primaried out by the NutJobs.

      Any Democrat with liberal tendencies  has been gerrymandered out of his/her district.

      The game is rigged. The payoff is in. The GOP is completely and totally corrupted.

      Irony takes a worse beating from Republicans than Wile E. Coyote does from Acme. --Tara the Antisocial Social Worker

      by Youffraita on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 02:29:59 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  But... but... (11+ / 0-)

        The teabaggers were the red ones in that image above that voted for the Amash Amendment!

        So that means I'm allied with both a majority of Democrats and teabaggers.  That only leaves Chuck Schumer and Dick Cheney!  Are they the moderates?

        Politics makes for strange bedfellows, and lately it seems to be making very strange ones, if we find ourselves having to choose between siding with the teabaggers or siding with Pelosi.  And then choosing the teabaggers.  

        Does that make me a moderate?  It sounds like I'm the one willing to reach across the aisle!

        •  Seem like the NSA issue cuts a new divide (7+ / 0-)

          that doesn't adhere to the Left/Right, D/R regime.
          The Amash amendment vote is anomalous to the rest of this session and is very interesting as a result.
          It's also very hopeful. The fact that there IS a bipartisan issue here, one that came reasonably close to passing, I believe, portends well for eventually reining in the Intel apparatus.
          The laws that allowed NSA to grow and flourish should never have been passes in the first place. They should have sunsetted during BushCheney. Congress was Shock&Awed into passing them and then renewing them (Trrrrrrrrrrrrrsms! Anthrax!) and no executive, no matter what their persuasion, will cede power voluntarily.
          It may not come next year, being an election year and this being a divisive issue in both parties, but I'm hoping for a push in 2015 to take this power away from the Executive or at least limit it and make the oversight more transparent. Regardless of who the next President is.

          If I ran this circus, things would be DIFFERENT!

          by CwV on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 04:38:19 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Since when does Corporatist= moderate? (12+ / 0-)

          Schumer and Cheney= Corporatists.

          I don't believe that THAT means the others are moderates. Perhaps more moderate than their red and blue friends, but its definitely on a sliding scale.

          Our political system has been in disarray for a very very long time. It's hard to tell who the hell anyone is any more.

          Gentlemen, congratulations. You're everything we've come to expect from years of government training (Zed, MIB).

          by GreenMother on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 05:51:35 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  There is no (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Dumbo

          political spectrum that is applicable anymore. It has been manipulated to suit the current non partisan stench emanating form DC and is part of the Kabuki show enacted by our duly elected pols. It is now not based on ideology, principles held,  positions of policy or even inalienable truths,  but instead is simply a marketing ploy.

          It pits people against each other and garnishes support of both anti-democratic god awful policy or god awful candidates. Once they win will call what ever nasty ass anti--democratic thing they implement moderate responsible or centrist. It's cart before the horse politics that calls what ever load of bs. that's in the cart whatever they think will bring in the votes. Most people think their positions are moderate as they are the center of their own perceptions.  

          'The pump don't work cause the vandals stole the handles'
             

    •  I don't understand that image (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Dumbo, freakofsociety, Aquarius40

      is there some type of double secret organizational key that only insiders get?

      Or I am the only dumbass who doesn't get it?  (that's often the case!).

      •  Blue colored dots represent (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        3goldens

        Democratic congress critters who voted FOR the Amash Amendment (which offered some weak rein-ins to the NSA).

        Likewise, red colored dots represent Republicans who voted for the Amash amendment.  The faint red and blue spots are Congressmen who voted NO.

        •  Yes, that much I understand (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Dumbo

          what I don't understand is their spatial positioning in various places on the seating chart.

          I assume each house member has an assigned seat, the relative position of which is (or should be) commonly and instantly recognized by a knowledgeable citizen?

          I.e., 3 row down 7 spaces from the left - yeah, uh-uh, that's my guy! (or gal).

          •  Oh, I'm not sure. (0+ / 0-)

            Meteor Blades explained it in the original diary I stole this from.  I didn't pay much attention to that part.

          •  That was my thought too (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Roadbed Guy, Patango, Rei, Catte Nappe

            If the chart is supposed to have some relationship to moderate versus extreme, which is the only way I was able to understand the comment, then presumably it would be organized so that the extremes were at the extremities, and the moderates would be in the middle.  The comment would then make some sense, since there appears to be no correlation between position on the chart and the vote.

            But as we all know, representatives are not seated that way. The only real structure is by party, and I like you have no idea where any specific individual is seated. So to my eyes, the chart only shows a fairly bipartisan spread, which is not the same thing as moderate versus extreme.

            Furthermore, the Amash Amendment was peculiar in that it appealed more to a kind of paranoid libertarianism that infects a number of our elected representatives on both sides of the aisle and of varying degrees of overall extremism and moderation, so even if the chart did represent extremism versus moderation, which it doesn't, it still wouldn't be relevant to that issue, since the vote wasn't on something that distinguished extremists from moderates in the first place.

            •  Actually, I did not know that! (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Patango, Catte Nappe
              But as we all know, representatives are not seated that way.
              I had always kind of assumed that they had assigned seats, to avoid all hell breaking loose and the weaker and more infirm getting trampled in the rush to get the best seats . . .. .

              But yeah, I looked it up and you're absolutely correct:

              Unlike the Members of the Senate, Members of the House have no assigned seats but are by tradition divided by party; Members of the Democratic Party sit to the Speaker's right and Members of the Republican Party sit to his left.
              link

              Interestingly, however, the senate does have assigned seating.  Perhaps that goes to the "weak and infirm" hypothesis I mentioned.

            •  I looked up the original diary that (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              serendipityisabitch

              Meteor Blades (no, he didn't author it) linked to above.  

              The spacing of the dots on the graph come from YouGov's Ideology Analysis and Scoring method.  Explained here.  It groups members on the graph by their ideology linkage, as explained in a rather arcane way that's not necessarily intuitive.

              Most votes scored this way tend to show big separate lumps of red and blue.  Amash was different.

          •  yes, left - right position = right/left score (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Roadbed Guy, Dumbo

            This is NOT a seating chart. The position of the square in left/right orientation is based on the con/lib score. The image is confusing because it is curved and has rows (which apparently mean nothing).

            Dumbo has a really good point, BTW:

            Look at the blue side of that chart from left to right. The only group that rejected Amash in large numbers were the conservative Dems (blues closest to the reds). These Dems are not only likely more reliant on support from the DSCC, and so more likely to toe the party line, but are ideologically closer to Obama, who is much more of a conservative than many here want to admit.

            And that may be one source of the "problems" on this site: there are quite a few people here who think of themselves as moderate but are actually conservative. I think this is a byproduct of the rightward shift of the Establishment, such that someone like Obama, who in past eras would be called a "conservative Democrat" is now called a "progressive".

            History repeats itself, first as tragedy, second as farce - Karl Marx

            by quill on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 09:36:31 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Actually, there's not a very pronounced trend, (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Catte Nappe, quill

              amongst the dems.  There was another diary, I think by JoanMar? that broke them down a different way and showed that congressmen who voted against Amash had received twice as much money per capita from defense firms.

              More interesting is the scattershot nature of the red dots.  Republicans are not united on this, so we can't scream to high heaven that they're the problem because they're for it or against it.  They're disunited.  Those of us that were FOR Amash (and I was only slightly for it because it was too weak), see reason to want to create a consensus with those on the right that are in favor of reigning in the NSA, even if they want to do it for paranoid anti-Obama reasons.  I'd like to do it for paranoid anti-Cheney reasons, so at least we all have that in common: that we don't trust all presidents past, present, and future with these kinds of secret authoritarian powers.

              •  Important to remember in looking at that graphic (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                quill

                There are the backroom discussions among both parties. How many total votes need to be locked in? Who "needs" to vote a certain way to protect their constituent support and re-election chances? Who is going to "take one for the team"?

                “Texas is a so-called red state, but you’ve got 10 million Democrats here in Texas. And …, there are a whole lot of people here in Texas who need us, and who need us to fight for them.” President Obama

                by Catte Nappe on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 06:21:00 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  Also, I'm not sure it's even correct (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Catte Nappe, quill

              some of the pro-NSA guys as being conservative rather than moderate.  Conservative like Rand Paul?  He was for Amash.  Hell, Amash himself was a conservative, so conservative like Amash?  And I already pointed out way up there that polls show Independents are MORE disturbed about the NSA than either Republicans or Democrats.

              So I don't think you can rightly call NSA-supporters here conservative.  It seems that left-right-moderate categorization is a waste of time on this.  There are other factors at work that have nothing to do with right-left alignment.

              •  I was referring to the Dem side only (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Dumbo

                I think it was a different calculus for Republicans, and yeah both sides had members with financial incentives to vote against, so that was an issue too.

                In regard to people on this site, I agree there are surely multiple factors that could make an "NSA supporter" besides left/right tendency.

                History repeats itself, first as tragedy, second as farce - Karl Marx

                by quill on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 09:06:06 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

    •  This is actually a very good point. (0+ / 0-)

      The labels have become nearly meaningless in many cases.

      Ou sont les neigedens d'antan?

      by SouthernLiberalinMD on Tue Aug 06, 2013 at 07:01:38 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  OK, female Lab and mostly green grass (9+ / 0-)

    WTF. How do you do it? I have a 1.5 year old black labrador that looks identical to the dog pictured yet the grass in the yard that she spends much of her time is marked by yellow or dead spots. It is as if a meth lab is dumping byproduct on the grass. I used to have great lawn in the backyard. It used to be nice.

    I've even tried those grass saver pills. Doesn't work. What's up?


    i just baptized andrew breitbart into the church of islam, planned parenthood, the girl scouts and three teachers unions. - @blainecapatch

    by bobinson on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 03:04:13 AM PDT

  •  Not sure I agree with that comment (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    high uintas, antooo

    The one that informed you that you would not be welcome here as a moderate?  We have quite an active gun rights community here which creates diaries often.  Not a popular position here, perhaps, but they hold their own. And they do it the "right" way - with their own linked data, and I think that's the key.

    I'm suggesting, I guess, that an unassailable link trumps an unpopular position here.  We're big on links to respected writers here, by and large, and I'm suggesting that any unpopular position will be accepted here (albeit begrudgingly) if it's solidly supported.  We'll also be ready to go with links to the contrary.

    Is the burden of providing those references perhaps greater for you than for the next person?  Probably.  But would you expect any less?  And is that really too great a price to pay?

    Another beautiful day in the Dystopian Surveillance State.

    by thenekkidtruth on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 03:30:00 AM PDT

    •  In my recent (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      tommymet, sviscusi, Rei, mallyroyal, WB Reeves

      experience, asking for links elicits a pretty nasty response.  

      I was told that it wasn't allowed here.

      I was told I was baiting the person.

      I was told that I already know where to find the information, so I was lying when I said I hadn't seen it.

      In fact I was supposedly the "moderate" in that situation (actually I'm not a moderate - very left - but was accused literally of being like George Bush) and it was the "very left" people who accused me of being cynical and manipulative because I asked for a damn link.

      Also I have never had an issue getting along here, and never had my liberal credentials questioned, until a few weeks ago.

      Some subjects just bring out the ire and people read what isn't there.

      Change will not come if we wait for some other person or some other time. We are the ones we've been waiting for. We are the change that we seek. Barack Obama

      by delphine on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 05:58:17 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Recent and germane links are perfectly OK. (6+ / 0-)

        What Markos has said he won't tolerate (if he sees it) are links to months or years old fights, in unrelated diaries.

        When you triangulate everything, you can't even roll downhill...

        by PhilJD on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 06:03:40 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Someone claimed (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Rei, WB Reeves

          they'd seen a particular comment/view over and over.

          I truly had not seen that particular comment at all and if there was an example I wanted to see it.

          From that day or the few days before that diary.

          I was slammed, accused of all sorts of things.

          Because I asked for a link.

          People hear "sinister" in their own head because they know you don't agree with them.  

          Change will not come if we wait for some other person or some other time. We are the ones we've been waiting for. We are the change that we seek. Barack Obama

          by delphine on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 06:17:50 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Here is the thread (5+ / 0-)

          "speaking of leaks"

          http://www.dailykos.com/...

          The person made a claim that something was said.  I asked for a link.  He said asking for links is "poor form" here.

          He claimed there was this "phrase" that I should search, but I didn't see the phrase he was referring to.

          I didn't search for anything, but I paraphrased (tiny snark there) and was literally blasted - as if I would add words that aren't there and search for that and then claim I couldn't find it.

          But the commenter accused me of doing just that.  Even got recc'd for saying this sort of shit to me.

          Perhaps this is why people get angry during these fights and feel as though they're arguing with someone more interested in tricks than dialogue?
          Your comments have changed from open questioning of a change of tone on this site to hissing opportunistically and demanding links when I've said several times how you can access the comment I mentioned.
          Hissing.  Because I asked for a link, and he refused to give it and told me to search for it myself using some sort of undefined "phrase".  

          I'm happy to search for stuff myself.  I enjoy it.

          But at least give me something specific to search for.

          Change will not come if we wait for some other person or some other time. We are the ones we've been waiting for. We are the change that we seek. Barack Obama

          by delphine on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 06:30:19 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  someone disagreed and got five HRs (8+ / 0-)

    nuff said.

    “Conservation… is a positive exercise of skill and insight, not merely a negative exercise of abstinence and caution…” Aldo Leopold

    by ban nock on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 04:02:41 AM PDT

    •  No, someone hijacked the thread . . . (12+ / 0-)

      . . . to attack on an unrelated subject, and you defend him.  The martyr complex is blossoming.

      •  Sometimes, I'm really glad I miss (3+ / 0-)

        most of this bullshit now.

        Sometimes, I'm not glad.

        Fuckin' Dkos addiction.

        If you want to argue in good faith, own your shit and stop with the distractions. -- Dallasdoc

        by Colorado is the Shiznit on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 08:45:36 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  And that's the problem. (0+ / 0-)

        Because whenever anyone disagrees, you all instantly classify them as a thread hijacker or troll and rate them to oblivion.  YOUR side can write whatever the heck nasty stuff they want, but for anyone who disagrees with you...

        Já þýðir já. Nei þýðir nei. Hvað er svona erfitt við það?

        by Rei on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 11:23:18 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Changing the subject of a thread is a hijack. (2+ / 0-)

          That's the fucking definition, in fact.  It doesn't matter if it's a moderate or a leftie doing it, it's still a hijack, and that's HRable.  Do it over and over, and it is trolling, intentionally disrupting, the definition of trolling, and that's HRable.  And posters form both sides do it.  Claiming your side is victimized is ridiculous.

          •  So you're saying that the people who call (0+ / 0-)

            themselves moderates and claim to be drown out here on DK aren't, for the most part, doing so because of the Snowden/Manning/Assange/Greenwald issue?

            As Dr. Who wrote (and got hide rated for):

            I mean let's cut through the crap since the 'moderate' question relates to a specific topic(s) at hand, not some general overall feeling.
            If you disagree then explain what topics you think are actually the cause of this.

            Já þýðir já. Nei þýðir nei. Hvað er svona erfitt við það?

            by Rei on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 01:06:52 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Any topic on which one can criticize... (0+ / 0-)

              ...the current administration gets the same reaction -- on corporate health care a few years ago we saw the same argument made, at times by some of the same people.  On FISA in 2008, on Chained CPI last winter, on the all-of-the-above energy policy, on wars and drone strikes, on Occupy, over and over the critics have criticized and the defenders have screeched they're being oppressed by organized bands of bullies.  Never mind that those same people gang up to HR the lefties anytime one of those ingrates steps across the line.

              Pick your issue, and you'll find the same complaint.  Because the moderates are incensed that their version of what's rainbowiest is not the one absolutely everyone is embracing.  It's a fucking mantra, something repeated endlessly.  And ascribing it to one issue of one moment is a falsehood.

              •  I've no idea who all the sides are (0+ / 0-)

                still trying to figure out who is sux and who is rox on this thread. But it's still kind a funny. diary about no one duming on people for a difference of opion, someone disagrees, gets hrd.

                “Conservation… is a positive exercise of skill and insight, not merely a negative exercise of abstinence and caution…” Aldo Leopold

                by ban nock on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 07:33:09 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

    •  No, not 'nuff said' (7+ / 0-)

      Because your failure to read the diary and recognize the threadjack means there's more for you to absorb.

      Good luck.




      Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us. ~ J. Garcia

      by DeadHead on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 05:42:29 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I was going to berate you for daring to speak (28+ / 0-)

    here as a moderate, but your dog is too cute and seems to be a clone of mine, so I will be nice :-)

    The funny thing about DailyKos is how many people here participate daily but seem to hate the site and most of the people on it.

    My time here ebbs and flows, depending on what's going on in my life. When I come back, it's like I never left. It's still the same fights between the same people. I'm not gonna lie, I'm a sucker for meta so sometimes I jump into the mosh pit, but I don't take it all that seriously.

    As I said to someone else last night, you get what you give out of this place. I am the very caricature of a liberal. I want socialized health care and an end to war, an expansion of welfare, free higher education, comprehensive sex-education that includes how to enjoy it, etc. etc.

    But I'm realistic about it, and I don't want to fight with others who disagree with me, like you, I'd rather just talk about it. I also know that we can work towards these things incrementally; though it is upsetting to me when we face a set back in any of them.

    In other words, there are a lot more of you and I than there are of the people who believe this place just sucks even while they spend all their waking hours here. I don't worry too much about them. Sometimes I jump into pie fights and get hit with the pie. I don't get upset about that either. I know exactly what I'm getting into, so I can't complain about it.

    Mostly, though, I just like to talk. Or, to be more accurate, to write. I'm not interested in making enemies. I need you on my side, even in you are a moderate :-)

    P.S. I am not a crackpot.

    by BoiseBlue on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 04:09:58 AM PDT

  •  I'm a moderate for sure. (34+ / 0-)

    But I haven't been treated badly on this site at all. That's mostly because I try to post my opinions in a respectful manner even with people I disagree with. A lot of moderates on this site don't do that.

    But frankly, neither do a lot of the hardcore progressives. I can see why some of the moderates on the site are upset even if they haven't personally been the kindest people themselves. It's not that people like me are personally being flamed, it's that people I respect like Barack Obama are called all kinds of disrespectful names. That personally automatically puts me in defensive mode even when it's an issue I mostly agree with his critics about (like NSA spying). It's not that I don't think moderates are welcome (I like this place and am thankful that even the people who disagree with me are kind to me) it's that I don't think a lot of Democratic politicians are. Which is too bad because they used to post here a lot, even in non-election years. I'm afraid they've been chased off which hurts our movement in general.

    Why do I have the feeling George W. Bush joined the Stonecutters, ate a mess of ribs, and used the Constitution as a napkin?

    by Matt Z on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 04:18:35 AM PDT

    •  I admire your tolerant and respectful tone. (7+ / 0-)

      I however am a liberal not a moderate. I became even more so after 10 years in the USAF where I was frightened and appalled by waste, belligerence, and widespread disregard for basic human rights and constitutional principles.

      Sometimes I vent upon people who haven't seen much of the world and advocate pro-surveillance, pro-military, pro-police state positions.

      I'll continue to do so. I wish it could be all "kum-ba-ya my lord" here. It's far too late for that. Some peoplo need to wake the fuck up. Not you. I'm just thinking out load and offering a different viewpoint.

      Reaganomics noun pl: belief that unregulated capitalism can provide unlimited goods for unlimited people on a planet with finite resources, that government is bad, that we can increase revenue by decreasng revenue.

      by FrY10cK on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 05:32:32 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Hear, hear. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        FrY10cK
        Some people need to wake the fuck up.
        This is American politics in general right now, double for the "moderate" position.

        Too often, moderate means "I'm proud to be advocating that we do nothing that upsets anyone or that is very different from what we are already doing, because those things would by definition be extreme."

        Well if we are going to save the country (not to mention the world),

        1) Some people will have to end up pissed off and/or devastated
        2) Some very radical things will have to be done

        Too often, moderate is just another word for "willfully a step behind the nature of the problems, in order to preserve social decorum."

        Well fuck social decorum—future generations are depending on us. Well, as many as will survive the mess we've made and continue to make.

        I have little patience for those that put propriety over basic human rights, dignity, and life. Propriety is nice as far as it goes, but in the grand scheme of things it's about as important as Twinkies and Fruit by the Foot.

        -9.63, 0.00
        "Liberty" is deaf, dumb, and useless without life itself.

        by nobody at all on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 09:03:45 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  A good comment but (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Catte Nappe, FiredUpInCA

        when basically any disagreement starts being smeared as "pro-surveillance, pro-military, pro-police state" we've jumped the shark.

        For the sake of clarity, I'm not saying that all such behavior is on one side. I am saying that Delphine's comments above don't describe and isolated instance but a growing trend.

        When people who have spent their political lives on the Left are being libeled as Right Wingers, etc., we have a real problem.

         

        Nothing human is alien to me.

        by WB Reeves on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 12:28:23 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I don't think the pols have been chased away. (7+ / 0-)

      It's not an election year is all. They'll be back next year, when they need us. When they don't need us, like now, they stay away because they're afraid the orange might rub off on them (i.e., their opponents will attack them for hanging out with us crazy liberals).

      I am quite critical of this administration's policies, but I figured out a long time ago that there's nothing to be gained by
      a) calling other Democrats names (though it can be fun to call Republicans names), or
      b) trying to psychoanalyze them to discern why they are voting or governing as they do.

      Instead, I decide what policy goals I would like to see enacted and then work to achieve those. It can be pretty damn frustrating, my goals are rarely achieved, but even so it's more productive than hanging around here hijacking diaries I don't agree with. That would accomplish nothing except to give me a stomachache and a big head full of self-righteousness.

      "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself."........ "The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." (yeah, same guy.)

      by sidnora on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 06:11:04 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I'm sorry I missed the meet-up (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        sidnora

        Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends. - Gandalf the Grey

        by No Exit on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 07:32:22 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Me too. (0+ / 0-)

          Your absence was noted. I hope that whatever kept you away has been resolved, positively. Looks like the photo diary will be tomorrow evening.

          "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself."........ "The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." (yeah, same guy.)

          by sidnora on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 04:32:36 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Depends on where you are (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Matt Z, Sylv, Catte Nappe, sidnora

        In Virginia it IS an election year, and a very important one. Though unfortunately all we have to choose between is a crooked carpetbagger and a batshit misogynist science-hating LUNATIC.

        I'll take the crook for 10, Alex. (sigh)

        If it's
        Not your body,
        Then it's
        Not your choice
        And it's
        None of your damn business!

        by TheOtherMaven on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 07:46:23 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I'll take the crook, too. (0+ / 0-)

          I don't expect him to show up here looking for support, though. I mean, this guy used to be a pretty prolific and high-profile poster here.

          "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself."........ "The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." (yeah, same guy.)

          by sidnora on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 04:38:10 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  And here's the real divide. (0+ / 0-)

      A lot of us feel no need to pull punches when we criticize the policies of elected officials. Nor do we feel like we should pull punches when we identify their loyalties and their financial ties to people outside politics. We don't see why we should pull our punches any more with Democratic elected officials than we did with Republican officials during the Bush years. And there's the ineradicable rift down the middle of the site.

      Ou sont les neigedens d'antan?

      by SouthernLiberalinMD on Tue Aug 06, 2013 at 07:08:53 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Thank you. We probably disagree as often as not, (8+ / 0-)

    but I heartily support with every word in this diary. I just went and clicked the little follow heart icon on your page.

    When you triangulate everything, you can't even roll downhill...

    by PhilJD on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 04:20:49 AM PDT

  •  Back in college, during the Late Jurassic Period (15+ / 0-)

    I took a political economy class.

    In that class were some really smart, politically-aware people, me not being one of them. I only took it because I admired the professor. I was almost out of my depth there.

    One thing I took away was the idea that this "left-Right number line" concept of politics is artificial and misleading.

    It''s still with us and, I think, still causes problems in perception as people assume that it is real, when it isn't.

    I take some of those silly online "political" tests and invariably score way to the "left" of those who voted for Obama, fwiw.

    Political thought is much more like a word cloud. Everybody has their own ideas they value and like-minded people tend to flock together. Maybe that's where the number-line idea comes from.

    A grossly simplified example would be - not to perpetuate the "spying topic which this diary is NOT about, but just as an example - teabaggers and liberals sharing the idea that spying on our phone calls is undesirable. We may have different values and thought processes at work as to why we 'got there" but there it is. Don't agree on anything else, but we agree on that. Again, just an example.

    That "other diary' was/is a huge trainwreck, that poster/kossack is to be taken with quite a bit of salt, some mayonnaise and some chocolate, just to make palatable. I would NOT take anything that person has to say seriously or to heart.

  •  Politics ain't beanbag (5+ / 0-)

    and neither is commenting on political blogs. People of all political stripes need to stop pretending to be a victim, especially on DK. So far as I know, there is no political test that Markos administers that determines whether or not somebody can join.

    Besides, in a time when millions of Americans are having horrible times just living in the real world—long-term unemployment, catastrophic medical bills, crushing student loans burdens, not to mention Republican assaults on constitutional rights—people whining about whether or not they feel welcome commenting on a political blog is both comical and asinine. Sack up.

  •  I Am A Liberal But Not So Much A Libertarian (8+ / 0-)

    I have to say this site is becoming more of a libertarian site than for democrats.  I have been a democrat forever.  I think that Snowden and Manning were leakers, and not whistleblowers.  If every soldier, IT worker, security specialist leaked national security information our country would be in the toilet.  To say what Manning and Snowden did was heroic is insane.  What they did was betray the US, their company and everyone who ever worked for the government in any capacity  I have worked for the government for 23 years and never once would I have betrayed my country by leaking classified information.  Sure, the US has done bad things, but this is our country for better or worse.  Manning should have gone to his commanders and demanded they do the right thing.  Snowden should have gone to his bosses and tell them what was going on was wrong.  You don't have to betray your country to get the truth out or try to get things to change.   Leaking to me is a cowardly way to do things.

    "Don't Let Them Catch You With Your Eyes Closed"

    by rssrai on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 04:57:57 AM PDT

    •  This sounds familiar (14+ / 0-)
      Sure, the US has done bad things, but this is our country for better or worse.
      Manning was a Private. He was going to go to his commanders and demand they do the right thing? Really? The people that committed those war crimes have never been punished and somehow you think had he "demanded" they do something it would have happened? He'd have been told to STFU and run out on a rail. Please explain how the truth would have come out in either of your scenarios.

      ~War is Peace~Freedom is Slavery~Ignorance is Strength~ George Orwell "1984"

      by Kristina40 on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 05:05:30 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Well we all see how well that worked for female (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        PhilJD, Kristina40, wayoutinthestix, quill

        rape victims in the military.

        Manning was a Private. He was going to go to his commanders and demand they do the right thing?
        He would have lost his security clearance and been forced out--You are completely correct Kristina40. And he would have been harassed all the way out the door to boot.

        The military will/has made an example of him. That is there way. But it doesn't make it right.

        Gentlemen, congratulations. You're everything we've come to expect from years of government training (Zed, MIB).

        by GreenMother on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 05:57:24 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Civil libertarian <> Libertarian (5+ / 0-)

      As Democrats, we should fight for individual civil liberties.  LGBT rights are liberties.  That's not even a left right thing, but a right wrong thing.  A functioning republic is a basic necessity if you want anything at all to work.  

      Bad things aren't bad! And anyway, there's mitigation!

      by Nada Lemming on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 07:27:08 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Naw. (0+ / 0-)

      Heroes.

      Leaking isn't the cowardly way to do things. It's the brave way to do things. Passing the buck to your boss is the cowardly way to do things, and exactly the way most Americans up and down the food chain do things today. Hand the problem off and continue to obey orders in the meantime. History tells us where this leads.

      Our country?

      A country is a socially constructed entity. There is nothing in nature that demands our current Westphalean system, nor anything in nature that links an individual to a particular country in it once born.

      It's our world and we are life forms on it. Countries can go fuck themselves for all I care.

      -9.63, 0.00
      "Liberty" is deaf, dumb, and useless without life itself.

      by nobody at all on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 09:08:45 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Duck. n/t (0+ / 0-)

      "Anyone who thinks Obama is like Nixon is a moron. More than that, a F###ING moron". Kos, 5-24-13

      by Lying eyes on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 09:38:35 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  when people say "you won't listen to me !!!", what (5+ / 0-)

    they are REALLY saying is "you don't agree with me !!" And they are precisely correct.

    I listen just fine.  I hear just fine. I understand every single word. And I do nothing at all to stop anyone from saying whatever they want to say.

    I simply don't agree with it.  

    Alas, some people just can't stand the fact that not everyone agrees with them. And then, like the goppers, they weep and whine that everyone everywhere is out to get them boo hoo hoo.  (shrug)

    •  Lately (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Nada Lemming

      the complaint been more like "We aren't allowed to talk!!"

      Just because people disagree.

      Change will not come if we wait for some other person or some other time. We are the ones we've been waiting for. We are the change that we seek. Barack Obama

      by delphine on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 06:14:04 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  it's amusing: "help help, I'm being repressed !!" (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        kenlac, JosephK74, WB Reeves

        they cry----in public on the Rec List to hundreds of thousands of people who see their every word.

        It's nice to know that the fundamentalist wingnuts aren't the only ones with massive martyr complexes.

        But then, if we define "fundamentalist" as "someone who can't tolerate anyone thinking differently than he/she does", lots of us here are just as fundamentalist as the goppers are.

      •  You do have to develop a thick skin (7+ / 0-)

        when questioning whether the NSA is actually spying on everybody's Google searches can get you accused of supporting the Stasi style police state.

        •  And then called (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          WB Reeves

          an agent provocateur or troll and hide rated.

          And I've been called a lot worse by them.  And the funny thing is, I'm actually for the most part a Manning supporter, and have mixed views on Snowden.  But because I'm not 100% behind the "Manning, Greenwald, Assange and Snowden are flawless saints" line, I'm therefore The Enemy, allied with Obama in the Evil League of Evil to stamp out all that's good and pure in the world.

          Já þýðir já. Nei þýðir nei. Hvað er svona erfitt við það?

          by Rei on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 11:27:49 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  No, you just drag Assange into *every* discussion (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            SouthernLiberalinMD

            and flog him publicly for his private faults.

            Over. and over. and over. and over. again.

            Moreover, you just did it AGAIN.

            Repeatedly.

            By now EVERYBODY on DKos knows you think Assange is lower than pond scum.

            That hobbyhorse has long since been reduced to its component atoms and the atoms have been dissipated.

            So enough already!

            If it's
            Not your body,
            Then it's
            Not your choice
            And it's
            None of your damn business!

            by TheOtherMaven on Tue Aug 06, 2013 at 07:09:08 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Very seldom am I the one to bring up Assange. (0+ / 0-)

              You can check my comments history from before this thread if you don't believe me; I generally just respond when others do.  And in this exception, it was mentioned only in the context of the pie fights in the group list of "Manning, Greenwald, Assange and Snowden".  Are you seriously going to claim that Assange's name doesn't belong on that list?

              That said, since I do have an opinion, when other people bring up the topic of Assange, I do, and will continue to speak my mind.  And you have no right to tell me to shut up; my opinion is just as valid as yours.  As long as other people are expressing their views, I will express my right to say my views. Rather than being an authoritarian and trying to silence them.  cough

              And FYI, being a rape fugitive is not a "private fault".  Being found by a court to have probable cause of having raped someone is not a f*ing private matter whose fact one dare not raise.

              Já þýðir já. Nei þýðir nei. Hvað er svona erfitt við það?

              by Rei on Tue Aug 06, 2013 at 08:34:19 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

  •  What does "Independent Moderate" mean? (5+ / 0-)

    ....is it that you only agree with the Bat-Shit Crazies occasionally?

    Does it mean you think the minimum wage should only be raised fifty cents, rather than a couple of bux like the Dems, (or maybe it shouldn't be ABOLISHED, like the Bat-Shits say?)

    Does it actually mean you would rather be a Conservative, except they're all too nuts these daze?

    "I'm an INDEPENDENT" seems to be the mantra of conservatives who can't bring themselves to support the Bat-Shit Caucus....

    "Ronald Reagan is DEAD! His policies live on but we're doing something about THAT!"

    by leftykook on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 05:15:26 AM PDT

    •  That's simple enough (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      PhilJD, leftykook, grover, Morgan Sandlin

      it's halfway between "dependent moderate" and "independent extremist" !

    •  Like a broken clock, even batshit crazy can be (9+ / 0-)

      right by mere chance.

      If you disagree with people on principle alone, because of who they are, as opposed to the contents of their words--does that really strengthen your convictions or your position?

      I would say not. If I find myself in agreement with someone I historically abhor I would certainly, carefully examine the situation, but that does not preclude the possibility that I might sometimes be in agreement with someone I personally cannot stand, do not admire or like, or approve of.

      Such is life.

      If we as a group take the opposite tack no matter what, against the opposing camp--tell me then, how we as a nation of voters will ever gather sufficient numbers to take on the corporate interests that dump truckloads of money into our political process--money that they steal from us?

      Why even bother taking political action, if our only goal here is to hate and oppose our opponents 24-7?

      I am active to get things done. I am here to make permanent changes to a broken system and to heal it for all of us.

      Gentlemen, congratulations. You're everything we've come to expect from years of government training (Zed, MIB).

      by GreenMother on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 06:03:19 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The problem with "the opposing camp".. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        JosephK74

        ...isn't that they are the opposing camp, it's that they are dominated by people who are so wrong on every single issue of importance that there can be NO compromise with them.  They want to turn the country into some sort of John Birch Society Theme Park and they oppose EVERYTHING, whether or not there's a logical reason to oppose beyond "the other folks want it; doesn't matter what it is, we're against it!"

        It is IMPOSSIBLE to "moderate" Bat-Shit Crazy, it's impossible to have "bipartisan compromise" with people who think that "compromise" means "Give us everything we want NOW!"

        How can you work out political compromise with people who don't believe CO2 emissions from coal-fired power plants damage the environment, or that if it does, they don't care?

        How can you mingle good public policy with INSANE FUCKING NONSENSE and call it "bipartisan" or "moderate?"

        "Ronald Reagan is DEAD! His policies live on but we're doing something about THAT!"

        by leftykook on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 06:15:14 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Every single issue? Are you sure? (5+ / 0-)

          Every--Single---Issue?

          Every one?

          Wow.

          Well I guess I should just hate them all indiscriminately and throw poo on them whenever possible.

          On second thought, I choose to be the grown up. Sure I will get mad and pissed off, and frustrated a lot, but I choose to keep listening for the moments when we find common ground, and then utilize that as an in, to talk about everything.

          Gentlemen, congratulations. You're everything we've come to expect from years of government training (Zed, MIB).

          by GreenMother on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 06:31:01 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  GMother, I wasn't advocating HATING them... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            GreenMother

            ....just not giving them "the keys to the Car of State" or giving their delusions the same respect thoughtful disagreement ought to get in a discussion.

            I like yer last paragraph, those occasions when we get to show them that we don't have secret "666" tattoos under our hairlines ought not be missed, nor should we miss the occasional opportunities to show "common sense" in a nonsense-rich environment.

            "Ronald Reagan is DEAD! His policies live on but we're doing something about THAT!"

            by leftykook on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 07:06:55 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Cool--Thank you for graciously correcting me on (6+ / 0-)

              your position.

              At this point I don't wish to give the "keys" to either party. Both have proven to be total busts to me. But that's just me.

              On one hand, an increasingly invasive surveillance/police state and on the other, racists, and misogynists and bigots with end times ideations.

              I am not happy with either.

              And what I see here in the heart of a red state, are many conservatives, and libertarians and moderates who feel the same way. We don't agree on much, but we are all terribly unhappy with the status quo.

              I think we should take advantage of that. See if we can band together, temporarily, for common cause to fix what should be the minimal standards of democracy in this Democratic Republic. Then we can resume poo throwing without missing a beat.

              Gentlemen, congratulations. You're everything we've come to expect from years of government training (Zed, MIB).

              by GreenMother on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 07:13:51 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  A really good diary (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      quill

      from bbb, two years ago: Independent voters are actually closet partisans. It looks at the results of two big political surveys, and what the results suggest for Democratic election strategy. It gets into issues of "moderate" and "independent" pretty well.

    •  Presumably (3+ / 0-)

      the diarist is an Independent  which means he feels that both major parties are odious enough that you would not want an R or a D after your name.   This allows one to support any rare, rational ideas that might make it out of the circus known as congress.   A moderate, in my view, is someone who can get beyond hating everyone on the other side to at least have a discussion about solutions to a particular problem.

    •  Independent means I'm simply not (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Catte Nappe, highacidity

      registered with any political party.

      ..and as I've stated above, I'm not sure what "moderate" means as I grow and learn what is important to me.

      As far as the minimum wage is concerned I believe what we have now is a system where the middle class is supporting companies like McDonalds, WalMart, etc., by subsidizing their workers wages through our tax dollars so that they can maximize corporate profits......and then complain about those on the dole, the economy, etc, etc..

      Right now the minimum wage is nothing more than Corporate Welfare.

      Wonders are many, but none so wonderful as man.

      by Morgan Sandlin on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 09:25:21 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Do you want to apply your reasoning in this post (0+ / 0-)

      to Dumbo's post above?

      Já þýðir já. Nei þýðir nei. Hvað er svona erfitt við það?

      by Rei on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 11:29:29 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  New improved meta diary now with added (3+ / 0-)

    dog!

    Tipped for liberal black lab.

    Reaganomics noun pl: belief that unregulated capitalism can provide unlimited goods for unlimited people on a planet with finite resources, that government is bad, that we can increase revenue by decreasng revenue.

    by FrY10cK on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 05:18:46 AM PDT

  •  Being a moderate can also be a relative position (9+ / 0-)

    I suggest that a moderate is a person who tends to trend towards a political center, and that center moves. Especially when put into the perspective of all political possibilities with extremist authoritarianism at either end of the left / right spectrum with communism on the left and fascism on the right. In our country the current center has moved far to the right over the last 30 years. About 30 years before that it was equally far to the left of where it arrived just before the age of Reagan.

    I have, and still do in some ways, identify as a moderate although in today's climate I am part of the progressive movement which, as it did at the turn of the last century and in the 30's through the 60's sought to push that center leftwards. I see the Democratic Socialism of most first-world developed nations as modeled on our version of capitalism that we espoused during the late 40's and 50's when our a Marshall Plan rebuilt much of the old world nations decimated by WWII. A model of high taxation & strong government investment and an equal voice for labor at the same table as government and business. All of which distributes the bulk of a nation's wealth into the pockets of a middle class which is the most sustainable model for economic growth.

    While I think that Daily Kos is an engine for that leftward movement I agree that anyone is welcome here. Anything to the right of center will be questioned, but sometimes things to the right of center will work. Whatever anyone's position, they will be wrong about some things. But I believe that blueprint of the 30's through the early 60's that we developed holds most of our needed solutions. I hope that someday in a decade or two I'll be an average moderate in an America that is new New Deal neo-Keynesian nation built on ever greater equality of opportunity for all people.

    •  Excellent comment (0+ / 0-)

      Rather than pasting labels on ourselves, it would be more useful to determine where the current political center is, and then decide whether you like it where it is, would like to move it left, or would like to move it right.

      I bet that, presented that way, you'd see an amazing level of agreement on this site (that it needs to be moved to the left).

      "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself."........ "The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." (yeah, same guy.)

      by sidnora on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 06:18:16 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  There are two different "centers" (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Morgan Sandlin, Noodles, sidnora

        There's the public opinion "center" - and there's the Beltway Insider "center".

        Guess what? The public opinion "center" is WAY to the left of the Beltway Insider "Center" - because that "center" has been dragged SO FAR to the right.

        If it's
        Not your body,
        Then it's
        Not your choice
        And it's
        None of your damn business!

        by TheOtherMaven on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 07:52:08 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Perhaps less so in less trying times as ours (0+ / 0-)

          Either way, in the end, the public opinion center ultimately wins.

          And the more so those in the beltway see it otherwise, ultimately the more they risk their livelihood, or at least their influence, becoming irrelevant.

        •  While I agree to some extent, (0+ / 0-)

          I think that even the popular "center" is way to the right of where it was 40 years ago, especially on economic issues. The Beltway center I sway to the right of that.

          "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself."........ "The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." (yeah, same guy.)

          by sidnora on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 04:42:34 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Unless, perhaps, you are a moderate ; ) n/t (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        sidnora
        •  I think that even moderates (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Noodles

          (by DK standards) would like to see the center shift somewhat to the left, even if they see it in terms of Obama being obstructed.

          "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself."........ "The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." (yeah, same guy.)

          by sidnora on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 04:40:36 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Step 1: recognize that the (15+ / 0-)

    RecList is ~75% shit, and spend time here (beyond the FP)  reading farther down the Recent Diaries list and checking out Community Spotlight. Does wonders for sanity...

    Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time. (Terry Pratchett)

    by angry marmot on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 05:28:49 AM PDT

  •  I'll agree with you on being a moderate, (5+ / 0-)

    if you'll let me define "moderate" as somewhere in the middle between "apathetic" and "over the top", rather than in my political inclinations.

    Everybody seems to have a different definition of what politically moderate ought to mean, and it seems to me that declaring along the political spectrum starts fights all by itself, with the people who are sure that what you say means you must agree with x, and disagree with y and z, and they're going to get you for it.  I suspect that's where that first comment popped up from, btw.

    Nice diary.

    At least half the future I've been expecting hasn't gotten here yet. Sigh.... (Yes, there's gender bias in my name; no, I wasn't thinking about it when I signed up. My apologies.)

    by serendipityisabitch on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 05:29:21 AM PDT

  •  I don't think the best way to go about it (5+ / 0-)

    is to tell people to feel they aren't welcome that they are being sinister in their lamentations.  

    Who ya gonna shoot wit dat homie, you'd rather blast an original instead of a phony, true macaroni, you don't even know me, and why does your gun say n****z only?

    by mim5677 on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 05:37:13 AM PDT

  •  mods profess false allegations for darker purpose? (5+ / 0-)
    What these individuals are professing is simply false and the allegation is, in my opinion, an intellectually cheap maneuver with a darker purpose.
    kinda kills the purpose of your diary, don't ya think?

    and the crazy just gets crazier.

    “You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.” Buckminster Fuller

    by pfiore8 on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 05:43:09 AM PDT

  •  I disagree with people all the time. But I get (3+ / 0-)

    excited when they come up with new and interesting ideas or ways to frame a debate. It certainly doesn't have to be my way, just effective.

    Hang in there. I live in the center of the ideological highway too. Not sure if it's because I am moderate though, or just a risk taker ;)

    Gentlemen, congratulations. You're everything we've come to expect from years of government training (Zed, MIB).

    by GreenMother on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 05:47:01 AM PDT

  •  I'm not sure I understand who you mean (4+ / 0-)

    by "moderates."  If you're talking about, say, the conservative side of the Party, well, they may be challenged by those farther left, but remember that in such a case the "moderates" have the site owner on their side. (And need I bring up his remarkable statement about "white privilege" again?)  

    If you're talking about those farther left, well, right now there seems to be too many of them around for easy containment or elimination.

    Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

    by corvo on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 06:06:02 AM PDT

  •  Please blockquote the comment that offended you. (0+ / 0-)

    Please be specific.   We can't address your complaint based on generalities.

    For example, I, a progressive, have also felt that there were commenters who were gunning for me when I was against FISAA.  They posted bars of Ivory Soap and called me a purist.  

    I think I've been vindicated in my opposition:  Fisaa law grants US 'heavy-calibre mass surveillance firepower: Brussels report says law poses 'grave risk' to data protection and citizens' rights

    What did they do to you?  What did they say?  Did they post images, too?

    Information is the currency of democracy. ~Thomas Jefferson

    by CIndyCasella on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 06:08:00 AM PDT

  •  You must have missed (20+ / 0-)

    the diary called "Yawn You Fucking Idiots" -aimed at people taking a more moderate stance than the "Dkos line" - and falsely accusing them of apathy - and much worse.

    You read that diary and tell me people treated one another with respect.

    I've never encountered that sort of vitriole outside of an I/P diary.

    Slight less "left" than the majority (and I"m pretty "left") and I was accused of being like George Bush.

    And more.  Like a Hitler follower.  And more.

    And by the way, accusing people of having a "darker purpose" is not the way to win people over.  Nor is it "disagreeing respectfully".

    This is a new thing I've encountered here.  I've been here nine years.  Never have I seen this sort of nastiness.

    I'm not even a moderate, and I've been treated like shit for the past month.

    So if people are complaining now, people who haven't complained about it in the past (except I/P, which I have meta'd about), perhaps YOU need to treat us with more respect and not accuse us of complaining for some darker reason.

    It's real.

    Read it:  Yawn You Fucking Idiots

    Come back after that and tell me the "moderate" position was treated with respect and no one had a right to complain about how they were treated there.

    Change will not come if we wait for some other person or some other time. We are the ones we've been waiting for. We are the change that we seek. Barack Obama

    by delphine on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 06:10:35 AM PDT

    •  That was a hideous diary, but... (5+ / 0-)

      ...it doesn't support the idea that moderates aren't "welcome" in the greater community.

      There's a set of factions that try to use bullying tactics. They've found a little drainage culvert on the right side of the property line where they can thrive like weeds and fight each other for water. That doesn't mean more reasonable voices aren't welcome to put some roots down here.

      Far as I'm concerned, peer pressure is only worth so much. If I decide to piss off, it's going to be because I find too many people here ridiculous rather than due to their attempts to make me feel unwelcome. (And believe me, nowadays everytime I punch DKos into the address bar I wonder why I'm bothering.)

      Non futuis apud Boston

      by kenlac on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 07:36:59 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I was personally (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mallyroyal, WB Reeves, Rei, FiredUpInCA

        insulted in that diary and in others.

        I wasn't the one with the snarky attacks - I was dumbfounded at some of the vitriole and over the top accusations.

        I was being reasonable.

        One side:  Snowden is a saint, don't criticize Snowden!  Don't be an apologist for Obama - he's destroying the 4th Amendment, he's just like Bush, OMG!!

        The other side:  Snowden is a traitor! (I was going to put "Obama is a saint" but that's something people made up to throw at people who don't thing Obama has betrayed us and is just like Bush.)

        Me:  Snowden made some mistakes.  Some of what he did is outside the definition of "whistleblowing".  Obama isn't perfect.  He's done a lot of things I disagree with, and that piss me off royally.  He's not like bush and doesn't deserve to be impeached.

        I think this is reasonable:  no one is perfect, no one is evil.  The NSA needs to stop what they're doing (I tried asking the "class" about some stuff but it was taken as some sort of cynical ploy).  Let's not decide the country is going to hell in a handbasket.

        Now you may disagree with it but it's not outside the realm of "reasonable".

        The reaction?  I"ve apparently been fooling everyone here for 9 years.  I'm a LINO.  I'm just like the guy who said "you're either with us or against us" (no sense of irony, that one), Obamabot, like a Hitler follower, authoritarian, willfully ignorant, oh, and either a paid shill or part of an unpaid organized cabal of folks who want to hijack every Snowden diary by posting comments about Snowden.  

        Just ridiculous.  Tell me my position is extreme and that it deserves this vitriole.

        Change will not come if we wait for some other person or some other time. We are the ones we've been waiting for. We are the change that we seek. Barack Obama

        by delphine on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 10:58:25 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  No, it doesn't deserve it. (0+ / 0-)

          I'll not deny people act like dicks day in and day out (hell, minute to minute at times), but what I'm saying is that faction of jerks doesn't equal the entire community pulling in the welcome mat.

          I'd like it as much as anyone if Kos decided he'd had enough of all this and started getting serous about moderation. But that doesn't appear to be his POV, so for the foreseeable future it's just going to continue to be what it is. DKos is going to be a place where everyone gets to throw elbows at everyone else, and only the most egregious behavior is going to get any sanctions. Junior high school playground behavior is, apparently, going to remain within bounds.

          What we have is a very vociferous but small group of people who are going to continue to behave as though their own diaries (at best), or even the entire site (at worst) are/is akin to a private clubhouse. It's not going to change unless Kos decides it's going to change, and he doesn't seem to be inclined to change it. But in the meantime he continues to allow almost anyone to create a user name and write diaries at will, whether they be 'bots, 'baggers, or something in between, or even something entirely outside of that idiotic false dichotomy. The fact that he continues to allow the jerks to have a little spotlight rectangle to the right baffles me, but like I said, it is what it is.

          Non futuis apud Boston

          by kenlac on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 12:46:35 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I think you may (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Rei, FiredUpInCA

            want to read that diary and comments.  The majority of nasty comments were not coming from any sort of fringe element or small group.

            They were coming from the majority view.  I was one of only a few who were targeted - people I don't know and who don't necessarily hold the same opinion as I do.

            In fact, there were like 3 or 4 of "us" and we were accused of trying to shut down the discussion.

            The diary was recc'd up like crazy.  

            Well known writer, well known people commenting, everyone thinking it's peachy to go after people like that.  

            It's a new phenomenon, but by no means was it just a few people being bullies.

            Change will not come if we wait for some other person or some other time. We are the ones we've been waiting for. We are the change that we seek. Barack Obama

            by delphine on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 01:13:45 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  You're dead wrong on one thing: they aren't the (4+ / 0-)

      majority. They are the very loud, very well-organized (on this site), fringe.

      I was gonna listen to that, but then, um, I just carried on living my life. - Aldous Snow

      by GoGoGoEverton on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 08:21:47 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Depends on who you (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        GoGoGoEverton, FiredUpInCA

        are talking about.

        I believe you have it confused.

        The majority (the ones whining about "not being allowed") are whining that they are not allowed to criticize Obama.

        Check it out.  You'll see.

        The ones saying they're "not allowed" are the ones bashing Obama, and anyone who doesn't agree is an "obamabot" or whatever whose very existence on the thread threatens their ability to "express themselves" or some such nonsense.

        Not sure how you'd search, but I'll see if I can find some examples.

        So it IS the majority who is complaining.

        Change will not come if we wait for some other person or some other time. We are the ones we've been waiting for. We are the change that we seek. Barack Obama

        by delphine on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 09:31:24 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Oh and by the way (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        GoGoGoEverton

        I'm in the 'minority' and I am not aware if any sort of "organization" .  We happen to disagree with the majority but we don't necessarily agree with each other.  It's a matter of degree.

        Lots of rabid attacks for not much distance.

        Change will not come if we wait for some other person or some other time. We are the ones we've been waiting for. We are the change that we seek. Barack Obama

        by delphine on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 09:44:06 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  delphine... (0+ / 0-)

      I remember that the diary that you speak of...disagree with its premise, but it doesn't mean the entire site is anti-moderate or any moderate can't participate.

      Its diverse, there are those that will have those extreme views but to frame the site as a place where moderates can't participate is used, by some, as a simple reason to dismiss it as some sort of "crazy nest" where all reason is lost...and it isn't.

      Wonders are many, but none so wonderful as man.

      by Morgan Sandlin on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 09:31:53 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Morgan (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Catte Nappe, FiredUpInCA

        as long as people insist on excusing and even supporting the kind of behavior that Delphine describes things are only going to get worse around here. Political labels are irrelevant on this point.

        People need to speak out against this behavior, particularly when it emanates from sources on their side of the political fence.

        Nothing human is alien to me.

        by WB Reeves on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 12:47:50 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I'm not sure what a moderate is but on this site (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    native, phenry, quill

    it usually comes down to those who defend the site's mission, electing democrats.  That seems like a moderate solution to today's problems to me.  And based on that, moderates seem to rule the roost  
    I don't know, is a moderate sort of like antiwar, but not antiwar?  I saw an example of being for the NSA spying but wanting more controls on it.  I guess that might be moderate. It's hard to know without specifics on each individual issue.

    "America is the Terror State. The Global War OF Terror is a diabolical instrument of Worldwide conquest."

    by BigAlinWashSt on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 06:16:47 AM PDT

  •  I consider myself a liberal. I've been called (21+ / 0-)

    everything from a conservadem to a good German to an idiot who doesn't understand what's REALLY going on.  I assume that people who engage in name-calling aren't as certain of their positions as they claim to be and ignore them. I figure I was a DFH before most of them were born, a feminist when when we were all hairy lesbian man-haters, an active Democrat all my life and it's been 10 years since I sat out a single election because the water district dude is as important as the President in my neck of the woods.  

    I don't see Snowden as heroic and I don't think he's a traitor.  He may a libertarian plant, a concerned citizen, or a dupe.  What matters is taking a hard look at the illusion of safety the country demanded after 9/11.  I think drones are nothing more than the newest technology for killing, the latest in a long line of weapons, like moving from musket to repeating rifles to machine guns.  I'm more interested in talking about giving peace a chance than I am in refighting battles about technological improvements in the instruments of death.  

    I'll worry about chained CPI when it's in written form in a bill, in the meantime I'd prefer to read diaries about the actual poverty of actual seniors and those on disability and how to build a movement to raise the base benefit levels.  If that includes chaining CPI for those who use SS payments to upgrade the kind of car they drive, fine with me.  In the last 6 years there was ZERO increase in COLA twice.  That hurts, but at my benefit level it meant needing to earn $617 a month, not $600.  With the cost of gas and groceries it's getting closer to $725.  I'm able to do that some months.  Others it's a question of what gets left out.  I'm luckier than most.  That's what we need to look at IMO.

    All in all I'm happy with President Obama's successes and achievements.  I'd be happier if blind racism wasn't so much in play politically.  I'd be less worried if the racists weren't controlling the Republican Party so completely.  I see this is a time of major transition, and the establishment gets viciously defensive as it loses power.  That ends, a new balance replaces it and that's when we need to learn to keep fighting for what we want.  

    I prefer our FP focusing on the death throes of old ideas.  We need some stark reminders of what happens when we become less involved of day to day politics.  Reaganomics slipped past most liberals as a silly slogan.  Now it's our system.  Let's not blow it again.  

    I'm not looking for a love that will lift me up and carry me away. A love that will stroll alongside and make a few amusing comments will suffice.

    by I love OCD on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 06:17:23 AM PDT

    •  I've been an Obama hater and an Obama lickspittle (7+ / 0-)

      at least, if you listen to people here. I remember when all you needed to do to make the rec list was post a diary that consisted of literally nothing but giant adulatory photos of Barack Obama. Now all you need to do to make the rec list is post a diary that says that Edward Snowden is a hero and the United States is the most evil country in the world. I've gotten HRs for standing against both prevailing orthodoxies--and let me tell you, it's a weird, weird feeling when the only support you receive is from usernames whose every utterance used to turn your stomach. I'm not sure how I feel about that, but I suppose it makes me as much of a "moderate" as anyone on this site, and I'm one who tends to believe that the only thing in the middle of the road is a yellow stripe and a dead possum.

      All I know is that brief window of time around spring 2009 after the substance-free adulation had died down but before the libertoonian conspiracy theories had started up feels like the Golden Age of Daily Kos now. If only we could get back to those halcyon days.

    •  So sometimes WE are the moderates (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Nada Lemming, TiaRachel, quill

      You would be more likely to turn Social Security into a welfare program taking some of the funding away from the middle class and directing it to the poor.   Now me, I see that as a con by the corporatists to rob from the middle class while distracting you with a small increase for the poor and holding those who are truly wealthy harmless.  

      •  Seriously? I would take SS from the (0+ / 0-)

        middle class and give it to the poor?  Cool!  Can I gut defense spending and trash the Patriot Act too?  

        I'm actually a really radical woman with more years lived than I ever hoped to manage who has learned the hard way that change comes slowly to human beings, and forcing others to admit I'm right and they're dumb is not a good way to get what I want.  

        I'm not looking for a love that will lift me up and carry me away. A love that will stroll alongside and make a few amusing comments will suffice.

        by I love OCD on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 12:59:31 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I don't even consider myself a moderate. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    phenry, thestructureguy, Be Skeptical

    I'm a liberal Democrat. Always have been, and I don't dare express all my political views here.

    A recent example is the hijack of this site by the "Zimmerman was a racist murderer who hunted down a kid and executed him for being black" clique. That's not what happened, and having everyone who disagreed with it buried under HRs does no service for this site or for Democrats.

    You want more examples? You're not going to get them.  I find it depressing being attacked by a virtual lynch mob.

    GOP: Bankers, billionaires, suckers, and dupes.

    by gzodik on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 06:24:49 AM PDT

    •  There are lots of people here (3+ / 0-)

      who believe, with good reason, that a slightly less sinister version of this is precisely what happened, and view, with good reason, anyone who rejects this view, not partly but totally--i.e. someone who believes that Z isn't a racist and that the shooting was justified--as themselves a racist. And they'll HR, with good reason, anyone who asserts such a view. They're not an HR lynch mob. They're people of color who've lived such racism their whole lives, and their liberal friends, and they're frankly sick of this racist enabling shit.

      "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

      by kovie on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 06:55:15 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Great diary. Both sides like to whine (8+ / 0-)

    I belong on the left end of the spectrum, but I admit "we" do this too. See OPOL's recent "No place for principled lefties" whinefest in response to Kos' pronouncement that he didn't give a damn about Snowden and considered the outrage over the NSA revelations the "height of white privilege".

    The dynamic, as I see it, is always like this: some proponent of a particular group sees their group at the losing end of a debate and responds by casting themselves as the persecuted underdog, in hopes of creating a perception that makes it difficult for the other side to press their point. It isn't even restricted to lefties vs. moderates - it's just particularly pervasive there. But that legendary "writers strike" some PUMAs/Hillary supporters tried to organize during the 2008 primaries when the site majority had congealed behind Obama was a textbook example.

    And of course conservatives have really developed defensive whining into an art form. Anytime conservatives get caught with something and called out for it, they respond by howling about the alleged liberal media bias.

    PS, loved the dog!

    "I understand, Mr. Spock. The glory of creation is in its infinite diversity."

    by brainwave on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 06:25:13 AM PDT

  •  First off, thanks for the diary. (6+ / 0-)

    What I take from it is that we should all just put on our big people pants and discuss contentious issues as adults, open to the possibility of receiving new insights and having our own perspectives change.

    Not sure your self-identification as a "moderate" is at all useful in assessing what makes Morgan Sandlin tick. Upthread, a self-identified "liberal" essentially argues "Love It Or Leave It" and dismisses U.S. bullying in the foreign relations arena with a cavalier shit-happens attitude.

    In my view, the labels are meaningless. They're the coat we put on to ward off the elements, but they don't reflect who we actually are. THAT is determined by where we stand on the issues of the day.

    Anyway, thanks for the diary. (But lose the pup. That photo's a transparently manipulative propaganda tool. Shame on her for agreeing to be exploited in this fashion.)

     

  •  The term "moderate" is more (8+ / 0-)

    a descriptor than a category. There could be moderate communists or moderate drinkers.

    In terms of dialogue or debate, I'd say a moderate person would respect people who hold a contrary opinion, at least to the extent of considering their point of view, and being polite to them. Not always easy to do, especially if you are talking with someone you consider to be an ill-intentioned idiot. But it is possible to respect a person's dignity, while strongly opposing their point of view.

    To be willing to alter one's own perspective, after carefully considering an opponent's perspective, is to be moderate. Which by the way, is not always a virtue.
    .

  •  On the internet no one knows you're a moderate dog (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Nada Lemming

    There are three things (well, more than three things, but these are the biggies IMO) that aren't tolerated here, for good reason, and deserve to be roundly condemned, without such condemnation being "persecution":

    1 - Spreading RW propaganda, i.e. lies

    2 - Otherwise lying, distorting, or making claims you can't or won't back up

    3 - Being a dick, i.e. refusing to discuss and argue with people you disagree with in a civil manner without getting personal and mean

    So, yes, if you argue in favor of privatizing Social Security, you're going to get slammed, and deservedly so, but it's a RW position that simply cannot work, and goes against everything the Democratic party has traditionally stood for.

    And if you try to back this up with bad data, or with no data, you're going to get slammed again, and deservedly so, because this is a reality-based place.

    And if you insult the people who slam you, you're going to get slammed yet again, and deservedly so, because while things get heated here, we don't tolerate assholes, and let them know it.

    There are obviously positions for which rule #1 doesn't apply, but there are no positions for which the other two don't apply.

    Don't lie.

    Don't be a dick.

    And god help you if you try to sell us on GOP policy and ideas.

    "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

    by kovie on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 07:09:44 AM PDT

  •  Moderates Are Welcome (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    freakofsociety, Garrett

    How are we going to change their minds if we run them all off?!

  •  Well... (6+ / 0-)

    the site has gotten to the point where conspiracy theories are not only tolerated in the diaries, but recommended and even posted by front-pagers (I'm referring to LL and the Voice of America business from yesterday - ask the ACLU if that's part of a devious conspiracy). I suspect that's why moderate liberals don't feel welcome. If your hair is not on fire all the time and if you don't immediately agree with all of the wildest accusations, and you post any sort of pushback, you get attacked. No one is interested in a rational discussion, just flame throwing.

    •  The VOA "propaganda" debate (0+ / 0-)

      That has been one of the clearest recent illustrations of the divisions. The legislation itself is quite short and easily understandable. Some didn't want to read it, or even read a straightforward synopsis of what it does (and doesn't) do. Never mind that the ACLU lauds it as an overdue step in transparency about what our government is saying to the world in our name. Didn't matter - it was deemed an open door to dark and dangerous practices.

      Yesterday's Non Sequitur comic described the "discussions" to a T.

      “Texas is a so-called red state, but you’ve got 10 million Democrats here in Texas. And …, there are a whole lot of people here in Texas who need us, and who need us to fight for them.” President Obama

      by Catte Nappe on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 09:09:34 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Moderate is another ruined word, yes? I mean, (5+ / 0-)

    I think of myself as a moderate in terms of how I try to react to people, events, ideas.  A calm, civil tone of discussion is my moderation; it's my goal (from which I might stray when confronted with some injustice or horror).  

    When it comes to the use of moderate to describe a place near the middle of a left-right spectrum, I think the word loses meaning, as the full spectrum is not considered, but just the range of options we discuss--this is commonly called the Overton Window.  Democratic centrism especially has been harmful in that it has allowed the political slide to the right in recent decades.  

    Political moderation in relative terms is absolutely not called for at this point in history, but people who feel that their moderate nature in their responses & tone is in some way the same thing as their desire to be near what they feel is The Middle or the political center will tend--just my opinion--to nervously shy away from the necessarily difficult moral, principled stands that we are obligated to take against the de-evolution of the conservative agenda.  If being a moderate means one is able to engage the agents of destruction in the sort of conversation that can persuade them away from it, that is super useful.  But, if being a moderate means someone is hesitant to recognize that those on the right are agents of destruction in the first place--because that seems disrespectful--that is super unhelpful.  

    So, I agree that moderation has a place here, & that it makes this place better, when it understands what it truly is.  And principled, fact-based middle positions are good, too.  But corporate apologism masquerading as centrism needs to be recognized, and calmly, civilly, respectfully dismantled.

    It's time to start letting sleeping dinosaurs lie, lest we join them in extinction by our consumption of them.

    by Leftcandid on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 07:18:31 AM PDT

  •  I'm moderate on some issues... (5+ / 0-)

    way out on the left on others.

    Been here since circa 2004. So I'm either the party guest who won't go home or feel welcome here.

    I'll admit to some annoyance when I express one of my moderate views and get my face bitten off, but I'm very thick-skinned and don't lose sleep or write agonized diaries expressing my hurt feelings.

    One only need look across the aisle to see the damage fidelity to party purity can do to a party (and I encourage them to keep doing what they're doing).

    To the pure moderates here (whatever that is), I'd encourage you to stick around. You must list a little left else you'd have no interest in being here to begin with. Prepare for vigorous debate and to meet the occasional jerk. It's really not a big deal. You bring more to the table than you may realize.

  •  I'd welcome more anti-butthurt diaries like this. (2+ / 0-)

    The relentless whinging of faction members with delicate hairs across their tender asses is counterproductive tedium.

    Non futuis apud Boston

    by kenlac on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 07:29:59 AM PDT

  •  How is liberal different from moderate? (0+ / 0-)

    At least in American politics, there have been liberal and conservative Democrats and Republicans, and to me anyway, those were always more or less synonymous with moderate Democrats and Republicans.

    Well, I suppose now that I think about it, you can also have “moderate conservatives”, which confuses things a bit. But at least for me, the term “moderate liberal” wouldn't work, it would simply be redundant.

    In fact, “moderate conservative” and “liberal conservative” sound about the same to me, and they are both different from “conservative moderate” and “conservative liberal”.

    In fact, both “conservative liberal” and “moderate liberal” sound the oddest to me, the one being a contradiction while the other is redundant.

  •  Sometimes the truth "stings" a bit. (0+ / 0-)
  •  this moderate hasn't been participating that (8+ / 0-)

    much here because of the fights. tired of it.

    i frequent other blogs nowadays. mostly local blogs for my region and others that i think are ripe.

    i'll be back from time to time i guess. the tone and general attitude here is jumping the sharknado with firecrackers shooting out your butts.

    have fun with that. i'll be spending my time on blogs that are actually interested in helping the democratic party field candidates to win. i am focused on my state, local and national elections more than anything these days.

    i suggest more should do the same. rather than fight each other day and night, which many here do daily, i am helping out with local elections and voter registration. i think we are going to punch texas republicans in the nose at the ballet box.

    i'll still be around but you guys can duke it out among yourselves. i'll just say your tactics aren't going to win you much power in my opinion. without power, you cannot change much. the powerful have it and you have little chance of doing anything about it with the tactics you pursue. well that's my opinion anyways.

    so to recap i don't think shrinking our party according to a strict ideological benchmark is a winning strategy and i haven't seen much of anything else besides that from the Obama Sux crowd. To get progressive legislation, we have to have more Dems in congress, not less. The New Deal, The Great Society were passed with overwhelming Democratic majorities. Which we didn't have. So all this arguing is pointless. Without those majorities our bickering over the Democratic party is just hand waving. It's not productive in the ways we need.

    Flame away. I know I deserve it. But, remember I respect your opinions, even when I am dick about it.

    -You want to change the system, run for office.

    by Deep Texan on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 07:42:30 AM PDT

    •  What use is growing the Democratic Party (3+ / 0-)

      if there's no ideological benchmark at all?

      i don't think shrinking our party according to a strict ideological benchmark is a winning strategy

      When you triangulate everything, you can't even roll downhill...

      by PhilJD on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 07:52:49 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  it's that kind of hyperbole that gets you nowhere (11+ / 0-)

        while i am looking into specific regions of who i can support. who is running and what the landscape is. where my money will be best spent? who has a chance at winning? you guys are tearing down candidates. you are tearing down our party. you deal in hyperbole in every other comment. you are not serious players and will probably stay that way. you don't understand the game or how to gain power.

        down here my candidates are a lot more conservative. however, they will vote with us on more issues than not.

        remember the New Deal and the Great Society were created by congress, controlled by more Dems than what we have now.

        so using what has worked in the past as a guide for the future success seems like a better tactic.

        calling me authoritarian or whatever has been going on the past month or so isn't helpful. so have fun with that guys. you can try your way and i can try mine. i just don't think you are going to get anywhere with your strategy. i recognize the steep hill we are against and plan my strategy accordingly. i think your side has given up really. and the nice warm blanket of righteousness is cover for your failure. btw, if you did support our candidates and didn't tear us down daily, even those candidates you hate, we might just get the super majority required to get progressive legislation passed. history is my guide. instead of looking through the ideological lens, you need to understand what has worked before.

        -You want to change the system, run for office.

        by Deep Texan on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 08:04:09 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  A cute dog. Now, to the meat (5+ / 0-)

    The "moderates aren't welcome" is just the latest in a set of pre-ordained spin moves from the hippie punching crowd.  

    You see, we on the left had to listen to being told that were actually closet republicans when we accused Obama of trampling civil rights back during the first term, when Obama refused to close Gitmo and said through his representatives that he would not free people from Gitmo even if they were exonerated by a trial.   (Can't you hear the echoes even today?   'Purity Troll' 'Closet Republican' 'You don't understand how this works' "Give us proof that Obama is unwilling to Act!).   This finally died down with the Snowden revelations.

    And then, there were the attempts at fucking over the entire left on the Grand Bargain.   The same shit thrown at us -- "you don't understand!"  "Purity troll" "You hold the President to a standard that's unfair because he's black"  "Give us Proof that he'd cut social security" This last one finally died this term, when the Grand bargain was put on the table.

    And then, let's see, there was the decision not to empower labor on a variety of issues.....the big bank bailout with the bullshit TARP relief that actually has helped so few people as to be useless .... the brilliant sequester move that is currently hurting the economy .... the trial balloon on Summers ....the prosecution of whistleblowers .... the unprecedented use of national security privileges to prevent anyone from actually litigating issues .... the attempted gutting of EPA offshore drilling regulations (ended with Deepwater Horizon)....the continued prosecution of gays in the military for almost three years .....

    Each time, the folks on the left raised their voices about this, the Obama apparatchiks decided to launch attack, after attack, after attack.   And unfortunately, as time has gone on, most of what the hippies talked about proved out.

    And so now?   Now, the attacks comes in a new form.   First, the attacker wraps themselves in the flag of "moderation" and then says, "Sigh, there's no place for me here anymore."

    So, meh.   If the apparatchiks don't like it, they can, quite frankly, fuck themselves.   The "moderate" position is, for the most part, utter bullshit -- just another way to excuse the mistakes and excesses of the Obama administration, another spin, another attempt to sow discord and try to defeat any criticism of the Administration.

    Doubt me?   OK, let's take Snowden as an example.   The debate seems to be something like this:

    HIPPIE:   Man, the stuff that Snowden has revealed really suggests the administration does not respect the Fourth Amendment.   Keeping data like this on every person and every phone call without probable cause is pretty invasive.

    "MODERATE":   How can you listen to this guy!   He's a traitor who seeks asylum with China and Russia!  

    H:   Yeah, but look at what he's saying....he's saying that there are secret courts and secret laws that we can't know about.   How does this comport with the rule of law?

    M:  Don't tell me he respects the rule of law   He released classified documents.   He just hates the government.   Do you?   Do you hate the government?

    H:  No, but I don't like the fact that the government is doing things against the constitution.   That sounds alot like fascism, not democracy."

    M:   And here were are!   Fascism!   Ha!   There's no place for moderates like me at Daily Kos.

    Notice the brilliance of this spin:   no where do the moderates want to, you know, actually discuss the constitutional issues associated with the Snowden revelations.   Now, the debate is about moderation and Snowden's Character and Do the Hippies hate the government.  

    So, yeah, I guess the moderates need to stop whining about their moderation not being tolerated....because most of them aren't moderates, and most of them aren't preaching moderation except as a fig-leaf to hide reality.  

  •  Self described moderates (5+ / 0-)

    Exibiting the kind of butthurt you mention rarely are making moderate statements when they are slammed.

    Being pro Chained CPI is not moderate, it's far right wing.

    Trading your constitutional rights for the illusion of security is far right wing.

    Supporting Zimmerman is far right wing.

    Being pro NRA is far right wing.

    Being anti union is far right wing.

    The people crowing about persecution do so because they see these far right positions as moderate.  But this is a reality based community, and reality will rear its ugly head at times.  

    Bad things aren't bad! And anyway, there's mitigation!

    by Nada Lemming on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 07:54:04 AM PDT

  •  Words...labels....names.... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Catte Nappe, shaharazade

    all very slippery things. And yet, vested with so much power. When I've worked with anti bullying groups at the local elementary school, we redo that annoying little rhyme:

    Sticks and stones may break my bones
    But names will make me think I deserve it
    I don't think I'm very moderate at all. Pretty darn left on most scales and reluctant to compromise my values. I'd make a lousy politician.

    But I do try to be somewhat polite within the bounds of irresistible snark. Not always successfully. I figure, if I'm furious with someone's words, or perceived tone, I'm probably seeing something uncomfortably familiar in myself.

    Soooooo many comments that don't get posted. Maybe if I vented more, I'd be less cynical, snide and stressed. But because I have the authority of the pulpit IRL, its made me very, very careful of how I claim it and use it.

    Daily Kos would be a duller place if all commenters were like me. I don't think I'd enjoy it half so much.

    I have taken a full year of Law and Government Class and have determined that government and politics are my left ass cheek.-my 18 year old daughter

    by left rev on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 08:01:49 AM PDT

  •  This diary has sparked some mostly respectful (3+ / 0-)

    discussion (except for the usual canards and provocations)
    and I thank you for it.

    As for people who describe themselves as "moderates," I'm increasingly seeing them as potential allies. After you talk to the narrow-minded defenders of the status quo, versus the crusading, know-it-all left who wind up pissing off more people than gaining support and allies, and wind up handing elections to the right wing, moderates can be quite refreshing and even the most rational.

    "They come, they come To build a wall between us We know they won't win."--Crowded House, "Don't Dream It's Over."

    by Wildthumb on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 08:04:45 AM PDT

  •  Dkos loves moderates, in moderation. (0+ / 0-)

    Living the austerity dream.

    by jwinIL14 on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 08:13:06 AM PDT

  •  To me, "moderate" is a dirty word (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TiaRachel, shaharazade

    in a country that has overall been going in the wrong direction for many years and continues to do so.

    Average incomes are falling, the U.S. is creating far fewer opportunities for its young people, and it's decreasing security for its non-young.  

    I have no interest in personally offending you, yet I cannot help but ask: Why would anyone be a "moderate" during times when both major political parties have presided over a decline in average living standards (though of course Republicans are fast-tracking the process x 10)?

    From my perspective, and I hope I'm communicating this with an even-handed tone, anyone calling themselves a "moderate" either doesn't care about the country as a whole or is not capable of discerning the overall direction in which the country has been heading.

    •  I'm a 'moderate', and you're dead wrong about me. (5+ / 0-)

      Moderate does not equal centrist--does not equal 'triangulator', and does not equal sellout, shill, apologist or anything like that.

      It's a bit like independent, and, according to the user of the term, actually espouses an (individually determined) set of principles and ideals that may not always conform to stringent left-wing or right-wing ideologies.

      Someone who is pro-choice, yet espouses the notion of 'safe, legal and rare', for example, might be moderate.

      Someone who recognizes that there is waste in government and espouses some old-school conserative economic ideals, while recognizing that capitalism has run amok, may be a moderate.

      •  Moderate is closer to centrist vs. independent (0+ / 0-)

        which you basically say yourself:

        "ideals that may not always conform to stringent left-wing or right-wing ideologies."

        That suggests that by staying away from either fringe and remaining in the middle, you're a moderate.

        To me that also suggests you don't understand that the country is systemically marching in the wrong direction, whether following the right wing fringe of the Republicans or the "moderate" middle of the Democratic leadership.

        If you could answer the question of how we're going to "moderate" our way out of declining living standards for the vast majority under both parties, I'll join you as a fellow moderate.

        Until then, and I'm sorry if it's rude to say so, you seem to support a moderate consensus which is harming American opportunity and security.

        •  You're confusing political centrism with (0+ / 0-)

          'moderate' as an ideology in itself.  If I moved to the center in order to placate a certain side and reach consensus, that would be centrism.  If my ideological preferences (on an individual topic) happen to align somewhere on the gamut between extremes, that would be characterized as moderate.

          You prove my point by being (seemingly) unable to disentangle ideological moderation with 'democratic leadership'.  One CAN be a yellow dog dem and still be moderate.

          This nonsense about 'not understanding the country is going in the wrong direction' because people may not adhere to YOUR line is somewhere between insulting and utterly hilarious--perhaps a bit of both.  In any case, it's pretty darn wrong.

          •  If you aren't extremist or radical in some sense (0+ / 0-)

            in response to a political consensus in favor of depressing living standards for the majority, then you're not successfully tracking or opposing this consensus.

            Personally I don't see how "moderation" is going to reverse the trend, which is impoverishing tens of millions in this country as well as in Europe. Voting straight ticket Dem, a la yellow dogs, obviously isn't remotely sufficient.

            As a young person who's struggled through this country's job market the past 5 yrs. and watched opportunity shrink significantly even for people 5-10 years younger, i've told my father what his being "a moderate" means to me:

            Either you're not tracking the systemic causes of the decline, you're indifferent to it b/c you yourself are living comfortably and don't wish to shake things up, or both.

            That's a harsh assessment, but reality sometimes demands it. And being based in reality is central to the community here as I understand it. Whitewashing the situation b/c people post diaries with a pic of their dog is less central, at least on my understanding.

            •  I was willing to give you a shot--but you've (0+ / 0-)

              demonstrated that you don't understand what 'moderate' means at all.  Have you ever given your dad a chance to explain his viewpoint, or do you just assume you know where he's coming from through your very singular political lens?

              As for me, as an academic archaeologist who had been living at home and looking for work for 2 years, I'm not living some sort of cushy life you seem to ascribe to anyone who doesn't share your narrow political viewpoint.

              Radicalism is not the answer to everything.  

              Perhaps you should take some time to study a few things before assuming that you're the only person living in the world of 'reality' and that everyone who's not you is a naive sheep.

            •  and anyway, 'moderate' also doesn't necessarily (0+ / 0-)

              mean that you're moderate about ALL causes.  I have some that I'm very passionate about and strongly active, some that I am pragmatic about, some that I don't care about.  Politics should, be as much about individual thinking as about group dynamics.  Here, if you don't subscribe to the groupthink, you sometimes get run out of town.

              •  You're talking about being an independent again (0+ / 0-)

                and celebrating your own intellectual independence for some unknown reason. Oh well.

                If I can leave you with a thought - moderate has to be opposed to radical if the term is to mean anything.

                I submit that if you're not radicalized by massively depressed living standards for hundreds of millions across the US and Europe whichever political party is in power, then perhaps you're biased against being a political radical.

                If not now, when?

                •  why are you so insistent on the term 'radical' (0+ / 0-)

                  anyway?  What does it do for you?   More importantly, why are you so insecure with your political stance that you feel the need to condescend to those who may not espouse your terminology?

                  I'm a moderate.  I'm proud of it.  I don't disdain you for not considering yourself one--that's fine.  And by 'independent', why yes--I do celebrate my own intellectual independence--AS WELL AS EVERYBODY ELSE'S.  Isn't that what this country--no, this world--is supposed to be about?  Freedom of thought?  Your disdain for that intrigues me.

                  But you are a self-described 'radical', and according to you, those who don't embrace your world view are stodgy sheep who are duped by the 'system'.

                  It seems to me that you feel highly threatened that your own 'radicalism' is pretty tenuous  if it isn't bolstered by everyone you encounter.  I'd suggest you work on that.

                  Enjoy your day :)

                  •  'considering yourself one' i meant a political (0+ / 0-)

                    radical, obviously--not a moderate.  (which is me :)

                  •  At this point (0+ / 0-)

                    I'm not sure you want "moderate" to mean anything in particular, and appear more interested in calling people you disagree with 'presumptuous' than actually discussing politics.

                    I don't believe I'm intellectually threatened by moderates, I just think they're not really politically with it. You may well be a brilliant archeologist. My father is an absolutely brilliant musician.

                    The fact remains that a preference for tinkering around the edges, in a "moderate" fashion, with a political and economic system that is leaving hundreds of millions in worse shape, across continents, strikes me as not really understanding or focusing on the problems we face.

                    I could be wrong of course, but that's my opinion nonetheless.

                    Another route for appreciating the inferiority of being a political "moderate" in 2013, is that there is currently only one region on the planet where people's lives, on average, are actually improving - Latin America. Political "moderates," on any understanding of "moderate," cannot make sense of these countries' unique success, given that they are radically different from the US. They are, to scare a moderate, on the far fringe of the left wing.

                    To me, this suggests that conditions are ripe for reconsidering identifying as a "moderate". I ask again -- if not now, when?

                    •  what is your focus on 'intellectualism' (0+ / 0-)

                      about?  It's odd.  I mentioned archaeology, in any case, simply to suggest the 'yeah--I get the whole broke thing too'--not as some sort of esoteric 'better than you' concept.  Where you got that from is  unclear.

                      Anyway, you keep recycling this 'moderate = immobile' mantra.  I'm not sure why, and where you came upon this
                      definition.  But if that's your lens, you're welcome to enjoy it--after all, all anyone here is doing is posting on an internet forum.  It's the actions that count.

                      One can quite easily be 'moderate' and fight for change.  Why you don't see that is...well....you have your reasons.

                      •  You can fight for "moderate" change (0+ / 0-)

                        and still be a moderate. Other more radical kinds of change, not so much.

                        I'm saying the former is likely very inadequate given the size and scope of the problems faced by this country and a plethora of others.

                        I'm not sure moderates really get this.

                        •  you're still stuck in your own definition of (0+ / 0-)

                          moderate.  You see it as a position of inaction and compromise.  No--that's 'centrism'.  I'm using it to describe actual ideological beliefs that do not necessarily subscribe to 'liberal' or 'conservative' frameworks, but represent a direction I see as 'forward'.

                          In other words--the country does not HAVE to be 'liberal' or 'conservative'.  In subscribing to one camp or another, identity of thought gets lost--but it is this creativity (and wlilingness to entertain a range of ideas) that moves things forward.

                          I wonder what you actually mean when you refer to yourself as 'radical', though.  Radical what?  

                          •  A political radical (0+ / 0-)

                            someone who subscribes to a foundational, non-mainstream critique of the economic and political systems that are lowering standards of living for hundreds of millions in the developed world.

                            Since you're a moderate, your notion of "forward" is necessarily incremental, therefore likely shallow, therefore certainly inadequate for life in 2013.

                            Are you familiar with Latin America, its radical political movements, and its record of success? If so, what is your explanation for this? I don't see that political moderates compare favorably, or really have had any record of success whatsoever the past 15 yrs.

                            Being a moderate is fine when the status quo requires mostly minor adjustments. Now is not such a time. That's what moderates are missing.

                          •  I can't comment on Latin America since it isn't (0+ / 0-)

                            my area of expertise.  These things are case by case, anyway.

                            But in any case, after 6 posts or so, you still don't get this idea of moderatism.  It is not 'Centrism', in which one plays to balance out the left and the right in the spirit of political compromise.  I would agree that that contributes to stagnation.  No, moderatism is different--it espouses a set of ideologies that does not adhere to stock left or right agendas BUT IS FORWARD THINKING IN ITSELF. (It recognizes, in effect, that strict adherence to an ideological spectrum is a large part of the problem--because it is ideology driven rather than result driven.)

                            It is, in effect, a la carte--and by addressing specific issues independently, rather than as a political slate, lends itself to more effective deconstruction and resolution of issues.

                            See--one can be moderate and, say, favor the prosecution of banks.  One can be moderate and favor heavy restrictions on gun-use.  One can be moderate and recognize that the educational system has plummeted and needs to be completely restructured.  It's common sense, really.

                          •  Can one be a political moderate and favor (0+ / 0-)

                            nationalizing the banks or energy companies?

                            No, that's a radical position in 2013 America, yet that's far preferable to the status quo, as the record of Latin America's leftist bloc shows.

                            Ergo the strictures of being a political moderate are entirely unacceptable, or at least should be.

  •  I love your dog (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Morgan Sandlin, shaharazade

    But I love my wife and daughter more.

    I love your garden too, and my daughter the future farmer, would love it too.

    400ppm : what about my daughter's future?

    by koNko on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 08:24:47 AM PDT

  •  I wish everyone would stop with (0+ / 0-)

    these kinds of blogs and stop reccing these blog onto the rec list.

    That's what I wish.

  •  That depends (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    shaharazade

    on a couple of things:

    1)  How do you define "moderate".  I have a step-brother who describes himself as moderate ... and described Reagan the same way.  (I am still a pinko hippy to him).

    2)  How seriously you take some comments.  I can think of a few regular commenters here whose words I have to take with a ton of salt.

    I am not religious, and did NOT say I enjoyed sects.

    by trumpeter on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 08:29:42 AM PDT

  •  Thank you for this! I've been arguing that the (3+ / 0-)

    only way progressives are going to grow their numbers is by both getting those that don't vote to come over to our side and help other progressives win and the other way is to persuade moderates and centrists to come over to our side.  See I think most moderates are deep down progressives I just don't think they want to adhere to any label.  I've been able to get moderate Democratic voters like my mom and her sisters to get behind progressive candidates.  They were going to hold their noses and vote for Specter in the 2010 PA-Sen primary but I was able to convince them Sestak was the better candidate and helped him win his party's nominee.

    Funny Stuff at http://www.funnyordie.com/oresmas

    by poopdogcomedy on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 08:32:24 AM PDT

    •  Great comment poopdogcomedy... (2+ / 0-)

      And it truly is where I get my "bang for my buck" with this site.

      The exchange of ideas, the learning about issues, new approaches to old problems, identifying where my energy is best spent...those are why I come here.

      And I have no problem doing that, its there for the taking, and it effects change in my real world.

      My husband, retired Navy Captain, retired senior corporate individual, is appalled by what the right is doing, and much of that comes from discussion of issues I've become interested in on this site.

      We have friends who now view the Republican party as something they simply can't be associated with and they look to the Democratic Party for their choices because that's where the reason is right now.

      ...and I'm still evolving, with lively discussion and interesting conversations here.

      It happens and its a positive for Progressives.

      Wonders are many, but none so wonderful as man.

      by Morgan Sandlin on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 09:43:00 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  These Republicans (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Morgan Sandlin

        you know who now look to the Democratic party for their choices are they moderates? Or are they right wing conservatives who cannot take the theocratic maniac's who control and make up the Republican Party? I think rather then party affiliation or loyalty, 'moderate' pertains to issues and policy and even direction. Sorry to use the dreaded purist words, ideology, principles and values  but they do play a part in most people's political alliances and choices.

        Part of the problem with our broken electoral system is that no matter where you self identify on the political spectrum both party's offer nothing of substance or value other then we're not them. I'm a lifelong Democratic voter an an active county Democratic member. I think by gaining some sane disgruntled Republican's support by implementing right wing policies and agenda and calling them moderate, we lose more voters then we gain. It certainly won't get us more better Dems.

        Once again it is cart before the horse partisan politics that keeps the status quo in place and the power in the hands of of those who have no interest in anything but staying in power and winning. Both sides once elected are only interested in amassing profits and more power for the anti-democratic, immoral corrupt entities that own and run both parties.              

  •  I see a split as (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Catte Nappe

    1. Those who will vote for the Democrat in the general even if they have disagreements and will accept incremental change on some issues.

    2.  Those who will vote third-party or not vote at all if they deem the Democrat isn't left enough or otherwise has policy issues they dislike.

    This is the most important difference to me.  Differences on issues is fine, but not voting for the Democrat against a Republican is just the wrong strategy.  That's what the primaries are for.  

  •  I'm certainly no moderate (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Morgan Sandlin, DeadHead, PhilJD

    but, from everything I've seen of you, you've been a pretty fair player on Dkos.

    I think you're peachy keen, baby. Stay. :)

    P.S. I may kidnap your dog. The adorableness is simply too much.

    If you want to argue in good faith, own your shit and stop with the distractions. -- Dallasdoc

    by Colorado is the Shiznit on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 08:39:49 AM PDT

  •  'moderate' is too simple a term (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Drocedus, Morgan Sandlin

    I'm pretty liberal, but I guess I'm a moderate when it comes to a few things, and have been called out:

    I'm a pragmatist, meaning I live in the real world and appreciate making progress, even if its not all of what I want.

    I get frustrated with single-issue voters - gay rights, abortion, environment, guns.  No one is pe- Manchin still votes for Harry Reid to be Majority Leader, which is, in the end, all that matters when you really think about it.

    I really don't have any sympathy for meta-whiners, someone hurt my feelings on a post, someone insulted me.  Its a frickin' blog, you don't know these people, if you can't stand the heat, etc.
    (And I'm a pretty empathetic and sensitive person in real life).

    I don't have much patience with millennials and their lack of personal responsibility.  

    Scissors cut paper/Paper covers rock/Rock crushes lizard/Lizard poisons Spock/Spock smashes scissors/Scissors decapitate lizard/Lizard eats paper/Paper disproves Spock/Rock breaks scissors/Spock vaporizes rock

    by jgkojak on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 08:41:20 AM PDT

  •  Eh, who gives a shit what you have to say? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Morgan Sandlin

    You put up a dog picture that cute and you get a rec from me, no matter what. (Oh, and my shitty subject line is my attempt to silence your moderateness...or something...)

    :)

    I can just about forgive the Brits for starting our revolutionary war and burning DC to the ground during the war of 1812 for giving us Led Zeppelin.

    by Pager on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 08:41:59 AM PDT

  •  Slightly OT quibble. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TiaRachel

    I absolutely despise the way the words 'moderate' and 'extreme' are used in our civil discourse to denote ranges along a one-dimensional ideological spectrum.  In normal poli-sci parlance these words denote whether or not someone advocates for and/or participates in political violence, period.  Using them to label policy positions is a way of proscribing acceptable thought and I'm not sure, but would guess that it goes back to red-baiting.  It is absolutely at odds with the enlightenment ethic of free-thought which democracy is founded on.

    By the way, I am an anarcho-syndicalist, a democratic-socialist, and a moderate.

  •  This site doesn't do nuance very well. (8+ / 0-)

    I'm very left on social issues, but not as much on others.  Perhaps even considered moderate on a few.

    I have seen one group in particular that screams at you if you're not as "off the charts" left as they are and will accuse you of not being a progressive at all if you don't agree with their views.  I've seen them do it often, and yeah, they are loud and even verbally hostile.  But this is a group that I don't see as particularly supportive of the Democratic Party.  They slam Dems every chance they get.

    Well, Dems need moderates, or else we're just going to end up marginalizing ourselves the way the repub party seems to be doing.

  •  Dear diarist: it's comments like (7+ / 0-)
    an intellectually cheap manoeuvre with a darker purpose
    and its 115+ recommendations that make us moderates often feel unwelcome here.  The fact that you seem oblivious to this is telling.
  •  Not welcome? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Punditus Maximus

    Somebody actually said you weren't welcome here because you call yourself a moderate.

    I don't believe you.  Who said you weren't welcome here because you are a moderate.

    Republicans: Taking the country back ... to the 19th century

    by yet another liberal on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 09:14:04 AM PDT

  •  Absent some particular content... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TiaRachel

    ...I do not understand what constitutes a "moderate".  And flashing that label is in contrast to what, because labels do tend of themselves to divide people when agreements and disagreements might be more complicated than what the label denotes.

    Where I tend to push back on folks is when they are:
    1. Making excuses for corruption by Democrats in governments--the current poster children for this is how Rahm Emanuel is governing Chicago by giving tax breaks to his buddies and closing schools and health clinics or the way that Max Baucus dictated the contents of Obamacare to the benefit of Wellpoint.

    2. Being dismissive of actions by Democrats that were roundly condemned of Republicans, just because we should "trust" Democrats.  This covers some of the defenses of NSA unconstitutional overreach or the President's assertion of unilateral authority to assasinate people (foreign or US citizens--both have been killed) on his own authority as commander-in-chief.  Just consider President Palin having this power and you will see the issue.  The Constitution put institutional checks and balances in the strucutre of US government for a reason.

    3. Labeling in general, especially dismissive labels like "emoprog", "Professional Left", "Obamabot", "firebagger", and so on.  Those are attempts to silence, not have a discussion, regardless of where they come from.

    4. "Moderate" positions that either support corporations at the expense of individuals or amount to a "me too" response to Republican framing.    When I push back on these, I try to argue the merits of the issue.

    BTW, my chihuahua appreciates the support by putting up a dog picture.  He feels that cats have subverted the internet.

    50 states, 210 media market, 435 Congressional Districts, 3080 counties, 192,480 precincts

    by TarheelDem on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 09:17:46 AM PDT

  •  This community is full of itself (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    yet another liberal

    There's what? Several hundred regular posters? Certainly no where close to the UID numbers. And it acts like it speaks uniformly for EVERYONE on the left, as if y'all are the sole arbiters of whose sufficiently progressive and who isn't, like your some monolithic cyberspace indicative of the far greater diversity present in center/left politics, that everybody has to listen to or else...excessive complaining shall commence in threads. 'Cause anyone with half-a-brain can see that when it comes to activism this community is asleep. Immigration? VRA? The list goes on and on and its because this community, like so many in the Internet age, lives according to the daily media flow. Ya' hate the mainstream media, but 9 times out of 10 sites like this are just responding to stories driven by others.

  •  As a self identified (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Morgan Sandlin

    semi-socialist, I can both relate and agree with this post.

    I don't agree with every policy point or position I read here. I sincerely doubt everyone agrees with every policy point or position I hold. Does that mean that DKos isn't welcoming of semi-socialists? Nope.

    Conflating giving your opinion a free ride with being welcoming is >enter your choice of offensive terms/phrases here<.

    fun times :)

    pictures of British dogs are always appropriate.

  •  Could You Elaborate on This? (11+ / 0-)
    What these individuals are professing is simply false and the allegation is, in my opinion, an intellectually cheap maneuver with a darker purpose.
    Why is it impossible for someone other than you to feel unwelcome?  Why are you accusing people who have a different experience than you of an "intellectually cheap maneuver with a darker purpose."

    Have you been told that you don't care about anyone but yourself?  Have you been called anti-worker?  Have you been called a DLC Third Way Neoliberal?  Have you been called a facist?  Have you been called a cheerleader?  A right wing plant?  Accused of spreading "right wing talking points?"

    It is entirely possible that you have experienced all those things.  And it's entirely possible that despite experiencing them, you felt welcome.  And there's nothing wrong with the fact that you interpret it that way, nothing at all.  But to tell people their interpretation is 'false,' or their feelings are 'wrong' etc.  I don't see how that's appropriate.

    Now before you misinterpret me: I don't feel unwelcome here.  I've heard everything on that list and much more.  And the funny thing is I'm not even a moderate.  I'm the most liberal person most people who know me know. :)

    But I don't feel unwelcome, because to me the people saying them don't really have any credibility on who I really am and what I really stand for.

    That doesn't mean I fault people who interpret the experience differently.

    And I certainly don't accuse them of having a 'darker purpose."

    Seriously?

    Too Folk For You. - Schmidting in the Punch Bowl - verb - Committing an unexpected and underhanded political act intended to "spoil the party."

    by TooFolkGR on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 09:39:51 AM PDT

    •  It is also (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      TooFolkGR, AdamSelene, lostboyjim

      Worlds colliding

      I am a working class person who knows what it is like to go without healthcare , when I meet a someone who has had healthcare coverage their whole life and does not understand the ACA , we will have different understandings of the law and its effects

      The same goes for corporate interests effecting the dem party etc

      I have to put a check on my own fears on this subject , one of them is witnessing republicans being forced out of their party , so they end up in the dem party , and they want to make our party GOP light , I really have to watch it and make sure I do not flame out on that , but I will not be putting up with any of that

      When Obama and dems do the opposite of what our platform calls for , dem voters have every right to flame , if the party members refuse to water down its own platform  , then party leaders support legislation in defiance of what the majority want , we have every right to call them "sell outs" etc , we are the ones that hold them accountable after all

      But then your LOYALTY is questioned ? I will never get that

      Great diary , a real thinker

      Beer Drinkers & Hell Raisers

      by Patango on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 10:39:55 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  The "darker purpose" (6+ / 0-)

      part was the real deal breaker here.

      It's the Supreme Court, stupid!

      by Radiowalla on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 11:29:36 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I'm Really Disappointed that the Diarist (0+ / 0-)

      Didn't respond to this.  My qustion was sincere.

      Too Folk For You. - Schmidting in the Punch Bowl - verb - Committing an unexpected and underhanded political act intended to "spoil the party."

      by TooFolkGR on Tue Aug 06, 2013 at 06:51:51 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  An apple a day... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Patango, Morgan Sandlin

    ...keeps the vet away!

    The sequester is the new Republican immigration reform plan. Make things so bad here in the US that no one will want to live here.

    by Mote Dai on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 09:50:06 AM PDT

  •  I have a serious issue with the site's move (7+ / 0-)

    from a policy of supporting 'more and better Democrats' to one of only 'better Democrats'.

    The fifty-state strategy as employed in 2006 and 2008 was a huge electoral success for Democrats.

    When we moved away from that strategy in 2010 we lost significantly.

    Why do we want to continue in the death spiral of supporting fewer and fewer Democrats by way of a litmus test?

    More and better Democrats will mean majority rule in Congress.  Without it, we will continue to be in the House minority for years to come.

    •  We GOT "more Democrats". Nothing changed. (0+ / 0-)

      It's no good just getting "more" Democrats if they make common cause with the Republicans and allow them to pass batshit unconstitutional "laws" that are intended to oppress and rob the 99% for the benefit of the .0001%.

      "More Democrats", by itself, is a failed strategy.

      If it's
      Not your body,
      Then it's
      Not your choice
      And it's
      None of your damn business!

      by TheOtherMaven on Tue Aug 06, 2013 at 07:28:14 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  "Nothing changed" (0+ / 0-)

        That is explicitly false.

        But go ahead and let Republicans win elections and majorities to keep seeing how 'nothing changes'.

        "Stay close to the candles....the staircase can be treacherous" (-8.38,-8.51)

        by JNEREBEL on Tue Aug 06, 2013 at 11:51:14 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  thank you (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Morgan Sandlin

    there are quite a few of us old time moderates on this site.  Appreciated.

  •  What is a moderate anyway? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    AdamSelene, Punditus Maximus

    It seems to me most of the lefty positions that get any mention these days are pretty moderate, in the sense that they poll pretty well nationally.  Marriage equality, national healthcare, reforming wall street...none of these are extreme positions these days.  

  •  it's all about what you consider "the site." (7+ / 0-)

    I feel welcomed by many.  I feel some don't welcome me.  c'est la vie, et la vie est ce qu'on en fait.

    t'is what it is.

    I'm not gonna pretend the acrimony between "factions" for lack of a more precise term, is nonexistent though.  that'd be ridiculous.

    This comment is dedicated to my mellow Adept2U and his Uncle Marcus

    by mallyroyal on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 10:44:58 AM PDT

  •  All of my lab-like dogs always considered getting (0+ / 0-)

    a whole apple to eat to be their most favorite treat, although my lab-border-collie mix was also very fond of cherry tomatoes and learned how to harvest them himself in the garden.

  •  Well there's this (4+ / 0-)
    No Place For Principled Lefties.
    http://www.dailykos.com/...

    I don't recall seeing a diary entitled No Place for Principled Moderates being written or recced listed.

    What I have seen on the rec list is derogatory depictions of alternative points of view, such as these

    Blah Blah Blah
    http://www.dailykos.com/...
    Yawn you f**king idiots
    http://www.dailykos.com/...

    So while it is true that no moderate needs to feel like they are being run off or that this is no place for principled moderates, I do think it is important to acknowledge that that feeling did not just arrive out of thin air.

    It is likely in response to high recced diaries and comments                 that depict moderates as shills, sheep, saps, dupes, blah blah blah idiots, fanboys, fangirls or tools of the state.

    "I am not interested in picking up crumbs of compassion thrown from the table of someone who considers himself my master. I want the full menu of rights." (From "You Said a Mouthful" by Bishop Desmond Tutu - South African bishop & activist, b.1931)

    by FiredUpInCA on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 11:19:02 AM PDT

  •  nobody is welcome at DKos.. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    edwardssl, FiredUpInCA

    :-)

  •  More and Better Democrats (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    undercovercalico, AdamSelene

    DKos's founding statement is "more and better Democrats".  Fundamentally, this is not a "moderate" statement -- the Democratic Party is one of the two parties, so it is not a statement that both parties should contribute to solutions.  And "better" does not mean "more like Republicans", so it is not a statement that moderation is the appropriate path for Democrats.

    So this isn't a "home" for moderates, not really.  They're welcome as guests and contributors and members of the coalition.  But the core values of the site, which are stated absolutely everywhere, are not "moderate".  They are unapologetically progressive.

    If you, as a moderate, are coming to DKos to turn it into a "moderate" site, and you feel threatened and unhappy that it is not following your desires, that's kind of on you.  The site is a reflection of its founder(s) and owner(s).  

    My personal experience with "moderates" in general is that they usually have a sense of tremendous superiority over everyone who has an actual opinion.*  "Both sides are wrong" is an article of faith.  DKos is not that place; it believes that the Progressive tradition of thought is right (though of course there is tremendous room for reasoned disagreement on particulars) and other traditions have been proven wrong or incompatible with human decency.  Disagreement with moderates' opinions can be taken as disagreement with their premise that they are Better Than You* and that makes them feel very much personally attacked.

    *My 2c, YMMV, Past Performance Is No Guarantee Of Personal Results, If It's Not About You, It's Not About You.

    TL;DR:

  •  Moderate or Leftist Pinko... (0+ / 0-)

    It is not the statement of a position that irritates me, I find it off-putting when people arrive to tell me they are saving either a) me from myself or b) the-integrity-and - mission-of-this blog then I start to opt for the whole not listening thing c) or they have secret knowledge that they want to share that is not so secret d) or that they are "speaking for" (but not in actuality) something/somebody it can get patronizing. The when you don't agree with that approach and hissy fits and big cheese meltdowns are had, it drifts off into drama which is fine I guess if that is what the intent is. Then somebody says "I am leaving, because I am better at fighting for democracy than you and you are just meanies...." I leave DK all the time and so do many other people, you get wrapped up in other things or the diaries don't grab you or you are human and you did get a bit of butt-hurt and need a break.

    I don't even really have a problem with people who argue over Snowden or other issues.

  •  Playing Victim is a simple phenomenon. (0+ / 0-)

    People write diaries with lots of disclaimers about "Ah Gahd, I know I'm gonna be flamed for this, but I am brave and strong and will do it anyway!!!!" It paints themselves and their point of view as that of a persecuted minority, and their opponents as uncivil beast-men intent on crushing all discourse.

    If it seems familiar, it's because it's what right-wingers do all day long.

    See, during the first couple years of Obama's term, you would be HR-mobbed for any real pointed criticism of Obama, especially if you implied he was like a Republican. This is when the Obama fan club was at the top of its game. Now a number of years have gone by and all the old criticisms have been verified time and time again to the point where the Obama Apologencia is no longer the majority around here. Hence, they adopt the cloak of victimhood, the persecuted minority of people who support the Dem POTUS on a Dem website. Oh the humanity.

    Do pie fights happen? Sure they do. But pie fights go both ways. There are still plenty of people on this site who will defend Obama to the death, and who believe Snowden is a traitor and the NSA isn't that bad and all that. Nobody has been "run out" unless they got their fee-fees hurt in a pie fight and left the site over it.

    Banking on the American people to be able to sort all this out and declare the adult in the room the winner is a very big bet. -Digby

    by Boogalord on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 01:31:02 PM PDT

  •  That's a beautiful dog (0+ / 0-)

    Which makes me sad since I lost my own beautiful beastie of fifteen years three weeks ago. Cherish her.

    Nothing human is alien to me.

    by WB Reeves on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 03:00:07 PM PDT

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