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I imagine that we all appreciate the input of front-pagers, but I've noticed that the rec list has recently been dominated by diaries written by front-pagers.  Since these diaries will likely (perhaps inevitably?) reach front-page status, it seems unlikely that they need the promotion associated with rec-list status.  

Might there perhaps be a way to exempt or block such diaries from the rec list?  It would seem likely that blocking posts which will find the front page regardless of up-recs might encourage posts by and up-recs of folks who might otherwise be overlooked.

Just an observation about recent trends....

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Brecht, Sylv, pdxteacher

    You think it's hot? Imagine what it would be like if global warming really existed!

    by JSc on Fri Aug 23, 2013 at 07:18:49 PM PDT

  •  FWIW, (20+ / 0-)

    it's not inevitable our pieces get on the FP, and in fact the recs they get from the community ends up being one of the factors in that decision.

    Though I can't speak to the bigger question.

    •  that is so silly (10+ / 0-)

      I did not know that.
      I hardly ever rec front pagers.
      Because I don't want them taking up space on the r list when they go front page.
      Now I find out they need the recs to go front page.
      Which makes zero sense.
      Because then they go FP and maybe the rec list.

      And we're back to dilemma sentence three.

      "My Mom is my hero, my angel and I revere her to no end.." Christin, July 6, 2013

      by Christin on Fri Aug 23, 2013 at 07:31:15 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  That's useful info (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      pdxteacher, kurt

      since I think most of we "little people" figure that most front-pagers' posts are destined for the front page regardless of community input.

      That said, given how rare it is that a non-front-pager's post ends up on the front page (proportionally), it seems that use of the rec'd diaries functionality of the site might not fully serve the FP and non-FP folks.

      Can you provide any additional insight about how rec-listing affects an accepted front-pager's posts versus those by a non-front-pager, and perhaps about how this affects the likelihood of a post appearing on the FP?  I ask through ignorance, knowing that many of we irregular posters / commentors have little knowledge of what amounts to a FP diary.

      You think it's hot? Imagine what it would be like if global warming really existed!

      by JSc on Fri Aug 23, 2013 at 07:37:29 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Something about posts by FPers vs not (8+ / 0-)

        is that FPers have consented to have our posts copy-edited, we follow a stylebook, etc.  So it weighs in the decision about FPing something by a community member is that if it would require a lot of copy-editing or stylebooking, we don't want to do that without asking.  And on a day when things are moving fast, that can be a fairly big barrier, asking and waiting to hear back and so on.

        Rec-listing is only one of a number of factors in whether an FP writer's post will be FP'd, because there are certainly some things that we feel it's important to highlight regardless, and there are things that share really well without having gotten a lot of comments or recs, showing that they're appealing to an audience that isn't necessarily registered at/participating directly in the site but that we still value reaching (definitely things that I write fall into that category). But for sure, if something an FPer writes gets a big response from the community, that's a factor.

        •  A freeping style book for bloggers? (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          bleeding blue, Polly Syllabic

          Broderism lives. Editing is one thing but stylebooks are so pre-internet.

          Thanks for the inside info.

          look for my eSci diary series Thursday evening.

          by FishOutofWater on Fri Aug 23, 2013 at 08:01:26 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Also useful info.... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          serendipityisabitch, kurt

          Might it be useful to the overall community to include a FAQ about the difference between FP folks and the rest of the community?

          Based on a few of the comments to this point, it seems that the DKos community (myself included) don't fully understand the role of recs re: FP folks versus the rest of the community.

          I don't think posting equations has any immediate value, but a general sense of "how things work" perhaps might not be bad.

          You think it's hot? Imagine what it would be like if global warming really existed!

          by JSc on Fri Aug 23, 2013 at 08:03:55 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Thanks for explaining the copy-editing. (0+ / 0-)

          I wish more Kossacks' truly newsworthy & well-written diaries got front-paged. It's such a kind thing to do, a real affirmation that that person is contributing value to our whole conversation.

          It's nice for front-pagers, that your work can be recced up by the community, so you know when you've been heard loud and clear.

          It does feel greedy to me, when I see an FPer's diary ride the rec list for a whole day . . . and then I see it again on the Front Page, three days later. I know you have a queue system, but I think hugely popular FPer diaries might supersede it?

          So that, if one of your diaries got to the top of the rec list, it would pop straight onto the Front Page, and free up space for another Kossack's diary on the rec list.

          "Every man has a right to utter what he thinks truth" Samuel Johnson

          by Brecht on Sat Aug 24, 2013 at 05:16:52 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Good idea, (3+ / 0-)

            Unless an FPer diary has a meta or community tag.

            Markos' recent rec list diary about site rules, for example, should not be on the FP, right? We don't need to completely advertise that we can't get along with each other more than we already do.

            © grover


            So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

            by grover on Sat Aug 24, 2013 at 08:41:38 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  We also try, (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Brecht, Meteor Blades

            if there's a reclisted diary on a subject where we're posting something ourselves, to include a link to it.  But again that's where, if we queued our post hours before it goes up, we might not have noticed/remembered to do it in a way that's relevant when the post actually hits the FP.  

            It's a constant balancing act, and remember that on a busy day, I may not even realize one of my posts has hit the reclist and I assume it's the same for others. Because you write it, you hit publish, and move to the next story.

            •  I get the balancing act. You see the production (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              pdxteacher

              from the inside, so you have more sense of all the factors that make up the sausage machine. When you're working on new stories - and living in the real world - you don't have time to keep tweaking and tending your older diaries.

              Daily Kos is my favorite website. Because of the quality of the work, and the richness of the community conversation. You FPers do sterling work. As a progressive, I'm glad we have you as a full-time Labor Editor.

              In terms of the balance, I find a lot of the excellence of Daily Kos comes from the richness of the community conversation. The formatting of the conversation (including how diary streams, topical groups, tags and following, support and organize the conversation) is very well-designed; and years of that have allowed an interesting, committed community to grow.

              Meteor Blades has always been so involved and aware of this enormous conversation, and most of the Front Pagers keep their hand in too. elfling seems to be pretty up on the state of DKos, day to day. But I don't think Daily Kos will ever go wrong, by putting more resources (time, energy, attention) into supporting all the contributions of the little people.

              Sadly, we haven't managed to clone MB yet. But giving elfling more support staff for moderating, and keeping an eye on the community, is a wise investment. If someone on staff was in charge of watching the Front Page queue, and copy-editing and Front Paging Kossack stories that eloquently address the issues FPers haven't managed to cover, that would help the little people feel that their voices sometimes carry all the way to the Front Page.

              Yes, "it's a constant balancing act". But any way of including more community voice, while actually improving the quality of Daily Kos product, is worth some effort and expense.

              And thanks. You guys are balancing pretty well already.

              "Every man has a right to utter what he thinks truth" Samuel Johnson

              by Brecht on Sat Aug 24, 2013 at 09:57:27 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Yeah, MB is fantastic that way. (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Brecht, Meteor Blades

                Speaking for me, I came out of the comments here. For whatever reason, now that writing here is a full-time thing, there are days when going into the comments feels really overwhelming -- very difficult especially during the flow of the workday, and then after work I'm not necessarily online as much. I don't know why the former is and wish I could better emulate MB as an active participant in the ongoing discussions that are what kept me here for so long. When it doesn't feel too overwhelming or when I'm online after hours/on weekends, I try to dive in. But frankly one of the reasons, as I think about it, that it's hard to do that is that even when I'm just speaking for myself, there's always the concern that I'll be read as speaking for more than just me. In a conversation like this, for instance! I keep having to pause and think about what I should and shouldn't be saying.

                However much we do or don't comment, though, there's no sense of community members as "the little people." Obviously I'm going to say that, but in this case it's true. Especially, I think, because so many of us spent years in the diaries and comments ourselves and, writing for the FP now, feel keenly that it's less that we've changed than that our task and our types of interaction have changed.

                •  I'm sorry the commenting's gotten harder for you, (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Laura Clawson

                  with less time and more responsibility.

                  I used to read so many books. So I got into R&BLers. Now that I'm writing a serious book diary every week, I find less time to read books, and only read a book if I see a diary at the other end. Your situation's more 24x7, but I surely empathize.

                  there are days when going into the comments feels really overwhelming . . .frankly one of the reasons, as I think about it, that it's hard to do that is that even when I'm just speaking for myself, there's always the concern that I'll be read as speaking for more than just me. In a conversation like this, for instance!
                  Indeed. My first thought, seeing you in this particular diary, was: I'm glad there's a Front Pager here to represent.

                  It's probably easier when you're talking with Kossacks you've known for years, because you know they have a sense of you as a person, not a figurehead.

                  And the figurehead is good. It's great that there is so much human face to Daily Kos. Whenever you do represent, just showing up in comments is a community service.

                  If I were in your shoes, and felt constrained, I'd mostly just go with it, like a town councillor talking in a diner. If I found a diary where I didn't feel like representing, and purely wanted to chat as myself, the subject line of my first comment would read "Off the record." In that diary, apart from being civil, I'd feel free to say what I liked.

                  there's no sense of community members as "the little people."
                  Alas, you don't have to condescend for it to feel that way. Not to me, personally - I'm convinced that I'm a rather splendid fellow, and anybody's equal. But to many in the community, you just are one of "the big people." Though it's very good for morale that even kos can take a joke, and that Bob Johnson plays court jester so well.

                  Didn't mean to write so much. Fine with me if you reply with two lines, or zero. You've already done enough, just by showing up and listening.

                  "Every man has a right to utter what he thinks truth" Samuel Johnson

                  by Brecht on Sat Aug 24, 2013 at 06:37:17 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

        •  When I rec an FPer's diary in the recent list (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Brecht

          and then see it later on the front page, I've noticed that my earlier rec has disappeared. It seems if I want my rec to stick, I have to wait until the diary gets to the FP and then rec it, if I think it deserves to stay on the rec list beyond its normal FP lifetime. Is it a bug? Anyhow I gave up recommending FPer diaries until they show up on the FP.

          •  I rec them on the recent list if they're breaking, (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            kurt

            or superb. I never rec them on the rec list. I rec them on the Front Page if they're very good.

            "Every man has a right to utter what he thinks truth" Samuel Johnson

            by Brecht on Sat Aug 24, 2013 at 02:14:08 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  Yep. (7+ / 0-)

      Especially when I write about non-Supreme Court stuff, including site meta, it's not for the FP at all.  (As a contributing writer, only the courts/campaign finance stuff is specifically within my FP purview.)

  •  Once the diaries make the FP (15+ / 0-)

    they are removed from the rec list, however.

    Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

    by a gilas girl on Fri Aug 23, 2013 at 07:32:55 PM PDT

    •  Also useful info (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Radiowalla

      Maybe it would be informative for the DKos community if some of the algorithms / decisions were spelled out in general terms?  

      I imagine there are several flexible decision points on which diaries hit the rec list or the front page, but it's interesting that you point out that FP posts are removed from the rec list.  That suggests that they block space on the rec list until they hit the FP, which suggests that acknowledged and accepted FP'ers are somehow competing with the community for recognition....

      You think it's hot? Imagine what it would be like if global warming really existed!

      by JSc on Fri Aug 23, 2013 at 07:50:13 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Algorithm (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        TomP, Brecht, kurt

        The algorithm for the rec-list is not given out, but it's not hard to figure out after being here for years.  The rec-list is driven by the number of recs -- and by how fast they accumulate. Recs given early on carry more weight than recs given later. After about 24 hours any incoming recs count for about zero.

        There is no algorithm for the FP. There are regular FP diarists and they get promoted to the FP (or not) by the managing editor.  Much less frequently, non-FP diaires get promoted to the front-page.

        The rec-list is completely automated, based on the algorithm.
        The FP is manual, a human queues the diaries and schedules them.

        Il est dangereux d’avoir raison dans des choses où des hommes accrédités ont tort. - Voltaire
        Don't trust anyone over 84414 - BentLiberal

        by BentLiberal on Fri Aug 23, 2013 at 08:06:43 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  My only problem is that these diaries (15+ / 0-)

    sometimes take a long time to get "promoted" to the FP.  Often it is too late to rec many of the comments and the discussion is already well underway.  Or I have already read the diary and am looking for something fresh on the FP.   It's a bit like reading yesterday's newspaper.  

    It's the Supreme Court, stupid!

    by Radiowalla on Fri Aug 23, 2013 at 07:34:37 PM PDT

  •  As someone who makes the Rec list often... (3+ / 0-)

    ...I don't have a problem competing with the FPers.  The black hole between the first and second pages is a bigger concern to me.

  •  I like that they publish (2+ / 0-)

    them on recent diaries and can get on rec list.  I think it is good for all.  

    Join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news and views written from a black pov—everyone is welcome.

    by TomP on Fri Aug 23, 2013 at 08:04:49 PM PDT

  •  With a few exceptions... (0+ / 0-)

    ...the main reason I look at rec listed diaries is so I can post some comments that would get better exposure.

    Warren/3-D Print of Warren in 2016!

    by dov12348 on Fri Aug 23, 2013 at 08:41:12 PM PDT

    •  Sounds like gaming the system. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      grover

      My (perhaps wrong) sense is that most of us are here to build a community rather than get better exposure.  If the latter is a major concern when posting, then that's a very different aspect of the community.

      You think it's hot? Imagine what it would be like if global warming really existed!

      by JSc on Fri Aug 23, 2013 at 09:04:21 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Those who rec up mediocre diaries... (0+ / 0-)

        ...by well-knowns so that their "community"  can get on the rec list once again, are worse gamers.

        Warren/3-D Print of Warren in 2016!

        by dov12348 on Fri Aug 23, 2013 at 09:12:06 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  You could say I'm honestly... (0+ / 0-)

        ...taking advantage of their more subtle gaming of the system.

        Warren/3-D Print of Warren in 2016!

        by dov12348 on Fri Aug 23, 2013 at 09:14:41 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Agree. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        serendipityisabitch, Brecht

        If members are diving  into rec list diaries for exposure (whatever in the heck THAT means) well, that certainly does explain why many of the rec list diaries are flaming messes.

        Clearly those who seek exposure aren't going to be posting subtle nuanced comments.

        Huh. This actually provides insight into something I never fully understood before.

        © grover


        So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

        by grover on Sat Aug 24, 2013 at 01:28:54 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Yea me too... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          serendipityisabitch

          noticed recently posts that barely even make sense in wreck list diaries getting recs, not a lot reds but a few.

          Makes sense people group up in the most popular diaries to give and receive recs for comments that would garner none in most diaries.

          The greatest shortcoming of the human race is our inability to understand the exponential function [Albert A. Bartlett]

          by fToRrEeEsSt on Sat Aug 24, 2013 at 01:56:07 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Yes. I've closely followed the development (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Brecht, Radiowalla, grover, pdxteacher

          of a few overnight diaries, and it's fascinating to watch a really good diary that's made it on the reclist before morning coffee, that was chock full of interesting and intelligent comments, all of a sudden get flooded with, well, cotton candy comments. At about the same time, recs start piling up for the first half dozen original comments, and those first threads get longer and longer.

          The better comments tend to accumulate at the bottom of the page once that happens, so I start at the bottom and search up once there are over 100 comments.

          At least half the future I've been expecting hasn't gotten here yet. Sigh.... (Yes, there's gender bias in my name; no, I wasn't thinking about it when I signed up. My apologies.)

          by serendipityisabitch on Sat Aug 24, 2013 at 02:55:38 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Interesting observation. Sad, when people all cram (3+ / 0-)

            their comments into the first few threads, and the subtleties of orderly conversation get drowned out. If the queue-jumpers at the top took time to read others' comments, and replied germanely to them, several-hundred-comment diaries would be far easier to navigate, and pleasanter to read.

            I usually go the other way. When I see a huge comment section - well, I'll leave one comment if it's a very important issue, or telling diary. Otherwise, I usually read the diary, and then walk away from the comment mess.

            "Every man has a right to utter what he thinks truth" Samuel Johnson

            by Brecht on Sat Aug 24, 2013 at 04:58:13 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  "Cotton candy comments" (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            serendipityisabitch, pdxteacher

            Is the kindest euphemism I've seen in years.

            :)

            Otherwise, a good observation overnight diaries in particular.

            © grover


            So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

            by grover on Sat Aug 24, 2013 at 08:35:32 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

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