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I have expressed prior to this, various concerns I have about the internet. I have a lot of mixed feelings about it. On one hand it is this potentially tremendous tool to communicate with people all over this country, and the world about basically anything, or everything.

On the other it is increasingly becoming a tool to force some forms of conformity in the world, often through the platform of public shaming or attacks on a person's ability to retain a job.

For many months now--I have been wrestling with myself over this matter.

I think it's obvious by now, that I come with a lot of baggage. It's not necessarily bad stuff, but heavy baggage, experiences that weren't so great, that have tremendously shaped my personality.

I have survived a lot of adverse situations, and lived through a variety of emotional and psychological traumas, and while this has toughened me and made me more resilient, it has also shaped my personality in ways that maybe aren't always things you want to see or hear at the dinner table.

Some people embrace that. They find it refreshing or perhaps intriguing, and others are horrified or even pissed off by these traits. I know you can't please everyone, but at what point does it go beyond that and become far more than just not pleasing everyone, and in fact an act of self destruction.

I stand before everyone here, wrestling with the notion--should I leave my diaries up? Should I take them down? This society is changing so fast, I am not sure where the boundaries are any more for any kind of honest and thoughtful discussion.

I grew up on authors like Margaret Atwood, and Naomi Wolf, and Robert Heinlein, Miss, and Bitch magazines, surrounded by what I felt, at that time, was a writing culture that encouraged emotional rawness as a sign of authenticity. And yet increasingly I see a gap online between that, and what is acceptable for the rest of us. It's no longer a sign of authenticity, but in fact an act of self destruction. A club you lay at the feet of future enemies for their convenience.

It used to be that every post online felt like this adventure, like part of a really great conversation at a big busy bar, and you didn't know what might come of it. You could be shouted down, you could be lifted up, but either way, it was just another form of conversing. It wasn't a big deal back in the day, now it's an enormous deal in a multitude of bad ways.

All those years ago, I treated my e-mail like my telephone. I had no reason not to. And now it's "Never put anything in an e-mail you wouldn't want the world to see..." which in my book ranks right up there with "don't wear a short skirt type advice." Meanwhile even our phone calls are no longer private, our library check-out lists are no longer private, and the public (little brother) is at times worse than the government (big brother).

Even in face to face situations, you could be filmed or recorded at any time with or without your knowledge or consent. So even private real-time conversations aren't necessarily guaranteed.

I am seriously contemplating just going back to hand written journals. To just save all these "gems" that aren't really that important for some poor fool to read long after I am dead. Because this doesn't feel safe, and hasn't felt safe for a while, and I am not talking about the Daily Kos, but the internet in general. All of it.  

There was a time when it was my only outlet for social activity, and now it just feels like I am setting myself up for trouble. It doesn't matter if what I say is heartfelt or funny, or right or wrong, or anything. It just makes me feel vulnerable and unsafe and stressed.

I am incapable of keeping online discussions in the realm of "safe" topics, especially since I am not entirely sure how that line is going to move in the future in this current surveillance state. I am not going to unload my adult humor, and I am opposed to pretending ignorance, even if it might save my professional life.

Our culture has some serious issues it has to deal with, with regards to being online. It needs to hammer out some rules that make sense everywhere all the time, and putting the implied or explicit threat to "be boring or else" isn't reasonable or rational, but I feel like that is the de-fault rule right now.

There used to be a time when you avoided topics like politics, religion and sex at the workplace. Now it increasingly seems to be the case for you online as well. Even if you think you are anonymous which I don't believe anyone truly is any more. Hiding who you are is such a burden.

I feel like I live a double life right now. Will I be discovered! OMG! What will happen to my family? Will people in the regular world still like me? What if I need to get a job and someone finds out what I think about any topic and the boss or the hr person doesn't approve? What if an opinion I held 20 years ago is unpopular? Am I allowed to change my mind? or "evolve"?

I feel like the internet is the tool to "slut shame" anyone, only it's not just about sexual activities (real or imagined) but any topic that can be linked back to a person in real life that can be used to punish them, even if they have broken no laws.

Instead of your diaries and comments here or anywhere being diaries, what if they were instead, you writing about yourself on a bathroom wall? Remember the days when other people did that for you? With the changing culture of the internet, now everything you say or do can be used against you forever.

That stresses me out. and it makes me think that I am only hurting myself and some day, perhaps my family. That my thoughts and reflections aren't important enough to counteract their potentiality of social and professional harm. That in some ways, talking about any controversial thing online is actually more self destructive right now than drinking a 12 pack a day and smoking like a chimney.

Originally posted to GreenMother on Wed Oct 23, 2013 at 06:39 AM PDT.

Also republished by Community Spotlight.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Knowing about the NSA a sense of paranoia is (12+ / 0-)

    probably a very 'normal' reaction. But what I tell myself no one really cares about the individual, you, me, anymore and as long as I'm not lying, cheating, stealing, or killing anyone, who cares?

    The part of all this internet stuff that I despise is the increase of Bully Tactics and exploitation. It has embolden a lot of crazies. In the long run none of it really matters.

    In the old days people use to knit or whittle, now we tap keyboards to keep or fingers busy from being idle:) It's a stress reliever and/or stress creator depending if you're optimistic or pessimistic.

    "Life without emotions is like an engine without fuel."

    "It's said that the honest man has nothing to hide. Not true. The honest man has to hide himself, because honest men are the prime targets of those who lie."

    by roseeriter on Wed Oct 23, 2013 at 07:03:01 AM PDT

    •  Bless you roseeriter (12+ / 0-)

      I just feel very conflicted about all this and I do appreciate all heartfelt feed back.

      I had this Star Trek fantasy about the internet--I have said this before. Where it was this giant library, this giant tome of knowledge that was going to edify humanity, and inspire creativity, and bring people together.

      This might still happen, but right now with our country so vitriolic and divided and all the anger and frustrations (including my own) that I just don't know what to make of any of it any more.

      Gentlemen, congratulations. You're everything we've come to expect from years of government training (Zed, MIB).

      by GreenMother on Wed Oct 23, 2013 at 07:18:32 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I sort of felt this way too: (11+ / 0-)
      Knowing about the NSA a sense of paranoia is (5+ / 0-)

      probably a very 'normal' reaction. But what I tell myself no one really cares about the individual, you, me, anymore and as long as I'm not lying, cheating, stealing, or killing anyone, who cares?

      And then a couple of months ago, I donated to wikileaks.  I felt rather smug about it.  The government has tried to make it hard for Americans to contribute to Wikileaks by sweet-talking Visa and Mastercard into not allowing payment transfers to them via their credit cards.  Wikileaks sued over that and eventually won, and I was quick to donate on a Mastercard.

      Like I said, felt rather smug.  And then it started to nag me because although, "no one [at the NSA] really cares about the individual," they probably care about me now after I did that.  The government has been inspecting lists of people who donate to Islamic charities, for instance, and harassing them in various ways.  It's not that paranoid now to suspect that I moved myself onto some shorter list of people to be cross-referenced against other political activities.  

      That nagged me, and after a while, I didn't feel quite as smug.  I still would have donated, might do it again, but a greater feeling of gravity about it has emerged.  It's not fooling around.

      And that makes me totally fucking furious.  This is a democracy, still, supposedly.  Although I'm projecting suspicions on what the government may be doing with regards to me and my donations and political activities, I shouldn't HAVE TO suspect such things.  There's something rather chilling about it -- not in the scary sense, but in the "Maybe I better not get so involved in participating in politics.  It might come back to bite me in some way."

      Back in 2005 or 2006, Cindy Sheehan had her vigil on the road in Crawford Texas leading to Bush's house.  Katrina was simultaneously tearing up New Orleans and some of the rain from that ended up drenching her and her supporters.  There were a multitude of local candlelight vigils in support of her here in California, and I attended one.  I remember there was some hostile guy with a video camera taking pics of us, and some of the protesters became angry about it.  "They're taking our picture to intimidate us," one said.  And I thought that was rather oversensitive and paranoid.  But now I look back and it doesn't seem as paranoid, because these things do accumulate over a lifetime.  I may not be in danger from the government directly, but it is CHILLING, as I said, and that just isn't right.

      •  Dumbo, that is a poweful story and should be a (5+ / 0-)

        diary, And you should publish that on the 26th, and I will be there to tip and rec it with bells on.

        I remember there was some hostile guy with a video camera taking pics of us, and some of the protesters became angry about it.  "They're taking our picture to intimidate us," one said.
        And what that idiot doesn't realize is, that he has helped set a precedent where people, esp the government can turn right around and do this to him too.

        How I wonder does all that pan out in light of the critical infrastructure clause?

        Gentlemen, congratulations. You're everything we've come to expect from years of government training (Zed, MIB).

        by GreenMother on Wed Oct 23, 2013 at 02:21:39 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  it emboldens more then the crazies (3+ / 0-)

      it also emboldens people to be more cruel, mean and petty than they ever would be in real life.

      Some times I wonder what will happen when anthropologists and historians read what is being written on the internet a hundred years from now. Will they think the behaviour on it typical or something that is only found in the comforts of anonymity?

      Der Weg ist das Ziel

      by duhban on Wed Oct 23, 2013 at 06:25:54 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I think that may depend on other factors (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        duhban, blueoasis, churchylafemme

        Perhaps part of this behavioral shift isn't entirely about feeling safe in anonymity, but the frustrations created by being slowly disenfranchised.

        Gentlemen, congratulations. You're everything we've come to expect from years of government training (Zed, MIB).

        by GreenMother on Wed Oct 23, 2013 at 06:36:05 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  respectfully i disagree (3+ / 0-)

          I've been on the nets since the days of usenet and while feeling that you are being disenfranchised might be a factor here or on other political blogs it's clearly an additional one not the sole factor.

          The fact is that people feel empowered to be assholes because they can get away with it and anything else is secondary.

          Der Weg ist das Ziel

          by duhban on Wed Oct 23, 2013 at 06:41:54 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Oh I have seen that too. (3+ / 0-)

            For a while you felt online like you were in your basement hanging out with friends. It's easy for things to get out of hand.

            But then some people just need to grow up. Some of us eventually do. Others--not so much.

            But then again--really heated discussions about sensitive topics--that line between you and asshole can be paper thin (me and asshole if you like) not necessarily to be mean or hateful, but because sometimes we say things that are difficult but that needs to be said.

            Sometimes people try to say things and it comes out all wrong or is misinterpreted.

            I guess my thoughts on that is that if you find yourself chaffing your hands like a cartoon villain at the thought of feeding someone their liver online, and you do it often, perhaps it's time to reconsider your purpose on the net. What are you really doing?

            If you find yourself going to places spoiling for a fight, then perhaps there are issues in your own life and mind that need to be dealt with.

            When we go online we have no idea who we are dealing with. Even with no-anonymity, we don't know people's mental state or health, or cognitive health, or what kind of day they are really having, or what things are going on in their lives that affect their behavior.

            Does it excuse bad behavior? Not repeatedly, but I would prefer compassion for someone over holding a grudge any day of the week.

            I see people as feeling isolated, frustrated--and getting online helps with some of that. But those feelings remain. All our collective psychological baggage remains and it's going to be reflected in these online communities.

            We are just lucky that here at the Kos, the people who run this place have just the right mix of authority and acceptance to dole out. And the community mostly responds positively.

            Gentlemen, congratulations. You're everything we've come to expect from years of government training (Zed, MIB).

            by GreenMother on Wed Oct 23, 2013 at 06:53:46 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  I think it will look like cuneiform in the years (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        GreenMother, duhban

        to come. Can you access something that was on a floppy disk anymore? This stuff does disintegrate. Forensic anthropology scientists will be able to look back two hundred years from now with their special archaic-reader tools. But those are the kind of people who are curious, not furious, and they will not be using it the same way we would today.
            As far as what the future will actually read and think of us- my father showed me an example when I was a kid that stuck with me: If you had a scrap of paper with these letters on it with indefinite spacing
        ....a  loaf    of   brown   ea    ....
        does that mean "a loaf of brown bread" or a "loafer of brown leather"?
        The future will make up its own meaning about us.
             The danger is what gets said and done and read only in the present. And personally I have always said that the internet is exactly as private as a postcard. So I try to own whatever I may have written, and live by saying what I think at the dinner table. My credit card numbers and other identifiers are everywhere anyway- I can only trust the universe and try to be careful myself.
             But I can empathize with people who have more embarrassing stuff out there...

        We are all pupils in the eyes of God.

        by nuclear winter solstice on Thu Oct 24, 2013 at 04:55:11 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I suppose I'm a jerk (0+ / 0-)

          because I don't empathize or sympathize with such people. Maybe I should but I just can't.

          As to reading it, yeah you still can but with some caveats attached. The average life of a floppy properly stored is at least a couple decades the question really becomes as you said a matter of finding the right way to access it. I mean even now it would be a pain to find a floppy drive much less have a way to connect it to a computer that could read it but 100 years from now? I really don't know if it would even be remotely possible outside of some really inspired and dedicated work.

          Der Weg ist das Ziel

          by duhban on Thu Oct 24, 2013 at 03:19:10 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  What do not break ,you in this world (2+ / 0-)

    Will make you in this world,

    •  Define broken (9+ / 0-)

      Ask someone who has lived a life where they struggle daily to have their basic needs met. When we punish people online harshly in society or the professional world--that is what we are threatening them with.

      And I guess my question is: Where are the lines.

      Clearly the Conservatives and Liberals have different lines.
      The Democrats and Republicans have different lines.

      Different religions have different lines.

      Feminists and nonFeminists have different lines.

      The different races have different lines.

      There are lines everywhere and some are more obvious and visible than others. How many lines does any one person get to cross before the rest of the world says, "That's it! You are done! Exile for you!"

      We have all this technology but we have regressed to Payton Place and many do not even know it. The world is a paradox online. It is enormous and yet miniscule at the same time.

      And the most generous space of forgiveness and understanding is the smallest mind with an opposing view, that you piss off.

      Gentlemen, congratulations. You're everything we've come to expect from years of government training (Zed, MIB).

      by GreenMother on Wed Oct 23, 2013 at 07:29:42 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I completely understand and wrestle with (12+ / 0-)

    many of the same issues. Definitely part of what made the internet so alluring and freeing is that belief that it was a safe harbor to post views anonymously, hopefully with like-minded and sympathetic individuals, or who, if they weren't like minded were at least open to the idea of civilized discourse.

    But, then, it seems inevitably, some sort of hive mentality takes over combined with some human need to constantly be "right" about a topic or issue and then things escalate to the point where personal animosities actually build over a name that is nothing but pixels on a screen because the pixels disagree with you.

    People behave online as they would never behave in public and it has coarsened all of us. When I went to elementary and middle school, there were cliques, but there was nothing even remotely similar to the internet bullying of children that goes on today where 12 year olds are told to drink bleach and die.

    I cannot read the comments sections on many news websites anymore because the comments are so ignorant, crude and vicious and it seems like there's some sort of contest being waged to see who can be the MOST crude, ignorant and vicious.

    So I guess it's not the lack of privacy that I fear as much as it is the lack of humanity that I fear.

    “Human kindness has never weakened the stamina or softened the fiber of a free people. A nation does not have to be cruel to be tough.” FDR

    by Phoebe Loosinhouse on Wed Oct 23, 2013 at 07:25:14 AM PDT

    •  Is there ever a time when you see this and can (3+ / 0-)

      understand the person in their anger?

      Which is not to say, approve, but sympathize?

      I get what you are saying about all of it though. There are people who are mean just to be mean. In my younger days I might have engaged, but generally I ignore now.

      I finally learned to pick my battles.

      Sometimes you can get into arguments with the people above, and it's hard to tell who's the troll.

      Gentlemen, congratulations. You're everything we've come to expect from years of government training (Zed, MIB).

      by GreenMother on Wed Oct 23, 2013 at 07:34:04 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Also about the bullying and cliques (8+ / 0-)

      I don't know. Perhaps we just never heard of that behavior.

      Now it's where everyone can see it, it's visible. Back in the day, kids hid that sort of thing on both sides to avoid adult intervention.

      Maybe they didn't tell each other to drink bleach and die, but I witnessed more than a few fights as a young person, and saw and heard the horrible things that (girls) would say about each other when they thought they had an agreeable audience.

      Gentlemen, congratulations. You're everything we've come to expect from years of government training (Zed, MIB).

      by GreenMother on Wed Oct 23, 2013 at 07:37:39 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I don't have any answers GM, in fact I have some (10+ / 0-)

    of those same doubts myself, although I'm not courageous enough to bare my soul as you so often do. I do know this much though. You always speak honestly about subjects that too rarely see that kind of truth. Voices like yours are needed to help expose and counteract the lies and hypocrisy coming from the dark side.  I know that I would miss your voice if you chose to stop posting here. But what matters of course is that you do what's right for you. Best wishes.

    Just give me some truth. John Lennon

    by burnt out on Wed Oct 23, 2013 at 07:53:06 AM PDT

    •  I guess I was groping in the dark to see (9+ / 0-)

      if others felt this way. Maybe some don't worry about it at all.

      I used to not worry about it much. Better out than in--sort of mentality.

      If we yank all the teeth and claws out of our social dialogue (regardless of politics or content) then we are depriving ourselves of the opportunity to really work through some difficult stuff.

      But if we insist as a culture on reveling in what I would often call, Disproportionate Responses to faux paxs  then we encourage people to censor themselves in favor of not being hounded. That means important discussions never happen. Discussions that might not be pretty, but that could bring new insight into very troubled topics.

      That means social evolution is slowed down in very important and often controversial subjects.

      And for people like me, who don't do Pollyanna well, it means living in a closet to some degree. Silencing one's self out of fear.

      Maybe I have been asking the wrong questions about this. I might be a bit stuck. What questions would you ask?

      Gentlemen, congratulations. You're everything we've come to expect from years of government training (Zed, MIB).

      by GreenMother on Wed Oct 23, 2013 at 08:03:55 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  You will lose that wrestling match (2+ / 0-)

    The real problem is that we are social animals with a strong instinct to express our opinions.  Much in the way that when it comes to sex, the safest thing one can do is abstain; so too when it comes to one’s beliefs, the smart thing to do is to keep your mouth shut.  But giving up the pleasure of expressing ourselves is as hard as giving up sex, and so we give in to temptation in spite of the danger.

    There is no point in taking your diaries down, because you will just put up new ones in the future.  You cannot help yourself.  If you were the type of person who could go through life without expressing a controversial opinion, you would have done so already.  You want to express your fears about putting stuff on the internet, and so you write a diary in which you attack society for its intolerance of people who say what they believe.  You are like one woman I knew who told me she was going to go on a diet just as she finished off a big bowl of ice cream.

    Forget about those hand-written journals.  You aren’t going anywhere.

    •  Lord give me self control, just not right now (4+ / 0-)

      ;)

      You are right for the most part.  

      But I don't do this to be cruel or hateful. I don't troll other people's diaries or sites.

      However if this is some extension of a self destructive habit, wouldn't this be the first step to recovery?

      Acknowledging that I have a problem? That the risk analysis is indicating a change in the virtual and social weather?

      Gentlemen, congratulations. You're everything we've come to expect from years of government training (Zed, MIB).

      by GreenMother on Wed Oct 23, 2013 at 08:14:53 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Please stay. (6+ / 0-)

        Your diaries are the real thing.

        Necessary revelations of emotion and complex thought.

        Just go back and look at all of the recs and comments your writing has garnered and feel good about it.

        This site, and the writers who use this platform to inform and challenge, are the necessary path, right now.

        Don't sweat next week or next year.

        We are with you and need your voice.

        'A scarlet tanager broke the silence with his song. She thought of the bird hidden in the leaves somewhere, unseen but nevertheless brilliant red. Nevertheless beautiful.' Barbara Kingsolver/ Prodigal Summer

        by flowerfarmer on Wed Oct 23, 2013 at 06:41:29 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Is it "some extension of a self destructive habit" (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        GreenMother

        I sure don't think so. I never see you being mean or nasty, although I believe in brutal honesty and expect to come here for frank discussions. And I don't feel you offering yourself up as a sacrifice for slaughter. I just see you as one of the wiser and more reasonable voices and am glad when you tell us important stuff or even just notice me. Thanks. [But I also don't know what you say elsewhere, as I more-or-less confine my computer time to my choice of news sites + dkos. What have you been up to in some other incarnation, Greenmother-eh?]

        We are all pupils in the eyes of God.

        by nuclear winter solstice on Thu Oct 24, 2013 at 05:06:33 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  What have I been up to? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          nuclear winter solstice

          Growing up. Just like everyone else.

          I don't mean to be mean or nasty, but I got that in me, just like many others and I have to be vigilant. I have to work on being sensitive to others too. To not let my curiosity run roughshod over the feelings of others sometimes.

          Wisdom is nice, but for me, it's the product of a lot of pain. I sometimes encounter people who seem to have never done anything stupid in their whole lives--I can like those people, but sometimes it's hard to relate, when I am standing there, with food stuck to my shirt and a rat the size of Texas in my hair, and a run in my stockings, panting and looking for my keys.

          I struggle with lots of things, have struggled with lots of things. But I guess I figured out that this is how I figure things out. I want my pain and frustration to be well spent.

          If I make no sense--in this post--I just woke up with a sinus infection.

          Gentlemen, congratulations. You're everything we've come to expect from years of government training (Zed, MIB).

          by GreenMother on Thu Oct 24, 2013 at 08:17:52 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Lets explore this--attacking society (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Vetwife, noelcor, blueoasis, ladybug53

      Questioning society--would have been a better choice of words.

      Questioning isn't attacking.

      I have read a great many blogs and diaries that I don't agree with. And most of the time, I am able to either walk away if I feel that the position is too extreme to allow for discussion, or get involved if there seems to be some kind of room for that.

      But what I don't do--but what I see is this desire to hunt people down and ruin their lives.

      Now it's one thing if a person posts genuine evidence of a crime that has been committed or will be committed. But I suppose to me, there is an issue of respecting people's rights to have any opinions at all, even ones that we not only disagree with but might find reprehensible.

      If it's something that affects peoples lives then perhaps some activism is called for. But wouldn't it be more prudent to target our laws, than to simply reach for the low hanging fruit of a relatively powerless user?

      There is a big difference between challenging a person's opinions online (even ugly ones) and setting out to ruin their lives financially and socially.

      A big difference between saying, "Not cool man" and "lets make sure they never work in this town again".

      Especially when the lines that I mentioned upthread are so anomalous.

      Gentlemen, congratulations. You're everything we've come to expect from years of government training (Zed, MIB).

      by GreenMother on Wed Oct 23, 2013 at 08:24:12 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Courage, GreenMother. (7+ / 0-)

    The last KosAbility diary was by a person with severe agoraphobia. The things she fears are real, just like you. FWIW, I consider your voice in the maelstrom to be important, as are all voices that tell the truth.

    One good thing about music, when it hits you feel no pain -Bob Marley

    by Darwinian Detritus on Wed Oct 23, 2013 at 08:24:00 AM PDT

  •  It seems to me... (4+ / 0-)

    that the root concern you're having is potential damage to your professional life. If that's correct, well, I don't know much about covering your tracks online, but I have a brother who does. Let me go through my stuff and see if I can't find some of his tips.

    Psychologically, I can't really call your concerns a phobia, because they aren't irrational. But I'd hate to see your response to those concerns cut you off from this venue of human interaction. Besides, you write some good stuff :)

    One good thing about music, when it hits you feel no pain -Bob Marley

    by Darwinian Detritus on Wed Oct 23, 2013 at 09:18:59 AM PDT

    •  I hate I suppose that people have to "cover their (5+ / 0-)

      tracks" online like that. It's good that there are things to do, but still.

      I have a friend who emigrated to a country in the EU. She was able to just be herself online. No one cares. There is this allowance --or so it was explained to me, to allow people to be themselves without the need to worry over every aspect of their lives. She is an artist, And over there, she can make her art with no worries that she might be passed over for a regular job due to content. Here in the states, she had to use a pen-name to protect her ability to find regular work.

      I can see her situation being representative of the nature of the virtual community in the states now.

      Even in the most heated arguments I have been in here, they were not engaged with this "I'll show you!" attitude, or "I'll get you!"

      When I see that in the world--on the net, I cannot help but think--Good god, do you have any idea the kind of world you are creating for yourself? For the rest of us?

      When someone feels they are the crusader for cause of justice--do they ever stop and ponder what justice is, as opposed to revenge?

      Gentlemen, congratulations. You're everything we've come to expect from years of government training (Zed, MIB).

      by GreenMother on Wed Oct 23, 2013 at 09:47:29 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  GreenMother, thanks for asking these questions (6+ / 0-)

        for yourself and for the rest of us. Since the NSA/Snowden revelations I know that I've had many of the same thoughts.

        On the one hand, I think why bother covering my tracks? If someone wants to find me they can and will. On the other hand, I am chilled at the thought of the Handmaid's Tale which feels ever and ever closer to reality.

        Which brings me to this thought that you're story of your ex-pat-artist friend brings to mind: an authoritarian monster is currently on the loose in the US. A few have gotten a glimpse and are sounding the alarm. Some of us are simply feeling the chill and starting to shiver.

        You're not alone, GreenMother. Thanks for writing but take care of yourself, too.

        "Let us not look back to the past with anger, nor towards the future with fear, but look around with awareness." James Thurber

        by annan on Wed Oct 23, 2013 at 10:51:56 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Wrestling with yourself (5+ / 0-)

    is a sign of self-awareness.

    Or comedy - Monty Python did it very effectively.  :)

    I am not religious, and did NOT say I enjoyed sects.

    by trumpeter on Wed Oct 23, 2013 at 10:29:33 AM PDT

  •  Just be you GM (7+ / 0-)

    You are a courageous person and that leads to all kinds of turmoil on or off the internet.   I enjoy your diaries and sometimes my own diaries bring me relief and sometimes stress.  FB is definately a stressor.   I like to feel the relief of many like minded people when we live in a world of confusion..sometimes I think it saves sanity.   We are no longer in a place to be neutral in many areas because our futures are at stake.. Take a Break but don't drop out.  I am there many times,,just where you are.

    We the People have to make a difference and the Change.....Just do it ! Be part of helping us build a veteran community online. United Veterans of America

    by Vetwife on Wed Oct 23, 2013 at 10:51:11 AM PDT

    •  I always thought that rawness and vulnerability (5+ / 0-)

      were pretty close to each other.

      Letting someone in? for lack of a better phrase.

      When a friend lets you into their home, and you don't like the decor` you don't destroy their house do you?

      Some of the most enlightening moments I have had online were reading the posts of others who held what I considered absolutely reprehensible beliefs and political positions.

      But by allowing them the room to be who they were, while I reserved judgement, I was able to comprehend what drives those thoughts and beliefs. And in learning, that improved my communication skills on those topics, and even on topics near and dear to me--my personal sacred cows.

      If everyone that you didn't agree with, were silenced and perhaps driven off into the wilderness--how would we learn? How would we learn to create a community with so many diverse people and beliefs? How would we learn to find common ground? How would we discipline our thoughts, in order to learn how to tolerate anyone else that didn't hold similar views? How could we hone our own arguments in a debate, without worthy adversaries to challenge us?

      Gentlemen, congratulations. You're everything we've come to expect from years of government training (Zed, MIB).

      by GreenMother on Wed Oct 23, 2013 at 02:09:39 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Important question (and not the only one) (2+ / 0-)
        If everyone that you didn't agree with, were silenced and perhaps driven off into the wilderness--how would we learn?
        This struck a chord in me. The issue that I keep running into is that so many of us have no interest in learning.  There are some unfortunate leftovers in our brains' wiring from our survivalist days pre-civilization.  Being quick to judgment, rejecting things that didn't fit our worldview, and being suspicious of those not immediately recognizable as one of our tribe were all helpful tactics for staying alive once-upon-a-time.  

        For instance, if we don't actively combat the behavior in ourselves, when presented with evidence that refutes something we believe we are predisposed to reject it and strengthen our previously-held incorrect belief.  How do truth and rationality and civility progress when attempts to enlighten drive people further from reality?  I haven't figured it out yet.

        But I haven't given up trying, either...

        If you want a discussion, please stick to arguing the point. If you wanted something else...please exit the vehicle.

        by robizio on Wed Oct 23, 2013 at 09:15:42 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Sometimes I encounter things that are very (0+ / 0-)

          far from my beaten path. And there are times when even after contemplation of these other positions, I might still perceive or judge them to be erroneous. However, it is only by going through the exercise of imagining if I did hold that view, that I can even begin to understand what the other person fears, or distrusts or wants or is trying to accomplish. And sometimes that exercise is more important than correctitude, because that is the exercise that can lead to open communication.

          Don't give up!

          Gentlemen, congratulations. You're everything we've come to expect from years of government training (Zed, MIB).

          by GreenMother on Wed Oct 23, 2013 at 09:25:32 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  I guess I am halfway to stream of consciousness (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      blueoasis

      stuff right now--because my reply was to you, but it sort of jumped off the cliff and went wherever it wanted to.

      Sorry if I caused confusion. Thank you Vetwife for the positive feedback. I read your diaries and you amaze me. I have told you that. You are a very strong person, because you endure so much while still helping others.

      Gentlemen, congratulations. You're everything we've come to expect from years of government training (Zed, MIB).

      by GreenMother on Wed Oct 23, 2013 at 02:12:00 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You are very strong as well my dear (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        GreenMother

        and one time I was a moderator on a conservative site but it was to help vets..back 2005 or so.. I did learn neither side would tolerate me lol and I too was trying to learn.   I challenged and was challenged,,, I tried to educate with my views and explain bullets did not distinguish party lines and it became a mess .   I had a real hard time going back to the net with my opinions because left and right were tearing me apart.  I could not comprehend the hatred on both sides.  No I don't tear houses apart but it came to the point that I had to leave the house for fear I was gonna get a chair thrown at me from either the right or a sofa from the left for being at the house.. lol

        Thank you for your kind words.  I know for a fact now the right set me up in a way to see if I would moderate their site and didn't think someone on the left would but I did.
        There were some nice people there but when a poltical subject came up it was all our war if I joined in.   They have a block to other opinion and I have no patience for not seeing another side so there ya go.

        We the People have to make a difference and the Change.....Just do it ! Be part of helping us build a veteran community online. United Veterans of America

        by Vetwife on Wed Oct 23, 2013 at 06:46:09 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  i'm going in the other direction (6+ / 0-)

    i get closer and closer to deciding to use my real name on the internet

    i'm proud of everything i have written, even in my most intemperate moments during the GWB administration

    if they come for me someday, at least I stood up for who i truly was and refused to be silenced

    Politics is like driving. To go backward put it in R. To go forward put it in D.
    Drop by The Grieving Room on Monday nights for support in dealing with grief.

    by TrueBlueMajority on Wed Oct 23, 2013 at 11:56:52 AM PDT

    •  I hope you reconsider this. (6+ / 0-)

      There are unstable people out there, many of them ideological as well as dangerous -- and um, armed.

      It's obscenely easy to find out where people live.

      You can be authentic without putting a target on your back.

      I dunno. I've seen and interacted with a lot of the public through all my years, often dealing with unhappy and desperate people. It just seems like in the last few years, it's become ok in certain sectors of society to bully (and worse) people simply for what they stand for.

      One unstable person is a likely a harmless nutcase. But with a group of real life or internet buddies cheering him on, he can become a nutcase seeking glory, on a mission, and unwilling to back down because he'd look bad to his friends.

      I'm not easily spooked. But I believe in taking proper care too.

      Please be careful, TBM.

      © grover


      So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

      by grover on Wed Oct 23, 2013 at 12:55:28 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I used to deal with the public in a public manner (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        flowerfarmer, blueoasis

        and you know, I never thought I could be more frightened than I was, during the Bush administration, especially the second one. But finding out that the Democrats have been in up to their necks on this Big Brother thing has been awful and frightening.

        When you add to that the zealous desires that people act on online against each other, mixed with this police state-already ripe for abuse, where corporations are people, etc., and so on and some times it just gets scary for me.

        I know intimately what happens to whistleblowers, and the like, and it's not pretty. I know what happens to public figures and that too is not pretty.

        In the race to to keep individuals from abusing their authority, I think sometimes the public overcompensates and is unnecessarily cruel.

        I think most of all--perhaps I am wrestling also with becoming more me, as I age and questioning who that is. I think that is difficult for anyone, but being the kind of person I am now and have been in the past it's been a struggle determining what I will keep and what I will drop or transform.

        Perhaps this is strongly on my mind because the 26th is coming up and that is supposed to be a day of protest against the NSA abuses.

        Some of it is fear of being thought a fraud. I am very much like this in real life-curse words and all, but I don't know if that's enough.

        Gentlemen, congratulations. You're everything we've come to expect from years of government training (Zed, MIB).

        by GreenMother on Wed Oct 23, 2013 at 01:46:10 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I felt that way once. (3+ / 0-)

      When I didn't feel that way anymore, the feeling was replaced with regret. Be careful with yourself.

      Gentlemen, congratulations. You're everything we've come to expect from years of government training (Zed, MIB).

      by GreenMother on Wed Oct 23, 2013 at 02:13:30 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I personally believe that anonymity (2+ / 0-)

      is the bane of the internet because it provides cover for those cowards who spew their hatred without fear of being exposed as bigots. To me, it is their electronic version of the hood on a klansman.

      I applaud your thoughts on going public.

      Live so that when your children think of fairness, caring and integrity, they think of you. H. Jackson Brown, Jr.

      by Ellen Columbo on Wed Oct 23, 2013 at 04:08:32 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I agree that some very rotten people hide behind (3+ / 0-)

        anonymity to do very rotten things. But given today's cultural and political divisiveness, some of us learned to hide because in some places, we are outnumbered. Maybe you won't get your ass kicked in the parking lot, but it can still cause you trouble in expected and unexpected places.

        Gentlemen, congratulations. You're everything we've come to expect from years of government training (Zed, MIB).

        by GreenMother on Wed Oct 23, 2013 at 06:42:27 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I appreciate the kind thoughts, but I wasn't going (5+ / 0-)

    for an attagirl. I am more interested in exploring these thoughts deeply with other people.

    I know some folks like what I write here, sometimes, because it gets good attention, positive feedback or maybe not positive feedback, but productive conversations.

    How can we change this from the bottom up?

    I know that we are in it for the long haul in terms of protesting and reforming the current status of big brother online and maintaining something that looks like net neutrality.

    But can this be remedied at a cultural level?

    Being disliked, or judged isn't so scary, except when it has real, material consequences. And that too serves it's purpose, but sometimes I think perhaps we haven't as a culture adequately defined which acts are truly unforgivable offenses, and which are something less that require nothing more than 2 dimensional disapproval.

    For instance--the BSA guys that vandalized the park. They filmed themselves doing something awful. They defaced a park and made excuses for their actions. I don't believe that they should be scout leaders any more, I would not be adverse to them receiving a stiff fine and perhaps being banned from national parks for a period of time, and doing some community service.

    But they should not receive death threats. No one died. They didn't assault anyone or anything like that.

    Granted this is an example--when we as people on the net get together as a group to express our displeasure and anger over a situation--we should be careful that we don't give the appearance of a mob.

    How would that be any different that what those girls did in Florida that caused that child to commit suicide? We on the outside see it as bullying. It was certainly wrong. No doubt it started out, as an attempt to enforce territorial issues over a male, which is common enough, but where did the girls learn to take it that far?

    Their parents have a part to play, but how much of that emerged, after those girls see mobbing and bullying and vigilantism online? Their only sin by that standard, was the target, and not the mentality.

    See what I am getting at?

    Gentlemen, congratulations. You're everything we've come to expect from years of government training (Zed, MIB).

    by GreenMother on Wed Oct 23, 2013 at 01:55:07 PM PDT

  •  Leave them up (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    GreenMother, duhban

    Once you have written them and posted, they are out there in some form or fashion.

    you are who you are ... fu*k anyone who doesn't like it unless you are actively and knowingly hurting them.

    BTW, I am not one of your greatest supporters but you have every right to say what you want, where you want. If "they" are going to come after you, they already have the goods.

    Peace

    "I want to live in a world where George Zimmerman offered Trayvon Martin a ride home to get him out of the rain that night." Greg Martin, Bishop of the Episcopal Diocese of Central Florida

    by CorinaR on Wed Oct 23, 2013 at 02:03:57 PM PDT

  •  in fairness (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    GreenMother

    phone calls were never private especially in the early days when you actually had to be 'put there' on the switch board. People I think tend to forgot that and over romanticize the actual trials and tribulations the phone created. Or for that matter the fact that it took more than 40 years of case law and law changes to actually get to the point we are today.

    That said I hope you leave your diaries up both because they're interesting and because I don't really think you have much to fear. I not so long ago was in a conversation about debit cards vs cash and a point was made about how  debit cards leave a 'trail'. My response to that (and there is a point to this) was basically yes and so what? I rather feel the same about being online.

    Yeah there's lots of things that the government could do but in most cases why should they? And frankly most abuse I have seen and heard about is individuals abusing the responsibilities and duties of their job and not some monolithic, nefarious attempt to replicate some futuristic totalitarian government.

    So really don't stress yourself out overly on the topic. Yes there are important questions and discussions to be had but on the whole I'm not sure it's really as bad as some would like to portray it as.

    Der Weg ist das Ziel

    by duhban on Wed Oct 23, 2013 at 06:23:30 PM PDT

    •  Considering how you and I have gone round and (3+ / 0-)

      round, I am really touched by this moral support you offer. Not sure I agree, but the sentiment is deeply appreciated.

      I don't believe that nefariousness has to be part of the picture, and most of the time someone at my level of society isn't important at all, until they are.

      And then it's me, that cannot afford a retainer without going into hock vs either the government or a large company that in comparison has, unlimited resources, connections and clout.

      It's not a conspiracy theory, it's a food chain and I am definitely no where near the top.

      Gentlemen, congratulations. You're everything we've come to expect from years of government training (Zed, MIB).

      by GreenMother on Wed Oct 23, 2013 at 06:39:46 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I always believe disagreement is healthy (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        GreenMother

        so to me while we might disagree it's not personal past the mere fact that you and I view the world somewhat to very differently. And really I appreciate that because views and opinions should always be challenged, respectfully so but still challenged.

        As to the rest, :shrug: I'm not sure what really you are fearing so it's hard to answer on this. I mean what do you mean by affording a retainer? The laws on the use of the internet for better and worse are incredibly loose. That said I wouldn't discount the ability of the internet to organize, Obama's election and the defeat of SOPA are two of the examples of that that stand out in my mind.

        I don't think there's anything 'conspiracy theory' about it either. The government has the means to vastly intrude on the people. But governments have always have had that power (one only has to look at China and a lot of South America for proof on that). The question to isn't can the government do so but does it (or maybe better put will it)?

        Der Weg ist das Ziel

        by duhban on Wed Oct 23, 2013 at 06:49:10 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  This might sound funny coming from me (5+ / 0-)

    But after lurking here for two and a half years, I’ve recently started to comment because I feel as if I need to have a voice. It didn’t do me much good to think my thoughts and have my opinions and never share them. Sure, it was safe, but increasingly unsatisfying. I’m working up to one day posting diaries, but as you can tell, I move a little slowly.

    I think what you write is important and deserves to be shared. We need more people who can present cogent, well-reasoned opinions, not fewer, because there are entirely too many people on the internet who have never met an intelligent thought but who blather on anyway. Please don’t let fear of such people silence you.

  •  With all due respect, I don't think in the end (2+ / 0-)

    much of this comes back to bite us on the ass. I think there is a certain amount of thinking that our little missives here and there are important and and/or noticeable but really, I don't think they amount to more than the tiniest ripple in cyberspace.  

    I do think that some of our statement online can go too unnecessarily far, and that involves perhaps personal restraint that might be rational in any case. This has nothing to do with "who's spying on us," but simply perhaps a kind of growing up.

    I myself have gone too overboard here and I've thought restraining some of my more extreme language would be good for me as an individual, not because others might care down the line. (So okay, I'm the one who needs to "grow up.") I need either to ignore a potential nasty interchange, or comment in a more measured way with more temperate language.

    "The soil under the grass is dreaming of a young forest, and under the pavement the soil is dreaming of grass."--Wendell Berry

    by Wildthumb on Wed Oct 23, 2013 at 07:04:37 PM PDT

    •  Great Comment Wildthumb (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Wildthumb

      I wish I could say that I had no idea what you were referring to in the end of that comment.

      But we know better don't we. :)

      Gentlemen, congratulations. You're everything we've come to expect from years of government training (Zed, MIB).

      by GreenMother on Wed Oct 23, 2013 at 07:14:53 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Thanks! Sometimes we do "know better." :) (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        GreenMother

        Keep up the environmental work. At some point I need to present some thoughts on my own schoolyard habitat work in CA, by the way.

        "The soil under the grass is dreaming of a young forest, and under the pavement the soil is dreaming of grass."--Wendell Berry

        by Wildthumb on Wed Oct 23, 2013 at 07:36:02 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  That sounds absolutely wonderful and fascinating (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Wildthumb

          What kind of habitat did you create---Its okay I can wait for the diary!

          I look forward to it.

          Gentlemen, congratulations. You're everything we've come to expect from years of government training (Zed, MIB).

          by GreenMother on Wed Oct 23, 2013 at 08:24:36 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Will hopefully spell this out in some detail in (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            GreenMother, Jan the Librarian

            a future diary, but for now, briefly:  eighteen years ago I designed and directed the formation of a fairly large nature center ("schoolyard habitat") on a school campus. (A teacher at the school had gotten a hold of a native plant organization in CA where I was a volunteer, the Theodore Payne Foundation; the Foundation put me in touch with her.) This space was 7500 square feet: it was large enough to include many "plant community" spaces along with trees, fish pond, etc.)

            It started as strictly a CA native plant garden (with emphasis on "drought tolerant" vegetation) but slowly morphed into essentially a sanctuary for native plants and native animals surrounded by blacktop and urbanity. I brought in frogs, toads, lizards, and fish, all native to California. I later designed and became a volunteer "instructor" of students at a second school, and have consulted and assisted at other schools with others who wanted to start native gardens/schoolyard habitats/nature centers. I've occasionally been paid, but mostly I do it out of passion. I've been doing this fairly intensively since I retired from my regular (contracting) job.  

            Lately, I'm looking into starting a nonprofit org. to create other schoolyard habitats (the term was invented by CA Dept. of Fish and Wildlife, I believe). Some "gardens" will be postage-stamp size; others may involve hopefully large portions of unused parts of campuses (campuses from elementary school to university-level, hopefully).

            Frankly, I detest the kind of paperwork to get things started; I'd rather just go out and help teachers, parents and kids tear up some dirt (or blacktop, as the case may be) right now and have fun the way I always have had: as a volunteer. As a volunteer you have HUGE leeway to do what you want if you have the expertise. People love to have you. But I want to go bigger now: perhaps eventually reach the entire greater Los Angeles area for this "movement." I see it as reaching the future of environmental stewardship: our kids at the earliest levels.

            (My God: I didn't know I'd write even this much; I was just looking at some stuff online about starting a nonprofit; I have to meet with someone in a few days who can answer all my questions.) More later. Whew! Thanks for your interest!

            "The soil under the grass is dreaming of a young forest, and under the pavement the soil is dreaming of grass."--Wendell Berry

            by Wildthumb on Wed Oct 23, 2013 at 09:38:01 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  You will be helping pollinators for starters (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Wildthumb

              Gentlemen, congratulations. You're everything we've come to expect from years of government training (Zed, MIB).

              by GreenMother on Wed Oct 23, 2013 at 09:46:57 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Indeed; that's a biggie for us. I plan on a large, (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                GreenMother

                permanent, informational sign on the pollinators in our garden soon. (We have a huge milkweed patch that attracts a big monarch population, for one thing). And our bee species populations are amazing.

                "The soil under the grass is dreaming of a young forest, and under the pavement the soil is dreaming of grass."--Wendell Berry

                by Wildthumb on Wed Oct 23, 2013 at 10:10:57 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  That is fantastic. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Wildthumb

                  Gentlemen, congratulations. You're everything we've come to expect from years of government training (Zed, MIB).

                  by GreenMother on Thu Oct 24, 2013 at 08:20:10 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Okay, so when are you going to take some (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Wildthumb

                  macro shots of these critters in your garden and post them. I volunteer to help you ID them if you like :)
                  I understand that you might not want to take a picture of the garden itself or the school, but just the bugs and birds perhaps?

                   I think it would make a great diary sometime in the future?

                  Gentlemen, congratulations. You're everything we've come to expect from years of government training (Zed, MIB).

                  by GreenMother on Thu Oct 24, 2013 at 11:28:55 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

  •  our library check-out lists are no longer private (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    GreenMother

    ...well, they might still be at my library. Our director made a decision right after the PATRIOT Act commenced that we would not let our software keep that list. We know who has the book now and who had it last just in case damage is discovered later, but beyond that utilitarian part, we don't know. (Plus, I would like to think that kind of evidence wouldn't stand up in court as our software acts funky sometimes and it's way too easy to make mistakes. So I would never swear to its accuracy.)
        When asked by our patrons why we can't, I give them a polite but firm explanation that this is because of the NSA letters- we want to be able to look the Men in Black in the eye and say, 'sorry, can't help ya.' Then I tell the patron that if they really want it fixed, call their Congressman and work to repeal the ACT.
        I said 'might', because we once caught our vendor keeping that part of the software active off-premises against our wishes. I think that part got solved. But that can happen.
        This is very important to me because I grew up with that sort of info considered sacred too.

    We are all pupils in the eyes of God.

    by nuclear winter solstice on Thu Oct 24, 2013 at 04:40:39 AM PDT

  •  i've blogged using my real name (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    GreenMother

    and never had a problem, professionally or otherwise. i'm pretty sure i'm probably highly annoying to others who share the exact same name as I do but eh, that's not my problem. For the two I do know about, one is in his 60s and highly successful (I know this because, well, we're related) and the other lives in the UK and seems to be amused by the online footprint I've built since 1997 using our shared name.

    people in communities have always tried to shame others for what they say no matter where they are. the internet really isn't any different.

    Dawkins is to atheism as Rand is to personal responsibility- mperiousRex.

    by terrypinder on Thu Oct 24, 2013 at 07:45:32 AM PDT

    •  Well Terry, I will say, keep on keepen on (0+ / 0-)

      And even though I worry for everyone out there for now, that should not be confused with the notion that it is a helpless concern voiced and not acted upon.

      If you ever do have issues with that I hope you say something, so we know to rally with you.

      Gentlemen, congratulations. You're everything we've come to expect from years of government training (Zed, MIB).

      by GreenMother on Thu Oct 24, 2013 at 11:23:05 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  The NSA changes nothing for me. Because of my life (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    GreenMother, marsanges

    history I have some substantial defenses to keep aspects of my life private. Everything I post here is true and nothing but the truth, so far as I am able, but it has never been the whole truth. Even folks in real life know things as I see it fitting into their readiness and our relationship.

    For whatever reason the maxim "What happens on Kos stays on Google - forever" was ingrained almost as soon as I started posting and I have never felt that this was a "private" place. I am open about what I would be open about in real life, and private about what I would keep private. Similarly I try to be as civil in what I write as I would be in person.



    Is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary? . . . and respect the dignity of every human being.

    by Wee Mama on Thu Oct 24, 2013 at 07:56:12 AM PDT

  •  I say, (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    GreenMother

    "Fuck em'," then, steal the horse they rode in on.

    We can discuss this and wonder what to do about that, but in the end, the ONLY thing that matters is voter turnout. Ya CAIN'T go to the dance if you AIN'T bought your ticket! Go team go.

    by franklyn on Thu Oct 24, 2013 at 11:37:17 AM PDT

  •  Just Because You're Paranoid (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    BeninSC, GreenMother

    Doesn't mean they're not out to get you.  That being said,  if you shut up and shut down,  they've already got you.  For  internet trolls and mischiefmakers as much as Orwellian  government agencies, a  victory is a victory,  give up and they win,  stay strong and they have to work for their supper.

    I'm sure I  wouldn't agree with you on everything, but you do always have an  interesting take  and one that I  love to hear... erm...  read, take care,  stay safe,  and stay  strong, for the loss of one is as bad as the loss of all.  and that goes for all of  you

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