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In this 50th anniversary year of the JFK assassination, did you know all of the below are facts supported by documents released since the John F. Kennedy Assassination Records Collection Act of 1992?

• While a million Americans were on the FBI’s subversives watch list in the early 60s and entertainers with remote ties to communism were still being blacklisted, defector and admitted traitor Lee Harvey Oswald was not.  In fact, he could move freely about.

• In the summer of 1963, pro-Castro Oswald publicly scuffled with the nation’s most well-known anti-Castro group – the DRE –  and their arrests and resulting debates were covered on radio and TV and in the newspapers.  The DRE was financed and directed by the CIA’s Miami propaganda and counter-intelligence bureau.

• The DRE was also the first in the country to go public with a conspiracy theory with calls to the media the day of the assassination that led them to Oswald’s pro-Castro media exposure in New Orleans, implicating Castro’s involvement.  

• The CIA operative in charge of the group – George Joannides – would later show up during the investigations in the 1970s by the House Select Committee on Assassinations.  He was brought out of retirement by the CIA to server as liaison with the committee, which had no idea he had been in charge of the anti-Castro group that was involved with Oswald that summer.  

• HSCA chairman William Blakely later said Joannides would’ve been put on the stand and also charged with obstructing justice.

• FBI director J. Edgar Hoover told LBJ the day after the assassination that someone had impersonated Oswald in Mexico City in September 1963 according to CIA wiretaps and photos. That part of Johnson’s presidential tapes – 14 minutes – was erased and considered lost until someone found a transcript.

• Earlier wiretaps of Oswald did not mention that he had met with Soviet Embassy Consul Valery Kostinov.   The imposter, however, made sure that Soviet and Cuban embassy staff confirmed on the wiretapped phone that Oswald had met with Kostinov.  

• Kostinov was the head of KGB assassinations in the Western Hemisphere, a fact known only by handful of US intelligence officers

• Johnson did not divulge the Oswald Mexico impersonation story when he asked Supreme Court Justic Earl Warren to head the commission on JFK’s assassination.  He did mention Oswald had met with Kostinov and that knowledge would lead to WWIII and the “deaths of 40 million Americans.”

• In case anyone missed the point, a typewritten Oswald letter was sent to the Soviet embassy in DC just two weeks prior to the assassination leading with the assertion he had met with “Comrade Kostin” in Mexico City.  It showed up two days prior to the assassination because the FBI had stopped and searched it, as it did with all mail going to the Soviet embassy.  Following the assassination, the Soviets considered the letter proof of a U.S.-based conspiracy and gave it (back) to the FBI.  This document actually did show up in the Warren Commission report.

• In the month of his assassination, Kennedy had signed a memo to withdraw from Vietnam, had scheduled a back-channel meeting with Castro to normalize relations with Cuba, and was determined to achieve complete détente with the Soviets through his relationship with Khrushchev since the Cuban missile crisis had made both men distrust their military counsel.  He had told a friendthat after his election he would be the first U.S. president to visit the Kremlin and end the Cold War forever.

“He looked far ahead and he wanted to change a great deal. Perhaps it is this that is the key to the mystery of the death of President John F. Kennedy.”
- written by Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev in a Sixth Floor Museum memory book in 1998

Allan Dulles, CIA – “That little Kennedy. He thought he was a god.”

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Comment Preferences

  •  GOD! Whatever happens, you've got guts. nt (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    worldlotus, viral

    We can discuss this and wonder what to do about that, but in the end, the ONLY thing that matters is voter turnout. Ya CAIN'T go to the dance if you AIN'T bought your ticket! Go team go.

    by franklyn on Sun Nov 03, 2013 at 01:17:23 AM PDT

  •  There are many curious facts related to (12+ / 0-)

    JFK's death. They're all part of the record, so cherry-picking a few of them to roil the waters is easy and cheap.

    As one instance of how misleading and essentially trivial most conspiracy-mongering is, you note that Oswald was not on the FBI's watch list, but fail to mention he was being watched instead by the CIA.

    Adam Gopnik has a nice article on the assassination, the proliferation of conspiracy theories and theorists, and the significance of that proliferation.

    "There are ways in which the pattern-seeking is a meaningful index of the event, and gives us more insight into its hold fifty years on than the evidence does. A web without a spider still catches the light."

    Ponder that. While you do, be aware that until you have a thesis supported by concrete evidence, what you have is the sort of black-hole CT bullshit that this site has stated time and again it will not waste itself on.

    http://www.newyorker.com/...

    Dick Cheney 2/14/10: "I was a big supporter of waterboarding" . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . UID: 8519

    by Bob Love on Sun Nov 03, 2013 at 02:00:06 AM PST

    •  Best line in the New Yorker story... (7+ / 0-)

      "The J.F.K. conspiracy theorists are the first and hardiest of those movements—the truthers and birthers and moon walkers being their stepchildren—in which the old American paranoid style, once largely marginal and murmuring, married pseudoscience and became articulate, academic, systematized, and loud."

      •  And endlessly persistent. nt (5+ / 0-)

        Dick Cheney 2/14/10: "I was a big supporter of waterboarding" . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . UID: 8519

        by Bob Love on Sun Nov 03, 2013 at 03:56:15 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  This one's even better... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        waterstreet2013, franklyn
        By J.F.K.’s own accounting, the Bay of Pigs was the first failure. In the eyes of the national-security hawks, the Cuban missile crisis, though presented to the public as a showdown that Kennedy won, was the second, an exercise in abject appeasement. Kennedy had refused the unanimous advice of his generals and admirals to bomb Cuba, and had settled the crisis by giving the Russians what they wanted, the removal of missiles from Turkey. (This was kept quiet, but the people who knew knew.)

        The notion that the Cold War national-security state, which Eisenhower warned against, might have decided to kill the President is not as difficult to credit as one wishes. There were C.I.A. operatives prepared to kill foreign leaders, some of them previously friendly, for acts they didn’t like, and to recruit gangsters to do it, and generals who were eager to invade Cuba even at the risk of nuclear war, and who resented Kennedy for restraining them.

        (A veteran journalist, Jefferson Morley, has been pursuing the trail of a now dead C.I.A. agent named George Joannides through a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit, believing that, at a minimum, the C.I.A. was keeping a much sharper eye on Oswald than it ever wanted known. Relevant documents are supposed to be released in 2017.)

        The future is green: www.greenasteroid.com

        by bogmanoc on Sun Nov 03, 2013 at 06:33:24 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  O.K., fine. An American Hezbollah. (0+ / 0-)

          So big on assassinations that it can hardly contain itself.

          And the Kennedys were players in that game. That $42,000 cash in a bag that was paid to the Vietnamese officers who killed the Diem brothers a couple months before the JFK hit.....

    •  Those aren't theories listed above (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      waterstreet2013, Joieau, franklyn

      They are facts that have mostly been disclosed by the hard work of a few citizen researchers and a couple of journalists.

      I agree that most JFK conspiracy writers didn't pay attention to the facts.  But because of the nature of the conspiracy -- government intelligence -- facts were going to be difficult to come by.

      But DRE bought and paid for by the CIA?  And our own tax money funding the notion that Castro was behind this on the day of the assassination?  If that had been known in 63 or even during the HSCA investigation, might have been a different story.

      BTW, the two of the biggest proponents of the lone nut theory -- Posner and Bugliosi -- have co-signed a letter supporting Jefferson Morley, the WaPo reporter who broke the DRE story, demanding that the CIA release whatever information it has on DRE handler George Joannides.

      The future is green: www.greenasteroid.com

      by bogmanoc on Sun Nov 03, 2013 at 06:21:22 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Exactly. You've got facts. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Remediator, fcvaguy

        Every conspiracy theory consists of facts - and imagination.

        You write "I agree that most JFK conspiracy writers didn't pay attention to the facts." I never said anything remotely like that. ALL conspiracy writers DO pay attention to facts, and they assemble them in whichever way supports their thesis, or stirs up more questions, or gets their book written. You're not only misrepresenting me, but you're missing the point.

        The point is that the facts - and by now there are millions of them - point in any and all directions.

        What you've got is simply more CT, more facts that could fit anywhere in a virtually infinite puzzle.

        When you get actual proof of anything, let us know. For Christ's sake, every CT fan says "This isn't CT, these are FACTS!" And you sound exactly like the rest of them. Shovel this shit on some other site. CT is a bannable offense.

        Dick Cheney 2/14/10: "I was a big supporter of waterboarding" . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . UID: 8519

        by Bob Love on Sun Nov 03, 2013 at 06:54:56 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Agree. A conspiracy theory, even (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Ahianne, fcvaguy, Bob Love

          one gussied up and spit-shined, is still conjecture.  

          Not least, the Kennedy CTs distract us from pieces which examine Kennedy's influence on our national life.   A lot of people hated his guts and then again a lot of people loved him.  

          And the 1960 election, in some key aspects, was the Gore-Bush election 40 years early.  It suggested a sharply divided nation.  

        •  If they didn't want (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          BigAlinWashSt, franklyn

          conspiracy theories, they wouldn't have told the Magic Bullet joke publicly and then classified the data for 75 years (later reduced by the JFK Records Act in 1992 to 25 years). We'll see the held-backs in 2017. The Assassination Records Review Board pointed out in its final report...

          Doubts about the Warren Commission's findings were not restricted to ordinary Americans. Well before 1978, President Johnson, Robert Kennedy, and four of the seven members of the Warren Commission all articulated, if sometimes off the record, some level of skepticism about the Commission's basic findings.[18]
          And the House Select Committee on Assassinations concluded in 1979 that...
          ...Oswald fired shots number one, two, and four, and that an unknown assassin fired shot number three (but missed) from near the corner of a picket fence that was above and to President Kennedy's right front on the Dealey Plaza grassy knoll. [...]
          Seems to me they've been feeding grist to the mill all along. Given what we know today (thanks to brave whistleblowers), this is all just nursery level teeth-cutting stuff. I read last week that the second gunman was one of the SS agents in the follow car. Or, as Conrad Brean said in the movie Wag the Dog...

          "Who killed Kennedy? I read the first draft of the Warren Report. It said Kennedy was killed by a drunk driver."

          90% of Americans polled in January of this year don't believe in Magic Bullets. Most don't care enough for it to be more than just something they don't buy, but them's the statistics. Why get all bent out of shape about people who amuse themselves during hobby time thinking about it and wondering what the real truth might be? Seems pretty harmless to me.

          •  I wonder about people that get all worked up (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Joieau

            about CT's, particularly one this old with this much information available.  But I don't wonder too long.

            "It is easier to pass through the eye of a needle then it is to be an honest politician."

            by BigAlinWashSt on Sun Nov 03, 2013 at 08:54:06 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  What I assumed (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            BigAlinWashSt, Joieau, TexanJane, franklyn

            would be obvious to DailyKosers is the rise of the national security state since JFK with a CIA president, a CIA president's son and his intel agencies lying us into war, and now the NSA jerking us all around.

            But guess not.

            The future is green: www.greenasteroid.com

            by bogmanoc on Sun Nov 03, 2013 at 09:05:53 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  There is a good reason to squelch any CT discussio (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            bogmanoc, Joieau, TexanJane, franklyn

            It is similar to the reason that the NRA will oppose the most basic of gun laws:  once the camel gets his nose under the tent, the rest of the camel is sure to follow.

            But I don't bother any more to try to counter people who ridicule open discussion on the basis of an absurd notion.  It looks hopeless to me.  I'm only here because this morning I heard the following quote, which says it pretty well:

            They talk about conspiracy "theorists" as though conspiracies weren't real. I feel sorry for these people, because I know they have never read a history book, because history is full of conspiracies. In fact, it's hard to come up with a major event in history that wasn't created to some large and significant extent by a conspiracy.... Conspiracies are very real in our history. They are very real in our present day. If you doubt that, just go to any court room and sit there and listen to the cases that come before the judge and before the jury, and a good deal of them involve conspiracies of one kind or another.

            Secrecy is a hot bed of vanity. - Joseph Brodsky They who have put out the people’s eyes reproach them for their blindness. – John Milton 1642

            by geomoo on Sun Nov 03, 2013 at 09:17:10 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Yeah. It's like the most (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              geomoo, Brian B

              widespread and far-reaching 'conspiracy theory' is the one that has somehow managed to convince ostensibly intelligent humans that everything 'important' that happens in the world or in the halls of government is a total accident, a bizarre quirk of individual fate, that no one could possibly have foreseen.

              Probably why the first thing you learn if you join the 'security state' is that there's no such thing as coincidence.

          •  Forensics tests have shown that the ... (0+ / 0-)

            ...so-called "magic bullet" viewpoint is not a joke and that the damage it is said to have caused is entirely within the realm of possibility. That doesn't mean that what is claimed for it DID happen, but the tests should put to rest the viewpoint that it COULDN'T have happened.

            Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

            by Meteor Blades on Sun Nov 03, 2013 at 06:43:43 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Gee, this discussion could go on for a while. (0+ / 0-)

              Let me know when the evidence reaches the level of proof. I'll wait.

              Dick Cheney 2/14/10: "I was a big supporter of waterboarding" . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . UID: 8519

              by Bob Love on Mon Nov 04, 2013 at 01:10:35 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

    •  In-country surveillance is done by the FBI. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      PeterHug

      Not by CIA.

      That includes surveillance of foreign embassy personnel and likely agents.

  •  All I know is that this would have been a much (6+ / 0-)

    different world but for two things:  The assassination of JFK and the election George W. Bush stole from Al Gore.  

    Instead of corporate owned Democrats and corporate owned Republicans destroying our country and middle class while obfuscated or thankfully obstructed by crazy Teapots, we just might have a democratic society with equal opportunity and justice for all.  

    What we need is a Democrat in the White House. Warren 2016

    by dkmich on Sun Nov 03, 2013 at 02:29:00 AM PST

    •  True also of the Lincoln assassination. nt (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      dkmich, waterstreet2013, marina

      Dick Cheney 2/14/10: "I was a big supporter of waterboarding" . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . UID: 8519

      by Bob Love on Sun Nov 03, 2013 at 03:18:06 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I've never been convinced that JFK (5+ / 0-)

      would have accomplished as much on civil rights as Johnson did.  I'm not convinced that it would have been his priority or that he would have succeeded.

      Nor am I convinced that Johnson's team - including Bill Moyers and Ramsay Clark - was more corporatist than Kennedy's.

      •  "The Best and the Brightest".... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Elwood Dowd

        you betcha. They had no interest in the poor, nonwhite, female, et.al.

        Bobby worked for Joe McCarthy. He became a recovering anti-communist/alcoholism-excuse-maker. When MLK was killed, he woke up.

        The other power positions ??? Read the book.

        •  I'm not so much dissing Kennedy (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          waterstreet2013

          as remembering the revolutionary effect Johnson had - and questioning just how replacing Kennedy with Johnson could have served the interests of the status quo.

          Maybe on foreign policy - although I'm not convinced that a second Kennedy term would have changed direction.  But elsewhere? I just don't see it.

          •  JFK's greatest mistake (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Elwood Dowd

            was screwing up the opportunity to make Johnson his lead for Congress.

            The Harvard/Stanford boys didn't get it with Johnson.

            And Johnson was better than they were at damn near everything. If he had cleaned out McNamara, toss the national security team, he'd be remembered quite differently.

      •  There had to be a bone in there (0+ / 0-)

        to throw the Great Unwashed Masses after such a blatant coup. If there's one thing we know today for sure, it's that the 'security state' is primarily concerned about We the People, and putting down any possible popular uprisings against their complete hegemony. [/snark]

    •  I doubt that JFK assassination changed much. (0+ / 0-)

      He started Vietnam and he would have likely continued it. In fact, most Great Society laws wouldn't have passed if he remained President. LBJ did the bidding of oil companies when he was in Congress and Senate but there is no evidence that he continued doing so when he became President.

      •  On Viet Nam, JFK had issued orders to begin (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        FG

        phasing out advisors. It was quietly rescinded after his death.
        I first ran across this in the book, 'Johnny, We Hardly Knew Ye' by Dave Powers and Kenneth O'Donnell.

        We can discuss this and wonder what to do about that, but in the end, the ONLY thing that matters is voter turnout. Ya CAIN'T go to the dance if you AIN'T bought your ticket! Go team go.

        by franklyn on Sun Nov 03, 2013 at 12:03:55 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  It's hard to say what he would have done (0+ / 0-)

          if things got worse. And they were going to get worse for South Vietnam. Johnson largely kept the same foreign policy team as JFK and they were the ones advising him to escalate. That said, JFK managed to overrule the hawks on Cuban missile crisis so it's possible that he would have done the same on Vietnam.

  •  Not unbelievable (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    nuclear winter solstice

    I've watched this unfold for the last 50 years. I believe it will never come out because the main beneficiary/conspirator was LBJ, aided by the CIA and the Mafia.

  •  Misleading (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    cfm, Bob Love, WakeUpNeo

    The one part of this that I am familiar with is this contention that Kennedy has signed a memo to withdraw from Vietnam.  If I remember correctly he had authorized the drawdown of US advisors, because at the time the Pentagon thought the war was being won and therefore the advisors could slowly be pulled out, not that the President had lost faith in the mission.  That's all revisionist history.

    I suspect most of the rest of this is similarly misleading.  

    Cynicism is what passes for insight among the mediocre.

    by Sky Net on Sun Nov 03, 2013 at 02:52:15 AM PST

    •  this is close to the heart of the argument (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      TexanJane, Joieau

      whether or not kennedy wanted to withdraw from Vietnam.

      I suggest watching McNamara's video "fog of war". it has audio of lbj telling McNamara "everytime you and kennedy talked about withdrawing I thought it was wrong".

      you can believe either version, because both sides have plenty of arguments.  

      drones are a cost effective way of generating enough new terrorists that calls to cut military spending will fail.

      by just want to comment on Sun Nov 03, 2013 at 05:37:21 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Diem and his brother (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        bogmanoc

        were assassinated by the CIA just 20 days prior to the Daley Plaza drama. And still it took the Gulf of Tonkin "incident" to get troops committed. Hooray for the NSA.

        Who knows what the truth about this was? It's not like our government has been particularly forthcoming about it.

  •  Secret Servic and Shovel from Grassy Knoll Guys (1+ / 1-)
    Recommended by:
    Remediator
    Hidden by:
    Bob Love

    FWIW, there was a book a few years ago that argued pretty cogently from the ballistic evidence that a secret service agent in the following car actually accidentally discharged his automatic rifle, and fired the shot that killed Kennedy.

    From the Wikipedia article itnro:

    Mortal Error: The Shot That Killed JFK is a 1992 non-fiction book by Bonar Menninger describing a theory by sharpshooter, gunsmith and ballistics expert Howard Donahue that a Secret Service agent accidentally fired the shot that actually killed President John F. Kennedy.
    None of which detracts from the fact that Oswald was the gunman, and did shoot from his perch, and probably hit Kennedy as well.

    Thus leaving hanging for history to resolve, was there a conspiracy or not on top of an accidental discharge?

    Of course my favorite take on this occurs in one of my all time favorite action movies, Shooter, starring Mark Wahlberg.

    Just watch the first 47 seconds and revel in the first 47 seconds on conspiracy theories:

    "You've got to be very careful if you don't know where you are going, because you might not get there." “When you come to the fork in the road, take it.” --Yogi Berra

    by HeartlandLiberal on Sun Nov 03, 2013 at 04:13:48 AM PST

    •  The gentleman with the glasses (0+ / 0-)

      speaking to Wahlberg --

      The scene is pretty nicely done film-making.  If only Wahlberg would speak up a bit.  

      In the gentleman with the glasses we get a marginal insider's shovel.  He strongly implies that his own fingerprints would have been on that shovel's handle when certain individuals were buried in unmarked graves, etc.  

      It's a juciy piece of acting and writing.  

    •  CT is unwelcome on daily kos. (0+ / 0-)

      You should know that by now.

      Dick Cheney 2/14/10: "I was a big supporter of waterboarding" . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . UID: 8519

      by Bob Love on Sun Nov 03, 2013 at 06:59:30 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Oh, get a life. This was obviously some humor. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Joieau, cville townie

        And on the serious side, you cannot avoid discussions of various conspiracy theories, because for many they are driving forces which influence behaviors.

        And some of those behaviors results in direct actions that affect the lives (and deaths) of fellow citizens.

        Need I point out the info found on the person of the LAX shooter from the past few days?

        Frankly, imagine how hard it is for me to talk with relatives who I left behind in Alabama?

        Some of them have gone so far deep into conspiracy theories of such nutcakes as Alex Jones I might as well be talking to a brick wall and trying to reason with it.

        "You've got to be very careful if you don't know where you are going, because you might not get there." “When you come to the fork in the road, take it.” --Yogi Berra

        by HeartlandLiberal on Sun Nov 03, 2013 at 07:45:10 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  If ever a more obvious misuse of hide rating (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Joieau, historys mysteries, franklyn

      ... than hide rating this comment, I don't what it might be.

      I mean really, get a grip people.

      Don't lecture me on conspiracy theory and then abuse the hide rating privilege on a comment like this that is a simple statement of fact building on the diary about a theory that was widely publicized, and the posting of what is obviously a piece of humorous fiction in a movie.

      Good grief.

      "You've got to be very careful if you don't know where you are going, because you might not get there." “When you come to the fork in the road, take it.” --Yogi Berra

      by HeartlandLiberal on Sun Nov 03, 2013 at 07:47:49 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Ever shoot a bolt action rifle ??? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Joieau, TexanJane

      Try getting off 4 shots quickly with a bolt action rifle.

      Then try to hit a small moving target with no practice sequences. Even professionals find this impossible, first try.

      Btw: the first shot is the most accurate doing rapid fire. Every time. Except once at Dallas in 1963.

      Dallas police officers reported recovering another rifle from the roof of the School Depository building. It was not a bolt action like Oswald's el cheapo Mannlicher-Carcano. That rifle disappeared. Dallas police officers also reported that one rifle found down inside the school building was a Mauser with a 4/18 scope. That rifle also disappeared.

      We should mourn JFK along with RFK and MLK. The country lost more than we can imagine.

      •  Actually, I have shot a bolt action rifle (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Musial, Joieau

        And I frankly do not believe Oswald or anyone could have fired as many shots in rapid succession with such a rifle, and certainly not with such accuracy.

        "You've got to be very careful if you don't know where you are going, because you might not get there." “When you come to the fork in the road, take it.” --Yogi Berra

        by HeartlandLiberal on Sun Nov 03, 2013 at 12:47:41 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Obama did it (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    WakeUpNeo, waterstreet2013

    Happy just to be alive

    by exlrrp on Sun Nov 03, 2013 at 04:21:48 AM PST

  •  All of you denialists, answer me this. (0+ / 0-)

    Why wasn't JFK seen alive after 11/22/63, if he wasn't killed by a security state coup?

    You know, I sometimes think if I could see, I'd be kicking a lot of ass. -Stevie Wonder at the Glastonbury Festival, 2010

    by Rich in PA on Sun Nov 03, 2013 at 04:35:15 AM PST

  •  One thing for sure... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Bob Love

    there was a gun involved.

    Otherwise, HR for CT.

  •  G. Robert Blakey was the chief counsel to HSCA, (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bogmanoc, Joieau

    concluded the CIA had systematically misled him, Joannides being one example. Joannides had organized the CIA front group that Oswald had protested against. Joannides a potential target of the investigation, was assigned by CIA to assist Blakey. The HSCA concluded that a conspiracy could not be ruled out. I guess the reason why official committee conclusions are considered CT isn't because they lack credibility, but because they can get partisans 50 years later sidetracked on issues that historians have long declined to resolve. The central evidence will be locked up for several more decades, for no apparent reason other than to protect known governmental relationships with the 1963 participants.    

    •  And that's OK because....? nt (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Joieau

      The future is green: www.greenasteroid.com

      by bogmanoc on Sun Nov 03, 2013 at 06:23:43 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Not OK, (0+ / 0-)

        the fragmentary evidence complicates things. Oswald's defense that he was the patsy is largely supported by the weight of informal insider accounts, public opinion understands it as a conspiracy. But there are contradictory theories, Garrison high-level versus Roselli rogue mid-level. RFK's failure to get the nomination is perhaps as significant as that of JFK. Nixon once revealed in an uncomfortable personal sidebar in an interview his own thinking, that LBJ always wanted to be number one. Nixon was notably obsessed by the Bay of Pigs operation which he had supervised as VP, and of LBJ's surveillance on him, the subject of Watergate. Pretty complex. What is clearly not CT is King's assassination by conspiracy proven at trial, a fact of Black history which supports your thesis without the evidentiary hurdles.  

        •  OK (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Musial

          But there have been "new" revelations based on evidence discovered in the millions of records released since the JFK Assassinations Records Act.

          Some researchers and journalists are changing how we view the assassination and JFK's relationship with the national security state.  In that context, it all comes together.

          IMO, if the CIA was within a mile of the assassination, they are the culprits.  They were much closer that and the links above tell only a small part of their guilt.

          Visit www.jfkfacts.org  Tremendous site.

          The future is green: www.greenasteroid.com

          by bogmanoc on Sun Nov 03, 2013 at 05:15:36 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  Only book on the JFK 'conspiracy' (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Musial

      I ever got all the way through was The Man Who Knew Too Much by Dick Russell. Which is saying something, considering it was 576 pages (I was very bored in that time period). About a double/triple CIA/KGB agent supposedly hired to kill Oswald before the assassination could be accomplished. Almost Ludlum-esque in its plot-twisting, quite enjoyable. There are of course dozens of others out there, I'd guess there's a market for them.

      Do I claim I know the details of who killed Kennedy and why? Nope. That's the only consistency in this 50-year old mystery.

  •  If You Look at How the Whole Country's (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Bob Love, Joieau, waterstreet2013

    fallen apart for the masses between then and now --a few particular demographics partially excepted-- we've got a situation where it's unarguable that we got the outcomes of a paranoid conspiracy theory.

    Right or wrong, I think the rebuttals need to lose the adjective "paranoid."

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Sun Nov 03, 2013 at 05:18:44 AM PST

    •  I'd rework that: (0+ / 0-)

      "we got the outcomes of a paranoid conspiracy theory" suggests that a paranoid conspiracy theory actually produced these outcomes, when I think you mean to say that the outcomes are indistinguishable from the results of a paranoid conspiracy theory.

      I agree with your point, though, that not all these theories are "paranoid". Some are likely to be true.

      The problem with CT, however, is that it subsists on endless speculation about matters of which we have far too little knowledge. It's interesting, it's discussable, but until real evidence shows up it's all inconsequential.

      Dick Cheney 2/14/10: "I was a big supporter of waterboarding" . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . UID: 8519

      by Bob Love on Sun Nov 03, 2013 at 07:10:25 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Progress, Bob (0+ / 0-)
        I agree with your point, though, that not all these theories are "paranoid". Some are likely to be true.

        The problem with CT, however, is that it subsists on endless speculation about matters of which we have far too little knowledge. It's interesting, it's discussable, but until real evidence shows up it's all inconsequential.

        Problem is, there's been millions of files released and new facts have emerged.  Our knowledge has increased.  All the sites linked above have that additional knowledge to make a more informed judgment on the assassination.

        The future is green: www.greenasteroid.com

        by bogmanoc on Sun Nov 03, 2013 at 12:01:39 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  lbj to hoover (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bogmanoc, Joieau, waterstreet2013

    we cant be checking up on every shooting scrape in the country

    http://www.history-matters.com/...

    ruth paines sister, who she visited on the same trip she picked up Oswald's wife, cia psychologist, revealed by accidental release about 20 years ago. she said under oath she did not know what she did for a living.  also her father had ties.

    oswalds friend demohrenschildt, cia ties, wrote a book shortly before he killed himself.

    Oswald a radar operator at an air force base that based u2 planes. worlds biggest loser.

    lbj to McNamara - everytime you and kennedy talked about withdrawing I thought you were wrong - the fog of war.

    Truman, wrote an op-ed in the days after the assassination, almost impossible to find on internet but not a myth - cia is out of control, should not be operational, nobody knows what they do.

    dulles, fired by kennedy, appointed one of 7 warren commission members, visits Truman hoping to stop him.

    I don't see how any open minded person can actually read both sides, read bugliosi then read the other side, how they actually conclude there is nothing to see here.

    drones are a cost effective way of generating enough new terrorists that calls to cut military spending will fail.

    by just want to comment on Sun Nov 03, 2013 at 06:05:17 AM PST

    •  Agreed (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Joieau, waterstreet2013, Nisi Prius

      and kinda amazed at the reaction here on DailyKos.

      The future is green: www.greenasteroid.com

      by bogmanoc on Sun Nov 03, 2013 at 06:25:38 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  CT has been banned on this site for 9 years or so. (0+ / 0-)

        I'm kinda amazed you didn't know that.

        Dick Cheney 2/14/10: "I was a big supporter of waterboarding" . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . UID: 8519

        by Bob Love on Sun Nov 03, 2013 at 07:14:15 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  This is the Mother of All (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          just want to comment, Nisi Prius

          [Amerikan] Conspiracy Theories. Which is probably why the House Special Committee on Assassinations found in 1978-79 that there was most likely a conspiracy, and more than one shooter.

          That's as "Official" as Warren, which nobody with an IQ above 70 believed in the first place. And an "official" piece of history regarding this matter.

          Lighten the fuck up. Talking about the JFK assassination and its remaining loose ends in the 50th anniversary month isn't going to destroy DKos, I promise.

      •  they want to play in the mainstream (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        bogmanoc, Joieau

        and the mainstream has rules what you can bring up.

        they don't want to be discredited or left out.

        the fbi agent in dallas, james hosty has a good book. since he was one of the official hoover scapegoats, he was pretty mad and told some truth although he didn't really have any high level information. assignment Oswald. he says the warren commission was a joke. he says there was definitely a coverup. of course he thought the conspiracy started in Moscow.

        so yeah the fbi agent assigned to Oswald said there was a conspiracy.  but he was censured.  I guess he would be hr-ed here.

        drones are a cost effective way of generating enough new terrorists that calls to cut military spending will fail.

        by just want to comment on Sun Nov 03, 2013 at 07:49:37 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  I wonder if I could even discuss the Lincoln (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Joieau

        assassination here where I believe 7 people were executed for their conspiracy in it.

        •  Apparently not. (0+ / 0-)

          Here in Amerika, all things happen by accident and/or the psychotic actions of loners. Everything. Except 9/11. That was a conspiracy, but because Amerika doesn't believe in conspiracies, no one could have foreseen it.

      •  Read it 'n weep................ (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        bogmanoc, Joieau, franklyn

        Harry S. Truman, former President of the United States:

        ....For some time I have been disturbed by the way CIA has been diverted from its original assignment. It has become an operational and at times a policy-making arm of the Government. This has led to trouble and may have compounded our difficulties in several explosive areas.

        I never had any thought that when I set up the CIA that it would be injected into peacetime cloak and dagger operations. Some of the complications and embarrassment I think we have experienced are in part attributable to the fact that this quiet intelligence arm of the President has been so removed from its intended role that it is being interpreted as a symbol of sinister and mysterious foreign intrigue—and a subject for cold war enemy propaganda.

        With all the nonsense put out by Communist propaganda about "Yankee imperialism," "exploitive capitalism," "war-mongering," "monopolists," in their name-calling assault on the West, the last thing we needed was for the CIA to be seized upon as something akin to a subverting influence in the affairs of other people.

        I well knew the first temporary director of the CIA, Adm. Souers, and the later permanent directors of the CIA, Gen. Hoyt Vandenberg and Allen Dulles. These were men of the highest character, patriotism and integrity—and I assume this is true of all those who continue in charge. But there are now some searching questions that need to be answered. I, therefore, would like to see the CIA be restored to its original assignment as the intelligence arm of the President, and that whatever else it can properly perform in that special field—and that its operational duties be terminated or properly used elsewhere.

        Replace CIA with CIA/NSA and you've got close to 100% of what Edward Snowden has been saying. Guess that makes "Give 'Em Heck" Harry Truman a dangerous radical.

        December 22, 1963 - Limit CIA Role To Intelligence - written by Truman, issued to the public and published widely including Missouri papers and WaPo.

        •  i got a copy from the truman library (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          waterstreet2013, Joieau

          I had read about this but could only find a single reference to it on a jfk assassination website, so I wrote to them and they sent it to me. it was only in one edition of the post.   Truman went even further in the book "strictly speaking".

          from other sources I have read that his notes indicated he began writing this only a week after the assassination.

          drones are a cost effective way of generating enough new terrorists that calls to cut military spending will fail.

          by just want to comment on Sun Nov 03, 2013 at 09:23:33 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  I was 12 in November '63. (0+ / 0-)

        Part of my first awakenings to the political world, father retired from U.S. Navy the year before so it was our (we siblings) first experience of life among the 'general public'. When I watched Oswald get assassinated on live teevee at my friend Hela's house (recent Estonian immigrants) because we weren't allowed to watch at home, I knew we'd never get the truth.

        Have I spent my life buried in obscure data trying to convince people around me that we've never been told the truth? Nope. Not even a good conversation piece. Nobody I know believes in Magic Bullets. What reason would we have to talk about it?

  •  If there's hard evidence of others' (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Bob Love

    involvement in Kennedy's murder, I'll read it the same as the next person, but -- and it is a big 'but' indeed -- absent that hard evidence, it remains beyond our capacity to know.

    This week's issue of The New Yorker has an interesting piece on Kennedy.  It's worth a look.  The tone it strikes, IMO, is about right.  

    And then there was Strelka, one of the dogs the Soviets sent into space.  Strelka gave birth to a litter of pups.  Kruschev gave one of the puppies to Caroline Kennedy, then a very small child and daughter of the young U.S. president.  The gift of a puppy is a warm gesture in the middle of a Cold War.

    •  JFK (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Joieau

      was on a clear path to détente with the Soviets, normalization with Cuba and leaving Vietnam.  There is new evidence on all 3 accounts on that as well.

      The future is green: www.greenasteroid.com

      by bogmanoc on Sun Nov 03, 2013 at 06:27:32 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  But none of those points individually (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Meteor Blades

        or all collectively equal Let's Kill The President.

        There will always be circumstantial information.  That is all that is available to conspiracy theorists.  They work in fragments of a possible whole.  

        The grassy knoll is gone.  We will likely never know who if anyone was on that knoll with ill intent toward Kennedy.  We have no documentation which inarguably incriminates any other source for his murder.  

        Kennedy was not a place-holder personality.  He would of course have pissed a lot of people off.  That does not equal evidence that a security state conspiracy against him is demonstrable fact.

        •  I think you're wrong (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Joieau

          Only a handful of US intel knew about Kostinov.  One or all had to be part of the conspiracy getting an imposter Oswald to confirm his meeting with KGB head of assassinations, driving the Warren Commission to the lone-nut theory to ostensibly avoid WWIII.

          The future is green: www.greenasteroid.com

          by bogmanoc on Sun Nov 03, 2013 at 06:39:44 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  It doesn't split on who's right and wrong, (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Bob Love, Joieau, WakeUpNeo, Meteor Blades

            bogmanoc.  

            IMO it splits on whether hard evidence demonstrably incriminates individuals or entities in the murder of a president.  

            Your diary doesn't present any persuasive evidence that this is the case.  

            •  Well OK (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Joieau

              it's a short diary from an interested Internet guy.  But IMO, the evidence above is damning enough and there's plenty more where that came from.

              The future is green: www.greenasteroid.com

              by bogmanoc on Sun Nov 03, 2013 at 06:56:54 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  A large dumpster can hold a lot of trash, (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Bob Love, WakeUpNeo

                so the plenty more where that came from might very well require said large dumpster.  

                But if among that plenty more there is inarguable incriminating evidence, my guess is that you'd have used it already.

                •  Geesus (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Joieau

                  When the head of the FBI tells the new President about some spook shit going down in Mexico City, and the President uses that spook shit to get Chief Justice Warren to conduct the PR pablum of the Warren Commission, that's not just any regular old evidence from the crime scene at Dealey Plaza.   That's Machiavellian intrigue played out right in front of our eyes.

                  The future is green: www.greenasteroid.com

                  by bogmanoc on Sun Nov 03, 2013 at 09:13:02 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

              •  The problem is that half what you present as... (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Remediator

                ...evidence has been long ago debunked.

                Just one example: Oswald did not have a top secret clearance; he had two steps down from that: "confidential." Even his supervisor only had a "secret" clearance.

                Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

                by Meteor Blades on Sun Nov 03, 2013 at 07:11:33 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  not half (0+ / 0-)

                  I don't see the comment you refer to, but certainly your objection is not quantitatively correct.

                  Anthony summers has a new book coming, not in your life. he has dropped many of the less credible story lines, he is a pretty objective guy.  i think you will still find most of the diarists claims to be valid.  the mexico trip seems to be his point of interest.

                  Oswald's supervisor testified before the warren commission, i think he said hundreds of hours were involved changing codes and frequencies when Oswald defected. Oswald was not at a high level, but he did somehow learn Russian and was a radar operator, not specifically for the u2 flights, but at the same airport.

                  the scenario that makes sense is that he was a fake defector. its a theory. just like the nsa is scooping up everything.

                  drones are a cost effective way of generating enough new terrorists that calls to cut military spending will fail.

                  by just want to comment on Mon Nov 04, 2013 at 05:23:21 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  OK (0+ / 0-)

                  I'll accept that.  

                  But story that has come out in the past few years, that the CIA-backed group that tangled with Oswald in New Orleans and the refusal of the agency to hand over documents surrounding their handler, is compelling and disturbing, I think.  

                  You have to really comprehend how huge that is.  For years, Garrison et al smelled CIA participation in the New Orleans stunt.  CIA, including top officials like Helms, denied denied denied.  Now they can't deny anymore.  They're are just denying additional documents.

                  And the imposter Oswald wiretap and letter mentioning Kostinov proves, to my mind, a clumsy set-up by conspirators.  That one wiretap sealed the lone nut direction of the Warren Commission because of a potential link to the Soviets.

                  Jeff Morley, the former WaPo reporter, is on it and credible.  And he's backed by Posner and Buglioisi in his lawsuits with the CIA, which I also think adds to his credibility.

                  The future is green: www.greenasteroid.com

                  by bogmanoc on Mon Nov 04, 2013 at 11:43:37 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  One more thing (0+ / 0-)

                  unless I'm mistaken, someone added a tag to my post that I did not:  Hoax

                  I deleted it about an hour ago.

                  The future is green: www.greenasteroid.com

                  by bogmanoc on Tue Nov 05, 2013 at 05:53:55 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

        •  There is a lot of information (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          bogmanoc, Nisi Prius

          out there. Large amounts of Warren investigative files have been released over the years, and there were interviews by journalists and unallied investigators that survive just fine. There was Jim Garrison's investigation and prosecution in N'Orleans. It's not like there's not a lot of data. It's that the 'official story' about Magic Bullets is what it is. Still laughing at us in the history books and unlikely ever to change. Whole generations have been born since, they don't care.

          Everybody awake and aware in this country has no illusions about the existence or non-existence of the "security state conspiracy" these days. Some are curious enough to try and figure out when it first started, not accepting that 9/11 was really more than a convenient public selling point.

          Just a matter of how far back they go, and how hard they want to look. The House Special Commission on Assassination concluded in '79 that there was a conspiracy and at least one 'extra' gunman on the grassy knoll. That report's not what kids get in history class (where it's still Magic Bullets), but it qualifies as legitimate U.S. government investigative findings. As historical as Warren.

          I think the whole "Oooh, scary CT!" thing is a head game they play to fine amusement. But not something that actually applies to this particular conspiracy.

          •  It does not persuade by demonstrable evidence (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            WakeUpNeo

            and it does not eclipse innocence absent proven guilt.

            If there's evidence -- real evidence and not conjecture -- let's see it.

            •  What's out there (0+ / 0-)

              is out there. Voluminously so, considering the number of books and articles that have been published (ignoring Hollywood). There's a whole half a century of stuff there, I sincerely doubt even Markos would say not so.

              There are CT theories, and questions about conspiracies, for which there are intriguing answers from a number of directions. The mysteries still surrounding the assassination of John F. Kennedy can't be made to go away just by clapping for Magic Bullet fairies at this late date. To demand so in a simple discussion of it in the month of its 50th anniversary is pointless and frankly insulting.

              You could look for yourself, but would rather try to apply a questionable authoritarian edict instead, presumably because it makes you feel important. Or admirably self-deluded. Or ignorant by gleeful choice. Or hopelessly paranoid of what the 'security state' (the one we now know about thanks to Snowden, et al.) might think if they knew you harbored doubts about Magic Bullets likely older than you are. Or something.

              Whatever. You can move on now. Nobody cares.

            •  And is this... (0+ / 0-)
              It does not persuade by demonstrable evidence and it does not eclipse innocense absent proven guilt
              ...anything like...
              It puts the lotion on its skin
              ?

              By the way, who do you think is being 'proved' or 'not proved' guilty here, to whom the judicial presumption would apply?

  •  Ya want proof of a conspiracy? Here (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Sky Net
  •  My paternal grandfather collected guns. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Bob Love, WakeUpNeo

    My grandfather was alive in 1963.  

    John Kennedy was killed by guns.

    Therefore, my grandfather killed John Kennedy.  

  •  The problem with JFK conspiracy theories (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    WakeUpNeo

    is that there are so many of them.
       There is plausible evidence that the old time Mafia arranged the murder, or that E. Howard Hunt and/or various anti-Castro spooks did it, or that Castro arranged it.
       And those are just the main contenders. A KKK plot was certainly possible in those days. In the days after the civil rights march on Washington, I heard several people say that "somebody ought to shoot that Kennedy."
       Maybe there is a "Murder on the Orient Express" solution here, and they all got together to do it.
       Sadly, the passage of time and the reluctance of the original investigators to pursue the truth have ensured that we'll never know the answers.

    •  You should really check out the work (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Musial

      of former WaPo reporter Jefferson Morley before you assume the answer can't be found:  www.jfkfacts.org

      As I've said, even lone nutters Posner and Bugliosi have backed him on his fight with the CIA for additional files on Joannides.

      The future is green: www.greenasteroid.com

      by bogmanoc on Sun Nov 03, 2013 at 09:15:35 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Sure thing, this is CT. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    just want to comment, Joieau

    Once a year this is the one event of recent history that deserves a pass on CT complaints.

    -- We lost a president.

    -- We got tossed into Vietnam, like being thrown down a well into brimstone or lye.

    -- LBJ worked wonders getting the social agenda through Congress, but we still lost our way as a country in Vietnam and worse after Nixon won in 1968.

    -- The gunnery model stated in by the Warren Commission is frankly impossible to match up with the Zapruder film and audio of the assassination.

    December 22, 1963. Harry Truman wrote his own take on covert government power: "Limit CIA Role To Intelligence."

    Harry could smell rats like nobody. He invented the bxllshxt meter for his wartime Committee to Investigate the National Defense. Trust large-scale capitalists ??? Their allies in government? Let 'em run wild? Not exactly.

  •  The shallow and brainwashed people hr'ing (3+ / 0-)

    a 50 year old conspiracy are something else.  I wonder how many know that a congressional committee confirmed it was a conspiracy.

    "It is easier to pass through the eye of a needle then it is to be an honest politician."

    by BigAlinWashSt on Sun Nov 03, 2013 at 08:48:48 AM PST

  •  HR. (0+ / 0-)

    What I learned recently.

    #1 FAQ:

    Do not troll rate people for expressing a contrary opinion, so long as it is expressed in a civilized fashion. The exceptions are for conservative talking points or debunked or false information; this isn't a site for conservatives, they have entire swaths of the internet in which they can regale each other with their reality-impaired fantasies.
    IMO, nothing I've read in this diary applies.

    I concur that, so-called, CT's should in no way disrupt the normal business of Daily Kos. As far as I can see, this hasn't.
    Hide rating can be a horrible thing to the person that is on the receiving end. I have never done it and never will under any circumstances. That's just me, and each to their own.

    We can discuss this and wonder what to do about that, but in the end, the ONLY thing that matters is voter turnout. Ya CAIN'T go to the dance if you AIN'T bought your ticket! Go team go.

    by franklyn on Sun Nov 03, 2013 at 01:12:10 PM PST

    •  Recently learned... (0+ / 0-)

      Conspiracy theories

      Extraordinary claims require evidence. If you don't have evidence, don't make the claim. So such things as "Bush was behind (or let happen) 9-11 attacks", or "the Mossad executed the London Tube bombings", or "Diebold stole the 2004 elections" are not allowed. Linking to discredited conspiracy sites isn't "providing evidence". If you want to trade in unsubstantiated craziness, you are in luck! The internet has about a million resources for you. Daily Kos just isn't one of them.
      That's just kos, and each to their own.

      Courtesy of just one among "The shallow and brainwashed people..."

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