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Do we exorcize from our government and those that defend? It is pure evil in its actions and I could find no other word to be used to describe the actions that need to be taken.

Our government, your government has been practicing the art of death and destruction for decades. It has fed the beast that is the 1% for decades. It has shown for decades that it cares nothing for those it purports to represent. They steal your money to fund the machine, they spy on you, they demand adherence to unlawful laws and they treat you like mushrooms.

At what point?

Republicans are bad!!! Yeah whatever.

Most of us here have been aroud since the fifties or sixties, Granted some have been around longer and others are just now getting their feet wet. Look around pay attention to not our lifetimes but the actions of this nation since it's inception.

Looking around at the acceptance, the defense and approach of what has happened of late makes my neck hurt from head shaking.

To be clear this is not about the current administration but about the acceptance for decades of the status quo. Progress it's a strange word because people hold differing opinions of the meaning. Some think small steps matter others think why not try harder and take a leap. Both could be right at any given moment but for either to condemn the other at every turn is why we are not only stuck in the same place but actually are losing ground. How many times have you heard "the American people say"? How often has that been true? The "American people" actually are on our side yet we elect people that are scared of their own shadows.

At what point.?

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Comment Preferences

  •  Uh, How do you know (13+ / 0-)

    The American people are on our side?  I live in AZ, and I can tell you the majority are not on our side.

    I might also add that I have accepted nothing.  I fight for progressive change...and at least here in AZ, I lose...and keep fighting.

    Your diary sounds like someone who believes they have the right to win, without all the hard fucking work, and loss, that winning demands.

    "Empty vessels make the loudest sound, they have the least wit and are the greatest blabbers" Plato

    by Empty Vessel on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 06:14:02 PM PST

    •  I do deserve to win EV (7+ / 0-)

      because when I win so does the rest of the world.

      And yes they do agree with us no matter whether they realize it or not. My sister married to a hard rightwinger when in discussion actually admits that fact. It's the policies, only when the personalities are introduced does the divide intrude

      Victim of the system~Bob Marley

      by LaEscapee on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 06:20:36 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Um, generalizing from interacting with a single (3+ / 0-)

        person, particularly your brother in law, isn't a sound basis for any broad political judgements. It's certainly no proof of what the majority thinks.

        Nothing human is alien to me.

        by WB Reeves on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 06:26:53 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  First (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          churchylafemme, poligirl, triv33

          it was my sister

          Secondly

          Hahaha

          Victim of the system~Bob Marley

          by LaEscapee on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 06:28:49 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  I want to add (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          poligirl

          you and those that express this type of sentiment are referenced in the diary

          Victim of the system~Bob Marley

          by LaEscapee on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 06:31:40 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Well, that's no worse than... (5+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Cassiodorus, DeadHead, CenPhx, poligirl, triv33

          generalizing based on populations in Phoenix, or whatever part of Arizona Empty Vessel lives in, but I guess his anecdotes are okay with you. Phoenix to him represents the entire nation.

          I lived in Tucson once, which is the southern part of the state that is much more on the left than Phoenix.

          I now live in the lefty Portland. Leave us to ourselves here in my city, and we'll have a revolution next week. It all depends on what you see outside your own window. You live in the South, if I recall correctly.

          I know a few right wing poor working class types, and frankly, I think they would really like my kind of non-state solution, once they experienced it for themselves.

          Full employment, better housing, real universal health care, a voice in their community that really matters, no more bosses...

          Yeah, they would hate it, once they experienced the freedom and higher standard of living.

          "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

          by ZhenRen on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 07:08:12 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  ok, i deal with wingers all the time and by far (6+ / 0-)

          when you discuss simple policies with them without the party bullshit, just policy talk, they actually do agree on it. and that's not from one, that's from not only interaction with the folks around me (i'm in really red Louisiana) but also from discussions with my friends at large that are all over the place, many of them right wing (i grew up in a very right wing area too).

          it's when you talk to the regular folks without all teh media bullshit and the party bullshit and the my team your team bullshit and the polls say bullshit that you can get the story. there will always be militant party folks but most people just want to get by and want their lives and their families lives to be decent.

          who knows, maybe you might be surprised.

          "The further a society drifts from truth, the more it will hate those that speak it." ~George Orwell "When it is dark enough, you can see the stars." ~Charles Beard

          by poligirl on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 07:46:36 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  You shouldn't make assumptions about (0+ / 0-)

            the experience of others.

            Why would you assume I don't talk to "regular folks"? I do it every day and have done for years. The first lesson this teaches is that the definition of "regular folks" depends entirely on where you are at a particular moment.

            In my neighborhood the "regular folks" are Black and working class. On the north side of town they're white and mostly affluent. Depending on where you are, they can be white, Black, Latino or Asian. Rich, poor or in between.

            When it comes to politics I've rubbed shoulders with Liberals, Conservatives, Moderates, "Libertarians", Communists, Socialists, Klansmen, anarchists, Nazis, antifascists, Birchers, Democrats, Republicans, Greens, Dominionists, Quaker pacifists and others.

            I don't know what your experience has been but you might be surprised at some of the things I've heard, seen and learned.

            Nothing human is alien to me.

            by WB Reeves on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 03:15:37 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  ummm, my comment was about me and my (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              joegoldstein, ZhenRen, JVolvo

              experiences, not yours. i thought that was sort of clear.

              and my second paragraph is a generalization but a very broad one:

              it's when you talk to the regular folks without all teh media bullshit and the party bullshit and the my team your team bullshit and the polls say bullshit that you can get the story. there will always be militant party folks but most people just want to get by and want their lives and their families lives to be decent.
              so you seem to be challenging that paragraph. which sentence do you think is off, or way out of your experience? people just don't want to get by and don't want their lives and their families' lives to be decent? cuz i think that's pretty universal no?

              and i'm not talking about talking politics with people, i'm talking about purposefully removing politics from the conversation and talking just policy. that can be done by either directly talking it out or indirectly taken out by leading the conversation. to be honest, quite a few people i've talked to like this i have no idea what their politics are, but i do know how to talk strictly policy and that's what i'm talking about. it seems you're talking about talking politics with folks.

              and my corner of the world is roughly 49/49 black/white with the remaining 2 a mix of others. i've got poor, working class, a few remaining middle classers, and a few affluent folks. (i'm a property manager, so i see a wide variety.)

              sure you will get a few folks who just can't separate policy from politics and those are gonna be either the choir or lost causes, but remarkably, most people are fairly open about policy with the biggest exception in my experience being immigration issues.

              like i said, i'm talking about my experiences, not yours. clearly ym does v and you seem to talk politics more than policy if you can just rattle off how many different ideologies you've met. but for me, that's the kind of thing that inhibits policy discussion, unless of course you are talking for debate purposes only.

              i stand by my second paragraph and find it sad that you think that people don't want to get by and just have decent lives for them and their families. that makes me sad. sigh...

              "The further a society drifts from truth, the more it will hate those that speak it." ~George Orwell "When it is dark enough, you can see the stars." ~Charles Beard

              by poligirl on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 07:49:53 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  You know, I thought this was a pretty good (0+ / 0-)

                reply until i got to your last paragraph. It reminded me of the last paragraph of your previous post:

                it's when you talk to the regular folks without all teh media bullshit and the party bullshit and the my team your team bullshit and the polls say bullshit that you can get the story. there will always be militant party folks but most people just want to get by and want their lives and their families lives to be decent.

                who knows, maybe you might be surprised.

                (Emphasis added)

                So tell me, what was the point of that last sentence if not to insinuate that I don't talk with "regular folks" and to privilege your own subjective experience above my ostensible ignorance? It makes a bit of hash of your claim that:

                like i said, i'm talking about my experiences, not yours
                Similarly, your final paragraph above engages in misrepresentation:
                i stand by my second paragraph and find it sad that you think that people don't want to get by and just have decent lives for them and their families. that makes me sad. sigh..
                Evidently you don't stand by your final sentence since you chose to leave that part out.

                Of course I never expressed an opinion remotely resembling this caricature. It is, in fact, a point that I agree with.

                What I don't agree with is your assuming that your experience is more than partial and subjective. Here's another example:

                you seem to talk politics more than policy if you can just rattle off how many different ideologies you've met.  
                Actually, I came in contact with all of these ideologies in the course of a life spent in grassroots and community organizing. You know, dealing with people's immediate concerns. That you would presume otherwise underlines the limitations of such generalizing.

                Nothing human is alien to me.

                by WB Reeves on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 03:00:41 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  and if your conversation is about ideology then (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  JVolvo

                  you have politics as the topic. i'm talking about talking policy without the politics. you seem to not be able to separate the two.

                  i didn't insinuate that you didn't talk to regular folks. i insinuated that you likely, like most people who love politics, talk to them about politics which is different from what i'm talking about. that's why i said you might be surprised.

                  i give up. you don't understand what i am saying and are absolutely *sure* that i must be dinging you or something. you want to fight. i gave my personal take and you slammed that as somehow being a ding on you and then you take my last reply as teh same thing. and i did ding you a bit there in the last one in saying that damn, it's like you're disagreeing with my last paragraph which was broad enough to be fairly universal.

                  you want to fight. i don't. i'm sorry you can't see what i'm trying to explain. i don't know how else to explain it. a whole lot of people have difficulty separating policy from politics in discussion and i guess that's likely the case - i guess it's not understandable to a lot of folks.

                  i'll just leave with that i've got a lot of mileage on my shoes in canvassing and i'm damn good at it and part of the reason i believe is that i do consciously separate the politics from it.

                  "The further a society drifts from truth, the more it will hate those that speak it." ~George Orwell "When it is dark enough, you can see the stars." ~Charles Beard

                  by poligirl on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 06:50:53 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I don't want to fight (0+ / 0-)

                    and this passive aggressive nonsense is really tiresome.

                    Think whatever you like. Judging from the fact that you uprated Zhen's fictitious screed elsewhere in this diary, you'd probably do that in any case.

                    Nothing human is alien to me.

                    by WB Reeves on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 07:12:41 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  clearly not tiresome enough to stop you from (0+ / 0-)

                      commenting, lol.

                      go ahead, i know you want the last word. :D

                      "The further a society drifts from truth, the more it will hate those that speak it." ~George Orwell "When it is dark enough, you can see the stars." ~Charles Beard

                      by poligirl on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 08:02:23 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  ... (0+ / 0-)

                      Wow

                      Retired Pie Warrior. Substance over Sh*t Flinging (as best as I am able). Sarcasm for - and derision of - True Believers / Entitlement "Reformers" / NSA cheerleaders (yes, significant overlap) still available 24/7, you betcha!

                      by JVolvo on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 09:27:36 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

  •  Couldn't we just stock up on crosses and garlic? (8+ / 0-)

    It worked in those old horror movies.

    “All governments lie, but disaster lies in wait for countries whose officials smoke the same hashish they give out.” – I.F. Stone

    by Cassiodorus on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 06:14:02 PM PST

  •  I'm all for righteous rants and all, (6+ / 0-)

    but sometimes a little specificity and concreteness goes a long way; is in fact more productively radical.

    "Trust me... I've been right before." ~ Tea party patriot

    by Calvino Partigiani on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 06:20:10 PM PST

  •  I don't disagree with what you have written (7+ / 0-)

    except for one thing and that is that we have the American people behind us, because I don't think that we do. I think we have a bare majority on most issues but when I see the national votes they are pretty damn close.

    From wiki

    Nominee    Barack Obama    Mitt Romney
    Party    Democratic    Republican
    Home state    Illinois    Massachusetts
    Running mate    Joe Biden    Paul Ryan
    Electoral vote    332    206
    States carried    26 + DC    24
    Popular vote    65,915,796[2]    60,933,500[2]
    Percentage    51.1%    47.2%

    That is not what you would call huge. I'll take it, but there it is. There is a big mushy middle that can swing either way not to mention the fact that we only got 58% out to vote it makes the idea that we can just take what we want dubious, no matter how much we may want it.

    And daddy won't you take me back to Muhlenberg County Down by the Green River where Paradise lay. Well, I'm sorry my son, but you're too late in asking Mister Peabody's coal train has hauled it away. John Prine

    by high uintas on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 06:25:33 PM PST

    •  I would suggest (4+ / 0-)

      the numbers you cite are not because the people don't agree with our positions they just understand the person delivering the message could not be trusted to carry it out

      Victim of the system~Bob Marley

      by LaEscapee on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 06:36:19 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I tend to agree with high uintas (7+ / 0-)

        here. I think we have solid majority opinion on select topics. For example, the vast majority of people agree corporations have way too much power. I think the majority agree neither party truly represents the average person.

        I personally think Republicans still get a lot of mileage out of the tax issue - that Democrats are out to raise ordinary people's taxes not just the wealthy.

        I think the Democratic Party needs to start playing offense on the tax issue, and other issues like Social Security again. We've played defense on these issues since the 1980's.

        On SS, it is time to call for eliminating the payroll tax cap and applying the SS tax to investment income. Use the money to reduce, not increase, the retirement age.

        On taxes, I think it is time to start talking about how the U.S economy prospered when we had a 90% top tax rate. I think it is time to start talking about a financial transactions tax. I've seen estimates this could raise $300 billion a year, but I also recently ran into kossacks who are very opposed to this and/or feel it wouldn't bring in much revenue which surprised me. I think it is time to start talking about how to use some of that and other revenues to talk about how we can give average people a break...

        •  How about this (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          joedemocrat, poligirl, high uintas

          First we get the Federal government to pay back what they have stolen from "the lockbox" then we raise SS to an actual living wage. Next we quit forcing people to pay for profit companies for insurance and provide actual healthcare, as in if you need to go the doctor you can.

          Oh and quit bombing other countries that would save trillions

          Victim of the system~Bob Marley

          by LaEscapee on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 08:04:14 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  If given a choice between (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            joedemocrat, poligirl, poco

            what you have suggested and what joedemocrat has come up with, I think that joe's is the more likely kind of action that might be taken.

            Directly going after the top 1% thru taxes, the SS cap, and laying out a more populist agenda would be popular and doable in this political climate.

            I think we need to raise SS benefits, I hate ins. companies too, but let's take apart those two ideas. The former is more playable than the later now and maybe going forward.

            I've said before and still believe that when we get single payer it will be a system more like Germany's or Australia's with basic national medical coverage and private policies that one can by into. The ACA makes it easy to morph into that kind of system.

            And daddy won't you take me back to Muhlenberg County Down by the Green River where Paradise lay. Well, I'm sorry my son, but you're too late in asking Mister Peabody's coal train has hauled it away. John Prine

            by high uintas on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 08:19:33 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  all excellent ideas.. (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            LaEscapee, high uintas, poligirl, poco

            raising SS to a living benefit, as well as passing a living minimum wage would do wonders for the economy. We would need to raise the revenue- but that could be achieved by removing the payroll tax cap and applying the tax to investment income.

            I agree with Medicare For All, and a foreign policy where the U.S. leads by example, not military exercises.

            I'm sure people can add to this list - fair trade, not job busting free trade would be another example.

  •  Forgot my HR Jar (6+ / 0-)

    Victim of the system~Bob Marley

    by LaEscapee on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 06:25:52 PM PST

  •  Here's a great example: (7+ / 0-)
    There have been at least five protests that I don't know what they’re protesting, but they’re yelling something.  (Laughter.)  That's sort of par for the course in San Francisco. I knew it was something.
    Read the first two comments under the tip jar.

    http://www.dailykos.com/...

    Hardy har har (barf)

  •  The 'appeal to popular belief' (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LaEscapee, BigAlinWashSt, CenPhx, poligirl

    so recklessly presumed by politicians every time they preface their remarks with "The American People [want/believe]..." automatically calls into question anything that follows.

    For me at least.

    In fact, I tend to assume the opposite of whatever it is they're saying is what the American People really want.

    For example, this kind of statement...

    The American People feel we must do everything we can to fight, and prevent, terrorism.
    ...is a red flag.




    Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us. ~ J. Garcia

    by DeadHead on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 06:34:47 PM PST

    •  To My Way of Thinking... (0+ / 0-)

      The only person who can legitimately use that phrase is the Vice-President and President. They ARE the elected leaders of all of America's people. We call them citizens.

      It has been a long time since I trusted either to have factual information on what the American people say, or want. I do trust the current holders of that office.

      Trust but verify. Trust should be capable of being earned, and given when it is.

      Nurse Kelley says my writing is brilliant and my soul is shiny - who am I to argue?
      Economic
      Left/Right: -7.75
      Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.51

      by Bud Fields on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 07:10:46 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Because Nobody Has a Good Idea How to Start (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LaEscapee, 3goldens, poligirl

    other than working in the system and trying to elect a few more Sherrod Browns over the next 70 years.

    We've never been in this position in American History where there's just about no institutional power that shares the interests of almost all the people.

    It's likely going to take a long time before someone or some movement comes up with a plausible program.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 06:39:01 PM PST

    •  The problem with this theory (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Cassiodorus, 3goldens, poligirl

      is that as long as they have the gatekeepers that work wholeheartedly to deride those that actually want progress then we never will get the forward movement no matter how many times the gatekeepers lie

      Victim of the system~Bob Marley

      by LaEscapee on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 06:51:35 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Who are the gatekeepers? N/T (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        poco

        Nothing human is alien to me.

        by WB Reeves on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 07:04:52 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Centrist/establishment politicians (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          LaEscapee, 3goldens, poligirl

          Big business, Wall St., MIC, etc.

          I'm sure you can probably guess who he's talking about.




          Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us. ~ J. Garcia

          by DeadHead on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 07:24:38 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  As LaEscapee's comment below demonstrates (0+ / 0-)

            that wasn't exactly what he meant.

            Nothing human is alien to me.

            by WB Reeves on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 02:46:24 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Well, perhaps not EXACTLY, but... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              poligirl
              Don't worry we know there is a fence around D.C. and we aren't allowed in there is no need to act clueless.
              Enough to make my reading somewhat plausible, I think.




              Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us. ~ J. Garcia

              by DeadHead on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 03:21:29 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Sure, if you ignore (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                fcvaguy

                all of this:

                I'm not providing links to all the comments made about "the professional left" or providing the links to the many comments defending the rightwing policies enacted and the attacks against anyone that questioned them.
                If you have any idea what all the above has to do with fences around DC please share, because I don't see it.

                You're right about one thing though. I did guess that the above was exactly what LaEscapee was getting at.

                Nothing human is alien to me.

                by WB Reeves on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 03:29:01 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  He said both in the same comment. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  poligirl

                  I don't need to ignore the part you blockquoted in order to read the remainder as I did.

                  You can try rereading this subthread from the top, starting from this comment, to get a sense for how he was using "gatekeeper" before you started asking your questions.




                  Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us. ~ J. Garcia

                  by DeadHead on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 04:01:22 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I asked him how he was using it (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    fcvaguy

                    and I take his replies at his word. You seem to have problem with that. Just as you seemingly have a problem reconciling the first paragraph of his comment with the second. You're pretending that they have no relation to each other.

                    Creative editing at the least.

                    Nothing human is alien to me.

                    by WB Reeves on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 04:46:14 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

        •  I'm not providing links (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          poligirl, DeadHead

          to all the comments made about "the professional left" or providing the links to the many comments defending the rightwing policies enacted and the attacks against anyone that questioned them.

          Don't worry we know there is a fence around D.C. and we aren't allowed in there is no need to act clueless.

          Victim of the system~Bob Marley

          by LaEscapee on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 07:28:48 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  So (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            poco

            do you actually include people who disagree with you on this site under that heading?

            Nothing human is alien to me.

            by WB Reeves on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 07:44:57 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Well of course (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              poligirl

              Why wouldn't I?

              Victim of the system~Bob Marley

              by LaEscapee on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 07:53:29 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  That's interesting (0+ / 0-)

                so your definition of "gatekeeper" is anyone here who disagrees with you?

                Must be a mighty big gate.

                Nothing human is alien to me.

                by WB Reeves on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 02:30:48 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Playing games, I see. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  poligirl

                  He said he includes those with whom he disagrees on this site because he disagrees with the views and tactics used by those center-right blog nannies running around cheering and enabling the some of the right-wing policies being pushed by a Democratic president.

                  That's my take. He can correct me if I'm wrong.




                  Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us. ~ J. Garcia

                  by DeadHead on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 03:52:10 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  You mean games like inventing imaginary (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    ord avg guy, fcvaguy

                    replies by a third party and claiming that's what he really said?

                    That is not what he said. This is what he said:

                    I'm not providing links to all the comments made about "the professional left" or providing the links to the many comments defending the rightwing policies enacted and the attacks against anyone that questioned them.
                    When your argument relies on rewriting another person's comment, it's likely that you don't have much of an argument.

                    Nothing human is alien to me.

                    by WB Reeves on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 04:12:58 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

            •  there is a contingent of gatekeepers here. (6+ / 0-)

              personally, i agree with them on some of the issues, but the longer we have people guarding the gates, the longer it will be til things start getting better for the little guy, imo.

              "The further a society drifts from truth, the more it will hate those that speak it." ~George Orwell "When it is dark enough, you can see the stars." ~Charles Beard

              by poligirl on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 07:54:40 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  What "gates" are they guarding? (0+ / 0-)

                As far as I can see, the only folks who might be accurately described as gatekeepers are the admins and, ultimately, Kos.

                What differentiates a "gatekeeper" from someone who simply voices disagreement? Hmm?

                 

                Nothing human is alien to me.

                by WB Reeves on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 02:43:46 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  defending the powers that be because they (0+ / 0-)

                  are simply Democrats. those folks are protecting (i.e. guarding) the establishment. policy doesn't seem to matter to the folks i'm talking about. there is a contingent of those folks here.

                  surely you knew what i was referencing right? you can't be that dim can you?

                  "The further a society drifts from truth, the more it will hate those that speak it." ~George Orwell "When it is dark enough, you can see the stars." ~Charles Beard

                  by poligirl on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 07:53:28 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Not so "dim" as to not see that (0+ / 0-)

                    your definition amounts to a disagreement over political tactics where it isn't a disagreement over policy.

                    I've seen plenty of these debates unfold here over the last eight years and I can't recall an instance where anyone made the affirmative argument that Democrats should be above criticism simply by virtue of being in power.

                    I have seen the pragmatic argument made that Democrats shouldn't be undercut in the face of worse alternatives. I have seen it argued that some criticism of current policies flies in the face of political realities. Of course I've also seen where people have defended the policies themselves. Since this is a site dedicated to partisan Democrats, this is only to be expected.

                    Characterizing this as "gate keeping" strikes me as a rhetorical device for purposes of prejudicing the debate. Rather than coming to grips with the actual arguments being made and effectively refuting them, one can simply ignore them by de-legitimizing them as "defending the powers that be."

                    While this may be a comfortable approach for ideologues, it is, IMO, a recipe for political irrelevance. Arguing that contrary views can be dismissed out of hand isn't effective anywhere outside of the hothouse of sectarianism.  
                         

                    Nothing human is alien to me.

                    by WB Reeves on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 02:05:10 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Nonsense (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      poligirl
                      I have seen the pragmatic argument made that Democrats shouldn't be undercut in the face of worse alternatives. I have seen it argued that some criticism of current policies flies in the face of political realities. Of course I've also seen where people have defended the policies themselves. Since this is a site dedicated to partisan Democrats, this is only to be expected.
                      When these "pragmatic arguments" that people should not "undercut" democrats, along with defenses that criticisms "fly in the face" of "reality", become self-justifying attacks on the left, with ankle biting insults, signs of site policing, certain recognizable and familiar members always present to push back against disagreement and "non-pragmatism" and arguments "against reality", that is gate-keeping behavior.

                      It is one thing to disagree, another to police.

                      And your presence, which is rather continual in these sort of diaries, is an example. I've noticed you've given not one person in this diary with whom you're in debate the last word, so far.

                      You like to name your "leftist" credentials at every turn, using labels of socialism, anarchism, communism, etc., but I remember your past track record. You're almost always bashing people who are more to the left, and defending people who are more status quo affirming.

                      Of course you deny the behavior, but you can't hide your tracks.

                      "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

                      by ZhenRen on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 03:37:35 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  What guff (0+ / 0-)

                        Nothing but the usual grab bag of invective and ideologically blinkered rhetoric. You have no coherent argument to make so, as usual, you resort to impugning motives.

                        Let me be plain. I think you are a prime example of the ills that have afflicted the Left in the US for decades. Your entire approach strikes me as intellectually bigoted, self righteous to the point of puritanism and completely lacking in the elementary principles of a basic respect for others that you so loudly and, in my view, hypocritically proclaim. I see little evidence of any real principle at work other than your own self regard.

                        I don't expect you to accept this verdict, which is fine since I have nothing but disdain for your opinion of me.

                         

                        Nothing human is alien to me.

                        by WB Reeves on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 04:24:18 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Excellent - At last we meet the real you (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          LaEscapee, poligirl

                          Sometimes it takes a bit of honesty to get past the facade of the carefully cultivated personae people construct.

                          Let me be plain. I think you are a prime example of the ills that have afflicted the Left in the US for decades. Your entire approach strikes me as intellectually bigoted, self righteous to the point of puritanism and completely lacking in the elementary principles of a basic respect for others that you so loudly and, in my view, hypocritically proclaim. I see little evidence of any real principle at work other than your own self regard.

                          I don't expect you to accept this verdict, which is fine since I have nothing but disdain for your opinion of me.

                          Nevermind that you are a guest in a diary, generally going about finding something about which to argue, with nearly everyone here. I don't mind people who have chips on their shoulders so long as they are honest about why, and thankfully you've finally spit out what's really bothering you.

                          The real debate as it pertains to you and your brethren, (even when you call yourselves Marxists or council communists, Marxist syndicalists, Marxist anarchists or what-have-you, which you constantly  employ to make people think you're far left), is the debate between supporting status quo two-party electoral politics (as it is served up to us), and reformism, as apposed to alternatives like direct action, exploring new approaches to the failed, corrupt electoral system, or even just a call for getting the two parties to heed polls which indicate that on many issues, the people in general are to the left of the elites of both parties.

                          That's what many of us perceive that people like you are all about: Preserving the status quo, as if you're 100% certain that the only real course that can be taken is making do with the pathetic "realities" and "pragmatics" of electoral politics as you define them.

                          Thus, all of the lefty labels you toss around are for mere affect. Long ago your ilk have become social democrats of the most tepid variety, and you think yourselves so wise and experienced that the arguments are long ago settled, in so far as the debate exists as to what can be realistically accomplished.

                          If your kind are right, we're doomed, because if we all follow in your footsteps, we will remain silent about murder by drone, silent about creeping totalitarianism using new technology that is targeting OWS and other modern movements. We will be too late to address climate change, and we will peep like crickets about the 3rd world levels of inequality and disparity in distribution of wealth. Your kind will watch the world go up in flames, and you'll croak in barely audible tones that you tried your best.

                          You're among those weary souls who have succumbed to the apathy of having absorbed so much political rhetoric you have become frozen in the past, incapable of genuine inspiration from recognizing something fresh, like, for example, OWS. There is an old saying, that the old stalwart activists will be the last to recognize the revolution, when it comes, since they are so busy prognosticating and pompously delineating what is or is not possible (according to Marx, et al) that they simply won't know it when it hits them in the face.

                          I've watched you, Reeves, while I have lurked in countless diaries, always on the side of political prudence, always harping away at some disaffected lefty, while reciting over and over again your litany of well-rehearsed credentials, which are intended to convince your unsuspecting marks how far to the left you are, and of your vast experience, before pulling the rug out from under them by dutifully and arrogantly informing them of the errors of their ways.

                          But when it comes to working within the prosaic, banal, mediocrity of electoral politics, you're as centrist as they come.

                          We're on to you, Reeves. We see you.

                          "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

                          by ZhenRen on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 05:43:11 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  You have no idea of the "real me" (0+ / 0-)

                            That you imagine that you could know anyone through the medium of the internet speaks for itself.

                            As for the rest of your post, I couldn't ask for a better illustration of my earlier criticism. It's nothing more than a bloated substitution of your imaginings for fact. A gigantic straw man constructed of your own bigoted fantasies. I've made none of the arguments you attribute to me. The only question remaining is whether your dishonesty is conscious or instinctive.

                             Obviously nothing, neither fact nor the least commitment to truthfulness will obstruct your single minded devotion to your own self gratification.

                            Thanks for making that so plain.

                            BTW, as Mark Twain said: "The only people who should refer to themselves as "we" are kings, Newspaper Editors and people with tapeworms."

                            Nothing human is alien to me.

                            by WB Reeves on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 06:42:57 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Oh, I think I see you clearly enough (0+ / 0-)

                            Despite your delusions of being unfathomable, the pattern you weave here is pretty simple, really. I've seen you do this a hundred times by now.

                            And you'll probably keep responding, according to the pattern. You do realize, silly fellow, that getting the last word means nothing at all?

                            And that you aren't the sum of all political knowledge?

                            And that even you, in all your imagined grandiosity, and your presumed vast, encompassing experience, can be as wrong as anyone?

                            And the one who thinks he devises the the most vicious insult isn't really one-upping anyone?

                            "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

                            by ZhenRen on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 07:09:10 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Happy Now? ;) N/T (0+ / 0-)

                            Nothing human is alien to me.

                            by WB Reeves on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 07:14:41 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I've been watching this for three days (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            ZhenRen

                            you have made forty comments in my diary. There is a term for that you know.

                            Victim of the system~Bob Marley

                            by LaEscapee on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 08:13:45 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                      •  this^^^^^ well said Zhen! :D nt (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        ZhenRen

                        "The further a society drifts from truth, the more it will hate those that speak it." ~George Orwell "When it is dark enough, you can see the stars." ~Charles Beard

                        by poligirl on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 06:53:19 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

            •  Not all of them... (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              LaEscapee, poligirl

              Just those operating under a pretense of impartiality when they're anything but. :)




              Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us. ~ J. Garcia

              by DeadHead on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 08:08:05 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I doubt anyone here claims to be impartial (0+ / 0-)

                I certainly don't. I'm a left radical and I make no bones about it.

                Where have you seen this claim of impartiality?

                Nothing human is alien to me.

                by WB Reeves on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 02:33:04 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  You're a "left radical?" (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  poligirl, ZhenRen

                  Wow. I never would've guessed.

                  I didn't say anyone "claimed" anything.

                  "Operating under a pretense of impartiality" implies a behavior pattern that doesn't require an official declaration in order to be perceived by others as such.




                  Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us. ~ J. Garcia

                  by DeadHead on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 04:11:45 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  You don't have to guess (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    fcvaguy

                    I've made the point on numerous occasions.

                    "Operating under a pretense of impartiality" implies a behavior pattern that doesn't require an official declaration in order to be perceived by others as such.
                    Sorry but this sounds very much like a rationalization for believing whatever you want to believe. Subjective "perceptions" trump stated positions? I think not.

                    Besides, it's more than a little silly to talk about impartiality in argument. You can't have an argument without being for something and, consequently, being against something else. That's the antithesis of impartiality.

                    Nothing human is alien to me.

                    by WB Reeves on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 04:31:34 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

  •  It's the end of an empire. (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ZhenRen, LaEscapee, poligirl, Choco8, TheMomCat

    There's nothing to take back.

    It will all be over in less than four years.

    Today, three main threats exist to America’s dominant position in the global economy: loss of economic clout thanks to a shrinking share of world trade, the decline of American technological innovation, and the end of the dollar's privileged status as the global reserve currency.

    By 2008, the United States had already fallen to number three in global merchandise exports, with just 11% of them compared to 12% for China and 16% for the European Union.  There is no reason to believe that this trend will reverse itself.

    Similarly, American leadership in technological innovation is on the wane. In 2008, the U.S. was still number two behind Japan in worldwide patent applications with 232,000, but China was closing fast at 195,000, thanks to a blistering 400% increase since 2000.  A harbinger of further decline: in 2009 the U.S. hit rock bottom in ranking among the 40 nations surveyed by the Information Technology & Innovation Foundation when it came to “change” in “global innovation-based competitiveness” during the previous decade.  Adding substance to these statistics, in October China's Defense Ministry unveiled the world's fastest supercomputer, the Tianhe-1A, so powerful, said one U.S. expert, that it “blows away the existing No. 1 machine” in America.

    Add to this clear evidence that the U.S. education system, that source of future scientists and innovators, has been falling behind its competitors. After leading the world for decades in 25- to 34-year-olds with university degrees, the country sank to 12th place in 2010.  The World Economic Forum ranked the United States at a mediocre 52nd among 139 nations in the quality of its university math and science instruction in 2010. Nearly half of all graduate students in the sciences in the U.S. are now foreigners, most of whom will be heading home, not staying here as once would have happened.  By 2025, in other words, the United States is likely to face a critical shortage of talented scientists.

    Such negative trends are encouraging increasingly sharp criticism of the dollar's role as the world’s reserve currency. “Other countries are no longer willing to buy into the idea that the U.S. knows best on economic policy,” observed Kenneth S. Rogoff, a former chief economist at the International Monetary Fund. In mid-2009, with the world's central banks holding an astronomical $4 trillion in U.S. Treasury notes, Russian president Dimitri Medvedev insisted that it was time to end “the artificially maintained unipolar system” based on “one formerly strong reserve currency.”

    Simultaneously, China's central bank governor suggested that the future might lie with a global reserve currency “disconnected from individual nations” (that is, the U.S. dollar). Take these as signposts of a world to come, and of a possible attempt, as economist Michael Hudson has argued, “to hasten the bankruptcy of the U.S. financial-military world order.”

    http://www.tomdispatch.com/...
  •  Next year man. It's the year of the Global (3+ / 0-)

    Citizen. Shit's going to hit the fan. Seize the power!

    "It is easier to pass through the eye of a needle then it is to be an honest politician."

    by BigAlinWashSt on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 07:34:05 PM PST

  •  I ask the question... (3+ / 0-)

    when was it ever "good"?

    I sing praises in the church of nonsense, but in my heart I'm still an atheist, demanding sense of all things.

    by jbou on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 07:34:44 PM PST

    •  When I was a child (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      jbou, poligirl

      and didn't understand man

      Victim of the system~Bob Marley

      by LaEscapee on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 07:36:21 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  so all this is you just pissed off... (3+ / 0-)

        that you're getting old?

        I sing praises in the church of nonsense, but in my heart I'm still an atheist, demanding sense of all things.

        by jbou on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 07:37:39 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Been pissed for years (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          jbou, poligirl

          started when I joined the Corps at 17 and realized the recruiter lied or maybe it was when my girlfriend told me that night "not not tonight" maybe it was when i realized I wasn't getting my pony.

          Hard to remember

          Victim of the system~Bob Marley

          by LaEscapee on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 07:41:30 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  You capture an essential truth. (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          jbou, LaEscapee, poligirl, BigAlinWashSt

          "Trust me... I've been right before." ~ Tea party patriot

          by Calvino Partigiani on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 07:43:18 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  If you aren't pissed off (8+ / 0-)

          you're without a pulse.

          "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

          by ZhenRen on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 07:52:48 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  that's the problem... (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            poligirl, high uintas, Choco8, Pluto

            all that anger is bad for the heart. I now bury myself in weed, women and cooking shows. I am waiting for them to create my ultimate show, some sort of Chopped meets Cheech and Chong meets Charlies Angels and it all takes place on the streets of Baltimore and it's directed by David Simon.

            I sing praises in the church of nonsense, but in my heart I'm still an atheist, demanding sense of all things.

            by jbou on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 07:58:53 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Well (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              jbou, poligirl, Cassiodorus
              all that anger is bad for the heart.
              Only if you suppress it. Take it to the streets the next time you get mad, bring your friends, and we'll fill the square with enough to strike fear into the status quo.

              Heh. You can bring your weed.

              "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

              by ZhenRen on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 08:02:41 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  There's plenty of protests I could go to... (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                poligirl

                they just seem pointless and that's kinda why I get angry and that leads to heart problems and who needs that?

                I sing praises in the church of nonsense, but in my heart I'm still an atheist, demanding sense of all things.

                by jbou on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 08:05:49 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  but sometimes letting that anger out via protest (4+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  LaEscapee, jbou, DeadHead, ZhenRen

                  is kinda healthy. my elderly folks found that out when they went to their local Occupy a couple years ago.

                  "The further a society drifts from truth, the more it will hate those that speak it." ~George Orwell "When it is dark enough, you can see the stars." ~Charles Beard

                  by poligirl on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 08:22:33 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Well (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  poligirl

                  if you're a working person (and frankly, that isn't all all certain to me, based on that last comment) you can thank your 8 hour day to people who got angry, and refused to be servants to the ruling class.

                  While you enjoy the fruits of their protests, you have enough pleasure time to sit on your ass making fun of people who fought for you over a hundred years ago.

                  Next smug quip?

                  "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

                  by ZhenRen on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 10:31:42 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  so quick to judge me (0+ / 0-)

                    You get testy when you don't get taken serious.

                    I sing praises in the church of nonsense, but in my heart I'm still an atheist, demanding sense of all things.

                    by jbou on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 10:43:44 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  What the hell? (0+ / 0-)

                      A reply within seconds? What are you doing, hanging by the computer eating cheetos? You're not even a fraction as subtle as you believe yourself to be. No need for me to judge quickly. I've seen your track record. You have no idea of the incredible people in history you insult with your drivel.

                      Goddamn the complacent smugness on this fucking site.

                      "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

                      by ZhenRen on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 10:55:17 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  if we're going to get all judgey... (0+ / 0-)

                        you seem to have some control issues you might want to deal with.

                        I sing praises in the church of nonsense, but in my heart I'm still an atheist, demanding sense of all things.

                        by jbou on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 11:09:40 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  I think... (0+ / 0-)

                          I've had enough of the controlling mentality you represent to last me a lifetime.

                          But at least you're not sneering this time. Seems you're the serious one now.

                          "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

                          by ZhenRen on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 11:20:25 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  that's all folks! (0+ / 0-)

                            *preaches at people

                            *steps off soapbox

                            *trips

                            *lands in own hypocrisy

                            I sing praises in the church of nonsense, but in my heart I'm still an atheist, demanding sense of all things.

                            by jbou on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 11:22:46 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  To be honest (0+ / 0-)

                            I've no idea if you're referring to yourself, or me, or both of us.

                            Look, I know you're got this schtick going where you go in and joke around, usually at some one elses expense, and we're all expected to laugh and go along with the ridicule, but ridicule is one of the most potent forms of criticism to which one can resort.

                            I'm a bit fed up with the stupidity of Democrats in eschewing direct action, while they sit back and fucking take credit  for the efforts of anarchists, communists, socialists, labor activists, who died trying to win workers' rights.

                            Now these same Democrats act as if they can't take the time to get their hands dirty, while acting as if they follow in the tradition of the labor movement, after sanitizing the history books to eliminate all reference to the role of direct action, and the influential part played by anarchists and socialists in labor history.

                            Its a sore spot... and I will go fucking berserk every time I encounter this mentality. Okay? Heh.

                            "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

                            by ZhenRen on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 11:35:12 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  it was both of us (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            poligirl

                            and all that other stuff has nothing to with anything I said through out this thread.

                            I sing praises in the church of nonsense, but in my heart I'm still an atheist, demanding sense of all things.

                            by jbou on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 11:47:07 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Okay (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            poligirl, jbou

                            and if that's true I apologize. Hard to know where people are coming from sometimes.

                            "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

                            by ZhenRen on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 12:15:05 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                  •  Fucking spell check (0+ / 0-)

                    That was meant to be LEISURE time, and "at all" certain.

                    Yeah, while you eat your fucking GMO corn chips and wallow in your self-righteous complacency, you're benefiting from activists who were murdered by your precious status quo enforcers whom you unwittingly defend, with your sneering contempt for those who engaged in "useless" direct action.

                    But no worry to you and your well-fed lot. A lot of the efforts of people who died in the Hay Market Massacre, or who were hung at the gallows, or tortured in prisons, who in Spain were rounded up by the thousands, are being eroded by complacent mush-heads like you, so that now, rather than enjoy an eight hour day, they can't even get fucking decent jobs part time.

                    I'm sure you can come up with some kick-ass curled-lip contemptuous insult by which to denigrate me a little more.

                    "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

                    by ZhenRen on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 10:50:01 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

            •  I'd watch it (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              jbou, poligirl

              Don't much care for the Charlie's Angels part but you give me Cheech and Chong and Chopped and I'm there!

              And daddy won't you take me back to Muhlenberg County Down by the Green River where Paradise lay. Well, I'm sorry my son, but you're too late in asking Mister Peabody's coal train has hauled it away. John Prine

              by high uintas on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 08:27:33 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

  •  It's all about democracy and the rich. (5+ / 0-)

    We don't have democracy at the national level because the rich control everything.  It's simple.  When the people decide they want democracy, they'll rise up and demand it like citizens in other countries have done and are doing. It's going to take things getting a lot worse than it is now.  Perhaps some sort of collapse.  Unfortunately.  But it's that way around most the planet, i.e., the rich controlling everything.   Human civilization needs a paradigm shift away from allowing small numbers of humans accumulate so much of the wealth.  Money is the root of all evil.  Maybe not all, but that's what it's about.

    "It is easier to pass through the eye of a needle then it is to be an honest politician."

    by BigAlinWashSt on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 08:05:26 PM PST

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