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For the last couple of weeks we have been hearing lots of scare-mongering about the Ukrainian Revolution being a bunch of "fascists" and "Neo-Nazis"  from the Kremlin-financed media, the Kremlin itself, and even diarists on leftist websites.  The intent of the propaganda seems to be to weaken support for the Ukrainian Revolution and lower resistance against Russia's invasion of Ukraine.

Jewish Ukrainian leaders, however, are not buying it.

It started with Rabbi Yaacov Dov Bleich, who joined a call for Russia to withdraw from Ukraine:

Religious leaders in Ukraine including the country’s chief rabbi Yaacov Dov Bleich, an EJC executive member, have called on the international community to stop “a foreign invasion of Ukraine”.

Bleich, who is also president of the Jewish Federation of Ukraine, an EJC affiliate, joined the heads of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church Kyivian Patriarchate, the Greek Catholic Church and the Lutheran, Baptist and Seventh Day Adventist churches in the statement.

The letter read: “Dear Brothers and Sisters in Russia! The Ukrainian people have only friendly, fraternal feelings toward the Russian people. Do not believe the propaganda that enflames hostility between us. We want and we will continue to build friendly and fraternal relations with Russia but only as a sovereign and independent state.”

http://www.eurojewcong.org/...

It continued with the sole Rabbi in Crimea:

But he did not hold back. “As a rabbi I am in the public eye. I am not afraid to speak. I am a patriot of this country and I believe what is happening is an aggression on the part of Russia,” said Kapustin.

The rabbi was born in Russia but raised in Georgia. In 1991-2 he and his family fled to Ukraine as refugees. He subsequently studied in England and Israel, before returning to Ukraine.

“We are very poor and miserable, but it’s not a question of money, it’s a question of freedom,” said Kapustin.

http://www.eurojewcong.org/...

A brave stance when one considers that the situation in Crimea is not exactly easy for pro-Ukrainian citizens right now and that pro-Russian militia members have hurled anti-Jewish slogans at reporters there...

And finally, a large group of Ukrainian Jewish leaders and citizens has written a letter that lambasts Putin's spreading of falsehoods and the invasion itself:

Ukraine Jewish leaders criticize Putin in open letter

March 5, 2014 5:36pm

(JTA) — A highly critical open letter to Vladimir Putin by leaders of Ukraine’s Jewish communities was published on the website of Ukraine’s Vaad yesterday.

The Vaad of Ukraine was established in 1991. Based in Kiev, it is an umbrella group that says it supports “265 Jewish organizations from 94 cities of Ukraine.”

The letter, written in Russian and co-signed by 21 Jewish leaders — including the Vaad leadership, an artist, an engineer, and others — excoriated Putin’s perceived hypocrisy and asserted the signers’ support of Ukrainian sovereignty “in the name of national minorities and Ukraine’s Jewish community.”

Read more: http://www.jta.org/...

The letter takes both Putin and the Russian media to task for spreading blatant falsehoods... :

The Russian-speaking citizens of Ukraine are not being humiliated or discriminated against, their civil rights have not been infringed upon. Meanderings about “forced Ukrainization” and “bans on the Russian language” that have been so common in Russian media are on the heads of those who invented them. Your certainty about the growth of anti-Semitism in Ukraine, which you expressed at your press-conference, also does not correspond to the actual facts. Perhaps you got Ukraine confused with Russia, where Jewish organizations have noticed growth in anti-Semitic tendencies last year.
...and concludes by telling Putin to mind his own business and leave Ukraine in peace:
Vladimir Vladimirovich, we highly value your concern about the safety and rights of Ukrainian national minorities. But we do not wish to be “defended” by sundering Ukraine and annexing its territory. We decisively call for you not to intervene in internal Ukrainian affairs, to return the Russian armed forces to their normal fixed peacetime location, and to stop encouraging pro-Russian separatism.

Vladimir Vladimirovich, we are quite capable of protecting our rights in a constructive dialogue and in cooperation with the government and civil society of a sovereign, democratic, and united Ukraine. We strongly urge you not to destabilize the situation in our country and to stop your attempts of delegitimizing the new Ukrainian government.

http://maidantranslations.com/...

For some really good insight into Ukraine and the Euromaidan movement there I am going to refer to another American's excellent, reality-based diary, which sadly received far less attention than it deserves:

TUE MAR 04, 2014 AT 06:50 AM PST

[Updated] Gays, Jews, Nazis, and Ukraine

by another American

http://www.dailykos.com/...
Poll

Do you think Putin's invasion of Ukraine is justified?

14%20 votes
76%107 votes
2%4 votes
0%1 votes
5%8 votes

| 140 votes | Vote | Results

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Comment Preferences

  •  Nazis, Russia, and "kebabs"... (18+ / 0-)

    There are certainly people in the new Ukrainian government that I would never vote for in a million years, but this whole "Neo-Nazis in Ukraine" thing is basically the Russian's version of "WMDs in Iraq". A pretext for war based on a foul stew of emotion, history, and fear. A small percent of the new Ukranian coalition appear to be horrible nationalist thugs, yes. Neo-nazis? Well...not really. And I've heard a lot more neo-Nazi talk about the horrid sub-human "kebabs" out of Russia than I have out of Ukraine, in any case.

    it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses

    by Addison on Thu Mar 06, 2014 at 06:20:53 PM PST

    •  The "new Ukrainian government" is not legit (6+ / 0-)

      NOT democratically elected. The ousted President was corrupt... the corruption is systemic in Ukraine... but you do NOT get to just toss out democratically elected Presidents on their ear because the US waltzes in with billions $$ and pretty promises.

      The US got away with downing the personal airplane of a Head-of-State because they want to search it for Edward Snowden, but the US damn sure can NOT down an entire country just because they want to choke off and control critical resources.

      And those pretty promises which btw will come attached with severe austerity and raiding of national assets of the Ukrainian people.

      Crimea is an autonomous region and its duly elected representatives voted 100% to request its sovereignty be merged back with Russia ... where Crimea had been for CENTURIES.

      That is not a "pretext for war."

       


      One does not become enlightened by imagining figures of light, but by making the darkness conscious. --Carl Jung

      by bronte17 on Thu Mar 06, 2014 at 06:46:37 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  He was voted out by the parliament... (14+ / 0-)

        Much of the rest of your comment has to do with what the United States has done terribly vis-a-vis Edward Snowden, which has nothing to do with the invasion of Crimea by unmarked Russian Cпецназ units. Oranges can be described as orange, even if a tangerine tries to hypocritically paint itself red. US misdeeds don't argue against Russian ones

        Crimea is an autonomous region and its duly elected representatives voted 100% to request its sovereignty be merged back with Russia ... where Crimea had been for CENTURIES.
        Crimea was not a majority Russian area until the Tatar genocide of 1944. Crimea was then, after being pumped full of Russians to fill the empty Tatar households and lands, given to Ukraine in 1954 because it was easier to govern from Kyiv than Moscow.

        it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses

        by Addison on Thu Mar 06, 2014 at 06:53:25 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  The parliamentarian maneuvers were not legit (0+ / 0-)

          There was not a quorum with enough members or something.

          It was a coup, not a legitimate transfer of power.

          And the Tatars captured Russians and Ukraines and sold them into slavery for several hundred years until the 1700s.

          Crimea did become a part of Russia in the 1800s... and you can watch for Meteor Blades to post the timeline tonight in his front page diary. You can follow the timeline of Eurasia's madhouse boundary changes.

          •  Wait... (13+ / 0-)

            Your argument is that, 300 years ago the Crimean Tatars were bad people, and then later Imperial Russia took over the land, and even later Imperial Russia deported away those Tatars in trains to the deserts of Central Asia, and half of them died, and so...?

            And that later, "there was not a quorum with enough members or something", even when 100% of the Ukrainian parliament voted out the president of their own country. But that when 100% of the local Crimean government installed under Russian paramilitary occupation voted to join Russia, that was legit, because even though secession wasn't a part of any Ukrainian law...

            ...I'm finding this hard to follow.

            Can you link to Meteor Blades diary? I find it hard to believe that Meteor Blades would diffuse away the Tatar genocide and the effect that genocide has had on the current situation.

            Let it be said I am VERY MUCH AGAINST any military involvement by the US at this point.

            it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses

            by Addison on Thu Mar 06, 2014 at 08:07:33 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  habeas corpus (0+ / 0-)

            produce the fucking yanuk already
            where's that legitimate fucktard? who allegedly called other country's troops on his own?

            come on
            you have no clue what you're defending

      •  Saddam Hussien wasn't democratically elected... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Lawrence

        either. And the new Ukranian government has done nothing compared to the war crimes of Saddam.

        That still doesn't justify our invasion of Iraq - but it was certainly more morally appropriate than invading Ukraine.

      •  This is a pack of filthy lies! (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        dpinzow, nickrud, VelvetElvis, howarddream

        I believe you to be mistaken and I forgive you.  I believe you know not what you do.  I believe you are viewing this issue through a very jaded distorted prism and I wish you would step back and accept that which doesn't fit into your worldview.

        but you do NOT get to just toss out democratically elected Presidents on their ear because the US waltzes in with billions $$ and pretty promises.
        Good ol' Yank fled Kiev.  With billions of Ukrainian money, let's not forget.  He wasn't thrown out after billions were paid by us.  That's just a filthy lie not to me, not to the rest of the Daily Kos, but one that starts with yourself.

        "Your diary is a pack of filthy lies." -bronte17

        by Setrak on Thu Mar 06, 2014 at 07:22:04 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Would you please stop being so emotional (0+ / 0-)

          and I don't need your forgiveness for exercising my mind.

          Furthermore, the man was corrupt. Yes indeedy he was. It's part and parcel of the entire region over there. You need to be more sophisticated in your analysis here.

          And I said billions were "promised"... so your rant just doesn't pan out.

          This is a futile exercise to try to develop a more cogent conversation here right now... in this diary especially. It's biased and predicated on a horrible angle.


          One does not become enlightened by imagining figures of light, but by making the darkness conscious. --Carl Jung

          by bronte17 on Thu Mar 06, 2014 at 08:05:51 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Very well. (0+ / 0-)

            I accept that instead of "promises" you meant "promised" or whatever.  I therefore rephrase my original comment, underlining the part that had to be corrected;

            Good ol' Yank fled Kiev.  With billions of Ukrainian money, let's not forget.  He wasn't thrown out after billions were promised by us.  That's just a filthy lie not to me, not to the rest of the Daily Kos, but one that starts with yourself.

            "Your diary is a pack of filthy lies." -bronte17

            by Setrak on Thu Mar 06, 2014 at 08:13:48 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  Who isn't corrupt? (0+ / 0-)

            This is the former USSR we're talking about here.  Corruption is how the game is played.   No matter who you get to fill that position, they are going to be corrupt.

            We want to build cyber magicians!

            by VelvetElvis on Thu Mar 06, 2014 at 10:03:52 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  The US acts in its own self interest. (0+ / 0-)

        It's not evil.  It doesn't kill puppies just for shits and giggles.

        Particularly when you're pairing the US up against Russia, of all places, it's pretty obvious there are no good guys.  Both sides are just as slimy as it gets.  Blaming the US out of habit won't work in this situation.

        We want to build cyber magicians!

        by VelvetElvis on Thu Mar 06, 2014 at 10:00:26 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  we hold these truths to be self-evident (0+ / 0-)

        and shit

  •  my wife and i are in touch with many of our (23+ / 0-)

    multilingual friends across ukraine, from east to west

    don't believe the pro-putin bullshit...the people in ukraine aren't buying it for a second

  •  A vote is also scheduled for Crimean secession (8+ / 0-)

    http://www.latimes.com/...

    And I notice there's no talk at all about the actual fascist parties. Just because the government isn't all fascist doesn't mean that Svoboda isn't. Denying any existence of fascists doesn't counteract the propaganda from Russia, it only helps make it stronger when there clearly are fascists in power.

    If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

    by AoT on Thu Mar 06, 2014 at 06:25:08 PM PST

    •  ok, there are fascist parties (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      erratic, OIL GUY, Onomastic, Sylv

      holding some major offices. Right now, what difference does that make in how we should view Putin's actions?

    •  Ah, the vote scheduled by the Crimean Govt. (13+ / 0-)

      that is led by a self-appointed Prime Minister whose pro-Russia party received 4% of the vote there the last time around?

      And with Russian troops and pro-Russian Cossack militias running around with whips there, I bet we are going to see a very orderly, completely free and fair election there... especially since they gave themselves so much time(2 weeks) to organize the election.....

      I get that you are concerned about fascists in Kiev.  It seems that Ukrainian Jewish leaders are far less concerned about it than you are, however.

      "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

      by Lawrence on Thu Mar 06, 2014 at 06:31:30 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  It may well be that the (9+ / 0-)

        Ukrainian Jewish leaders know exactly what they've got with Svoboda. And are far less afraid of them than they are of Putin and what he could do to Ukraine.

      •  Ah yes (0+ / 0-)

        I'm glad you assumed I approved of this vote and think it will be completely legitimate. It isn't as if I've ever criticized Putin, or even called him a fascist.

        Unfortunately, you've been desperate to deny that there are any real fascists in Ukraine, in spite of the continuing fact that there are fascists in power in Ukraine.

        I get that you are concerned about fascists in Kiev.  It seems that Ukrainian Jewish leaders are far less concerned about it than you are, however.
        It seems they are more worried about Putin, and that seems reasonable. But when I see these constant apologias for fascist parties I'm not going to shut up about it.

        If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

        by AoT on Thu Mar 06, 2014 at 06:53:13 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  To be fair AoT (8+ / 0-)

          I don't think I've seen Lawrence apologize or support Sovboda or the others, rather he's pushing back on the idea, pushed by some, that Sovboda's presence in the goverment means we should not support Ukraine at all in its standoff with Russia.

          •  Well then you didn't read his previous diary (0+ / 0-)

            where he did his very best to ignore and cover up the fascist/nazi history of Svoboda in the comments.

            If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

            by AoT on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 07:08:47 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  In his NYROB piece, Tim Snyder (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Lawrence

              says that Right Sector is the thing to watch.  Svoboda is not the problem the Russian propaganda has made it out to be.

              If the past disqualifies a party, then the Dixiecrat Democrats of the American South make the present Democrats intolerable.  Parties do change as the social facts change.

              •  Svoboda is a problem (0+ / 0-)

                And it's not just the Russians that make  them out to be. I was hearing about them from leftist groups well before this crisis.

                If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

                by AoT on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 11:59:24 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  This may be the one time (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Lawrence

                  where they're on the right side, fighting with people who represent worse and more obsolete things than themselves.

                  The only way they'll change is if/when the Ukrainian condition changes.  I know these parties: they're all over rural Europe.  They consist of people who think themselves crap and with not much of a future- and they're right about that.  But for that same reason they are willing to take bullets and get their heads bashed in if there's a chance they can take out some group of people who really are horrible.  And defeat the 'Berkut' they did, after which Yanukovich had to flee.  The present is probably their zenith.

                  The worst possible environment for them is a law-abiding, law-enforcing, prosperous, and democratic one.  The way to defeat them is to make Ukraine so, which they are enabling.

                  •  I'm not sure why you think that (0+ / 0-)

                    a new Ukraine will be all of those things. It wasn't before Yanukovych. That doesn't just magically happen. And if you think that joining the EU means magical happy times and no economic problems then I don't think you've been paying attention. Ukraine is going to have to institute some pretty severe austerity programs to get the loans from the EU it requires to keep its gas flowing.

                    The expansion of the EU and "democracy" is by no means inevitable, and treating it as such blinds people to the reality of the situation.

                    If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

                    by AoT on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 10:56:59 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

        •  I don't think i've seen anyone apologize for (7+ / 0-)

          Sovboda.  I've seen a lot of people accuse the entirety of euromaiden as being neo-nazi.

        •  Nope, I have clearly stated that Svoboda has (9+ / 0-)

          strong fascist undercurrents.

          I don't care for Svoboda and I sure wouldn't vote for them, but I also realize that they are only a minor partner in a coalition that has aligned against a far greater national chauvinist power, ie. Putin's Russia.

          So, just like the Jewish Leaders who wrote this letter, I am worried about Putin and the invasion of Ukraine by a national chauvinist, imperial state that is using the severest forms of total propaganda to justify their illegal invasion of a sovereign foreign state that they themselves recognized.

          "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

          by Lawrence on Thu Mar 06, 2014 at 07:31:46 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  There is talk of them (6+ / 0-)

      Both the NYT and NPR covered them and they're role in security for the demonstrations.  However, the consensus seems  to be that they aren't scary bogeymen.  Fascist parties aren't my fave of course but they aren't necessarily a disaster.  Austria survived Joerg Haider and Yisrael Beitenu hasn't destroyed Israel yet.  I believe the Italian government has included fascists in the past but that might be mu aging memory gone awry

  •  Sometimes people say things because it's the (8+ / 0-)

    safest thing to say at the moment.

    From Svoboda Party's website http://en.svoboda.org.ua/...

    The Svoboda Party (formerly the Social National Party of Ukraine) was formed with the unification of the activists of nationalistic community organizations ...
         Svoboda's ideology stems from "Two Revolutions", a book written by Yaroslav Stetsko, leader of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN):
    Who is this inspiration for the Ukraine nationalist Parties -- the former Social-National Party in particular? Yarslav Stetsko they claim. Stetsko said this in his autobiography:
    In August of 1941 Stetsko wrote his autobiography. It was addressed to the German authorities, and contained several notable antisemitic passages, in particular he stated that he considered Marxism a product of Jewish thought, that was put into practice by the Muscovite-Asiatic people with Jewish assistance; ...he absolutely endorses the idea of the indubitable harmful role of Jews in the enslavement of Ukraine by Moscow. He finally states that he absolutely endorses the extermination of Jews, and the rationality of the German methods of extermination of Jews, instead of assimilating them.
    Did you catch 'Social National' btw? Oh, well I suppose none of that actually happened because after all our very responsible media wouldn't hide relevant facts about important matters. Nor would our peace-loving political class.

    Here's office-holders in the current government:

    • Oleksandr Shlapak, Svoboda, Ministry of Finance
    • Andriy Parubiy, Svoboda and Right Sector Leader. Secretary of the Security and National Defense Committee (almost appoints regional officials)
    • Serhiy Kvit, Svoboda. Education Ministry
    • Andriy Makhnyk, Svoboda. Ecology Ministry
    • Ihor Shvaiko, Svoboda. Agriculture Ministry
    • Oleh Makhnitsky, Svoboda. Prosecutor-general of the Ukraine.
    • Tetyana Chernovol, UNA-UNSO, cabinet position, head of anti-corruption committee.
    • Dmytro Bulatov, with UNA-UNSO connections, Minister of youth and sports.

    Security (including appointment of regional governors and officials), Justice, Education, Agriculture. But I guess that's not really power when you think about it.

    You might be interested to read the translate of UNA-UNSO's (google translate) page on how Putin is a pawn of the Hassidim. http://una-unso.info/... (If that doesn't work go to google web page translator, put in the URL.)

    Of course, their bigotry, their hatred doesn't stop with Jewish people. It includes women's rights, gays, Russians, foreigners, black and brown people.... but what of that?


    Actual Democrats: the surest, quickest, route to More Democrats. And actually addressing our various emergencies.

    by Jim P on Thu Mar 06, 2014 at 06:28:19 PM PST

    •  all very true, and we should be (6+ / 0-)

      watching how they govern in Ukraine.

      But, should their presence change how the US responds to Putin's actions in Crimea?

      •  I'd worry more about the beam in my own eye. (5+ / 0-)

        And all we can do about Putin in the Crimea is bluster, and mainly for domestic appearances and to take our minds off our many very real problems. Maybe we can cut them out of the world economy... but, no, we can't. Not without hurting ourselves and Europe.

        I'm pretty sure that part of Putin's motivation is he wants to be the first to kick the Paper Tiger and laugh about it. The rest of the world, the 1% excluded, is looking at us as the Insane Rich Uncle who has to be tolerated for now until they can work out other arrangements. Hence, all those nations making agreements to trade in their own currencies, talking about getting a new reserve currency, etc.


        Actual Democrats: the surest, quickest, route to More Democrats. And actually addressing our various emergencies.

        by Jim P on Thu Mar 06, 2014 at 06:41:33 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  So far (5+ / 0-)

          all I see is the US doing exactly what the EU is doing, who have front center seats, which is offering substantial financial and technical support to the Ukrainian government. It's too soon for actions against Russia itself, and that will also have to be led by the EU - after all, as you point out they are the ones that would take the brunt of any reciprocation on Russia's part.

          As to Putin's motivations, I'm not going to do any armchair psychoanalysis. Especially when his actions are far more easily explained by historical (meaning, predating the existence of the US itself) power politics in that part of the world.

          •  Power politics in that part of the world has to do (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            cybrestrike

            with having buffers between Russia and enemies. And it's not psychoanalysis: the world's sick of us and if you read more than our pathetic press you'll see most everyone (excepting some European states) are taking active steps to not need us anymore.


            Actual Democrats: the surest, quickest, route to More Democrats. And actually addressing our various emergencies.

            by Jim P on Thu Mar 06, 2014 at 09:03:32 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  The US isn't considering sending a pile of cash to (6+ / 0-)

        Russia, we're considering sending a pile of cash to the folks in Kiev.  

        It's quite true that the far right and Nazi elements in Ukraine are not a huge part of the population. They only garnered 10% in the last election (which observers said was very well run).  And the Right Sector had no presence whatsoever in public affairs until the current unelected group was self-installed.  Now the right has about 25% of the cabinet posts and many of the critical ones.  and Right sector is holding actual fucking security positions.

        Putin's a putz, but that doesn't make what's happened in Kiev anything other than a power grab that we helped enable and that has been a windfall for neo nazis.

        To deny that is to deny reality.

        Oh, and here's a quote from the current Svoboda Deputy Prime Minister

        Oleksandr Sych, Deputy prime minister

        Sych, 49, is a member of the far-right nationalist Svoboda (Freedom) party. He is an anti-abortion activist and once publicly suggested that women should “lead the kind of lifestyle to avoid the risk of rape, including refraining from drinking alcohol and being in controversial company”. He has attracted criticism from women’s and human rights groups.

        "Well, yeah, the Constitution is worth it if you succeed." - Nancy Pelosi, 6/30/07 // "Succeed?" At what?

        by nailbender on Thu Mar 06, 2014 at 06:52:50 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I've never said that Sovboda (8+ / 0-)

          is not alarming. What I am saying is that our view of Sovboda should not change how our view, or our response (if any) to Russia's land grab. A minister can be fired, and so far it seems that the Parliament still functions. An occupying army is much less easily expelled.

          •  The parliament is an ad hoc golem, created by the (4+ / 0-)

            Maidan crowd out of the chaos, extra-constitutionally.  The second-largest contingent of the opposition groups, UDAR, was completely excluded because Klitschko's personal appeal was too threatening to the oligarchs of the Fatherland party and the thugs of Svoboda and the Right Sector. To say it's working is a bald faced euphemism.

            Putin is a bad actor but in no way is he a Hitler like threat.  The Right Sector, however, is an outright, philosophically committed Nazi group and they've got positions of power in this outfit we're currently enabling and about to fund.  Let the Rabbi wax sanguine about the vigilantes in Kiev. Rabbis are often wrong, and many were wrong about Hitler back in the '30s.  

            They've already passed a language law reminiscent of what US right wingers have tried here with their English only laws.  Putin might be a putz but they're handing him plenty of live ammunition to fight the polemic war with.

            "Well, yeah, the Constitution is worth it if you succeed." - Nancy Pelosi, 6/30/07 // "Succeed?" At what?

            by nailbender on Thu Mar 06, 2014 at 07:17:00 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  the parliament (9+ / 0-)

              is still the same individuals who were in office prior to  Yanukovych's dismissal, by that parliament. No ad hoc about it - they are the same people.

              Yes, there are too many rightists (arguably true fascists). The language law was vetoed, by the way. And we do have english only laws in 28 states. I'm not about to condemn Ukraine for having the same types of dangerous actors we have. But each and every one of the actors you (and I) are worried about are serving at the pleasure of an ELECTED parliament. They can be fired. An occupying army (which may well already be in the Crimea) is not so easily fired.

              •  My bad, it was late last night and I mis-wrote. (3+ / 0-)

                I meant to say that the cabinet was ad hoc. It was formed under the cloud of vigilantism that had Right Sector squads spray painting swastikas on the hallways of the parliament building after they'd forced the Rada to ditch their power sharing deal with Yanukovych.

                The fact remains that the UDAR was aced out of the cabinet while the totally electorally null Right Sector got power far beyond their fringe constituency, while Svoboda's purchase on power rose to more than double their electoral strength. It was those right wingers' command of the mob that gave them that purchase.

                And yes, Turchynov, after urgent EU appeals during the week after the Rada voided the existing language law that gives minority status to any regional language (not just Russian), vetoed that repeal.

                "Well, yeah, the Constitution is worth it if you succeed." - Nancy Pelosi, 6/30/07 // "Succeed?" At what?

                by nailbender on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 03:45:13 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

            •  The language law did not go through. (7+ / 0-)

              It was vetoed.

              Please don't spread false information.

              "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

              by Lawrence on Thu Mar 06, 2014 at 07:33:19 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  See above. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                cybrestrike

                One more note, though: in vetoing the Rada's nullification of the existing law that gives minority languages status, he also ordered the drafting of a new language law.  We'll see how that turns out.

                "Well, yeah, the Constitution is worth it if you succeed." - Nancy Pelosi, 6/30/07 // "Succeed?" At what?

                by nailbender on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 03:58:37 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

    •  That premise makes no sense. (7+ / 0-)

      If the Rabbi in Crimea were saying the safest thing, he sure wouldn't be criticizing Putin....

      Criticizing Putin is not very safe, in general, if you are a high profile figure in Russia's sphere of influence.

      "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

      by Lawrence on Thu Mar 06, 2014 at 06:40:41 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Ah. And he lives, where? In Moscow? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Wreck Smurfy, CIndyCasella

        Who lives closer to him and his community? Can knock on his door in the time it takes to walk crosstown. Svoboda or Putin?

        Okay, who lives closer to him, is very well-armed, and has praised the extermination of Jews and travelled to other countries in support of Nazi war criminals on trial -- Svoboda or Putin?


        Actual Democrats: the surest, quickest, route to More Democrats. And actually addressing our various emergencies.

        by Jim P on Thu Mar 06, 2014 at 06:46:38 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  None of this is true. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mickT, protectspice

      I have it on good authority that all the people in the new Ukrainian government are nice folks, more or less progressive Democrats.  My buddy Curveball knows them all personally, and he vouches for them completely.

    •  The elections are scheduled (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Lawrence

      for May. I'm sure that will re-shuffle the leadership positions. In any event, they will give us a better picture of how the Ukraine will act in the years to come.

      Here's my take on it - the revolution will not be blogged, it has to be slogged. - Deoliver47

      by OIL GUY on Thu Mar 06, 2014 at 09:16:40 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Thanks. (8+ / 0-)

    Perhaps this will help squelch some of the bullshit that's been tossed around here the last little while.

    "I ordered enchiladas and I ate 'em. Ali had the fruit punch." - A Tribe Called Quest

    by turnover on Thu Mar 06, 2014 at 06:30:15 PM PST

  •  I'm just wondering (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Lawrence, btfsilence

    While everyone is concerned now about the southern part of Ukraine and Crimea, who now is in control of the northern part - the Chernobyl nuclear power plant and all those nearby radioactive areas?  The Ukrainians and Russians (and Europeans for that matter) have spent a lot of money working together to clean that mess up.  

    If the Russians leave, will the Ukrainians be left to deal with Chernobyl by itself?  Will the EU continue to pay?

    •  The nuke plants in Ukraine, in general, are a (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      erratic, justintime, vcmvo2, Sylv

      concern.

      From what I understand, the Ukrainian Govt. has strengthened security at all the nuke plants.  Russia, meanwhile, has stopped uranium shipments to Ukraine to try and put pressure on them.

      "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

      by Lawrence on Thu Mar 06, 2014 at 06:46:19 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  The Ukrainians and Russians (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Sylv

        have both spent a lot of money building a new "sarcophagus" at Chernobyl to keep the radiation from leaking out.  But if the Russians leave, will the Ukrainians be left to deal with Chernobyl by itself?  The EU and US will have to pay the cost of protection and cleanup, since Ukraine is essentially broke.

  •  Thank you for this, Lawrence (21+ / 0-)

    Was beginning to wonder if the site had lost its mind in some quarters.

    The lack of research, checking of sources, and critical thinking has been dumbfounding, to say the least.

    It has been surreal to see some of those who yell the loudest about MSM and Government propaganda fall hook, line, and sinker for whatever fits their favored narrative.

    It's like watching the Religious Right picking out their favorite scripture while ignoring Jesus.

    Pravda speak is Good!

    Anything that doesn't agree with Pravda is Imperialist Hegemonic US Propaganda!

    Makes me wonder just who is zooming who?

    There is something in us that refuses to be regarded as less than human. We are created for freedom - Archbishop Desmond Tutu

    by Onomastic on Thu Mar 06, 2014 at 06:41:27 PM PST

    •  My pleasure, Ono. (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Onomastic, dpinzow, killjoy, Hey338Too

      I'm pretty lazy about writing diaries, in general, but here I felt I had to write something to counter the Kremlin-inspired propaganda that has even seeped into DailyKos.

      "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

      by Lawrence on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 07:21:49 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  It has truly been bizarre seeing (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        dpinzow, Lawrence, Hey338Too

        that happen.

        Critiques of American policy are necessary but what has been occurring on this site has been far from any fact based examination of policy and foreign events.

        Instead it seemed based on an assumption of the United States as the author of all evil and President Obama as its arbiter in Chief.

        I'm very thankful that you stood up and wrote your diaries.

        There is something in us that refuses to be regarded as less than human. We are created for freedom - Archbishop Desmond Tutu

        by Onomastic on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 07:51:23 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  For some insight into why this is happening here, (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Onomastic, killjoy, Hey338Too

          I suggest this read by a blogger and expert on fascism and nationalism who is recommended by the the Heinrich Böll Stiftung:

          http://anton-shekhovtsov.blogspot.de/...

          It seems that some of the popular sites that some European and American leftists run to in order to get the "real news" are themselves run by or associated with pro-Russian quasi-imperialist hard right groups:

          The large network consisting of pro-Russian authors and institutions is a hard/extreme right breeding-ground of all kinds of conspiracy theories, Euroscepticism, racism and anti-democratic theories. Today, this is also one of the main sources of the articles, op-eds and statements that are one way or another trying to discredit the Euromaidan protests by associating them either with neo-Nazism or with the alleged US expansionism. The rhetoric of these authors fully conforms to the remarks made by Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov who has recently slammed Western support for Euromaidan and declared: "What does incitement of increasingly violent street protests have to do with promoting democracy? Why don’t we hear condemnations of those who seize and hold government buildings, burn, torch the police, use racist and anti-Semitic and Nazi slogans?".
          http://anton-shekhovtsov.blogspot.de/...

          Hm, maybe I should write a diary about that.  

          "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

          by Lawrence on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 09:23:19 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  Maybe before Putin attacks "neo-nazis" in Ukraine: (16+ / 0-)

    He can do something about the neo-nazis in Moscow that are busy terrorizing the LGBT community there.

  •  Question: (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mickT, Pablo Bocanegra, cybrestrike

    Where has Max Blumenthal's article explaining the alleged far right and Neo-Nazi connection to Euromaidan been debunked?

    "The cost of liberty is less than the price of repression." - W.E.B. Du Bois Be informed. Fight the Police State.

    by Eternal Hope on Thu Mar 06, 2014 at 08:12:31 PM PST

    •  nobody sane (6+ / 0-)

      is saying that Euromaidan was not a coalition of widely disparate groups, including fascistic ones. And that they have a troubling presence in the current Ukrainian government.

      The thrust of this diary is that even Ukrainians most likely to be targeted by Sovboda et. al. still prefer them over Russian intervention. Are you saying they are wrong?

    •  I don't think that anyone with any objectivity (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Eternal Hope, Onomastic

      thinks that there were now fascist or far right elements at Euromaidan.

      But most of the Ukrainians seem to think that they aren't as big of a deal as the Kremlin media and those who rely on Kremlin sources for information or narratives make them out to be, and some probably even consider them solid allies in fighting pro-Russian national chauvinism.

      "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

      by Lawrence on Thu Mar 06, 2014 at 08:35:45 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  That should read: (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Eternal Hope, Onomastic

        I don't think that anyone with any objectivity
        thinks that there were no fascist or far right elements at Euromaidan.

        "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

        by Lawrence on Thu Mar 06, 2014 at 08:36:47 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Ukranian jews and muslims... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Lawrence

        seem united in thinking that the Russians are more bigoted/dangerous than euromaiden.  

        That should tell you something about what side has more bigots.

        •  it not necessarily about relative bigotry (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          btfsilence

          so much as who the ukrainian jews and muslims believe they have more in common with, and who they have less in common with. that common ground is what solidarity is made of, and in this specific confrontation, it appears that feel they have less to fear from ukrainian right nationalists than russian right nationalists.

          were putin to pick up his toy soldiers and go home, my hunch is that the situation would sort out rather differently.  

  •  There are some diarists with sore backs... (6+ / 0-)

    ...from carrying all that water for a brutal regime in Russia. They are fully committed to undermining revolution when it strays from the path they have carefully constructed out of conspiracy theories. But, it stops being fun and games in the real world when certain people cross the line and advocate for aggression, and offer apologia for violent crackdowns on peaceful protesters.

    I've seen some hardboiled eggs in my time, but you're about twenty minutes

    by harrylimelives on Thu Mar 06, 2014 at 08:13:24 PM PST

  •  Good diary (6+ / 0-)

    and evidence directly from the people who should be most concerned about anti-Semitism in the Ukraine. From a Ukrainian Jewish perspective, Svoboda and the Russians are equally anti-Semitic so they'd rather deal with the anti-Semites they know than the ones they don't

  •  Ah, the neo-nazi Bandera defender is back (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    cybrestrike

    "When dealing with terrorism, civil and human rights are not applicable." Egyptian military spokesman.

    by Paleo on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 02:57:27 AM PST

    •  Classy... (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Onomastic, howarddream, Hey338Too

      I see that you prefer to attempt character assassination and use ad-hom defamation techniques instead of addressing the content of the diary.

      I never defended Bandera, but I did post a Wikileaks quote stating that he was jailed by the Nazis for 3 years.

      I'm sorry that you, in your dogmatic blindness, can't handle historical facts.  That doesn't excuse Bandera's fascist ideology, but it does make the assertion by one of your fellow dogmatists that Svoboda consists of merely a bunch of Hitler fans look rather absurd, since they are more likely to admire Bandera than his jailers.

      And if you don't understand the severe impact that the horrid tag-team of first Stalin's ethnic cleansing and genocide, then the horrid ethnic cleansing and genocide by the Nazis, and then again the horrid ethnic cleansing and genocide by Stalin had on Central and Eastern Europe, then you will never understand Ukraine.

      And btw, if you attempt this kind of defamation again, I will report you.

      "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

      by Lawrence on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 07:37:56 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Go ahead (0+ / 0-)

        Your posts in that in reply to me and limpidglass clearly sought to excuse the extermination of the Jews in Ukraine and to minimize the true nature of Svoboda.

        Truth is the ultimate defense to a claim of defamation.

        "we have already reported on a fear in the Jewish communities of an increase in anti-Semitism, as well as several incidents in which extreme right-wing gangs intensified their activity against synagogues and Jewish institutions. Our correspondent in Crimea, Anshel Pfeffer, reported that Jews were beaten in Kiev and a synagogue was destroyed there, and similar incidents occurred in the city of Zaporozhye in southeast Ukraine and in the Crimean capital of Simferopol.

        Despite that, many pointed to the fact that Russia is trying to defame the new government in Kiev by portraying it as extremely rightist, anti-Semitic and Nazi in its entirety, and some people even wondered whether those incidents weren’t Russian provocations, in order to arouse opposition to the new government. Whatever the case, it can’t really be said that there were no anti-Semitic incidents

        . . . .

        the far-right party Svoboda (Liberty) received 38 seats in the legislature in the most recent elections, and its members espouse extreme anti-Semitic and nationalist views.

        In addition, the party received five portfolios in the new government, including justice minister and deputy prime minister. “The Right Sector, a small organization, armed and more extreme, which espouses a pro-Nazi ideology and is opposed to joining the EU, is not represented in parliament, but its leader Demytro Yarosh recently that his organization and Svoboda share many views and values,"

        http://www.haaretz.com/...

        "When dealing with terrorism, civil and human rights are not applicable." Egyptian military spokesman.

        by Paleo on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 08:29:19 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  And your support for the Kremlin-backed (0+ / 0-)

          propaganda against Euromaidan and for Russia's actions must then, in turn, mean that you are clearly trying to excuse Stalinism, the Stalinist genocide against both Ukrainians and Tatars, and the killing of tens of millions by Stalin.

          There.  I just  used the same kind of bullshit defamation and demagoguery techniques that you seem to be so fond of....

          "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

          by Lawrence on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 09:09:33 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  Do you you seriously expect them to attack a (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    limpidglass, cybrestrike

    government with 5 neo-nazis as ministers?  There are some 200,000 Jews in Kiev.  Do you think they want to give them an excuse to try and finish the job?

    "When dealing with terrorism, civil and human rights are not applicable." Egyptian military spokesman.

    by Paleo on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 03:07:30 AM PST

    •  The curent Ukrainian government has a term-limit (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      howarddream

      that lasts until May 25, at which point they will be replaced in elections.

      Thus, your theory makes little sense, especially since there are 21 ministers and Svoboda, which holds 3 ministerial positions; is thus the small partner in a big coalition.  Furthermore, most expert analysts on Ukraine would disagree with your statement, often repeated in Kremlin-financed media and Kremlin-friendly blogs, that Svoboda is a Neo-Nazi party. They would, instead, call them nationalist to ultra-nationalist, with fascist undercurrents.

      Furthermore, I find your portrayal of Ukrainian Jewish leaders as people lacking bravery, driven solely by fear, quite disturbing... especially since one of the Jewish Rabbis, who is in Crimea, obviously would be under duress from pro-Russian forces for speaking out against Putin.

      It makes me wonder if you even read the diary.

      I will conclude my conversation with you with this excerpt of a quality piece written by Peter Weber:

      "The protests in the Maidan, we are told again and again by Russian propaganda and by the Kremlin's friends in Ukraine, mean the return of National Socialism to Europe," said Timothy Snyder in The New York Review of Books, right before Yanukovych's fall from power. But some of Putin's top advisers promote a form of "National Bolshevism" that looks an awful lot like fascism, Snyder added. And it was Yanukovych's regime "rather than its opponents that resorts to anti-Semitism, instructing its riot police that the opposition is led by Jews."

      snip

      Unless Russia occupies more of Ukraine, that country will hold relatively free and fair elections on May 25, almost certainly leading to a divided government with multiple centers of power and opposition, covered by various media outlets representing different points of view. In Russia, Putin has been either president or prime minister for 15 years, carefully cultivates a strongman image, and seems to want to re-create the Russian empire of yore. He may not be a fascist per se, but there seems to be an element of projection here.

      So when Russia says Ukraine is being run by dangerous fascists, they aren't being literal about it. "Fascists," in this context, translates roughly to what President Obama's opponents mean when they call him a "socialist": I don't like you or agree with what I believe you stand for.

      http://theweek.com/...

      "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

      by Lawrence on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 09:01:05 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Nothing to fear (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Sylv, protectspice

        “You’d never know from most of the reporting that far-right nationalists and fascists have been at the heart of the protests and attacks on government buildings,” reports Seumas Milne of the British Guardian. The most prominent of the groups has been the ultra-right-wing Svoboda or “Freedom” Party.

        . . . .

        Svoboda has always had a soft spot for the Galicia Division, and one of its parliament members, Oleg Pankevich, took part in a ceremony last April honoring the unit. Pankevich joined with a priest of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church near Lviv to celebrate the unit’s seventieth anniversary and rebury some of the division’s dead.

        “I was horrified to see photographs…of young Ukrainians wearing the dreaded SS uniform with swastikas clearly visible on their helmets as they carried caskets of members of this Nazi unit, lowered them into the ground, and fired gun salutes in their honor,” World Jewish Congress president Ronald Lauder wrote in a letter to the Patriarch of the Ukrainian church. He asked Patriarch, Filret, to “prevent any further rehabilitation of Nazism or the SS."

        . . . .

        Tyahnybok is an anti-Semite who says “organized Jewry” controls the Ukraine’s media and government, and is planning “genocide” against Christians

        http://www.thenation.com/...

        "When dealing with terrorism, civil and human rights are not applicable." Egyptian military spokesman.

        by Paleo on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 09:53:08 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I don't think anybody's saying (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Hey338Too, Lawrence

          "nothing to fear." I think there is just a caution to not jump to conclusions based on already derived biases. At least that's my perspective.

          Reading your link reminds me of the percentages of crazy right wing authoritarians we have here, and as it does in Ukraine it also seems to kind of depend on the geographical area here - and the targets of hate seem to vary.

  •  This comment section solidifies my opinion (0+ / 0-)

    that Kos ought to eliminate the HR system, and discourage the "troll" nonsense along with the CT stuff.   If someone posts claims or opinions that you find suspicious or just plain wrong, either counter it and argue or ignore them. This silly HR/troll/CT stuff is embarrassing.   It certainly makes it appear that Daily Kos is not strong enough to handle controversial opinions.  The only rule should be to prohibit personal attacks.

    •  Sorry, We Don't Do CT Here. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Sylv, Lawrence, Hey338Too

      There are plenty of sites out there that do, it's a big Internet.

      Plenty of options out their for those who don't like this site's policies.

      I miss Speaker Pelosi :^(

      by howarddream on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 09:12:02 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I have seen people accused many times (0+ / 0-)

        of conspiracy theory promotion and many times commentors tell them it is against site policies. I think one time it was when the Kennedy assasination issue came up.   The issue of HRing people's comments begs the question as to why any opinion should be hide rated and certainly the little HR war that broke out here was kind of juvenile, don't you think?  

        It feels like you are saying, if you don't like this country, move elsewhere???  

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