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I had New England Cable News on in the background while waiting for Chris Matthews' show to go off the air Chris Hayes' show to come on the air, and my ears perked up when I heard a discussion about the ongoing controversy with respect to Boston's St. Patrick's Day parade.

As many folks here already know, Boston's new mayor, Marty Walsh, said on February 26 that he would not march in the South Boston St. Patrick's Day parade unless they lifted their ban on LGBT groups.

A few days ago the situation seemed to be resolved and it was announced that a group of "gay Irish veterans" was going to be allowed to march.  Under the terms of the agreement, marchers would be barred from wearing T-shirts or holding signs that included the word gay or other references to sexual orientation (no other marching groups are allowed to carry signs either).

It seemed that the 20 year ban on LGBT groups in the St. Patrick's Day parade was finally over.

A Roman Catholic parochial school group decided to withdraw from the parade rather than share the street with gay people whom they knew were gay.  Emphasis mine, since apparently parade organizers realize that it's pretty well certain than gay people are marching in the parade anyway:

“There are a lot of gay people that march in the parade,” [parade organizer] Wuschke said. “That’s a common misconception [that gay people cannot march in the event]. We don’t know who’s gay in the parade, and we don’t ban gay people. We ban gay demonstrations, people that are sending out the wrong messages, messages that we don’t agree with.
But two days ago the decision was reversed and the deal pulled off the table.  For now LGBT Veterans of Equality is not being allowed to march (and the parochial school is back in).

As I said, a lot of folks here know this backstory already.

But I am writing because of what I heard on NECN two hours ago.  Follow me below the fleur de kos for the reason why my head is still spinning!

This woman named Wendy Murphy, billed as a legal analyst, was talking about the parade on a local news show.  This was her explanation of why she thought the decision NOT to let the MassEquality group march was understandable:

Murphy:  ...it sounds unfair to us cause it seems so mean.  If you know Irish people that are gay, you can't make sense... why can't a gay Irish person march in the parade?  But you have to remember if this were a parade of a different kind of group, let's say it was you know black activists wanting to celebrate being black, you would not want the KKK to show up and say "and you have to let us march in your parade".  and the fact that those two interests clash, that there is this group... and the KKK has no protection so I don't want to--that's maybe that's not a good comparison

Host:  good example?

Murphy:   but the point is that there are clashing very fundamental interests on both sides.  one group saying don't discriminate, but that bumps up against this right to portray a message under the first amendment that is really a paramount interest.  the first amendment sits at the top of the bill of rights because it is the most weighty, the most fundamental of rights in this particular dispute.

Host:  so in this particular dispute the first amendment rights of the parade organizers

Murphy:  that's right

Host:  are supreme over the...

Murphy:  cause it's their parade

Host:  it's their parade, okay

Murphy:  That's right if the gay organizers want to have a separate gay irish people's parade they can do that and they don't have to let somebody who has contrary views to theirs march in their parade.

Um, WHAT?

WHAT?  THE?  FRAK?

How in the world is allowing an LGBT group to march in a St. Patrick's parade analogous in ANY WAY to having a KKK group at a Black pride march?

I know that Murphy tried to take her analogy back, but under the reasoning that the KKK is not "protected".  THAT'S the reason she doesn't want to make the analogy?  Not, um, all the other possible reasons why the analogy is not only false but insulting to black people and gay people?  And gay people who are also black?

I'm not even sure what her first amendment remarks are supposed to mean.  That the parade organizers' right to freedom of association means they can exclude LGBT marchers (unless they stay in the closet)?  That it is a matter of "conflicting views" rather than discrimination?  Being gay is not part of Irish Heritage?  And the parade organizers have a "right to portray a message under the first amendment"?  What message would that be, exactly?  A message that excluding LGBT marchers from their parade is honorable somehow?  That they are proud of their right to discriminate against an Irish LGBT group or a veterans LGBT group?  Worst of all, they toss around the term "family friendly event" as if gay folks don't have and belong to families.  GRRR!

This has been going on for more than 20 years, but eventually the Southie parade organizers are going to lose this battle.  They cannot in essence have a private parade on public streets with police protection that is paid for by the taxes of all Bostonians, including the gay ones they won't allow to march.  Or can they?  IANAL, but it just doesn't make sense.

Southie, by reputation, haz a sad that it is not the homogenous community it was a generation or two ago.  "Different" people are moving in and they have no control over that.  But dagnabbit they can still maintain control over who marches in their parade!  They may not be able to exclude folks in other places and times, but for now they have court ordered approval to discriminate, and they are going to cling to it as long as they can.

I hate to link to HuffPo, but this article makes several good points, and these two paragraphs are the heart of it:

Last month Catholic Archbishop of Dublin Diarmuid Martin denounced homophobia, saying, "Anybody who doesn't show love towards gay and lesbian people is insulting God," and that homophobia was "part of the culture we grew up in, but we have to grow out of it."

This shift in attitude from official Ireland blatantly undermines claims from those in New York, Boston and elsewhere that public LGBT participation somehow contravenes Irish identity. If open LGBT participation in St. Patrick's Day parades are okay in Dublin, Cork and elsewhere, why not in New York and Boston?

I wish the regular host of the show I was watching, who is one of the few liberals on talk radio in this town, had been there to hear Ms. Murphy make her "Gay is to Irish Heritage as KKK is to Black Pride" analogy.  I wonder how he might have reacted.  Aren't the gay people who want to march Irish also?  For any part of her bizarre analogy to be valid, the KKK people who wanted to march in the black pride parade would have to be black themselves!

Am I crazy, or is that Wendy Murphy quote above one of the most outrageous things anyone has ever said about LGBT exclusion from St. Patrick's day parades?

@#@#@#@#@

Woke up to find this on the rec list!  Many thanks to the Rescue Rangers and the other groups who republished!

I want to add one more thing:  there is always a lot of folderol around here on StP Day that "we are all Irish" or words to that effect.  Lots of people with no Irish heritage are wearing green and eating green bagels and drinking green beer and wearing green carnations.  Local media like to create a false sense of inclusion, as though "the whole city" is caught up in the festivities, and photographers hunt around for people of color to photograph.  That's majorly annoying too, since EXclusion is such a big part of the parade history now.

Originally posted to TrueBlueMajority on Thu Mar 06, 2014 at 07:02 PM PST.

Also republished by Shamrock American Kossacks, LGBT Rights are Human Rights, and Community Spotlight.

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  •  Tip Jar (135+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
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    Politics is like driving. To go backward put it in R. To go forward put it in D.
    DEMAND CREATES JOBS!!!
    Drop by The Grieving Room on Monday nights to talk about grief.

    by TrueBlueMajority on Thu Mar 06, 2014 at 07:02:19 PM PST

  •  sorry I forgot to personalize the tip jar (47+ / 0-)

    i've been on short sleep for days and need to have a very long work day tomorrow, Saturday and Sunday.  It was my intention to be asleep long before now.  If this diary gets any attention I won't be able to respond to comments for long.  But I just had to tell somebody how freaked out I was by Wendy Murphy's remarks.

    Politics is like driving. To go backward put it in R. To go forward put it in D.
    DEMAND CREATES JOBS!!!
    Drop by The Grieving Room on Monday nights to talk about grief.

    by TrueBlueMajority on Thu Mar 06, 2014 at 07:06:24 PM PST

    •  Get your rest (14+ / 0-)

      You done good with this diary. I've been watching this too and am just as puzzled by the "logic."

    •  How does one customize the Tip Jar? n/t (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      TrueBlueMajority, jilikins

      The word "parent" is supposed to be a VERB, people...

      by wesmorgan1 on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 06:12:14 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Wendy Murphy (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      milkbone

      is a well-publicized imbecile and media hound.   She used to be a prosecutor (which is her formal training) and continues to defend uncorroborated "recovered memories" as sufficient proof for old child abuse allegations.  

      •  While she may well be an imbecile and media hound, (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        TrueBlueMajority, marykk, lineatus

        as someone who suffered incestuous abuse for years at the hands of my father and didn't actually remember the events until well into my twenties, I have a hard time with that part of your comment -- none with being utterly dismissive of a person who would make such a bone-headed comparison as this woman has.

        But the truth is that in cases of molestation or incest that happened decades ago, often there is no other proof, which is one fairly substantial part of why sexual molestation of children (especially your own) is probably one of the safest crimes to commit out there -- the probability of being charged, let alone convicted, is incredibly low as compared to the estimated number of assaults.

    •  Wendy Murphy advocates for victims of crime and (0+ / 0-)

      discrimination as an attorney and as a professor. I'm surprised she's supporting Irish Heritage's right to deny gay groups.

      And starting their own, separate gay inclusive parade won't be so easy. The parade in South Boston has been going on for over 100 years.

      •  She is not really "supporting" anything (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        TrueBlueMajority

        She was on the local cable news station as a "pop" talking head on legal issues. The producers basically tell such people before the interview, "We need you to explain why they're able to exclude from a legal standpoint."

        "Starting their own, separate gay inclusive parade" will be quite easy. It's already been happening for a number years now. They march right after the "other" one. The crowds are not as big but it's there.

        “Republicans...think American standard of living is a fine thing--so long as it doesn't spread to all the people... And they admire of Government of the United States so much that they would like to buy it.” Harry S. Truman

        by fenway49 on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 03:11:30 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  John F. Kennedy's lifestyle choice. (0+ / 0-)

        First, religion is a choice--there are no cases of "closeted" Catholics or "latent" Lutherans struggling to deny their truths as tragic as gays who live a lie to satisfy other people who really have no business insisting they deny the truth.

        If John F. Kennedy had chosen to deny his Catholicism and his Irishness, the road to the White House would have been a lot easier for him. Yet he chose to live his truth.

        A century before JFK outed himself as an Irish Catholic in the West Virginia primary campaign, many employers had signs in their doors saying, "No Irish need apply." The Irish experience is a lot closer to the gay experience and the Black experience than the Klan victim card.

        So why would Wendy Murphy think that a group of Gay Irish Americans would inspire the same fear in Irish heteros as a group of nightriders would to Blacks? As paranoid-style politics goes, that is rather lame.

        Freedom's just another word for not enough to eat. --Paul Krugman's characterization of conservative attitudes.

        by Judge Moonbox on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 07:49:16 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Murphy is a jackass. That's rarely said about (20+ / 0-)

    a female, but there it is. Gender equality.
    She's as bad as Clint Van Zandt.

    You can't make this stuff up.

    by David54 on Thu Mar 06, 2014 at 07:11:34 PM PST

  •  The KKK was a paramilitary terror organization (15+ / 0-)

    wtf

    "See? I'm not a racist! I have a black friend!"

    by TheHalfrican on Thu Mar 06, 2014 at 07:28:57 PM PST

    •  Sesame Street does not do this any more (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      geez53, CuriousBoston, Cedwyn, Penny GC

      the idea that something "does not belong" because it is different is no longer a good thing to teach children

      but i take your point!

      one of these things is not like the others, and it still "belongs" even though it is different.

      Politics is like driving. To go backward put it in R. To go forward put it in D.
      DEMAND CREATES JOBS!!!
      Drop by The Grieving Room on Monday nights to talk about grief.

      by TrueBlueMajority on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 07:15:50 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I don't know what's on Sesame Street (0+ / 0-)

        but there's nothing wrong with being able to distinguish the difference between two and three. Accepting all people as having equal rights does not mean you give up knowing s--t from shinola.

        "All governments lie, but disaster lies in wait for countries whose officials smoke the same hashish they give out." --I.F. Stone

        by Alice in Florida on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 02:06:36 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  telling the difference between two and three is OK (0+ / 0-)

          but to say one of these things is not like the others and as a result it "doesn't belong" is the wrong message.

          we don't want to teach children that things/people have to be exactly the same in order to "belong".

          Politics is like driving. To go backward put it in R. To go forward put it in D.
          DEMAND CREATES JOBS!!!
          Drop by The Grieving Room on Monday nights to talk about grief.

          by TrueBlueMajority on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 02:18:31 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I have a feeling that the children who watched (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Alice in Florida

            Cookie monster sing that song didn't become racists or homophobes because of that song, or that segment.

            It's nice that the children's television workshop changed it, but I don't think it'll solve our problems with people who actually think other people don't belong.

            "You don't have to be smart to laugh at fart jokes, but you have to be stupid not to." - Louis CK

            by New Jersey Boy on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 07:09:00 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

  •  *facepalm* (25+ / 0-)

    Yeah. Because there are no Irish in the LGBT community. What an idiotic statement.

    Time is of no account with great thoughts, which are as fresh to-day as when they first passed through their authors' minds ages ago. - Samuel Smiles

    by moviemeister76 on Thu Mar 06, 2014 at 07:32:58 PM PST

  •  Let me look at this. (35+ / 0-)
    ...why can't a gay Irish person march in the parade?  But you have to remember if this were a parade of a different kind of group, let's say it was you know black activists wanting to celebrate being black, you would not want the KKK to show up and say "and you have to let us march in your parade"....
    So, in this analogy, Irish people are like black people (they're the ones holding the parade) and LGBT people are like the KKK. For this analogy to make any sense beyond being homophobic word salad, Murphy has to think that LGBT people want to discriminate against or do worse to Irish people the way the KKK treated black people.
    •  ok i'm awake now (10+ / 0-)

      that is exacly my point, vacantlook!  The LGBT marchers are the KKK in this analogy?  what the fcuk?

      and this:

      Murphy has to think that LGBT people want to discriminate against or do worse to Irish people the way the KKK treated black people
      i don't know any about this woman and never saw her before last night, so I have no idea of her political views but just the idea that her mind could FORM that analogy, even if she tried to take it back, it mind boggling.

      Politics is like driving. To go backward put it in R. To go forward put it in D.
      DEMAND CREATES JOBS!!!
      Drop by The Grieving Room on Monday nights to talk about grief.

      by TrueBlueMajority on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 06:09:09 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  If "paying tax" is "just like Slavery" (9+ / 0-)

      well then it naturally follows that the LGBT Community is just like the KKK ...  at least when they try to push in where they're not wanted.

      And of course there's the sad and ugly history of GLBT people donning the  capirote  (on which KKK regalia is based) ,  and burning heretics at the stake.

      Oh, wait ... that was the Inquistion.

      And y'know ... the Inquisition was NOT "Protestant."

      •  The last four centuries (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        marykk

        in the North of Ireland were "Protestant." Come to think of it, the KKK was, and is, "Protestant." Ask Al Smith.

        “Republicans...think American standard of living is a fine thing--so long as it doesn't spread to all the people... And they admire of Government of the United States so much that they would like to buy it.” Harry S. Truman

        by fenway49 on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 09:00:08 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  It's more like the other way around (9+ / 0-)

      ...the KKK not allowing black people at their march because by definition they reject them.

      It's assumed that all Irish are Catholics,
      Catholics reject homosexuality as sin,
      thus it would make the Church group
      (and presumably all the otherIrish participants)
      "uncomfortable" to include gay people.

      There you have it.

    •  I'm surprised there is so much confusion (0+ / 0-)

      over this.  It is well-established by the supreme court that the right of association allows the parade organizers to choose who can participate.  The analogy with the KKK is apt.  Should a black organization be required to allow the KKK to participate?  The court says no.  And that is the correct decision IMO.  As relayed, it appears she was not particularly articulate, but her statement is pretty much legal boilerplate on the issue.  Raising the KKK scenario does not mean she is equating gays who want to march in Boston with the KKK.  She is merely offering an example that makes the court's reasoning clear.  

      •  confusion? i am not confused. (0+ / 0-)

        who seems confused to you?

        Politics is like driving. To go backward put it in R. To go forward put it in D.
        DEMAND CREATES JOBS!!!
        Drop by The Grieving Room on Monday nights to talk about grief.

        by TrueBlueMajority on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 04:38:12 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  You certainly seem to be confused (0+ / 0-)

          about the law on this issue, based upon the express language of the diary.  This issue was resolved 20 years ago by the supreme court.

          •  i am aware of the law (0+ / 0-)

            i was living here 20 years ago during the case.

            what i and others find objectionable is the idea of comparing the inclusion of gay people to the inclusion of a hate group

            Politics is like driving. To go backward put it in R. To go forward put it in D.
            DEMAND CREATES JOBS!!!
            Drop by The Grieving Room on Monday nights to talk about grief.

            by TrueBlueMajority on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 06:54:48 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Well, that's legal argumentation (0+ / 0-)

              particularly in the constitutional law realm.  It is important to draw the court's attention to the ramifications of a potential decision and the most incendiary examples are the most convincing.  There is an old adage- good cases make bad law.  It is true more often than one would like to believe.  If the court ruled that gays could not be excluded because they are not hostile to the parade's intent, the ramifications would be horrendous for other groups, including gay and lesbian groups.  

              In the Bowers case, for example, Tribe, arguing for Hardwick, claimed at oral argument that one could have an expectation of privacy in a public restroom stall.  Many argued he went too far and likely derailed the chance for a positive ruling with that statement.  You may find that scenario offensive as well (comparing consensual sex in the home to a restroom), but that is how the law is argued.  

              As much as we may not like the result of the court's decision, it was correct, as the unanimity of the justices would indicate.

              •  i'm not sure what is supposed to be offensive (0+ / 0-)

                about your example.

                I have no problem with the idea of the expectation of privacy in a public restroom, for sex or for the purpose of other bodily functions

                therefore i do not see your point in bringing up that case.

                but I am interested in this part of your comment:

                If the court ruled that gays could not be excluded because they are not hostile to the parade's intent, the ramifications would be horrendous for other groups, including gay and lesbian groups
                because this seems closer to the issue at hand and what I think you are trying to argue.

                no one has said exactly what "message" gay marchers would bring that is "contrary" to what Wacko Hurley's group is trying to convey.

                and if someone were to make that message overt--that there is something about being gay that is inherently not family friendly or in some other way deserves exclusion from the event, we might find that what nine people felt was acceptable to think about gay people 20 years ago is unacceptable now.

                As much as we may not like the result of the court's decision, it was correct, as the unanimity of the justices would indicate.
                ROFL i thought you were some kind of legal expert until I read that!  Pace v. Alabama was unanimously decided also!

                Politics is like driving. To go backward put it in R. To go forward put it in D.
                DEMAND CREATES JOBS!!!
                Drop by The Grieving Room on Monday nights to talk about grief.

                by TrueBlueMajority on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 06:16:11 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  I don't find it offensive (0+ / 0-)

                  but many did.  I raised that merely because it popped into my head as a related example of the implications of legal reasoning.  Tribe possibly went too far for the justices in drawing the sphere of privacy for same sex consensual activity.  It raised the negative stereotype of gay men having sex in public environments.  

                  Yes, that is my point.  It is also my point that the message being conveyed by participation in the parade is irrelevant to the analysis.  It is the group's right to determine who is allowed entry.

                  You completely misread my last comment, possibly for the purpose of making a snide comment.  If you read my words more closely, I said the unanimity of the court would "indicate," not prove.  The Rehnquist court was extremely fractured.  It could rarely reach a consensus on major constitutional issues.  It was not uncommon to have an opinion severely split.  See Casey as a prime example.  That decision is a mess.  

                  The fact that you had to reach back to the 19th century to find an offensive unanimous decision doesn't bolster your position.  It is not a revelation that the court has reached some bad decisions.  I could provide a laundry list of them.  However, in this arena, the court's decision is not controversial to most legal scholars.  I use most because I am not aware of any legal opposition to the court's ruling in the parade case.  Sure, people were unhappy with the result, but the reasoning is sound.  You are focused on the nature of the group, as if some groups should have more rights under the first amendment than others based upon the content of their speech (eg, gays should be allowed to march in the parade, but they should retain the right to deny entry in their events to those they would choose to deny).  Content-based restrictions such as this are verboten under the first amendment (a longstanding position of the court) except with rare exceptions (mostly related to commercial speech).  I would love to hear your legal argument for why the Boston parade should be forced to admit gays and lesbians against its will.  

                  •  you are the lawyer, not me (0+ / 0-)

                    So I can't make a legal argument.  i am just a well read layperson who keeps asking legal experts on what grounds gays or women or blacks can be excluded from an event using public streets and public resources, when their existence is in no way contrary to what the organizers claim is the purpose of the parade.

                    I want bigotry to be illegal and I want some legal person to explain to me why it is not illegal already.

                    You are focused on the nature of the group, as if some groups should have more rights under the first amendment than others based upon the content of their speech
                    I am not saying anything at all about the content of their speech.  It is the parade organizers who are claiming that the mere presence of gay people is contrary to the stated purpose of their parade.  The SCt blithely accepted that as a valid argument, and I believe the reason they did so was because of attitudes toward gay rights in 1995 that may not still be so "obvious" today.

                    the "reasoning was sound" in Pace v Alabama also, for its time and place.  i did not pick that case out of the air.  that case was unanimous for similar reasons.  It was "obvious" according to the mores of the time that it was OK to criminalize interracial relationships.  Thankfully, it was not as obvious in 1967.

                    i want the parade organizers to be forced to state their bigotry openly.  so far they have been able to sidestep the issue.  i want them to have to say exactly what their problem is.  What is the conflicting issue, what is the conflicting message?  What is their problem with gay Irish people marching in the parade.  Not "gay rights marchers" as they were called in Hurley v GLIB.  They are carrying no signs, wearing no message t-shirts, only holding an organizer-approved banner as other groups hold banners.  How is their mere presence contrary to what the parade organizers want to portray with their parade?

                    The only sense in which they are promoting any kind of gay rights "message" is that they want the right to exist openly, which is too much for some people.

                    gays should be allowed to march in the parade, but they should retain the right to deny entry in their events to those they would choose to deny
                    All I am asking is that if you are going to claim that someone being in your parade is contrary to the message of your parade you should have to state why that is so.  There are factual reasons why the presence of KKK members is contrary to the purpose of a black pride parade.  There are similar reasons why the presence of Westboro is contrary to a gay rights parade.  But arbitrary discrimination in a public place using public resources should not stand.

                    The only "message" that the organizers don't want to convey is that they want to live in a world where gay people don't exist.  And I fully believe that some day that will no longer be enough under the law.

                    Politics is like driving. To go backward put it in R. To go forward put it in D.
                    DEMAND CREATES JOBS!!!
                    Drop by The Grieving Room on Monday nights to talk about grief.

                    by TrueBlueMajority on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 12:59:49 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

      •  I agree that this might have been the intent. (0+ / 0-)

        However, the mangled presentation makes all "unfair" responses completely justified.

        If you're going to sell buttons that say, "I"m not Irish, but you can kiss me anyway," you can accept the marchers who say, "I'm not straight, but I'm Irish anyway."

        It's always been the most inclusive ethnic holiday, why ruin it?

        What does The Pope say?  heh.

        "You don't have to be smart to laugh at fart jokes, but you have to be stupid not to." - Louis CK

        by New Jersey Boy on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 07:17:25 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  That's a separate point (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          New Jersey Boy

          and I agree with you on that.  I was addressing the law on the matter.  Frankly, as an American of Irish descent who has spent a little bit of time in the north of Ireland and less in Dublin, I think the resistance is a cultural issue.  The Irish tend to be very wary of people "standing out."  Drawing attention to oneself is often considered an unacceptable form of arrogance.  I imagine many of the parade sponsors have no problem with gay and lesbian Irish marching in the parade, but may also think...why do they have to stand out?  I think an Irish ethos is more likely at play than homophobia in most instances.  Mary Gordon, an Irish American writer wrote a piece for the NYT Book Review about 25 years ago called, "Why my family won't read my books."  Her explication of the Irish "ways" rang very true to my own experience.  I recommend the article.  

  •  So much pretzel logic, it can't be untwisted. (33+ / 0-)

    pretzel logic

    Wow.  

    Using the KKK to compare to LGBT?  What?  Were the Nazis were busy?

    Somebody told me that you had a boyfriend who looked like a girlfriend that I had in February of last year.

    by koosah on Thu Mar 06, 2014 at 07:45:05 PM PST

  •  Who owns/sponsors/organizes the parade? (4+ / 0-)

    "Because I am a river to my people."

    by lordcopper on Thu Mar 06, 2014 at 07:52:11 PM PST

  •  Interesting They Didn't Think of Ulster Defense nt (9+ / 0-)

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Thu Mar 06, 2014 at 07:59:41 PM PST

  •  She must have meant black members of the KKK (20+ / 0-)

    want to march in a black pride parade.  It's the only way the analogy works.

    That reminds me of an old Dave Chappelle skit about a blind old black man who doesn't realize he's black and is a virulently racist white supremacist member of the KKK, and they don't realize he's black because he's wearing a hood, and he doesn't realize he's black because he's blind.

    "Out of Many, One Nation." This is the great promise of these United States of America -9.75 -6.87

    by Uncle Moji on Thu Mar 06, 2014 at 08:17:03 PM PST

    •  It's that her mind even went there (17+ / 0-)

      that has told me all I need to know. This is the religious freedom movement lapping upon the shores of other deeply held hostilities.

    •  i remember that Chapelle skit--brilliant (7+ / 0-)

      and yes, unless she means black members of the KKK, it doesn;t make any sense at all

      but I'm pretty sure she did not mean black members of the KKK.

      either she was expressing her own thoughts, or saying what she believes parade organizers think (if I want to give her any benefit of the doubt), that the LGBT community would cause a level of harm to the parade organizers on a par with the harm done to black people by the KKK.  that somehow we should understand the parade organizers are JUSTIFIED in their exclusion of the LGBT group because of fear of them, or anger about what has been done in the past, or something.

      actually she may not be too far off about the fear part.

      Politics is like driving. To go backward put it in R. To go forward put it in D.
      DEMAND CREATES JOBS!!!
      Drop by The Grieving Room on Monday nights to talk about grief.

      by TrueBlueMajority on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 06:15:33 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Damn I miss Chappelle (5+ / 0-)

      That skit was funny as hell.  Maybe I'm not paying attention, but I don't believe any comedian has arose to match his brilliance.  Maybe Russell Brand, but Chappelle was more pertinent to American issues.

      "When I was an alien, cultures weren't opinions" ~ Kurt Cobain, Territorial Pissings

      by Subterranean on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 08:43:31 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Where is he? I remember he had a freak out. (0+ / 0-)

        I think I remember he went out of the U.S. to clear his thoughts or something.

        I haven't heard from him since.

        "You don't have to be smart to laugh at fart jokes, but you have to be stupid not to." - Louis CK

        by New Jersey Boy on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 07:22:40 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  He lives in rural SW Ohio in the little village (0+ / 0-)

          of very progressive Yellow Springs (where he spent his summers with his father) and can live a low-profile regular life as a man, father and husband.  He still tours.  

          I don't think he "freaked out", he found out who he was, and the lesson each man should learn: What do you value as a man?

          "Out of Many, One Nation." This is the great promise of these United States of America -9.75 -6.87

          by Uncle Moji on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 07:39:15 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  I knew his father, Bill Chappelle (0+ / 0-)

        and it never surprised me that Dave had as keen an insight on American life, particularly how we deal or don't deal with racism and the stupidity of racism, as he has.  

        Never met his mother, but I understand that she was as great or greater (his parents were divorced and lived in different states) an influence on Dave and with an even more brilliantly honed understanding of real American life.

        The guy is a brilliant writer, brilliant comedian, and most importantly, a real human being who actually believes living life consciously is the most important journey and pursuit of the living.

        "Out of Many, One Nation." This is the great promise of these United States of America -9.75 -6.87

        by Uncle Moji on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 07:32:15 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  I would be ever so curious (8+ / 0-)

    to know how their Pope would weigh in on this.

  •  "there are clashing very fundamental interests (17+ / 0-)

    on both sides."

    That is, Irish homosexuals and heterosexuals?  "Clashing" interests?

    Good grief, this person isn't living in the current day or age.

    "So, please stay where you are. Don't move and don't panic. Don't take off your shoes! Jobs is on the way."

    by wader on Thu Mar 06, 2014 at 08:21:50 PM PST

  •  That's about the most inappropriate analogy (15+ / 0-)

    I have ever read, bar none.  Given the sea change that has occurred in the nation on LGBT rights in the last decade, you'd think the only way these Southies could cling so tightly to their bigotry was by living in one of the more isolated parts of the country.  By they live in frigging Massachusetts, the first state to legalize same-sex marriage!  You'd think somebody down there might have noticed!

    I expect this is one of those instances where a generation has to die before the change will come.

    -5.13,-5.64; GOP thinking: A 13 year path to citizenship is too easy, and a 5 minute background check is too burdensome. -- 1audreyrenee

    by gizmo59 on Thu Mar 06, 2014 at 08:24:10 PM PST

    •  in a way, they do live in an isolated area (5+ / 0-)

      Southie is its own world in many ways.  It has resisted being part of Massachusetts/Boston attitudes.  The neighborhood is a throwback and proud of it, with some considering it an oasis in the midst of librul craziness.

      Politics is like driving. To go backward put it in R. To go forward put it in D.
      DEMAND CREATES JOBS!!!
      Drop by The Grieving Room on Monday nights to talk about grief.

      by TrueBlueMajority on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 06:22:32 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yes, Southie is still a world onto itself. Decades (4+ / 0-)

        ago I was with a friend nicknamed Red visiting her relatives. The family tore down to the beach to see the fight between the "invaders" and the locals. totally confused, I asked whether it was a private or public beach, and what the problem was. Her cousins were carrying baseball bats. Naive me.

        The St. Patricks Day political breakfast and roast still continue. TV at it's finest. Politicians of non-Irish background are now admitted, I believe.

        Help Senator Warren. Encourage people to co-sponsor her bills, & the bills she has cosponsored. Elect Ed Markey.

        by CuriousBoston on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 08:39:19 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Wendy Murphy (10+ / 0-)

    Paid TV Liar.

    Thank you for this diary . . . the skin crawls.

    Be sure you put your feet in the right place; then stand firm. ~ Abraham Lincoln

    by noweasels on Thu Mar 06, 2014 at 08:28:22 PM PST

  •  No, you're not crazy, but maybe Ms Murphy is... (5+ / 0-)

    the KKK was founded to restrict the rights (even the right to life) of African-Americans.  Does she think LGBT folks are out to restrict the rights of Irish-Americans?  
    Whatever comes of this, I think there should be a group of thousands of LGBT Irish-Americans marching together in the next Boston Gay Pride...just to show discrimination only goes one way.  

    Armed! I feel like a savage! Barbarella

    by richardvjohnson on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 02:25:05 AM PST

    •  well said (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      richardvjohnson, CuriousBoston, sfbob

      speaking from the small-minded point of view, LGBT folks are trying to restrict the right of Southie parade organizers to keep gay people in the closet.

      since as my quote in the diary says, they know there are gay Irish people and some of them even march in the parade!

      but apparently they want to right to shield themselves, "the children" or God knows who from the horror of seeing openly gay people in their midst.

      or something.  i have no idea how these people think really.  I'm just guessing because my mind wants to make sense of it somehow, and I just can't!

      Politics is like driving. To go backward put it in R. To go forward put it in D.
      DEMAND CREATES JOBS!!!
      Drop by The Grieving Room on Monday nights to talk about grief.

      by TrueBlueMajority on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 06:26:26 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  She said it was a bad analogy. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    dallasdunlap, NYFM, orestes1963

    Her point was it's an Irish Pride Parade, not a Gay Pride Parade. They just don't want their Parade splintered from their intended purpose. why is that so hard to grasp?

    •  They weren't to be allowed signage (10+ / 0-)

      Or even tee shirts denoting their orientation. How is that "splintering" anything? Your comment just goes to show us that even liberals can sometimes sound like homophobes.

      "Given the choice between a Republican and someone who acts like a Republican, people will vote for a real Republican every time." Harry Truman

      by MargaretPOA on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 03:31:24 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Is Bubblehead580 a liberal? (3+ / 0-)

        I just glanced at comment history and it's- interesting.

      •  So you call me a homophobe? (0+ / 0-)

        Have you ever been to an event or heard of an event that was for a cause and 15 different groups were there with 15 different causes. It changes the Parade from one meaning to two meanings, or three, or four, or five...etc.

         It makes no difference if they agree or disagree with the added message, it's not their message and it's their Parade.

         As far as bad analogies go this woman's analogy's biggest flaw was there aren't many Black KKK members.  

        •  You're right on the edge (7+ / 0-)

          with this bs devil's advocacy. "There aren't many black KKK members?" Is that supposed to be funny? Because it isn't. Not even a little bit.

          •  I wasn't trying to be funny. (0+ / 0-)

            There are plenty of LGBT within the Irish Community. My guess is there's zero KKK members in the Black Community, therefore it's not a proper analogy.

            •  you still have not said (3+ / 0-)

              what you see as the conflict between the LGBTQ marchers and the parade organizers "message"

              Politics is like driving. To go backward put it in R. To go forward put it in D.
              DEMAND CREATES JOBS!!!
              Drop by The Grieving Room on Monday nights to talk about grief.

              by TrueBlueMajority on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 07:27:27 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Who said it has to conflict? (0+ / 0-)

                If my message is to promote one thing the second thing doesn't have to conflict for someone to decide not to include it. I could have a pack of matches and a lighter and decide I only need to carry one.

                 If I have any issue at all with LGBT it's the assumption everyone is required to carry their banner or it means they are against them.

                Can't a group just do something on their own without having to sing the LGBT message?  Can you imagine any circumstance a group could be allowed to just have one theme and it not be a slight?

                •  They're not asking... (4+ / 0-)

                  ..."everyone" to carry the banner; they're not asking to turn the entire parade into a gay pride parade, they're just asking to be part of it. You still seem to think being gay and being Irish are exclusive of one another.

                  "Sing the LGBT message"? Equality. Inclusion. Diversity. What horrible things to be celebrating.

                  •  Well they did ask and they were told no. (0+ / 0-)

                    I don't know enough background on this Parade as to how the Parade is organized. If they allow other groups but don't allow a gay group then I agree it's unfair. But if the goal of the parade is just to be Irish why can't the LGBT community just put on green and be part of the group they so loudly complain they are excluded from?

                    •  They're not being allowed to... (3+ / 0-)

                      ...that's why they can't. What's the point of participating if you're expected to be invisible. This is a parade, not a shapeless crowd hanging out in the middle of the road. To put an unidentified group of people as an entrant in a parade defies the entire concept of a parade. Having been in a fair number of parades (not LGBT pride ones), entrants all participate with some form of identification, otherwise viewers would end up asking, "Who in the world is this unidentified group of people in the parade."

                      •  Some are homogenous. Like Military or maybe Irish (0+ / 0-)

                        I don't know if they allow other groups, do you know what other groups were allowed in the Parade?

                        •  This is not hard to find (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Tonedevil, TrueBlueMajority

                          The parade is quite prominent here in Boston. There are all sorts of groups within the parade. There are contingents and floats from radio stations and car dealerships. There are dueling Star Wars characters. There are guys dressed up like Ghostbusters.

                          That said, much as it pains me, they have the legal right not be forced to "say" anything they don't want to say, even if what they "say" is a muddled mess. It's their legal right to say the "message" of the parade is "Irish. And Catholic, but only conservative Catholic. And invade Iraq. And stormtroopers are cool. And buy your next car from Herb Chambers, 79 convenient locations."  But not other messages.

                          Though it may be their legal right not to "say" anything they don't want to say, the fact that their parade "says" all this other crap really takes away from their moral argument. I can tell you right now that "Irish" are not homogenous in the least (see Ted Kennedy, Paul Ryan, and Billy Corgan) and many "Irish" here avoid this parade like the plague.

                          “Republicans...think American standard of living is a fine thing--so long as it doesn't spread to all the people... And they admire of Government of the United States so much that they would like to buy it.” Harry S. Truman

                          by fenway49 on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 12:33:44 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                    •  "Just to be Irish"? (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      TrueBlueMajority

                      It still sounds like you're assuming that there are no Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual or Transgendered Irish. I'm beginning to see why you chose that pseudonym. And here I thought you might be a submariner.

                      "Given the choice between a Republican and someone who acts like a Republican, people will vote for a real Republican every time." Harry Truman

                      by MargaretPOA on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 04:05:41 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I'm not really supportive of this idea generally. (0+ / 0-)

                        However poorly this argument was made, it's not unreasonable to limit the range of a parade, or protest in certain ways.

                        If it's an Irish Parade, let people from various groups march and carry their banner for their Irish organization: churches, police departments, boy scout troops, etc.

                        Just don't add another political hornet's nest if possible: Irish who support abortion rights, IRA groups, Irish legalize Marijuana group. Yes, Gay Irish.

                        What if the Irish Skin Heads were precluded to march because it would distract from the parade's theme?

                        To turn the original argument on it's head, what if there was and Irish KKK group that wanted to march and they were also told "no" for the same reason?

                        I'm not making the argument, merely exploring it.

                        "You don't have to be smart to laugh at fart jokes, but you have to be stupid not to." - Louis CK

                        by New Jersey Boy on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 07:36:43 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                •  you are the one who said (0+ / 0-)

                  LGBT marchers would splinter the parade from its intended purpose

                  you are the one who said "it's not their message"

                  the parade organizers say there is a conflict, and you apparently agree with them, and I am trying to figure out why

                  Politics is like driving. To go backward put it in R. To go forward put it in D.
                  DEMAND CREATES JOBS!!!
                  Drop by The Grieving Room on Monday nights to talk about grief.

                  by TrueBlueMajority on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 01:56:05 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

            •  Take issue with the word "many" (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Tonedevil

              so forgive me if I don't buy your doe-eyed innocence. You're not the first to ply that technique.

        •  You sound like a homophobe. (11+ / 0-)

          Telling LGBT people they have no right to participate just because some people don't want to know they exist, yeah, that's homophobic.

          You also sound like you've never seen a parade before. It's not just a giant mass of people walking down the street. They're grouped, and those different subgroups march as unites, which means a parade is "splintered" (to use your earlier word) by definition.

          The biggest flaw in the KKK analogy is that the KKK were/are a hate group that hated black people. LGBT people are people, and their being LGBT is a part of who they are. The two are in no way comparable. The LGBT people seeking to participate in this parade want to celebrate their dual nature: being gay and being Irish. It's about being.

          But what we have here in their being denied participation is no different than Ahmadinejad saying there are no gay people in Iran. You're trying to force LGBT people to be in the closet. And yeah, that's homophobic.

          And homophobes don't own being Irish.

        •  if you are not a homophobe (3+ / 0-)

          then i question why you are trying to justify an unjustifiable decision that only makes sense to homophobes

          Politics is like driving. To go backward put it in R. To go forward put it in D.
          DEMAND CREATES JOBS!!!
          Drop by The Grieving Room on Monday nights to talk about grief.

          by TrueBlueMajority on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 06:28:14 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  It does not only make sense to homophobes (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            New Jersey Boy, Whatithink

            The right of an organization to determine who can participate in their public events is something that minority groups in particular should stand to endorse.  I do not want a gay pride parade to be compelled to allow Westboro or other hateful groups to participate in the parade or other events.  If one tries to force the St. Pat's parade to admit persons they choose not to, you must consider the consequences of that decision.  I disagree with the parade's decision, but it is their right to make that decision.  

            •  now you are using Westboro? damn. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              MargaretPOA

              and the words "hateful groups"

              there IS a message conflict between blacks and the KKK.  The KKK hates black folks and killed a bunch of them and keeps them from voting, etc.

              there IS a message conflict between a gay pride parade and Westboro.  Westboro hates gay folks and wishes them dead.

              do gay people, some of whom are Irish themselves, hate the St. Patrick's Day parade organizers?  Have they lynched them or stopped them from voting or done any harm to them at all?

              i am not referring to the SCt decision of which I am well aware.

              I am also well aware that the SCt is occasionally wrong.

              the bottom line is that no one, including you, has explained what the supposed message conflict is supposed to be between the StP Day parade and LGBT marchers.

              What is the message conflict?

              An analogy about excluding people from parades or other gatherings that puts gay people on the hate group side of the analogy is bizarre and offensive.

              Especially when the hate and irrationality is all going in the other direction

              Politics is like driving. To go backward put it in R. To go forward put it in D.
              DEMAND CREATES JOBS!!!
              Drop by The Grieving Room on Monday nights to talk about grief.

              by TrueBlueMajority on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 07:04:00 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  You can't see the point? (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                New Jersey Boy, Whatithink

                You are so consumed by the analogies that you refuse to see the larger point:  each group should retain the right to determine who can participate in their private activities.  Your concern for "message conflict" is immaterial to the issue at hand.  That should be obvious.  It is a red herring in the truest sense of the word, as your focus indicates.  

                Either a group has the right to determine who can participate or it does not.  If you advocate for the latter position, you are foolishly opening the door to the infiltration and likely destruction of all kinds of free association.  If you think that the courts should intercede to determine whether the unwanted group has a "message conflict," you have not considered the complications and constitutional problems with such an approach.  In brief, why should the court have the authority to violate the right to free association (which is considered a form of speech, by the way) of a group because it finds- contrary to the group- that there is no "message conflict" between the parties?  

                You apparently do not understand how legal analogies work.  I offered the example of Westboro not because I equate gay and lesbian Irish with that hate group (I am a gay Irish (former) Catholic myself), but because I thought it would be an example that would elicit some reflection from those who seem to think the supreme court's position should be overruled.  I vehemently disagree with that position and think it is simply a poorly considered viewpoint.

            •  You make an interesting argument. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              orestes1963

              I don't think you're a homophobe.

              It's making me think. I'm okay with that.

              "You don't have to be smart to laugh at fart jokes, but you have to be stupid not to." - Louis CK

              by New Jersey Boy on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 07:41:29 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  Nope. I didn't call you a homophobe (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          TrueBlueMajority

          I very clearly said that you "sound like" a homophobe. But your  deliberate misrepresentation of what I said outs you as a blog troll.

          "Given the choice between a Republican and someone who acts like a Republican, people will vote for a real Republican every time." Harry Truman

          by MargaretPOA on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 04:01:31 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  Because there are no gay Irish people? (5+ / 0-)

      I guess we're just supposed to ignore the green in the rainbow all because homophobes want to pretend gay people don't exist.

    •  so there are no gay people with Irish pride? (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      middleagedhousewife, sfbob, Tonedevil

      is that what you are saying?

      Politics is like driving. To go backward put it in R. To go forward put it in D.
      DEMAND CREATES JOBS!!!
      Drop by The Grieving Room on Monday nights to talk about grief.

      by TrueBlueMajority on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 06:27:21 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  what about their intended purpose (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      middleagedhousewife, sfbob, Tonedevil

      would be splintered by the inclusion of gay folks?

      Politics is like driving. To go backward put it in R. To go forward put it in D.
      DEMAND CREATES JOBS!!!
      Drop by The Grieving Room on Monday nights to talk about grief.

      by TrueBlueMajority on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 07:26:02 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Just curious (3+ / 0-)

      What self-identified groups get to march in the parade?

      The parade itself is organized by a veterans' group. This seems odd to me in a way; if I recall correctly the equally non-gay-friendly St Patrick's Day Parade in NYC is organized by the Loyal Sons of Hibernia which would make them a great deal more inclusive. I presume that one need not be veteran to march as an individual and that a group not be a veterans group to march as a group with its own banner. Unless of course it's a gay group.

      FWIW, gay Irish groups have marched in San Francisco's St Patrick's Day Parade for decades.

      •  This is a complicated history (3+ / 0-)

        At one time the "South Boston Allied War Veterans Council" was something of a progressive alternative. The parade before 1947 was run by the city. After the war there were many political clashes between the old guard machine Dems, most of whom were born in the 1800s, and the returning vets who wanted to move up in politics. Mayor James Michael Curley, the Rascal King, let the vets take over the parade as part of an effort to butter up the younger generation.

        It wasn't always reactionary. 50 years ago the NAACP had a float in the parade. A decade later that would have been, ahem, problematic. From the 70s on the neighborhood types retrenched into reactionary Reagan Democrat territory. Just about any liberal MA politician you've heard of has faced some hostility there. I believe South Boston narrowly went for Scott Brown over Warren.

        As I wrote about last year, the city/state forced them to let a gay group march in 1991 and 1992. In '93 they cancelled the parade and sued in advance of the 1994 version, winning at the Supreme Court. Today they have all sorts of bands, step dance schools, Catholic school groups, but also politicians (those who will go), civic groups, and stuff like stormtroopers, car dealers and other businesses. They take just about everyone except LGBT groups and anti-war vets.

        “Republicans...think American standard of living is a fine thing--so long as it doesn't spread to all the people... And they admire of Government of the United States so much that they would like to buy it.” Harry S. Truman

        by fenway49 on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 12:50:17 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  In other words (4+ / 0-)
          They take just about everyone except LGBT groups and anti-war vets.
          So any group at all, whether closely related to Irish heritage or not, is free to march under its own banner. Except for gay groups. And peace groups because the organizers "don't want the word 'peace' associated' with Saint Patrick." Which is really strange when you give even a moment's thought. As the organizers are a veterans group, assuming their goal is not a permanent state of war, why would they NOT want a peace group involved?
          •  Right (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            TrueBlueMajority, New Jersey Boy

            This is all about post-Vietnam, post-busing, post-Reagan culture wars.

            If you read about Tony Flaherty in my post, he was a Navy guy for decades. A lifelong South Boston Irish guy. He saw more combat than Wacko Hurley ever dreamed of and what he saw turned him against needless war. But they won't let his group in because they say a group for "peace" is "disrespectful" to the troops. Wacko's having Jane Fonda flashbacks.

            “Republicans...think American standard of living is a fine thing--so long as it doesn't spread to all the people... And they admire of Government of the United States so much that they would like to buy it.” Harry S. Truman

            by fenway49 on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 01:14:48 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  Recc's for facts. All politics is local. (0+ / 0-)

          Fenway49, I assume you are local.

          "You don't have to be smart to laugh at fart jokes, but you have to be stupid not to." - Louis CK

          by New Jersey Boy on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 07:45:43 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  I'm trans (8+ / 0-)

    And I have a significant amount of Irish in me. Must be the French and German that gave me teh gay... And no, you're not crazy but bigotry always seems crazy to those of us who are not bigots..

    "Given the choice between a Republican and someone who acts like a Republican, people will vote for a real Republican every time." Harry Truman

    by MargaretPOA on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 03:28:21 AM PST

  •  Yeah (14+ / 0-)

    The thing is, she has the analogy exactly backwards.  It's not like asking a black pride parade to include the KKK, it's like asking a KKK demonstration to include black people (or, for that matter, Irish Catholics).

    Her legal argument, honestly, isn't wrong.  The parade is a private event which registered to use a city-owned venue via a neutral process.   The parade is a big act of speech by the organizers, and the city can't really decide what speech it gives a permit to and what it doesn't based on the viewpoint of the speaker.  They can't charge differently either for police protection, or whatever else determines the permits.  

    This is generally the history of KKK demonstrations.  KKK marches are big freaking embarrassments to their host towns, who will regularly try to block them altogether or otherwise dilute their message.  Generally, these efforts fail because the Courts don't like governments preferring one viewpoint over another for ministerial acts like permitting parades.  

    So, Wendy Murphy should not have brought up the KKK.  Because there is a long history of communities objecting to the message of parades in their towns, and that history is dominated by concerted efforts to stop the Klan.  The Southie organizers (apparently led by someone named Wacko Hurley) are relying on decisional law which says that no matter how much we all dislike the KKK, the government can't treat them differently.

    So this whole mess ends up as a huge embarrassment for the Irish-American community these idiots don't represent, and the larger American Catholic community which overwhelmingly supports gay marriage.  

    The Mayor of Boston has refused to march in this parade for 20 years.  The Mayor of New York is out this year as well.  Sponsors keep distancing themselves.  The end is nigh here.  It's just a shame that the organizers won't see the light until there's nobody left to march with them.

  •  Are they saying (4+ / 0-)

    the gays will lynch the Irish? I have to admit, I'm not seeing it...

    "A lie is not the other side of a story; it's just a lie."

    by happy camper on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 06:02:59 AM PST

  •  "No true Irishman"? Egad. n/t (6+ / 0-)

    The word "parent" is supposed to be a VERB, people...

    by wesmorgan1 on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 06:13:12 AM PST

  •  Just a Bad Lawyer (6+ / 0-)

    She's a lawyer with bad logic and reasoning. The local news show is the one with the responsibility to say "but the KKK's mission is to destroy Blacks people, and Black people aren't in the KKK - LGBT people's mission isn't to destroy the Irish, and these are Irish LGBT".

    The lawyer should lose business now that she's advertised herself as a terrible lawyer. And the news show should lose listeners now that it's just an ad forum for bad lawyers and chatterers.

    But they won't. And the homophobic Boston "Irish" (Some Irish Need Not Apply) Parade marches on. But at least without the mayor.

    "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

    by DocGonzo on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 06:16:51 AM PST

    •  that's why I wish the regular host had been there (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Tonedevil, DocGonzo

      i like to think he might have pushed back on her a little harder.

      this part of your post needs to be emphasized.  I was too sleepy last night to put it that way and you have done it perfectly:

      the KKK's mission is to destroy Black people, and Black people are not in the KKK.

      LGBT people's mission is NOT to destroy the Irish, and there ARE Irish LGBT"

      the "they're destroying our way of life" argument is actually beginning to get on my nerves.  if you way of life is to deny the full inclusion and humanity of LGBTQ people then your way of life is about to collapse of its own weight

      Politics is like driving. To go backward put it in R. To go forward put it in D.
      DEMAND CREATES JOBS!!!
      Drop by The Grieving Room on Monday nights to talk about grief.

      by TrueBlueMajority on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 06:53:53 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Serious situation in NYC as well (5+ / 0-)

    Institutionalized discrimination is never pretty. As a lover of Ireland and as an Irish-American myself I have to say that the "official" East Coast Irish-American Community are some of the most backwards people I've ever met. They are usually easy to identify according to their complete disinterest in the actual traditions of Ireland, their incuriosity about Irish music and language, their leprous aversion to the current state of modern Ireland and of course their casual embrace of bigotry.

    One more year of blatant discrimination and hoary old admonitions about "sin" while people exploit the occasion to engage in public drunkenness, public urination and the puking up of green beer for roughly a nine-hour cycle. I love Ireland but I hate "St. Paddy's" Day.

    •  Ah, yes, the 70s Boston school bussing riots (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Tonedevil, TrueBlueMajority

      I remember them well - grew up in the Western part of the Commonwealth. My mother - 100% Irish-American - was mortified to see the descendants of those who faced the "Irish Need Not Apply" signs promoting such bigotry in their own right.

      I am lucky she taught my sister and I all about our Irish heritage and to appreciate that. Sure, we were embarrassed about the loud Irish music she would play when we cleaned the house (maybe it was to make us move faster?), and I hated being dragged to feiseanna to see my sister dance, but I appreciate all those lessons now, particularly when I am stuck in a place where St. Patrick's Day only means drinking and the endless playing of the Unicorn Song and the Wild Rover ("no, nay, never...").

      Personally, I am looking forward to heading back to Holyoke, MA this month to celebrate the holiday with my family. We will be attending the parade there (which is billed as second-largest behind New York's, take that Beantown) and will loudly cheer the openly gay mayor of Holyoke, as he walks down the street with his significant other (assuming they're still dating).

      Cruelty might be very human, and it might be very cultural, but it's not acceptable.- Jodie Foster

      by CPT Doom on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 10:24:46 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  the day I arrived in Boston in the Fall of 1974 (0+ / 0-)

        ther as a big anti-busing rally marching down Tremont Street as my mom and I were walking from the Park Street T to the Parker House hotel where she was staying.

        She saw the signs and was aghast.  She told me later she wanted to take me and get on a plane back to DC immediately.

        I barely noticed the marchers, except there were a few signs with unsavory language directed toward black people.  Not "family friendly" at all.

        It did not scare me enough to make me leave school, but the images stayed with my mom and she worried about me being in Boston from that day forward.

        You would think that No Irish Need Apply would make them sympathetic to others who were discriminated against.

        Politics is like driving. To go backward put it in R. To go forward put it in D.
        DEMAND CREATES JOBS!!!
        Drop by The Grieving Room on Monday nights to talk about grief.

        by TrueBlueMajority on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 02:09:40 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Right to Peaceably Assemble (3+ / 0-)

    Also at stake are the people's rights to peaceably assemble.

    Yes, it's a private parade, but that likewise applies to free speech. A parade is foremost an assembly, less so speech. Since they're sponsored by the city - closed streets, free security, branding association - denial of the only venue matters.

    "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

    by DocGonzo on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 06:20:47 AM PST

  •  What do they do to the Oscar Wilde fan club? (6+ / 0-)

    Or do historical gay Irish people who were persecuted for being gay not exist either?

    I ain't often right, but I've never been wrong. Seldom turns out the way it does in this song.

    by mungley on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 06:50:50 AM PST

  •  Veterans For Peace are barred also (10+ / 0-)

    The Boston chapter has organized an alternative parade, The Saint Patrick’s Peace Parade

    BACKGROUND Why are there two parades in South Boston on Saint Patrick’s Day? For the past four years Veterans For Peace have been denied to walk in the historic Saint Patrick’s Parade in South Boston. This is the largest parade of its kind in the country with over 700,000 people viewing the parade. The parade has a dual purpose; the celebration of Saint Patrick and the Irish traditions and heritage and a celebration of Evacuation Day, the day the British were run out of Boston. Both days fall on March 17th, so the City of Boston thought it a good idea to have the Allied War Veterans Council (AWVC) organize the parade. The problem is that one side of the equation, St. Patrick, a man of peace, is second fiddle to a military parade. AWVC has the exclusive say in who gets to walk in this historical parade. The City of Boston, South Boston Community Groups, the Boston Police have absolutely no say in who walks the streets of South Boston in the Saint Patrick’s Day Parade. In 2011 Veterans For Peace’s application was denied, when asked why and were told, “They did not want to have the word Peace associated with the word Veteran”. Well they did not know the Smedleys very well. We pulled our own permit and with only three weeks to go before the parade pulled together 500 people and the Saint Patrick’s Peace Parade, the Alternative People’s Parade for Peace, Equality, Jobs, Environmental Stewardship, Economic and Social Justice was born. Twenty years ago the LGBT community wanted to walk in the parade and were denied which resulted in a lawsuit that went all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court resulting in the Hurley Decision. The Smedleys immediately reached out to the LGBT community, inviting them to “walk in our parade” In 2013 we had close to 2,000 people, seven divisions (Veterans, Peace, LGBT, Labor, Political, Religious, Occupy Everywhere) two bands, bag pipers, drummers, a Duck Boat, two trollies etc. It was a grand success. We have an Environmental Stewardship Division this year. Our goal is to end this last vestige of institutionalized exclusion, prejudice, bigotry, and homophobia and make this parade inclusive and welcoming to all and bring the message of peace to South Boston on Saint Patrick’s Day. Please join us in South Boston on March 16. Be sure to bring your Chapter’s or Organization’s banners, signs and costumes and join us in our fabulous Fourth Annual Saint Patrick’s Peace Parade.

    On behalf of the Saint Patrick’s Peace Parade Organizing Committee. Thank you, Pat Scanlon (VN '69) Coordinator, VFP Chapter 9, Smedley Butler Brigade

    "If you pour some music on whatever's wrong, it'll sure help out." Levon Helm

    by BOHICA on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 06:51:18 AM PST

    •  thanks BOHICA (5+ / 0-)

      the alternative parade is a glorious celebration

      "separate but equal" is a hard pill to swallow, but in some ways and in some minds the peace parade is the REAL parade!

      Politics is like driving. To go backward put it in R. To go forward put it in D.
      DEMAND CREATES JOBS!!!
      Drop by The Grieving Room on Monday nights to talk about grief.

      by TrueBlueMajority on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 07:32:00 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Moren info on the alternative parade: (7+ / 0-)
      Boston, Mass. – March 3, 2014 – Carlos Arredondo and his wife Melida will be the Grand Marshalls for the Saint Patrick Peace Parade, the alternative parade, in South Boston on Sunday, March 16. Carlos is well known as one of the heroes of the Boston Marathon bombing. He was captured in a now famous AP photo wearing his white cowboy hat as he rushed bombing victim Jeff Bauman to a waiting ambulance.  Carlos and Melida have been long time members of Veterans For Peace, having joined the organization shortly after Carlos’ son Alex was killed in Najaf Iraq by a sniper in 2004. Their only other son Brian, who never recovered from the loss of his beloved big brother, committed suicide in 2011 at age 24. Carlos and Melida have committed themselves to helping veterans families and working for peace as members of the Boston chapter of Veterans For Peace.
       
      Participants in the alternative parade are welcome to call themselves "gay" openly:
      Some have called the Saint Patrick’s Peace Parade a protest parade,” said Pat Scanlon, Coordinator of Veterans For Peace and the lead organizer for the Peace Parade. “It is not! It is an alternative parade brought about because of the discriminatory and exclusionary practices of the organizers of the first parade.” Some people refer to the second parade as the gay parade. Scanlon emphasizes, “It is a Peace Parade, in fact the only Peace Parade in the entire country. Our parade is welcoming and inclusive. The LGBT community is free to celebrate who they are as people and as gay members of our community. There is an LGBT Division where all are welcome to carry rainbow flags, signs, and banners and wear T-shirts with such messages as “I’m Irish, Gay and Proud”.

      "If you love your Uncle Sam bring them home, bring them home." - Pete Seeger.

      by brae70 on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 08:02:43 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Just read this quickly ... (4+ / 0-)

    but it seems equally insulting to folks of Irish heritage. We aren't all bigots and, as for the diehard Catholics, the Pope is trying hard to tone down all the judgementalism.

  •  Has anybody ever read Joyce's "Ulysses"? (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    CuriousBoston, sfbob, Tonedevil

    Many English professors consider it the greatest novel ever written though it's mostly unreradable and also the greatest Irish cultural achievement ever, and it's got a lot of heterosexual sex in it - Joyce was a voluptuary who adored women's bodies with paraphilias toward certain smells and other physical aspects of them and aparently an adriot cunning linguist - but there's also a lelluva lot of homophilia and gay undertones throughout the thing, too.  Not as many as Melville's "Billy Budd," but almost.  

    What I remember most about it was one exchange between one of the Irishmen and Leopold Bloom, the Jew who's like the third most important character.

    The guy says, "You know, Ireland alone among all European countries never persecuted the Jews."

    So Bloom is like, "What?"

    "That's right," he says, "because we never let them in."

    Having reacted to "Ulysses" with Dorothy Parker's maxim ("This novel should not be laid aside.  It should be thrown with great force.") I considered other earmarks of Irish culture (hey, I'm 1/8 Irish, descended from the Dunns of San Patricio County - what's that county's name mean in English? - in Texas, one of which was a Senator during the Republic) and thought of the John Wayne movie "The Quiet Man" (Wayne's best, IMHO).  Like Ulysses, it's about heterosexuality - the maddening chaste courtship of Wayne and Maureen O'Hara under the chaperoning of Barry O'Sullivan oozes with suppressed eroticism - but there's a helluva lotta homoerotic undertones too.  Wayne's mudfight with Victor McLaughin is like rough trade gay porn with clothes on.  

    So I guess the objection is not so much gays per se as acknowledging they exist or something.  

    I guess those who think there are no gay Irish and they never persecuted the Jews and women who flirt are sluts also believe there are no pedophile priests or alcoholic bishops.

    The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -- John Kenneth Galbraith

    by Kangaroo on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 07:26:50 AM PST

  •  asdf (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    koosah, TrueBlueMajority

    Sure once I was young and impulsive, I wore every conceivable pin. Even went to socialist meetings, learned all the old union hymns. Ah, but I've grown older and wiser. And that's why I'm turning you in. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u52Oz-54VYw

    by SouthernLiberalinMD on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 07:39:49 AM PST

  •  this is neither ethnic nor religious (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    brae70, TrueBlueMajority

    this is all political.

    Im half Irish. My Irish half goes back to brooklyn circa 1840. Getting hung up on the irish-ness or the catholic-ness of this discrimination is somewhat pointless. For every "Bill O"reily like" irish-american you can produce, I can produce a progressive democrat.

    parades are political statements and the people involved in presenting them in Boston and NYC are deeply politically connected. and barring the LGBT community from the parades has nothing to do with an Irish ethnicity or catholicism.....those things are merely used as an excuse and rationalization. and they distract us from the real abuses of local political power.

    the KKK analogy is obscene. More disturbing if you ask yourself "how many irish americans were in the KKK?" Obviously not the catholics...but they arent the only Irish Americans.

    I cant tell if its a West End musical or Marxism in action.

    by Evolution on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 07:45:28 AM PST

  •  Because LGBT people have tried so hard (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TrueBlueMajority, CuriousBoston

    to kill Southies and bully them out of voting. They cross-dress and ride on big motorcycles throughout Boston, burning gigantic Lambda signs on the lawns of working-class Irish Catholics. I hear that while they're doing this, they sometimes yell "The British are coming, if you know what I mean," and laugh hysterically.

    Please, please, guys, pull your heads out of your asses. (Guys being the Boston Irish, not the LGBT folks).

    I so often end up in this position with working-class Irish Americans. Love them to death--salt of the earth folks who know how to party, what's not to love? And then something like this comes up, and it's like they're all "Argle Bargle! Argle Bargle Chuch Bargle Argle Holy Father Barglaroo!" It can be an Argle of misogyny, a Bargle of racism, or a Barglaroo of homophobia, but it's always some dumbass thing like this.

    Sure once I was young and impulsive, I wore every conceivable pin. Even went to socialist meetings, learned all the old union hymns. Ah, but I've grown older and wiser. And that's why I'm turning you in. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u52Oz-54VYw

    by SouthernLiberalinMD on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 07:48:34 AM PST

    •  Formal protest (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      TrueBlueMajority

      hereby registered of blanket characterizations of "Boston Irish" and "working-class Irish Americans."

      “Republicans...think American standard of living is a fine thing--so long as it doesn't spread to all the people... And they admire of Government of the United States so much that they would like to buy it.” Harry S. Truman

      by fenway49 on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 08:47:30 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  OK. Point taken. Can I rephrase my comment (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        fenway49, TrueBlueMajority

        to "working-class Irish/Boston Irish with sexist, racist, and/or homophobic views" and let the revised point stand?

        Sure once I was young and impulsive, I wore every conceivable pin. Even went to socialist meetings, learned all the old union hymns. Ah, but I've grown older and wiser. And that's why I'm turning you in. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u52Oz-54VYw

        by SouthernLiberalinMD on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 09:05:07 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Sure! (3+ / 0-)

          Let's paint the areas deserving of paint and leave the broad brush alone.

          This just reminded me of the recent "Dems courting white me" thread, and the people saying anything we could do to win more votes from white men would be a betrayal of other groups. And that's just not true. Yeah, there are white guys ("working-class Irish/Boston Irish") with "sexist, racist, and/or homophobic views," but describing the whole group that way insults those who are nothing like that and ultimately is counterproductive.

          “Republicans...think American standard of living is a fine thing--so long as it doesn't spread to all the people... And they admire of Government of the United States so much that they would like to buy it.” Harry S. Truman

          by fenway49 on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 09:15:56 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Just to clarify (2+ / 0-)

            that's supposed to read "Dems courting white MEN," not Dems courting little old "white me." I don't have an ego to that point!

            “Republicans...think American standard of living is a fine thing--so long as it doesn't spread to all the people... And they admire of Government of the United States so much that they would like to buy it.” Harry S. Truman

            by fenway49 on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 09:21:57 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Dems courting white me! Hilarious typo (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              fenway49, TrueBlueMajority

              I wish they'd court white me. Fat chance, huh?

              Sorry btw, I didn't mean to be insulting.

              Sure once I was young and impulsive, I wore every conceivable pin. Even went to socialist meetings, learned all the old union hymns. Ah, but I've grown older and wiser. And that's why I'm turning you in. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u52Oz-54VYw

              by SouthernLiberalinMD on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 09:26:46 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I know you didn't (2+ / 0-)

                We just have to be careful with our shorthand. Being on the "wrong side" of the characterization on issues like this stupid parade has definitely helped me be more cautious.

                I used to wish they'd court white me! But I was elected a delegate to our state Democratic convention. With fifteen candidates seeking four open offices (Gov, LG, AG, Treas.) my phone now rings off the hook. Now I'm saying, "Leave me alone!."

                “Republicans...think American standard of living is a fine thing--so long as it doesn't spread to all the people... And they admire of Government of the United States so much that they would like to buy it.” Harry S. Truman

                by fenway49 on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 09:32:28 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

  •  Or... (3+ / 0-)

    It could be like having the KKK March in an Irish Parade...

    After all, the KKK wasn't (and isn't) too keen on the Irish and Catholics either.

  •  Ha (4+ / 0-)
    Lots of people with no Irish heritage are wearing green and eating green bagels and drinking green beer and wearing green carnations.
    I would maybe amend to
    no Irish heritage that they know of
    Because, with some exceptions of course, most of us can't know our total geneaologies back to 1600 (or before)...and Irish heritage was often downplayed or hidden here in the U.S., as if it was a shameful thing, right into the 20th Century. To my surprise, even my parents turned out to have this attitude and were not pleased when my amateur inquiries outed several Irish connections on both sides of our family. Including at least one Potato Famine refugee--oh, the horror.

    I, of course, was delighted.

    •  1600's Dundrum, near Cashel, Tipperary. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      TrueBlueMajority

      1/4 Irish.

      Help Senator Warren. Encourage people to co-sponsor her bills, & the bills she has cosponsored. Elect Ed Markey.

      by CuriousBoston on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 08:45:37 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I am guessing (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      TrueBlueMajority, orestes1963
      Irish heritage was often downplayed or hidden here in the U.S., as if it was a shameful thing, right into the 20th Century. To my surprise, even my parents turned out to have this attitude and were not pleased when my amateur inquiries outed several Irish connections on both sides of our family.
      your parents are Protestant. Where I come from there was sure as hell no effort to "pass."

      “Republicans...think American standard of living is a fine thing--so long as it doesn't spread to all the people... And they admire of Government of the United States so much that they would like to buy it.” Harry S. Truman

      by fenway49 on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 08:49:08 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Our parents (0+ / 0-)

        were non-religious And so were two out of four grandparents.

        A third grandparent was an Episcopalian-convert, offspring of a Catholic mother and non-religious father. The fourth was a Christian Scientist.

        In our family's case it was largely about status in the Northeast and Midwest upper middle/professional classes (or aspiring thereto), originally during the 1800s and carried down as a mindless prejudice, I am sorry to report. Needless to say, I myself have a completely different view of our Irish heritage.

  •  FYI, Suffolk County in MA declared this an (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TrueBlueMajority

    official holiday, no work. Legally: Evacuation Day, when the Brits were chased out of town. More commonly, a license to drink, drive and vandalize.  I don't like to generalize; it is fair to say the college students in Suffolk count take advantage of the day.Even when the parade does not occur on the legal holiday.

    Help Senator Warren. Encourage people to co-sponsor her bills, & the bills she has cosponsored. Elect Ed Markey.

    by CuriousBoston on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 08:24:02 AM PST

  •  Love this diary! (5+ / 0-)

    My mentoring human geography professor was born in Belfast and studied cultural wars ( a real HG term predating the GOP's use of it) being fought over St Patrick Day parades in the US on the participation of LGBT groups.

    It really gets to the heart of the question of whether certain groups are visible or invisible in our culture. Being seen in public space is a way of claiming visibility and standing in the culture. Those who block these groups wish them to remain invisible which is a violation of their civil rights.

    The recent tipping point we have reached in the legal and societal acceptance of gay marriage has been brought about by exposure. Americans have lost their fear of the unknown through familiarity of this group and their civil rights.

    Parades turn out to be a very good strategy to change societal norms.
     

    We have it within our power to make the world over again ~ Thomas Paine

    by occupystephanie on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 08:32:10 AM PST

  •  Quiz - 2 paragraph essay due in 10 minutes: (3+ / 0-)

    Who was Oscar Fingal O'Flahertie Wills Wilde?

    That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

    by enhydra lutris on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 08:36:08 AM PST

  •  My two cents (6+ / 0-)

    I wrote about my own feelings on the Southie parade last year. I won't be anywhere near it as long as they discriminate.

    But I don't think we should take the analogy too far. Like me, Wendy Murphy is a lawyer. Judges during court arguments, or law professors, or lawyers talking about these issues on the news, always use these sorts of analogies to argue legal points. If you do "A," logically you'd also have to do "B," and "B" is awful.

    The clumsy analogy being made is that these bigoted organizers, Wacko Hurley and crew, have the same legal right to keep out of their parade groups that would conflict with their "message" as a black group has to keep the KKK out of their parade. She's just talking about a First Amendment right to exclude. It does not follow that LGBT groups are the same as, or as bad as, or as much of a threat to, the Southie organizers as the KKK would be to African-Americans. She explained it very poorly, and I think she was flustered.

    But from a legal standpoint, she is completely correct that the organizers have a First Amendment right to control their "message." The Supreme Court ruled 9-0 in their favor on this issue. The Supreme Court also ruled that neo-Nazis had a First Amendment right to parade in predominantly Jewish Skokie, Ill.

    The problem is that Southie parade defenders always act like that ends it. My counter-argument has always been that having a legal right to be a dick doesn't mean you have to be one, or should be one.

    In the real world, all of you are right to point out the many LGBT people of Irish descent. And the people of Irish descent, like me, who stand with them. And the vets of Irish descent, like my Dad, who served in Vietnam but opposed the war in Iraq. Because combat vets of Irish ancestry from Southie who opposed the Iraq War were not welcome in the Southie parade. Scott Brown was. So fuck the Southie parade.

    In the real world, their "message" is a muddled joke. They have storm troopers and Ghostbusters and dancing Chinese dragons and car dealership floats. They don't give a shit what you "say" by marching, as long as you don't say "gay pride" or "we shouldn't be in Iraq."

    In the real world, the "glorious tradition" of the parade they invoked recently is crew-cut young men drinking excessively, pissing off the roofs of three-deckers, and hitting the streets looking for fights.

    In the read world, Ireland itself has moved beyond this crap. So have Chicago, San Francisco, and Woodside, Queens. Go to the alternative parade, go to Holyoke. Don't waste your time with these assholes.

    “Republicans...think American standard of living is a fine thing--so long as it doesn't spread to all the people... And they admire of Government of the United States so much that they would like to buy it.” Harry S. Truman

    by fenway49 on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 08:37:07 AM PST

    •  Since the group in question is also Irish (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      fenway49, TrueBlueMajority

      Murphy's analogy would only make sense on the assumption that there were A-A members of the Klan seeking to march in a parade for racial equality.

      •  That's an added wrinkle (4+ / 0-)

        that I don't think she even considered in spouting her analogy. There are a million things wrong with the analogy she used, but for First Amendment purposes they don't matter much. I think she was offering standard lawyer-speak for, "Look, if you want groups promoting inclusion and equality to have the right to keep bigoted assholes out their parades, under the First Amendment you have to accept bigoted assholes having the right to keep groups promoting inclusion and equality out of THEIR parades."

        FWIW, Wendy Murphy is a noted attention-monger with a history of shooting off her mouth and getting into trouble. Most lawyers go about their lives somewhat quietly, but she's in front of every microphone or camera she can find. She's done some good work but screwed up at times also.

        One other thing: this year I'm not sure your point is right. In the past it was specifically Irish groups seeking to march. This year MassEquality, which is not an Irish gay group but a general LGBT rights group, was the entity seeking to participate. Some of the people involved with MassEquality surely are Irish, but they're not applying as an Irish group.

        And the parade guys would argue it's not just an "Irish" parade, but a parade with a "Irish, Catholic, devoted to traditional values like homophobia and war" message. They kept out Irish vets for peace too, including one who was Wacko Hurley's best man once upon a time.

        “Republicans...think American standard of living is a fine thing--so long as it doesn't spread to all the people... And they admire of Government of the United States so much that they would like to buy it.” Harry S. Truman

        by fenway49 on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 11:26:36 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Gay people banned from (0+ / 0-)

    one of the gayest events ever conceived:  a parade.

    To use the Klan analogy, this would be like excluding skinheads from a Klan march.  

    "When I was an alien, cultures weren't opinions" ~ Kurt Cobain, Territorial Pissings

    by Subterranean on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 08:37:25 AM PST

  •  Homophobia and transphobia are irrational (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    OllieGarkey, TrueBlueMajority

    If psychiatrist had any integrity, they would both be "mental illnesses" along with other victimizing forms of hate.

    But psychiatrists enable and protect victimizing forms of hate: until 1973, homosexuals were officially "mentally ill" and today transsexuals are still officially "mentally ill" -- especially transsexual children, who are still subjected to conversion therapy by leading lights of shrinkdom.

    American Presidents: 43 men, 0 women. Ready for Hillary

    by atana on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 09:51:19 AM PST

  •  Sorry, Boston, but we Gaels are the queerest (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TrueBlueMajority

    people in Europe.

    That's  Cúchulainn carrying his lover, Ferdiad, after  Cúchulainn defeated him in battle.

    The ancient Cattle Raid of Cooley is pretty clear on the fact that they're lovers This is what Cúchulainn sings over Ferdiad's corpse:

    "When we over yonder dwelt
    with our Scathach, steadfast, true,
    This we thought till the end of time,
    That our friendship ne'er would end!

    Dear to my thy noble blush;
    Dear thy comeply, perfect form;
    Dear thine eye, blue-grey and clear;
    Dear thy wisdom and thy speech!

    "Never strode to rending fight,
    never wrath and manhood held,
    nor slung shield across broad back,
    One like thee, Daman's red son!

    Never have I met till now,
    since I Oenfer Aife slew,
    One thy peer in deeds of arms,
    Never have I found, Ferdiad!

    Finnabair, Medb's daughter fair,
    Beauteous, lovely though she be,
    as a gad round sand or stones,
    She was shown to thee, Ferdiad!

    TL;DR: You were supposed to be my friend forever, your the prettiest man I know, you're the wisest man I know, you're the bravest fighter I know, and you're way more good looking than the most beautiful woman alive.

    If I were in New York or Boston, I would be making SO MUCH trouble over this.

    I'd get some people together and join the parade with a big banner in Irish that said:

    Táimid Gaeil. Táimid LADT.
    Mar sin, bhí Naomh Pádraig.

    "We're Gaels. We're LGBT.
    So was St Patrick."

    Supposedly, that's written in this book I'm trying to get my hands on.

    And he was! He had a gay companion that he would travel with and sleep with. So did a lot of the old Irish Monks. We know that all of the old Irish Heroes were at least Bisexual and that Bisexuality was the default in prechristian Gaelic society.

    BAH.

    So much trouble could be made over this and I'M NOT THERE TO HELP MAKE IT!!!! I'm climbing the damned walls down here in DC.

    An Fhirinn an aghaidh an t'Saoghail. (The truth against the world.) Is treasa tuath na tighearna. (The common people are mightier than the lords.)

    by OllieGarkey on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 09:57:12 AM PST

  •  "And the parade organizers have a (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TrueBlueMajority, commonmass

    "right to portray a message under the first amendment"?

    Um, not exactly.  They have a right to peaceably assemble, they have a right to say what they want, but they have no right to a specific message under the US Constitution.

  •  First of all, a green carnation is what Oscar (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TrueBlueMajority

    Wilde and his followers wore to identify them as "gay". Wilde, himself was Irish. How funny.

    I am partly Irish, and gay, and an ex-Catholic turned Anglo-
    Catholic.

    That being said, I prefer other parades in Boston, like the Gay Pride Parade where I have marched on multiple occasions with large groups of Christians and other religious folks including with the Right Reverends Shaw, Harris, Harris and Cederholm of the Episcopal Diocese of Massachusetts.

    I like parades where everyone is welcome, not ones that discriminate.

    In short, screw the Boston St. Patty's Day Parade.

    Pope Francis: the Thumb of Christ in the eyes of the Pharisees.

    by commonmass on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 02:47:24 PM PST

  •  My fellow Irishmen prefer drink over sex. (0+ / 0-)

    Always have.

    Don't confuse a good reason to party with the loins you prefer.

  •  St. Patrick Is A Myth (0+ / 0-)

    So are leprechauns and all manner of other wee people, not to mention the Biggest of All.

    My father was an Irishman, like from Ireland.  He was proud to become an American.  He was also proud of being Irish and once was chosen to lead a St. Patrick's Day parade - not the make believe parade in New York City but one with actual Irish people.

    His name - would you like to make a quick guess? - was Patrick.

    He did have a very deep bias I must admit.  He didn't think much of Americans pretending to be Irish.

    I don't either.

    I would be proud to march in your parade but my marching days are long over and I don't belong much of anywhere because I am a self-confessed liberal and everybody hates us today and pretend to be progressives.

    Best,  Terry

  •  Isn't it amazing that a group like the descendants (0+ / 0-)

    of Irish Catholics who escaped religious prejudice and oppression came to America for religious freedom are now being repressive and prejudice based on "their" religion.

    The hypocrisy rises in the air and stink like a fresh cow paddy  on a cold winter day.

    In any case, I guarantee there will be gays in the parade, they just blend in so well.  And those plaid skirts.  Too gorgeous not to wear. And dancing too.  (Snark)

    The KKK would be more equal to the Irish Protestants oppression and violence.  Not to Irish Catholic homosexuals.

    But since the Irish Protestant's oppression is basically not existent in this country and the KKK was an still is, and murdering Blacks and homosexuals still is, and bigotry agains both still is.....

    Ms. Murphy, she's a no brainer.

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