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Originally posted to Comics on Mon Apr 07, 2014 at 06:50 AM PDT.

Also republished by Climate Change SOS and Daily Kos.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Using the words and terms of more honest brokers (14+ / 0-)

    to confuse enough people in the population that there's always a debate on {reality} vs. {excuses for personal greed by the wealthiest}.

    Funny and biting, but highly frightening: your humor here actually matches the tone of reality, I feel.

    "So, please stay where you are. Don't move and don't panic. Don't take off your shoes! Jobs is on the way."

    by wader on Mon Apr 07, 2014 at 07:06:02 AM PDT

    •  I blame the press for feeding the anti-science (11+ / 0-)

      beast. If the press had failed to do that, the kochtapus would have been throwing their money down CT holes online and nothing more.

      "It were a thousand times better for the land if all Witches, but especially the blessing Witch, might suffer death." qtd by Ehrenreich & English. For Her Own Good, Two Centuries of Expert's Advice to Women pp 40

      by GreenMother on Mon Apr 07, 2014 at 07:24:45 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  and our education system, for failing to teach (5+ / 0-)

        Most people have NO understanding of basic science, and NO critical thinking skills. Most people simply believe whatever they already want to believe for ideological reasons, which is why anti-science runs rampant on both ends of the political spectrum. As a culture, we have no functional bullshit detectors, which gives us zero ability to distinguish fact from fiction. And that is why we fall for all sorts of idiotic things that shouldn't fool a third-grader.

        In the end, reality always wins.

        by Lenny Flank on Mon Apr 07, 2014 at 07:41:50 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Lenny they don't teach a lot of things in schools (8+ / 0-)

          now. Civics and AM govt seems to have gone the way of the Dodo as well.

          "It were a thousand times better for the land if all Witches, but especially the blessing Witch, might suffer death." qtd by Ehrenreich & English. For Her Own Good, Two Centuries of Expert's Advice to Women pp 40

          by GreenMother on Mon Apr 07, 2014 at 07:57:48 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  and History classes always seem to stop with (5+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            QuiteDragon, kbrown2225, chimene, 2dot, crhyne

            the First World War.

            Americans are basically a nation of uneducated simpletons, with no understanding whatever of the world around them. We should not be trusted with a dull spoon, much less with the largest nuclear arsenal on the planet.

            In the end, reality always wins.

            by Lenny Flank on Mon Apr 07, 2014 at 08:04:16 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  everyone does what they can (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              occupystephanie, wader, JerryNA, alabamajp

              When we create a living wage to go with affordable health care, a lot of parents will have more time to do the following:
              help their children study
              and
              lodge complaints about gaps in school curriculum

              People who work all the time for min wage or less, who work 2 or more jobs aren't going to have the time, energy or resources to fix this, much less just spend quality time with their kids. That affects a lot of things, including conventional education.

              "It were a thousand times better for the land if all Witches, but especially the blessing Witch, might suffer death." qtd by Ehrenreich & English. For Her Own Good, Two Centuries of Expert's Advice to Women pp 40

              by GreenMother on Mon Apr 07, 2014 at 08:09:33 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Go to Stanford and try to convince them of that .. (0+ / 0-)

              There are a lot of dumb/ignorant Americans ... just like there are a lot of dumb/ignorant Russians, Chinese, Brasillians, Germans, Kenyans.

              But there are a lot of educated & intelligent Americans ... just like other countries have their educated & intelligent people.  

              The people may be smart - but somehow the Nation is stupid... willfully stupid, in fact.  So your last point is valid - our NATION should not be trusted with a dull spoon let alone nuclear weapons

              -- illegitimi non carborundum

              by BadBoyScientist on Mon Apr 07, 2014 at 03:46:09 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  There is active hostility to teaching science. (0+ / 0-)
        •  Public education systems we've experienced (0+ / 0-)

          since I was a kid were all good at teaching what we needed to know for later schoolwork and somewhat beyond.

          Some teachers pushed kids to think beyond the textbooks, some didn't.  All kids were challenged to think for themselves, on top of the basics they obtained in Elementary and  Middle schools.

          Still, how our families supported our understanding of the larger world (and, how I attempt to do so with my kids) was not generally the purpose of basic education, IMHO.

          And, that's the issue: regardless of what school teaches you, your local culture is generally your stating point.  We can expect school to enable students for critical thinking, but parents of various stripes will enforce what they want.  Should the school teach local values beyond respect for each other, recognizing hierarchies of authority, etc?  That's a grey area, to me.

          "So, please stay where you are. Don't move and don't panic. Don't take off your shoes! Jobs is on the way."

          by wader on Mon Apr 07, 2014 at 09:48:24 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  I disagree (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          cjtjc

          Most students I encounter as a science educator know basic critical thinking - they can do it successfully provided they have the background knowledge and they care.    In fact, I prefer calling this "evidence-based reasoning" because that is a more descriptive term.  

          There are very few people who do not know how to draw a conclusion based on evidence ...  but the most gifted scientist cannot diagnose a car's malfunction if s/he is utterly unfamiliar with cars.  Knowing logic is necessary but waaaay insufficient to determine why the car won't start.  

          When it comes to climate change, there aren't that many familiar enough with the science to make valid conclusions - that is why I laugh at folks who say "Teach the controversy about evolution in school - let the students decide."   - You might as well get your medical advice from patients in the waiting room.

          Oh ... also, don't underestimate the power of lies.   If a mechanic is trying to diagnose a car but the OBDII reader is giving false codes - s/he isn't going to have much luck coming to the correct conclusion.

          The saving grace as far as climate change research is other nations can still conduct untainted research and concerned Americans can read their findings.  BUT AS FAR AS SCIENCE IN AMERICA THIS SPELLS DOOM.

          America is not just falling behind much of the world when it comes to science - we're running backwards.  Everyone, keep a journal and take lotsa of pictures so you can show your grand kids what America was like before turning into a 3rd world nation.

          -- illegitimi non carborundum

          by BadBoyScientist on Mon Apr 07, 2014 at 03:43:08 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Parents and religious leaders actively encourage (0+ / 0-)

            students to abuse teachers who believe in evolution.  This harassment has extended to global warming and the thinning of the ozone layers over the poles.  Spreading accurate information about radiocarbon dating is also perceived to be sinful in some circles.  There are even a few individuals who insist that dinosaurs did not exist.

        •  and our education system, for failing to teach - (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          laurak, cjtjc

          No, our education system is prevented from teaching by the wealthy who've convinced everyone that testing, testing, testing is the only way to know if the kids have learned anything. Well, they've learned only one thing, how to take a test. All teachers are allowed to teach anymore, is whatever test their state insists on torturing their kids with. And who benefits? Not the kids. Not the teachers. Not the school districts. The massive corporations who spend all their time generating new tests every five years (Because the old test can't be accurate! Too many kids are passing it!) that ALL the school districts are forced to spend billions of dollars on and all the attendant 'training' sessions for the teachers, administrators and kids dig huge chunks out of the few tax dollars Republican cuts have left.
          Charter schools aren't held to the same standards and guess what? Their kids are at an even greater disadvantage than public school kids. They don't learn science, only creationist fantasies, and score even lower when tested. The low wages of Charter schools certainly aren't attracting the best and brightest teachers and the constant stress of endless paperwork and testing in public schools drives out good educators from their ranks.
          Politics needs to get out of education, they don't know a damn thing about teaching, restore funding, eliminate 'vouchers' which is nothing more than a boondoggle to get the rest of us to pay for part of the cost so some rich guys' kid going to a ritzy private school (No, you won't find any poor kids attending that school. Public school vouchers won't cover that!)

      •  I blame the press for feeding the anti-science - (0+ / 0-)

        Well, darling, the fact that nearly ALL of our news agencies: Print, radio & TV, are owned by a handful of the wealthiest, is it so surprising that little real news or news reporting goes on in this country? I subscribe to New Scientist from England to find out what's really happening in science (and news). Until we have a truly 'Free Press' again, free from the greedmeisters who dictate what can be printed, you'll not see any real or accurate news again. Our Founding Fathers would be ashamed of this country's current enslavement to the wealthy and the destruction of reporting that has occured. Ben Franklin and the rest are no doubt spinning in their graves.

    •  Liars hiding behind the truth is an old story: (0+ / 0-)

      Look how big church christians do the devil's work while hiding behind Christ.

    •  The basic idea of science is that your beliefs (0+ / 0-)

      should fit with reality.  Your ideas should be tested against reality.  To be technical, your new idea is a hypothesis that is only useful if it makes a unique testable prediction. IF the prediction is verified, this supports your idea.  
      This kind of thinking works in the rest of life as well.
      It should not be hard for most people to understand this.  

  •  We need a death spiral scientist (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    dewtx, GreenMother, chimene

    to explain how the predicted ObamaCare extinction event just evaporated.

    If cats could blog, they wouldn't

    by crystal eyes on Mon Apr 07, 2014 at 07:06:26 AM PDT

  •  sadly, though, our side is no more immune to (12+ / 0-)

    anti-science nuttery than the rightwingers are. Just in the past few weeks here at DKos we've had the anti-vax nutters infesting Darksyde's Saturday science diaries, two diaries appearing in the Rescued list that spout factually-incorrect anti-science on GMOs, and comments in some of the Fukushima diaries that demonstrate a lack of basic knowledge about biology and physics.

    The only good part is that while the rightwing anti-science kooks get to set national policy, the anti-science kooks on our side just get laughed at.

    In the end, reality always wins.

    by Lenny Flank on Mon Apr 07, 2014 at 07:08:45 AM PDT

    •  There ya go again Lenny. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      occupystephanie

      Complaining that anyone who disagrees with your conclusions must be against all science everywhere--

      "It were a thousand times better for the land if all Witches, but especially the blessing Witch, might suffer death." qtd by Ehrenreich & English. For Her Own Good, Two Centuries of Expert's Advice to Women pp 40

      by GreenMother on Mon Apr 07, 2014 at 07:23:08 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  and there you go again (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        David Michigan, mjshep

        confirming my point.

        In the end, reality always wins.

        by Lenny Flank on Mon Apr 07, 2014 at 07:24:08 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  ps--they are not "my" conclusions, any more than (7+ / 0-)

        evolution or global warming or a round earth that orbits the sun are "my" conclusions.

        Science is not a democracy. In science, all opinions are NOT equally valid or worthy of respect and consideration. In science, reality is what it is--and any conclusion other than reality is WRONG. Period. End of debate.

        Sorry if you don't like that.  (shrug)

        In the end, reality always wins.

        by Lenny Flank on Mon Apr 07, 2014 at 07:26:30 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Well said, Sir! n/t (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Caittus

          "May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house." - George Carlin

          by Most Awesome Nana on Mon Apr 07, 2014 at 08:46:08 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  rec'd for (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          2dot
          Science is not a democracy.
           I'm making a bumper sticker!

          "It ain't right, Atticus," said Jem. "No, son, it ain't right." --Harper Lee, To Kill a Mockingbird

          by SottoVoce on Mon Apr 07, 2014 at 09:24:23 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Question, sir. (0+ / 0-)

          What makes your reality MY reality?  Might want to think on that a bit, as the NON-global warming event is just as real to some as global warming is to others.  That there is climate change going on, I have no doubt, but there are still wholloping huge holes in who or what is causing all of it.  Is the sun getting warmer?  Are we simply following a curve that Ma nature loves to toss us periodically?  For every legitimate argument put forward by one side, there are equally legitimate positions brought forward by the other.

          •  science has a way to test reality. (0+ / 0-)

            It is called, conveniently enough, "the scientific method".

            If you think all opinions about science are equally valid, then I invite you to let me drive you to the nearest bridge so you can declare that your "reality" of gravity is no less valid than science's -- and then prove it for us all by stepping off.

            Any time you're ready . . . . .

            In the end, reality always wins.

            by Lenny Flank on Mon Apr 07, 2014 at 05:40:28 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  ps--why does it not surprise me at all that (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            allie4fairness

            someone who can't judge "reality", is a climate denier.

            (sigh)

            In the end, reality always wins.

            by Lenny Flank on Mon Apr 07, 2014 at 05:43:03 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  No, there are NOT equally legitimate positions (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            aratinga, allie4fairness

            brought forward by the other.

            The global warming debate has seen 25 years of the denialists desperately searching for alternative explanations. Every time they come up with one -- invariably, based on nothing but speculation -- the climate scientists return to their desks and their computers, and add to their models whatever latest BS fact the denialists have cooked up, and then out come the results showing what all of the results have always shown: Pumping enormous amounts of CO2 into the atmosphere is changing the climate.

            There are two excellent websites devoted to the ongoing, endless refutation of whatever inane objection the denialists have lately come up with, or have simply re-spouted, despite its having been debunked a hundred or a thousand times.

            There are not huge wholloping (whatever that is) holes in the explanation. We know quite precisely what's happening. Period.

            To put the torture behind us is, inevitably, to put it in front of us.

            by UntimelyRippd on Mon Apr 07, 2014 at 06:59:31 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  If I drop a pencil out the window it will fall to (0+ / 0-)

            the ground.  People who deny this and prefer an alternate reality are not able to engage in scientific discussions.  

      •  I only ask that you both look for points you (4+ / 0-)

        can agree on. Offhand I agree with Lenny, an unpopular position around here. But being unpopular doesn't make us right. I have a hard time with "applied science" arguments because there's always some merit to the anti stances. Risks and benefits must be weighed, always. Facts should be, well, factual. Usually in debated commercially applied technologies facts are in dispute, worst case scenarios are presented and industry hides behind trade secrets or other legal mechanism to prevent further investigation. On the other hand, activists have been known to grab onto ANY bit of info, real or not, and run it up the flagpole if it helps the cause (which helps justify industries claims of persecution and feeds secrecy). We can only look to the sources of facts, repetition of experiments which prove or disprove a case, as well as the way industry may curb what we know.

        Sagan warned of this before he died. Lenny is right, we are not immune.

        Even if I knew that tomorrow the world would go to pieces, I would still plant my apple tree. -Martin Luther

        by the fan man on Mon Apr 07, 2014 at 08:07:38 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  When you have people who are kept ignorant (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          occupystephanie

          on purpose, deprived of a genuine education, forced to work for peanuts, and they know something is wrong, but lack the vocabulary to express that--Lenny and people like him jump in and shut them up (or try to)

          That's when Lenny does the job of people who keep those trade secrets to avoid further investigations.

          That's how one undermines the beginning of a movement, rather than simply, gently raising the bar. It's easier to insult people than it is to sympathize with them and inform them.

          At some point he will have to stop and decide--which movement do I want to grow faster? The antiscience crowd, because he ran off potential allies with his arrogance and condescension?

          Or do I want to help these people understand better, what it is they are up against?

          Just because these individuals do not understand every minute aspect of the Science they protest, doesn't mean that they have forfeited their right to protest industries that seek to take their rights and freedoms from them (in the name of corporate science) or (their own good) etc., and so on.

          "It were a thousand times better for the land if all Witches, but especially the blessing Witch, might suffer death." qtd by Ehrenreich & English. For Her Own Good, Two Centuries of Expert's Advice to Women pp 40

          by GreenMother on Mon Apr 07, 2014 at 08:18:13 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  this is silly (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Caittus, JerryNA
            At some point he will have to stop and decide--which movement do I want to grow faster? The antiscience crowd, because he ran off potential allies with his arrogance and condescension?
            I find the very IDEA that we have to tolerate or coddle people who lie, in order to "grow the movement faster", utterly ridiculous.  I am gobsmacked that anyone would even seriously make such an argument. Especially here in the "reality-based community".

            PS--reality IS arrogant and condescending. It is what it is, and it doesn't give a rat's ass about anyone's opinion. Wrong is wrong. Period. (shrug)

            In the end, reality always wins.

            by Lenny Flank on Mon Apr 07, 2014 at 08:30:49 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Silly? (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              crhyne, lotlizard, dewolf99

              You complain that people are not taught adequate comprehension of science in school.
              And now that they are adults, you are perfectly willing to throw them away like trash, for either a) disagreeing with you or b) growing up without scientific literacy.

              And the world is so unfair and mean to poor old Lenny--he doesn't want to understand or remedy these problems--he just wants everyone to crown him king of sciency stuff for all time amen.

              The world is not arrogant and condescending. Those are emotional charges that individuals like yourself put on their words to get a desired effect--in your case, the desire to feel superior and yet victimized simultaneously--hmmm reminds me of another bunch.

              The world is cut and dry. There is no emotional charge on it, but the ones we put on it. It is a collection of interconnected and self righting systems in which people figure hardly at all--without their technology.

              I like science, I appreciate it and most of the time I welcome it, but I have no desire to live under a oligarchy of scientific merchant princes or any other kind of merchant prince for that matter.

              I understand that that we need as many individuals (globally) on board to mitigate the effects of Climate Change. That won't happen via insults, and emotional bullying. It will require community building which once again will not happen with insults and emotional bullying.

              There is a spectrum of comprehension and a spectrum of belief, and these people fall all over that spectrum. The ones in the middle are the easiest ones to reach. But they are in the middle due to their shallow understanding. Now I could slap them with a dead fish and make fun of their mothers, or I could be patient with them and help them see what they need to, so they can change their own mind.

              Once enough minds are changed, momentum can become a social factor, that will help convince others who will never accept this stuff at face value to at least change their behavior if not their minds.

              That is the difference between you throwing rocks at the moon, and others building a coalition to bring about a larger paradigm shift.

              "It were a thousand times better for the land if all Witches, but especially the blessing Witch, might suffer death." qtd by Ehrenreich & English. For Her Own Good, Two Centuries of Expert's Advice to Women pp 40

              by GreenMother on Mon Apr 07, 2014 at 12:57:45 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  yes, silly /nt (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                aratinga

                In the end, reality always wins.

                by Lenny Flank on Mon Apr 07, 2014 at 03:01:04 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  GM - Lenny is saying that everyone is capable (0+ / 0-)

                  of understanding science.  But unfortunately some on the left, as well as on the right lie about what science shows.  This makes it hard to teach people how to distinguish lies from truth, and indeed undermines their faith in their own abilities to think rationally and learn what is true (fits the facts).  

                  BTW, this is supposed to be a rational debate.  Your personal attacks (" ...the world is so unfair and mean to poor old Lenny...") have no place and you should apologize for them.
                  You undermine the objective we all share which is to empower people to think rationally and distinguish facts from lies.  

        •  my comment in the GMO diary is apropos here . . . (8+ / 0-)

          my opposition to GMOs is based on social, economic and political factors---GMOs are used by corporations as a weapon to eliminate competition, to establish a vertical monopoly, and to lock the entire agricultural sector into a semi-feudal dependence; Monsanto's efforts to control both the use of its products and the release of information about it are intolerable in a democracy; and I do not think ANY natural process should be patentable for private profit. And I'm all in favor of regulating the usage of Roundup and every other pesticide to levels that are not damaging to the environment--and if that means Monsanto's GM crops become impractical or not worth the trouble, then tough shit on Monsanto. (shrug)

          BUT . . .  using arguments such as "eating GMOs causes cancer!!!" or "GMOs remove nutrition from food!!" that are incorrect, factually wrong, and simply not true, does not help us. It only makes us ALL look uninformed, it hands Monsanto a big club to beat us all over the head with, and does us far more harm than good.

          There are plenty of good reasons to oppose Monsanto and its practices. We don't need to make stupid shit up.

          (The same reasoning applies to other areas, such as vaccines and nukes.)

          In the end, reality always wins.

          by Lenny Flank on Mon Apr 07, 2014 at 08:48:58 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  sorry, forgot to blockquote that . . . /nt (0+ / 0-)

            In the end, reality always wins.

            by Lenny Flank on Mon Apr 07, 2014 at 08:49:25 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  I agree. There is so much misinfo wrapped (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Caittus, JerryNA, aratinga

            around the anti GMO argument it's downright silly. I don't discuss the topic with friends with whom I share similar or exactly the same positions on the future of ag. It's become a free for all of kitchen sink arguments. The whole of the ills of industrial ag have been dumped into GMOs. Ludicrous.  

            On the other hand Lenny, Monsanto doesn't give a fig what we think or how ludicrous we look. Sure they may gain some mileage among the undecideds by showing our arguments to be without merit, but on the whole, they are unaffected by our concerns. They are the quintessential "inside the halls of power" company. What should concern everyone one here is where the anti-movement has picked up traction- among the far right. Think about it.

            Even if I knew that tomorrow the world would go to pieces, I would still plant my apple tree. -Martin Luther

            by the fan man on Mon Apr 07, 2014 at 09:02:32 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  I have to agree with you. (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Caittus, the fan man, JerryNA, aratinga
            There are plenty of good reasons to oppose Monsanto and its practices. We don't need to make stupid shit up.

            (The same reasoning applies to other areas, such as vaccines and nukes.)

            We have to argue from FACTS, what we know to be true; not from what we WISH to be true, or hope will turn out to be true. Every time we make a statement that has no scientific facts to back it up, we give the opposition another club which they will use to make us look like fools.

            Yes, we need to continue research and, yes, we need to continue trying to educate people. But we need to use the truth to do these things.

            "May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house." - George Carlin

            by Most Awesome Nana on Mon Apr 07, 2014 at 09:06:14 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  To be fair... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      aratinga

      There is no evidence that anti-vaccine, anti-GMO, and Fukishima conspiracy types are actually left-wingers. They aren't (necessarily) "on our side."

      The most strident anti-vax nutters, as you label them, that I've heard (since I don't hang out with Hollywood B-listers) are self-proclaimed libertarians. They tend to see government health-mandates as intrusion and abridgement of personal rights.

      Again, I hear anti-GMO speech from just as many self-styled libertarians and conservatives as self-styled libs. And Fukushima... my very left-leaning students in International Environmental Issues this semester are woefully ignorant of basic physics and nuclear chemistry. But there is also loads of nonsense from the teabaggers and right wing conspiracy types about 'our gubmint lying to us about the waters of Oregon and Washington glowing green from radiation.'

      So, for whatever reason... some anti-science seems to be politically neutral (and shared by conspiracy-minded, low-education nuts of whatever political affiliation). Others (creationism, climate denialism, anti-NASA and NOAA types) are beasts peculiar to the right.

      •  The evidence is that we encounter them amongst (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        aratinga

        folks on the left. The first anti-vaccine people I got to know where all "granola" types. I didn't start seeing a lot of right-wing/libertariany anti-vaccine folks until the whole Gardasil hullaballoo.

        Later, I learned that the anti-vaccine movement had its origin back in the 50s, because it represented a financial and ideological threat to the chiropractors.

        To put the torture behind us is, inevitably, to put it in front of us.

        by UntimelyRippd on Mon Apr 07, 2014 at 07:06:39 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  You know this is true, and I wonder why. (0+ / 0-)

        Possibly some science (climate change due to excess CO2) threatens the profits of the giant corporations who own the right wing.  Evolution has long been opposed by religious powers who want to control our thinking - another right wing thing.   Nuclear power may be opposed by fossil fuel giant corps on the right and by those appalled by nuclear bombs on the left.   OK, these I can rationalize.

        But fluoridation - that seems to attract right wing nuts primarily.  Dentists tend to be small business, so fluoridation did not damage the profits from giant dentist corporations.  Why is it a right wing thing?  

        I suppose the misuse of power by giant agricultural support corporations cause anti-GMO suspicion on the left - but why on the right where corporate positions are supported?

        •  Because on the 'far' right (0+ / 0-)

          lies a fringe that are totally nuts about Obama, gubmint seizing guns, and are anti-corporate. I've run into quite a few hard-right, anti-corporate types in the last couple of years.

          They talk about how much they hate money in politics, share outrage against Monsanto and such with liberals, but vote Republican every time (because 2nd Amendment).

          If there was some way to pry the gun nuts out of the far right, we might actually have some cross-over allies in there somewhere. Many don't like laws proscribing behavior, and they don't like handouts to corporations. They certainly don't like the FDA being run by former Monsanto execs.

          Not sure there is any hope of collaboration, but there certainly are many anti-corporate types that vote Republican against their own interests, and guns  (and racism) are likely why.

    •  The Left _is_ Not as Anti-Science (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      aratinga

      Despite non-sense like Science Left Behind there are two fundamental differences between the so-called anti-science left and the assuredly anti-science right.

      1) The 'Left' who oppose vaccines, GMO's, etc largely do not disagree with the science and background theories of these products - they disagree with the tests which purport to show that they are safe.   Their attack on these studies is largely that they do not trust the corporations which funded them - they assert that the corporations have pressured scientists to cherry-pick data, etc, just like Big Tobacco had done (and it has been well established that the tobacco industry 'fudged studies' to minimize the health risks).   In short these folks are not actually anti-SCIENCE, they are anti-CORPORATION.  

      2) These groups may be more common on the left (but anti-GMO & anti-Vaccine sentiment is strong among Right Wing Preppers) but there is little political movement on these.  FEW Politicians run on a platform of banning vaccines or GMO's - the strongest stance is to label food and not present evidence pro or con.  

      The anti-science Right attacks scientific institutions, and the work of scientists in an effort to replace them as the authority on the scientific principles and evidence... they are more literally fighting a war against science.

      -- illegitimi non carborundum

      by BadBoyScientist on Mon Apr 07, 2014 at 03:56:11 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Bill Nye the Science Guy (3+ / 0-)

    needs to have a debate with

    Weir Scrood the Science Dude

    Politics is like driving. To go backward put it in R. To go forward put it in D.
    DEMAND CREATES JOBS!!!
    Drop by The Grieving Room on Monday nights to talk about grief.

    by TrueBlueMajority on Mon Apr 07, 2014 at 07:19:37 AM PDT

  •  That dude should run for Congress. n/t (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    GreenMother, LaughingPlanet, Caittus

    I'm not always political, but when I am I vote Democratic. Stay Democratic, my friends. -The Most Interesting Man in the World

    by boran2 on Mon Apr 07, 2014 at 07:19:47 AM PDT

  •  Delightful, as always...I came upon an unusual (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    here4tehbeer

    word in an old essay by Ezra Pound - 'nescience'- which really seems to fit...and the Republican Party should be renamed the New Know Nothing Party...or the Know Nothing Now Party...

    Armed! I feel like a savage! Barbarella

    by richardvjohnson on Mon Apr 07, 2014 at 07:59:26 AM PDT

  •  Not Only That (0+ / 0-)

    There are three ever-shifting "debate" positions:

    1) "Scientists" do not agree that global warming is occurring,
    2) Global warming may be occurring, but "scientists" do not agree that it is not anthropogenic,
    3) Global warming may be anthropogenic, but "scientists" do not agree that there's nothing that can be done about it,
    4) Rinse, repeat.

    What we really need is an open debate on Fox, or maybe CNN/HLN now that they've "jumped the shark" on MH370.

    "A famous person once said, 'You can fool some of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.' But as I once said, "If you don't teach them to read, you can fool them whenever you like." – Max Headroom

    by midnight lurker on Mon Apr 07, 2014 at 08:04:39 AM PDT

  •  talking about the weather (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    wonmug, belinda ridgewood

    It seems like the old saying is true:  Everyone talks about the weather, but no one does anything.

    I think it makes more sense to talk about the acidification of the ocean.  The crash of the fish population due to the destruction of the coral and the foundation of the food chain.

    There are pictures off the coast of florida, then and now, to provide compelling evidence of the changes.

    The link of the  rise in CO2 to ocean acidity is well documented.  

    I don't understand why we aren't talking more about that.

  •  like Colbert (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    BlueJessamine, JerryNA

    this is funny because it is so painfully close to the truth.

    We must laugh to keep from crying/punching idiots who believe this labcoat guy.

    I do feel a bit guilty about enjoying a laugh about how foolishly we are all acting about the imminent demise of life as we know it on the only planet we know that can sustain life.

    We're doomed; HA HA HA! Being doomed is FUNNY!

    Global warming & smoking cigarettes = Nothing to worry about? Those who deny climate science are ignorant, evil or worse. Google Fred Singer.

    by LaughingPlanet on Mon Apr 07, 2014 at 08:24:32 AM PDT

  •  Last night NBC aired an hour long show (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JerryNA

    with Ann Curryon the effects of climate change. After all the BS on climate change, I'm not sure how the public received it though.

    It's hard to say "Better late than never," when my hair's been (figuratively) on fire about climate change for at least two decades.  

    "The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. Now do you begin to understand me?" ~Orwell, "1984"

    by Lily O Lady on Mon Apr 07, 2014 at 08:36:52 AM PDT

  •  Thanks, Tom Tomorrow! (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JerryNA

    I just spent an inordinate number of words in my post on evolution vs religion saying what you so succinctly and cogently said in one cartoon.

    As I have said before, you comics guys have it all over us essayist when it comes to getting the point across!

    We have it within our power to make the world over again ~ Thomas Paine

    by occupystephanie on Mon Apr 07, 2014 at 08:37:58 AM PDT

  •  So funny! (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JerryNA, jubal8

    Yet so true...and so pathetic.

    Basically, we're already doomed.  By rich, greedy a**holes.
    ~

  •  SKEPTICAL??? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jubal8

    Using the terms "free-thinking" and "right-wing" in the same sentence is an oxymoron.

  •  I love Tom's cartoons (0+ / 0-)

    We just want a debate.

    Here's their logic: there is the same probability of rolling box cars twice in a row, as there is not rolling twice in a row.  So, they are of equal weight.

    I'll take the "Don't Pass" line, please. :)

    "People should not be afraid of their government; governments should be afraid of their people." --V

    by MikeTheLiberal on Mon Apr 07, 2014 at 12:58:07 PM PDT

  •  Not to nitpick, but nobody I know refers to (0+ / 0-)

    "NOAA" as "The NOAA". For whatever reason, it's treated grammatically like NASA, rather than The NSA.

    To put the torture behind us is, inevitably, to put it in front of us.

    by UntimelyRippd on Mon Apr 07, 2014 at 06:50:38 PM PDT

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