It's been a week since the UCSB shooting. There's lots of coverage on it. Some thoughtful, provocative pieces and some unbelievably dense observations from the shootings and stabbings.
I ran across a thread among millennials today that I got permission to share here. The writing style is nothing like I write. It's very millennial. It's very explicit and uses organic, raw terms. I like to listen to young people when they discuss important subjects. In this case, they pivoted from Elliot Rodger to the dynamics of dating, sex, misogyny, and the potential for violence against women in their relationships. This one settled on "The Friendzone", the area so many young men want to avoid. Yet among these friends, both the women and men seem to realize true friendship is as rare as love.
It all started with the first post below with a link to looking at this comic. What developed was a pretty long thread that explained a lot to me about how a lot of twenty something men and women look at male/female friendships that may or may not result in sex.
I hope you find this exchange of ideas as interesting as I did.
The Friendzone
You aren't Friendzoned because you're nice, you're Friendzoned because we honestly have no interest in dating you, but think you're still a pretty awesome human being worth talking to now and again. If we wanted to date you, it's the 21st century, we might have asked you. All you do by bitching about being our friend is alienate us and make us less likely to keep you as a friend. (And if you're publicly bitching on Facebook about another girl friendzoning you, we'll remember that shit and try very hard not to be your next target for public Facebook bitching, which means not even letting you get close enough to ask.)
Here's a big clue guys, if we're hanging out with you a lot, talking one-on-one with you a lot, playing video games late into the night with you, maybe catching a movie now and again, then we've already pretty much dated you and already know what 'going out' with you is like and we've already assessed whether or not we want to be your girlfriend. If you ask and we say yes, that's awesome for you. If we say no, it's not because we didn't 'try you out.' Because we totally already tried you out. That ship sailed. The only difference between what we've been doing and 'going out' is sex, and that's [sex] not going to change our mind, but it [sex with you] might really suck and potentially hurt a lot. And hey, babies, so that's just a shitty argument. There's nothing different you could have done. We need to know exactly who you are as a person, not a fake persona to get into our pants or some changed habits to make you more like our ideal-- The relationship would be more doomed if you have to change for it. We needed to see exactly who you are, and you did us that favor, and you weren't compatible with us, and that's not your fault or our fault or anybody's fault; it just is. Accept our no as our admission that We are Not Right for You and continue to be our friend... while you find someone else who actually does want to date you.
If you can't be our friend after we said no, then all you wanted was the sex, and you should come to terms with yourself and admit that. If hanging out with us and enjoying us as a person without sex is unsatisfying for you, and you can't enjoy our company without getting to put your dick in us or take our advice and input seriously without getting to put your dick in us, then the core of the problem is that what you really wanted was something to put your dick in.
I have lots of male friends who value my insight and company and don't get to put their dick in me, some who asked me out in the past and still valued my friendship, and I honestly don't understand why every man can't be more like them. I get that it's frustrating, guys. It sucks to be alone when all you want is someone to love you, but blaming women for your lack of patience isn't making the world a better place, or increasing your odds at all (It may, in fact, be decreasing them.)
If you're a man who bitches about the friendzone, Stop.
If you're a man who bitches about the friendzone but somehow believes himself to be exempt from all of the above and thinks he isn't a dick like that and those circumstances totally don't apply to him thus his bitching about the friendzone is totally justified... Your problems start with you, because you've decided not to take a real look at yourself despite the push-back from women about this stupid concept and the true realities of the situation. If You Aren't Listening To The Women Around You, You've Fucked Up Step #1. <---Trufax
If you think this comic isn't what women hear when we hear men bitch about the friendzone, you're solidly buried in a hole filled to the brim with Denial. This is what you're saying, even if you think it isn't.
Last but not least, yes, some women are making stupid decisions about who they date and honestly don't know what they want from their life and maybe you would be a positive influence on them, but that isn't your choice to make. And really, if they're being that stupid and you think they're that stupid and it's really just frustrating to watch them be stupid, that's kinda your Biggest Clue that you two are Not Compatible, at least not at this time, and you should start looking elsewhere anyway. Maybe in a few years when they wise up, they'll come back and ask you if the offer's still open. But you shouldn't wait around for a possibility that may never come (Just celebrate if it does.)
And, of course, all of this applies in the opposite direction, too. I've known women who questioned why the man they wanted to date just wanted to be friends. The thing is, women didn't start a crazy concept that flooded the internet blaming all men for not trying women out, so.
There you have it. It's a little bigger than a nutshell.
I'm surprised this is even still a thing some men think is valid.
And if you still don't get it, maybe this will help.
Also, read some women's health magazines. Specifically the sexual health sections. Maybe if you see some proof [survey results] of how shitty sex with guys can be, you'll stop blaming us for not wanting to have sex with you. (They try it 6 times and still only have a 50/50 chance? And you're wondering why we're reserved about you starting at 1?)
Between the comic and the long post, a whole bunch of comments turned up. I'm sharing the ones I've been given permission to repost.
Well, see, that's the problem. It is about fucking. Because the whole concept is you've been hanging out with and talking to this person long enough to be good friends, and then you ask to make it an official relationship. The only difference between hanging out and talking a lot and hanging out and talking a lot as a couple is the sex that gets woven in. An organic relationship comes from hanging out, talking a lot, then mutually agreeing you'd like to have more, together. This friendzone BS is hanging out, talking a lot, one says they want more, the other says, 'No, I just really like hanging out and talking a lot with you.' and the first ragequits the hanging out and talking a lot and blames the other person for not 'trying them out in a relationship.'
Anyone who knows how a real relationship works knows the hanging out and talking a lot is trying out the relationship. The friendzone bitching is actually being butthurt that a person you wanted to date likes all the being around you stuff, but doesn't want the romance and sex part. Thus, it actually does come down to sex.
Women do not get offended, after all, by the guy who asks for a date, respects the no answer, and continues to be her good friend. It's the men who blame her for not giving him a chance to have sex with her too, that they have a problem with.
There may be a rare case where the man just wants to try out nonsexual cuddling, but. Let's be real. That's not the majority of cases.
Props to the men who like nonsexual cuddling, tho.
The women who say they don't want to ruin the friendship are really saying, "I'm pretty sure this isn't going to work out because I'm not interested in you and if I indulge you and let you be my boyfriend, I will inevitably have to break up with you and you'll resent me for that."
I had exactly that situation in high school, I inevitably broke up with him, he resented me so bad he could never look me in the eye again. It would have been better to not date him.
There are Guys who get it
Personally I think there is a freindzone, it is just self inflicted. Girl says no you have 2 choices. Either she is friend material which is a rare commodity itself and you accept that and live with that. or she isn't in which case you shouldn't be hanging around this person just for sex anyways and it's a good thing she said no and gave you the opportunity to think about it and see the truth about the matter when not blinded with false hopes and expectations. If you are in the freindzone it's because you aren't mature enough to deal with the reality that not everyone wants your penis. They don't. Tough.
I understand and, in fact, also believe that, but EVERY conversation I've seen, read and participated in about "the friend zone" assumes that saying that means we SOLELY wanted someone to fuck, and that's fucked up.
Speaking from experience, almost every woman that opted to stay platonic when I was romantically interested ended up being a better friend than I could have imagined. In retrospect, a lot of them probably would not have worked out as partners -- which is precisely where they were coming from.
I suspect that if many people analyzed the situation, they'd find that deep down they'd be better off as friends after all. But it doesn't help that people feel like it's so difficult to find someone, that any rejection is perceived as a lost opportunity that must be resisted at all costs.
A relationship isn't just a friendship with sex, but it is friendship with sex. It's friendship, sex, compatibility, physical attraction, and deep emotional investment in one another. Logically, a great friend will make a great relationship.
And there's always "that guy" who posted all over the thread
Did you know that you're a crazy bitch?
If you think a relationship is a friendship with sex, you've been having terrible relationships.
Women don't whine about being rejected. They impulsively hate him and do everything they can to ruin his life, which usually amounts to badmouthing him to her girlfriends and insisting they cut ties.
Sometimes a guy was really interested in sex to begin with, and is clueless. He knows how to make a friend but not hit on a girl. So he does what he knows, and 6 months later approaches the topic. She has never thought about him this way because he never showed interest before, and his pathetic display now isn't going to change that. But it's not that hard to break out.. just be charming, express interest, tell her honestly that she's grown on you and you intend to win her over, take her on dates and talk about the kind of stuff you'd talk about on a first date rather than with a friend. Or you can just dump it on her and cry about being friend zoned.
Interesting philosophies
It's funny that "friend-zoning" would even be a bad thing: heaven forbid I end up with a mere friend who enjoys my company enough to still want to be around me. Perhaps if we didn't devalue platonic relationships versus romantic/sexual ones, it wouldn't be such a dreaded consequence.
Of course, it doesn't help that many men virgin shame themselves and others, making the inability to "attain" a woman the worst possible thing imaginable. Hookup culture is greatly exaggerated and the idea that not being able to have a girlfriend and/or sex is such a shameful thing is a big reason why concepts like the friendzone -- and subsequent misogyny -- exist.
It's worth pointing out that while it's typically a male phenomenon, a lot of women display a similar mentality along the same premise: if you can't attract a man or settle down by a certain age, you're probably crazy, unattractive, undesirable, etc. So maybe the problem is just single-shaming people in general.
If you're aiming for a relationship rather than aiming to get to know a person by whatever they're comfortable with, what you're saying is, you're aiming for sex while you get to know them rather than just getting to know them, bringing it back to fucking, which makes you what women are complaining about. The guy who is only her friend waiting until the chance to turn it into sex or bail.
Are we only worth our vaginas? I thought talking to me was enjoyable in and of itself.
If you want sex while you get to know me, you will not be getting to know me. I only ever dated a man I knew for a whole year before entering a relationship with him. I've avoided a lot of the dating pitfalls women around me have fallen into by this method, and I firmly recommend it to everyone who asks. I get ignored a lot.
The link to the sex survey created a bit of by play
And I'm not trying to blame men for wanting sex. Everyone wants good sex. It's just that men are about 130% more likely to enjoy sex with a new partner than women are. Women are only 30% likely to orgasm on the first hookup with a partner. Like, come on. It increases to 50% after 6 hookups. 50%. 50/50 chance. After 6 hookups. It is not women's fault that they're reserved about opening their bodies to a new person. It legitimately doesn't work out a lot. And with every guy talking like they've got all the skillz, how are women to know? Honestly.
I'm not saying all men who bitch about the friendzone just want sex, either. Most of them honestly do care about the woman they've spent that much time with. You can only take so much over-coffee bitching about work, life, her period, bad hair, that dress she wants, etc, without actually caring. But the difference between that and a relationship really is the physical portion and probably pooling of financials at some point. The longest lasting romantic relationships are also the best friendships. Logically, a romantic relationship ought to be a friendship with sex. Thus, changing friendship into a relationship is inclusion of sex. Thus, friendzone to relationship is her letting him put his dick in her.
If it was me, it would also be an admission that I could see myself growing old with you, but most dating doesn't work like that. I wish I could put that kind of sentimental admission into the act of declaring a relationship, but if the 'stranger to relationship' thing is more likely than, 'guy I've known forever into a relationship' thing, then that pretty much destroys that idea, doesn't it? Reducing it to sex. Which is sad as Hell, but exactly the reality of the situation.
I have known friendzoned women. They didn't turn it into an internet group. They didn't say things like, "Men say they want pretty girls. I'm pretty. Why won't he give me a chance?" (That scene in the Rom Com when the girl with her hair all mussed and her make-up smeared looks imploringly up at the random passer-by and asks, "Do you think I'm pretty?" But she doesn't blame the men, she blames herself. Which is also important to think about.) The phenomena was definitely men-driven, but I'm not going to say all men are at fault, just a disturbingly large number.
I wish I could tl;dr that, but there's no way to sum that up without making improper generalizations.
Wait, maybe I can.
TL;DR It's not just about sex, but it's totally all about sex.
/soapbox
It's funny because I have always thought there was a friendzone-just not the way described by most. To me friendzoned simply meant you two(regardless of gender) were really close and one person was interested(or not even) but the other (or both) thought of the other was more like a distant cousin to be in a relationship with. Did that make sense? Lol basically, it's those friends you just cant imagine being with because theyre like extended family. This whole "you said no even though I was really nice" concept didnt even come into my life till college, although once I learned what it was I realized it had been done to me before (I mean a guy stop being my friend because I said no).
Women Attacks
I have been accused multiple times of "friend zoning" and not always by the guys I've apparently done it to; sometimes it's women accusing me of doing it to others.
It often feels like people are saying that as a woman if I don't intend to sleep with a guy it's unacceptable and worse cruel for me to spend time with them.
I asked these commenters why they don't visit forums like dkos and everyone of them told me they hate politics. That's a diary in itself. Maybe I'll share it with you soon.
Thanks for reading.