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Ukraine, Obama, hypocrisy and ethnic cleansing

Question: Why did President Obama condemn the use of deadly government force against the violent protesters in the Kiev Maidan riots on February 20th but not condemn the use of deadly force and military operatons by the new coup established regime against the entire civilian population who voted to secede in East Ukraine?

The first event was a violent coup and the 2nd was a largely attended peaceful referendum.  The first event was conducted by predominantly west Ukrainian young violent  hooligans with far right nationalist views. The 2nd event was attended by a broad swath of East Ukrainian citizenry including many families, elderly people, a large number of middle aged women and men. Videos of the referendum show tens of thousands of people voting peacefully to separate, a stark contrast to the dark and violent imagery of the Maidan riots and government overthrow. Considering that the country is largey divided along ethnic lines, why was establishing new boundaries that would have led to less bloodshed not considered as a viable option for sustainable peace by the US government?

In February 2014 the Right Sector and Svoboda Party as well as a number of far right nationalist groups overthrew the democratically elected government of Ukraine in a violent coup that was shown on video around the world. The groups used extreme methods of violence including petrol bombs and mass attacks against the Berkut police forces of Ukraine and eventually overthrew the elected government. The United States supported those groups and issued the following statements to de-escalate the violence against Ukrainian citizens.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/...

We are outraged by the images of Ukrainian security forces firing automatic weapons on their own people.  We urge President Yanukovych to immediately withdraw his security forces from downtown Kyiv and to respect the right of peaceful protest, and we urge protesters to express themselves peacefully.  We urge the Ukrainian military not to get involved in a conflict that can and should be resolved by political means.   The use of force will not resolve the crisis -- clear steps must be taken to stop the violence and initiate meaningful dialogue that reduces tension and addresses the grievances of the Ukrainian people.  The United States will work with our European allies to hold those responsible for violence accountable and to help the Ukrainian people get a unified and independent Ukraine back on the path to a better future.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/...

Statement by the Press Secretary on Ukraine
The United States welcomes the agreement signed today between Ukrainian President Yanukovych and Opposition leaders.  The agreement, facilitated by Foreign Ministers Fabius, Sikorski, and Steinmeier and witnessed by Russia, is consistent with what we have advocated in calling for a de-escalation of the violence, constitutional change, a coalition government, and early elections.  We support the efforts of all those who negotiated this agreement, commend the courageous opposition leaders who recognized the need for compromise, and offer the support of the United States in its implementation.  Now, the focus must be on concrete action to implement this agreement, which we will be monitoring closely.
 

In this regard, we call for immediate implementation of the initial steps -- an end to the violence, amnesty and security normalization, and passage of the constitutional package in the Rada -- to provide space for the negotiations to begin on formation of a technocratic coalition government.  Respect for the right of peaceful protest –- including on the Maidan –- is essential.  As we have said, there must be accountability for those responsible for the violence and the casualties that have resulted since the crisis began, and we remain prepared to impose additional sanctions as necessary.  The United States stands with the Ukrainian people as they work to restore peace, security, and human dignity across the country and determine the future course of their nation.
http://www.theguardian.com/...

Excerpt:

Barack Obama released a scathing statement in which he said his administration was outraged by the images of Ukrainian security forces firing automatic weapons on their own people. “We urge President Yanukovych to immediately withdraw his security forces from downtown Kiev and to respect the right of peaceful protest, and we urge protesters to express themselves peacefully.”
Kerry said he felt “anger and anguish” at the violence in Ukraine. He called on Yanukovych to undertake serious negotiations with opposition leaders immediately.
“The violence must stop. We unequivocally condemn the use of force against civilians by security forces and urge that those forces be withdrawn immediately. The people of Ukraine and the international community will hold to account those who are responsible for what has occurred and the United States has already begun implementing sanctions through travel bans on Ukrainians responsible for the violence.”

US State department spokesperson Jen Psaki condones bombing civilians. https://www.youtube.com/...

http://youtu.be/...

On May 2nd the Odessa massacre took place, implemented by the same far right radical groups that had participated in the Maidan riots. The US did not condemn that violence at that time. Instead the United States gave the new coup installed Ukrainian government a large media payment the very same day through the USAID program.

USAID INCREASES SUPPORT FOR MEDIA AND PRESS FREEDOM IN UKRAINE
For Immediate Release
Friday, May 2, 2014
USAID Press Office

http://www.usaid.gov/...

This support takes place on May 2, 2014- the very same day of the Odessa massacre.....the Kiev Post publishes the following article on May 3, 2014, the very next day.

http://www.kyivpost.com/...

Headline at link reads:
Police say pro-Russians accidentally set fatal Odessa fire with Molotov cocktails (LIVE UPDATES, VIDEO)
Print version
May 3, 2014, 6:45 p.m. | Ukraine — by Kyiv Post

Now take a look at the way these people died and attempt to figure out all these "accidents". Warning graphic photos: Pictures are of corpses in various states of death. They were not accidental deaths.

http://ucmopuockon.livejournal.com/...

After the people of east Ukraine witnessed the massacre in Odessa and the massacre of the local ethnic Russian people in Mariupol on May 9, 2014, the idea of separating East Ukraine from West Ukraine became understandably very popular amonst the majority of the 7.5 million ethnic Russians living in the east. The United States did not support the right for the Ukrainians in the east to hold a peaceful referendum and separate. Instead they supported the new coup government that chose not to carry out an investigation of the Odessa massacre, that very same government which had sent the Right Sector radicals (now inducted into the newly formed National Guard) to Mariupol where extreme violence, that included government troops shooting civilians on camera with their hands raised in the air, took place.

Government troops muder civilians in Mariupol –murders take place at 1:50 mark http://youtu.be/...  Once again there was no condemnation from the United States for these killings.

During the referendum, people trying to vote were killed on camera, once again, by new coup government forces who by this time were receiving financial support from the United States. No mention was made in the US media of these killings, nor the killings on camera in Mariupol. Instead the US government and media consistently kept a focus on President Putin of Russia who they blamed for supporting the people in East Ukraine.

http://youtu.be/...  Murder of citizens by new coup military take place at 2:52 mark. Two people died as a result. There was no condemnation from the United States.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/...

http://www.state.gov/...

Around that time the people of East Ukraine who took up arms against the new coup installed government that was invading east Ukraine were being labeled as 'terrorists' by the new regime.  They have even been called 'Untermensch' by the government,  a term the nazis used to describe victims as 'subhumans'. These people were never terrorists. They were the fathers and sons of east Ukraine who simply didn't want to live under a government they had witnessed killing civilians of ethnic Russian descent. They wanted to protect their land and their way of life against people they belived were fascist murderers. They took up arms to protect their families and their way of life. That is not difficult to understand under the circumstances. Some fighters did sneak across the border to help them, possibly no more than in any other regional conflcit where ethnicity and geographic boundaries play a role. This is common and not proof of direct Russian involvement. Even if it was, is it not completely understatndable that relatives and friends across the border in Russia may want to help their family members against people that are killing them? Juxtapose that fact in comparison to the fact that the United States is a country that is 5,000 miles away and has no legitimate right to be financing the new coup established Ukrainian army.

http://youtu.be/...

http://youtu.be/...

The US government chose to put forth the story that the separatist movement was made up of strictly Russian fighters, however, this was never the case and has never been proven even though it is believed to be true by a large portion of the US population due to the massive media coverup of the violence that has been conducted by the Right Sector (National Guard). The large amounts of video evidence on You Tube clearly show the people fighting are predominantly the men of east Ukraine. There are many videos of parades and support from locals available for viewing. There are some fighters who came from other regions but a quick look at the videos of separatist events in Donestk show that these are the fathers and sons of the women and children that cheer them on in their fight for their own freedom from fascism and tyranny and the quest for their own “manifest destiny “. Many of them came from the Berkut police force which was deprived of over 17,000 police when the overthrow took place, others were regular Ukrainian army personnel who decided not to fight against their own people and instead join the fight for their own people. Numerous videos on You Tube show them giving up their weapons and deciding not to fire upon their own people. This is also completely understandable.

http://youtu.be/...

http://youtu.be/...

The Bombardment of Slavyansk

The indiscriminate shelling of Slavyansk began in mid May 2014 and took place for a period of approximately 45 days. During that time the new Kiev government authorized the military to use massive firepower against the entire city (population 120,000) filled with women, children, the elderly, the destitute, their pets, the moms, dads and families of Slavyansk. Bombs fell anywhere and everywhere, killing over 200 people including many women and children. The US government did not condemn this atrocity and war crime. Instead, they actively supported it through financing and military supplies. The US media did not report on this atrocity and war crime which lends credence to a cover up. The bombing of the city of Kramatorsk also took place at this time as did numerous other military atrocities across the countryside.

http://rt.com/...

Why did the US government condone the shelling of the civilian population of East Ukraine and not denounce it as the atrocity it was? What was the reason for the shelling of the city by the Kiev government that the US tolerated? During the bombings they intentionally destroyed the city water suppy facilities, the electrical facilities and food storage and distribution centers thereby creating a human rights tragedy leaving many people homeless. All of these actions were effected directly against the civilian population of Slavyansk which led to hundreds of civilian deaths, including many women and children and a huge exodus of refugees fleeing to Russia (not to Kiev). The UN has stated that the number is at least 110,000 - yet US State Department spokesperson Jen Psaki sociopathicaly went so far as to deny this and avoid questioning on the shelling of civilians, all the while constantly framing the conflict as the fault of Vladimir Putin and Russia. She actually insinuated that it was the Russian military dropping white phosherous on people when asked of it's illegal use by the KIev Ukrainian military by AP reporter Matt Lee.  Mr. Lee explains to her that it was the Ukrainian army doing this, she attempts to deflect blame.

Skip to 7:45 mark.

https://www.youtube.com/...  

Apparently bombing civilians who peacefully voted to separate and establish their own country is ok by Barack Obama and the US government, however, when the Maidan protesters violently overthrew the former government - using force against extremely violent protesters - was not allowed. This is completely hypocritical and disingenuious, to say the least. Especially considering the magnitude of military force and explosive ordinance being used and the indiscriminate killing of civilians taking place. The videos below show the impact of the shelling of Slavyansk and surrounding villages.

The Donbass people being attacked by the US financed Ukrainian military.

https://www.youtube.com/...

45 minutes of atrocities. Much of this footage was filmed by the Ukrainian army themselves. Video includes them dumping corpses. Graphic warning: video shows over 100 atrocities.

https://www.youtube.com/...

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Comment Preferences

  •  Is that you, Vladimir? (33+ / 0-)

    So Putin starts a civil war, takes the Crimea, backs down to Barack Obama's strong policies, and YOU blame Obama.  I call bullshit.

    Join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news and views written from a black pov—everyone is welcome.

    by TomP on Thu Jul 10, 2014 at 08:08:57 AM PDT

  •  See how many times you can get those links posted (6+ / 0-)

    I see how that goes.

    Streichholzschächtelchen

    by otto on Thu Jul 10, 2014 at 08:23:08 AM PDT

    •  How about this? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ChadmanFL

      This is one of the Right Sector ( ‘National Guard’ ) leaders. His name is Mykola Bondar.  It’s hard to look any more ‘Hitleresque’ than this man. He is incredibly scary to look at. In late June he called for a resumption of war and the complete annihilation of the people of east Ukraine.

      http://youtu.be/...

      •  The Guardian comes clean and admits (0+ / 0-)

        what's really going on....finally. Guardian report interviews multiple families in Slavyansk. All of the families have been bombed and are in fear of their lives from the Ukrainian National Guard. This article is the first time the Guardian has broke through the wall of coverup that has been going on. More proof that the truth is coming out. Europe has woken up to it. The US is still sleeping.

        http://www.theguardian.com/...

  •  Russia's Top 20 Lies about Ukraine. (8+ / 0-)

    Re: Ukraine, because Russia wants to take what is not theirs, Russia's propaganda machine swung into high gear.  I don't believe anything Vladimir Putin and his allies say, ever. Fucking liars.

    -4.75, -5.33 Cheney 10/05/04: "I have not suggested there is a connection between Iraq and 9/11."

    by sunbro on Thu Jul 10, 2014 at 08:23:33 AM PDT

    •  Your link is dead. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      sunbro, TomP
      •  Thanks. (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        TomP, raptavio, FG, ER Doc

        Try this one.

        -4.75, -5.33 Cheney 10/05/04: "I have not suggested there is a connection between Iraq and 9/11."

        by sunbro on Thu Jul 10, 2014 at 08:36:05 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Julia Davis is an interesting person. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          protectspice

          Born in Kiev during the Soviet era. Former Customs and Border Protection officer. Now a filmmaker and apparently a political blogger. Funny how there aren't any links to the actual stories, just the photos. It's also weird how you managed to post a link to your local drive.

          Whoops!

          If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

          by HairyTrueMan on Thu Jul 10, 2014 at 10:44:29 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Putin spends billions on propaganda each year (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            ER Doc, aimeehs

            on misleading propaganda to spread his false view of the world, through RT, though ITAR-TASS News Agency, through RIA Novosti and through "Voice of Russia", etc.  And he pays political; bloggers to fill our political websites with misinformation. If you use Google News, you'll find Putin's voice is well-represented because of the billions of petro-dollars he he spent to pull the wool over the world's eyes.

            I'd be very careful before believing even one word that comes out of a Russian or Russian-influenced source. They are dirty. They have no allegiance to the truth.

            -4.75, -5.33 Cheney 10/05/04: "I have not suggested there is a connection between Iraq and 9/11."

            by sunbro on Thu Jul 10, 2014 at 11:32:15 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Putin's Useful Idiots: (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            killjoy, charlatan, ER Doc, aimeehs

            -4.75, -5.33 Cheney 10/05/04: "I have not suggested there is a connection between Iraq and 9/11."

            by sunbro on Thu Jul 10, 2014 at 11:35:26 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I prefer Sierakowski's piece from November... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              sunbro

              2013 about how the EU needs Ukraine.

              If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

              by HairyTrueMan on Thu Jul 10, 2014 at 12:23:40 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Yes, I like this comment at the bottom (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                aimeehs

                of that article too:

                "There is a big difference between 'Russia' and 'Putin's Russia'. Do not confuse the two. I am all for the Russian people deciding their own future, doing business, organising their cultural and social affairs, but NOT the crude, high-handed, manipulative way that Putin directs everything at present: the Russians, and Russia, deserve far better than that. This is one of the issues concerning Ukrainians at present - you have only to look at the use of economic and shrewd political blackmail used by the Kremlin to get its way. I quite agree the West and the EU are far from blameless in their outlook and attitudes - fair comment. But if you had Putin's Russia as your neighbour, and your culture and customs were largely eastern European and not Russian, you would seek to promote the European sphere of influence, too, I think. Not throw your lot in with the proven political, legal and economic bullies and utterly, utterly corrupt mafiosi that comprise today's Kremlin. Do I not have a point?"

                -4.75, -5.33 Cheney 10/05/04: "I have not suggested there is a connection between Iraq and 9/11."

                by sunbro on Thu Jul 10, 2014 at 12:43:10 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Eastern Ukraine's culture and customs... (0+ / 0-)

                  are largely Russian and not eastern European. Do I not have a point? In fact, isn't that exactly the problem? Sierakowski ignores this fact that Ukraine is not a homogeneous state with a common culture. Many of it's citizens, particularly in the east, identify with Russia, not Europe.

                  If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

                  by HairyTrueMan on Thu Jul 10, 2014 at 01:26:57 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Does that mean (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    ER Doc, aimeehs

                    that Ukraine must allow the Kremlin to dominate them? No, it does not.

                    Most Ukrainians DO NOT want to be under Russia's thumb anymore.

                    Putin needs to stop sending arms into the regional capitals of Donetsk and Luhansk. It is creating instability, which is totally unnecessary.

                    Let Ukraine govern itself without Putin's interference.

                    What are the Chechens doing there for God's sake? They need to go home.

                    -4.75, -5.33 Cheney 10/05/04: "I have not suggested there is a connection between Iraq and 9/11."

                    by sunbro on Thu Jul 10, 2014 at 01:35:02 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  The east doesn't want to be governed by Kiev. (0+ / 0-)

                      That's what you seem to be missing. They want autonomy.

                      If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

                      by HairyTrueMan on Thu Jul 10, 2014 at 07:12:09 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Yes, (0+ / 0-)

                        "while opinion polls consistently show that a majority of eastern Ukrainians does not support the separatist rebels nor approved of the May 11 referendum on regional sovereignty, efforts must be made in the east to rebuild trust in the central government."

                        The rebels and the Chechens should leave, and then Kiev should build a coalition government, and give minority rights to the eastern Ukrainians. It can be worked out, but not through Putin supplying advanced weaponry to foreign fighters entering from the Russian border into Donetsk and Luhansk. Putin is purposely fomenting instability in hopes of having a stronger bargaining position at the bargaining table. Putin should just let Ukraine go, and stop his imperialist dream of turning Ukraine back into a Russian-dominated territory. The USSR is history.

                        -4.75, -5.33 Cheney 10/05/04: "I have not suggested there is a connection between Iraq and 9/11."

                        by sunbro on Thu Jul 10, 2014 at 09:22:42 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

            •  Not just Putin's either (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              sunbro, Tony Situ

              Any anti-US regime will do, no matter how authoritarian.

        •  More use of the very same nazi symbolism. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ChadmanFL, protectspice

          Additional use of the symbol by Ukrainian extremists and members of the current Kiev government. In this video which features tens of thousands of Ukrainian pro nazi far right nationalists conducting ritual parade ceremonies and violence across west Ukraine we see multiple uses of the Waffen SS Verfugungstruppe symbol alongside the red and black flag of Stephen Bandera (the WW2 nazi collaborator who oversaw the deaths of 80,000 Jews and Poles) and the yellow and blue Ukrainian flag.

          http://youtu.be/...

          This video features Oleg Tanybuk, the leader of Svoboda who met with John McCain and Victoria Nuland in the early stages of Maidan. He is now a minister in the current Kiev coup imposed government. Notice the flags.

          http://www.youtube.com/...

          Meeting with McCain- http://youtu.be/...

          Please read his wiki page. He wants to re-establish Ukraine as a nuclear power. Imagine Nazis with nukes in the heart of Europe.

           http://en.wikipedia.org/...

          •  That Nazi accusation is bullshit. (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            amyzex, ER Doc, charlatan, aimeehs

            Putin wants you not to give Ukraine rights simply by accusing it of being made up of Nazis.

            The Nazi element in Ukraine is no greater than the Nazi element here in the USA. What, do you want to discredit the USA because of its Nazis too?

            Most of us here in the U.S. hate the Nazis; the same is true in Ukraine....they won't give them the time of day, let alone any influence in their govt.

            -4.75, -5.33 Cheney 10/05/04: "I have not suggested there is a connection between Iraq and 9/11."

            by sunbro on Thu Jul 10, 2014 at 11:23:43 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Please refer to my evidence in regards to (0+ / 0-)

              this as posted above. You may have missed it. It is clearly laid out and the video filming came from Chanel 5 which is owned by Poroshenko himself. Nazis usually aren't known for their intelligence. They fact they film themselves is how Europe has figured out they are the bad guys. Check the video and cite of the Waffen SS. Correlate it with that flag in that Ukrainian army ceremony and then get back to me.

              •  Re: Putin's Nazi label on Kiev...It's nonsense. (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                ER Doc, charlatan, aimeehs
                A reader not blessed with fluency in KGB language may require a translation. Here it is: any Ukrainian, or for that matter any denizen of any former Soviet republic, who opposes the KGB domination of his country is ipso facto a Nazi or, to diversify the vocabulary, a fascist.

                It would be useless to insist on etymological precision – the KGB/FSB has its own lexicon that only ever overlaps with the accepted one by accident. However, if we insist on staying within the bounds of convention, Poroshenko is a centrist by any Western definition.

                Moreover, the two Ukrainian parties that could be legitimately described in such disparaging terms collectively polled about 1.5 per cent of the vote in the last election. In Russia herself similar parties consistently claim the better part of a quarter of the electorate. Nazi-style marches are also much more popular in Moscow than in Kiev.

                Never mind: Poroshenko’s government is resisting a takeover by the truly fascist gangs armed, trained, inspired and largely staffed by Putin’s sponsoring organisation. That makes Poroshenko a Nazi in the colonel’s eyes, and that’s all there is to it.

                -4.75, -5.33 Cheney 10/05/04: "I have not suggested there is a connection between Iraq and 9/11."

                by sunbro on Thu Jul 10, 2014 at 01:06:39 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I see you spinning. (0+ / 0-)

                  Distracting from the video evidence as presented above does not further your argument. If anything it detracts from it. Try addressing the evidence.

                  •  You joined dKos today (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    ER Doc, aimeehs, Tony Situ

                    to spin this Kremlin-friendly nonsense.

                    Screw Vladimir Putin. He needs to get of Ukraine NOW, and leave this sovereign country alone.

                    Notice there is no Russian flag on the Ukraine wiki site.

                    Putin needs to respect Ukraine's boundaries. Get out, Vladimir Putin.

                    -4.75, -5.33 Cheney 10/05/04: "I have not suggested there is a connection between Iraq and 9/11."

                    by sunbro on Thu Jul 10, 2014 at 01:24:15 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  Language (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    aimeehs
                    According to the constitution, the state language of Ukraine is Ukrainian.[263] Russian is widely spoken, especially in eastern and southern Ukraine.[263] According to the 2001 census, 67.5 percent of the population declared Ukrainian as their native language and 29.6 percent declared Russian.[264] Most native Ukrainian speakers know Russian as a second language.
                    Get out, Russia. It's not your country. Leave Ukraine to the Ukrainians!

                    -4.75, -5.33 Cheney 10/05/04: "I have not suggested there is a connection between Iraq and 9/11."

                    by sunbro on Thu Jul 10, 2014 at 01:29:55 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I'm trying to protect the Ukrainians (0+ / 0-)

                      from the nazis (orcs). That seems to be lost on you.

                      •  I don't even believe that is true. (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        killjoy, aimeehs

                        The "Nazi problem" in Ukraine is like the "alien problem" in Roswell, New Mexico.

                        It appears more to me that you are siding with the Russians, and trying to promote Russian hegemony over a country that does not belong to Russia.

                        Putin tried and failed to promote a story that Ukraine's government is comprised of Nazis, but the truth is, that he simply does not like that Ukraine is no longer allowing Russia to treat it as a Russian territory as it was under the USSR. That's just tough beans. Screw Putin. He should find another hobby other than treating sovereign states as if they are his own.

                        Putin told Bush that Ukraine is just a territory and not a sovereign state and that is how Putin currently treats Ukraine.

                        Get out, Vladimir Putin.

                        -4.75, -5.33 Cheney 10/05/04: "I have not suggested there is a connection between Iraq and 9/11."

                        by sunbro on Thu Jul 10, 2014 at 04:35:15 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

          •  Tyahnibok is not a minister. He's not in the (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            sunbro, aimeehs

            government at all. Red and black flag is used by anarchists worldwide. I'm sure they will be happy to know that they are now nazis. Bandera is a controversial character but he's dead and not participating in current events. As far as fascists go, many Russian volunteers who fight in eastern Ukraine on pro-Russian side are neo-Nazis. As for reestablishing Ukraine as a nuclear power, it is completely reasonable from a Ukrainian point of view given what happened. And we already have Russia as a highly nationalistic nuclear power. With a lot more nukes.

            •  Proof of New Ukrainian Army atrocities. (0+ / 0-)

              A large portion of this extremely graphic video was filmed by the new coup Ukrainian army themselves. It includes the dumping of corpses and many scenes of death and destruction. This video is considered as the primary proof of atrocities and is being used by the Russian government to prove the case to the OSCE right now. Graphic warning:

              http://youtu.be/...

            •  Excellent points. (0+ / 0-)

              Thank you.

              -4.75, -5.33 Cheney 10/05/04: "I have not suggested there is a connection between Iraq and 9/11."

              by sunbro on Thu Jul 10, 2014 at 11:37:54 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  The red and black flag of the UPA (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              otto

              dates back to world war two, and is different from the anarcho-syndicalist flag, which has a diagonal divide.

              http://www.bbc.com/...

              A black and red flag, this one raised by pro-Ukraine protesters, belongs to the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA). The members were Ukrainian nationalists who fought against both sides in WW2 for an independent Ukraine - even resorting to collaborating with the German army as a tactical strategy to achieve nationalist goals. Some accuse them of murdering Jews and Poles, so in Russia this flag is regarded as fascist.

              "Liberty without socialism is privilege, injustice; socialism without liberty is slavery and brutality." - Michael Bakunin (Economic Left/Right: -10.00 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -9.79)

              by ZhenRen on Thu Jul 10, 2014 at 06:57:08 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  There's some irony right there:) (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        OHdog, sunbro

        The only hawk I like is the kind that has feathers. My birding blogs: http://thisskysings.wordpress.com/ and canyonbirds.net

        by cany on Thu Jul 10, 2014 at 08:42:58 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Btw, if bombardment was indeed massive and (8+ / 0-)

    lasted for 1.5 months then why are there only 200 dead? Assuming that this number is correct and from other sources it looks like it's probably slightly exaggerated. When Russia bombed Grozny in 1994 and 1999, there were  thousands of casualties.

  •  Proof?????????????????? (3+ / 0-)

    Your proof consists of Wikipedia and YouTube where any body can write anything they want whether it is true or not. Don't think you can win a debate on those grounds.

    "A dreamer is one who can only find his way by moonlight, and his punishment is that he sees the dawn before the rest of the world." Oscar Wilde

    by michelewln on Thu Jul 10, 2014 at 08:28:29 AM PDT

  •  Diarist--Don't be fooled by Russian Propaganda. (8+ / 0-)
    British newspaper The Guardian notes that recently, readers have been complaining of pro-Russia propaganda being posted in the comments section of articles about Russia and Ukraine.

    One reader wrote to The Guardian:

    One need only pick a Ukraine article at random, pick any point in the comments at random, and they will find themselves in a sea of incredibly aggressive and hostile users (the most obvious have accounts created since February 2014 … but there also exist those who registered with the Guardian before the high point of the crisis) who post the most biased, inciteful [sic] pro-Kremlin, anti-western propaganda that seems as if it's taken from a template, so repetitive are the statements. Furthermore, these comments are consistently capturing inordinate numbers of 'recommends', sometimes on the order of 10 to 12 times what pro-Ukrainian comments receive.

    Guardian comment moderators believe this is an orchestrated campaign.

    Russia has worked hard to make people believe that the country is supporting the Russian-speaking population in Ukraine and defending those people against some type of threat. These "comment mills" play into that strategy.

    Last year, The Atlantic wrote about how the Russian government apparently pays people to "sit in a room, surf the Internet, and leave sometimes hundreds of postings a day that criticize the country's opposition and promote Kremlin-backed policymakers."

    -4.75, -5.33 Cheney 10/05/04: "I have not suggested there is a connection between Iraq and 9/11."

    by sunbro on Thu Jul 10, 2014 at 08:32:31 AM PDT

    •  Both the Atlantic and the Guardian (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ChadmanFL

      speculate without evidence. Here's the Guardian in 2011 before they became an outlet of misinformation. This is factual not analytical speculation.  Please think critically.

      http://www.theguardian.com/...

      Excerpt:

      The US military is developing software that will let it secretly manipulate social media sites by using fake online personas to influence internet conversations and spread pro-American propaganda.

      A Californian corporation has been awarded a contract with United States Central Command (Centcom), which oversees US armed operations in the Middle East and Central Asia, to develop what is described as an "online persona management service" that will allow one US serviceman or woman to control up to 10 separate identities based all over the world.

      The project has been likened by web experts to China's attempts to control and restrict free speech on the internet. Critics are likely to complain that it will allow the US military to create a false consensus in online conversations, crowd out unwelcome opinions and smother commentaries or reports that do not correspond with its own objectives.

      The discovery that the US military is developing false online personalities – known to users of social media as "sock puppets" – could also encourage other governments, private companies and non-government organisations to do the same.

      The Centcom contract stipulates that each fake online persona must have a convincing background, history and supporting details, and that up to 50 US-based controllers should be able to operate false identities from their workstations "without fear of being discovered by sophisticated adversaries".

      •  What's YOUR motivation? (5+ / 0-)

        You give one side, the pro-Russia, anti-Kiev, anti-Obama side.

        How did you come to your mindset?

        I actually KNOW people, friends of mine, in Ukraine, who don't appreciate Putin's meddling in their country. They want Putin to butt out. That is why I know what I do.  Are you in Russia? Don't you know that the "Ukaine's govt is Nazis" lie is just that?

        Putin wants you to think that Kiev and Ukrainians, who democratically-elected Poroshenko, have no right to self-rule. Well, fuck Vladimir Putin! That liar Putin can kiss my ass.

        -4.75, -5.33 Cheney 10/05/04: "I have not suggested there is a connection between Iraq and 9/11."

        by sunbro on Thu Jul 10, 2014 at 09:22:04 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  This is my motivation... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ChadmanFL, protectspice

          to try to help people like this man who is about to be killed.
          This is another Right Sector leader Oleg Lyashko filmed (by his own crew) only a few days ago in Slavyansk bringing democracy and freedom. He threatens to throw the representative from the window if he doesn’t resign and sign off on having committed crimes against the coup government.  

          https://www.youtube.com/...

          •  A perfect illustration (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            TomP, sunbro, charlatan, aimeehs

            of the present Russian propaganda focus.

            http://uacrisis.org/...

            "The new cornerstone of Russian propaganda became the hundred-times-a-day-repeated mantra of “Ukraine’s (now legitimate) government using inhumane and internationally prohibited methods of warfare in their punitive operation against its own people”.

            "The headlines of Russian media and its satellite stooges in West are full of “juicy facts”, fabricated to promote this new myth. The numerous sins of the “blood-thirsty” Ukrainian regime include the indiscriminate air-strikes and carpet bombings of civilian populations, armed attacks on vehicles with humanitarian assistance, blocking the evacuation of refugees and internally displaced persons, outrages breaches of the rights of journalists working in the conflict zone, etc. Put simply, Eastern Ukraine is drowning in a humanitarian crisis caused by the inhumane Ukrainian Government."

    •  That would be a fun job (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      killjoy, ER Doc, aimeehs

      Leaving hundreds of postings a day attacking the opposition.  We do that here on DailyKos too, but we don't get paid.  Do you know where I could go to get paid doing that?  Other than Russia, I mean.

      The Stars and Bars and the red swastika banner are both offerings to the same barbaric god.

      by amyzex on Thu Jul 10, 2014 at 11:50:13 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Unfortunately not. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ER Doc

        You might try Sheldon Adelson's or the Koch Brothers' connections though. Those would be some of the first places I'd look if I wanted to be paid for online "activism" and did not care what I was selling or where the money was coming from. I'll bet you that James O'Keefe could REALLY point you in the "right" direction, if you know what I mean...

        -4.75, -5.33 Cheney 10/05/04: "I have not suggested there is a connection between Iraq and 9/11."

        by sunbro on Thu Jul 10, 2014 at 12:14:04 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Here's an American who appears to (0+ / 0-)

        understand whats going on. Apparently not everyone is a Russiaphobe and some people really do see through the media coverup. It's a great song by the way. Very John Lennonesque.

        https://www.youtube.com/...

  •  I think creating those dividing lines, like they (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Azazello, bygorry, cybrestrike, ChadmanFL

    did with Yugoslavia, is part of the plan.  Like in the Middle East, destabilize, weaken, balkanize, create weak, dependent client states.  You know why Obama and his administration aren't condemning it, it's what they wanted.  They need the violence to accomplish their mission. They manufactured it, instigated it, and are guiding it along like the good little imperialists they are. It's all part of a long term agenda to encroach Russia's borders, install military assets in border states, and destabilize Russia.  This is the Grand Chessboard in action.    

    "Fragmented and confused, we have no plan to combat any of this, but are looking to be saved by the very architects of our ruination."

    by BigAlinWashSt on Thu Jul 10, 2014 at 08:39:45 AM PDT

    •  Your someone who truly gets it. (5+ / 0-)

      Thanks for the intelligent insightful comment. Both parties are playing the American public. The sooner people forget their political affiliations the sooner we can help save lives in Ukraine.

      •  There's a strong Neocon presence here (5+ / 0-)

        at Daily Kos. It will do you no good to post anything by Stephen Cohen. They believe that he has been discredited and is not to be believed. They won't believe Robert Parry, Ray McGovern or Jack Matlock either. They all claim to be experts on Russia and Ukraine and will resort to insults when challenged. Good luck with your operation.

        The free market is not the solution, the free market is the problem.

        by Azazello on Thu Jul 10, 2014 at 09:25:10 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I don't mind the challenge (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Azazello, ChadmanFL

          of breaking through the wall of propaganda. The real story is getting out in Europe. The American people have been kept in the dark so they are not entirely to blame. Those that put political party before human lives when responding to this easily verifiable information are truly un American to me and should be confronted with the truth. Check the Good reads forum at democratic Underground. I posted loads of great material proving my case there last night. Peace.

        •  Most of us (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          amyzex, Mark Lippman, sunbro, charlatan

          here are Left liberals and we reject this retrograde Leftish conservatism (with plenty of Rightist tropes) in favor of robber baron Industrial Age Russian empire being brought to this forum.  We aren't fooled, and to quote Adlai Stevenson, we will stop telling the truth about you when you stop lying about us.

          "Good luck with your operation."  Let me suggest that it's time to give up on this forum, you've made all the converts here that you can.  Putin is targeting the reactionary far Right in Europe, the reactionary far Right is where you'll do best among Americans.  

        •  neocon = anyone disagreeing with the Chomsky left. (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          aimeehs, sunbro, charlatan, otto
          •  Not at all. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            protectspice

            Have you not read about them ? They were behind the invasion of Iraq. They had an organization called the Project for a New American Century. One family in particular, the Kagans, are founding members. It's the same folks peddling the same lies and the interventions they promote all have the same results: death, destruction and dislocation. There's always an economic agenda but they never disclose it. You can be sure that it has nothing at all to do with Democracy or national aspirations.

            The free market is not the solution, the free market is the problem.

            by Azazello on Thu Jul 10, 2014 at 04:00:35 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  You're describing real, actual neocons. (5+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              charlatan, otto, jdsnebraska, Azazello, aimeehs

              My comment speaks to the definition of "neocon" as it's come to be among the extreme left, to the point where they tar anyone not in agreement with Chomsky's views on foreign affairs as a "neocon".

              Or go even further and tar anyone opposing Putin's imperialist aims in Ukraine with that label.

              Just because someone opposes Putin's imperialism or disagrees with Chomsky's view that the US is the cause of all the world's ills, does not make one a "neocon" ala Dick Cheney or Bill Krystol or the writers of PNAC.  That is absurd.    

              The President himself opposed W's invasion of Iraq, something which is at the heart of neocon ideology as put into practice.  President Obama's no "neocon", yet he's tarred with that label because he opposes Putin's imperialism and/or disagrees with Chomsky's America-bashing rhetoric.

              •  Your comment has helped me (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                protectspice

                to understand the reasons so many on this site support regime change in Ukraine. I still think that support is misguided, even unconscionable, but now I get where it comes from. I don't understand your fixation on Chomsky and suggest you do some further research. "Putin's imperialism," by the way, is in the same category as "Saddam's WMD."

                The free market is not the solution, the free market is the problem.

                by Azazello on Fri Jul 11, 2014 at 08:28:31 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Putin annexed Crimea just a few months ago. (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  aimeehs, charlatan, jdsnebraska

                  He put in troops who then ram a referendum never recognized by Ukraine, then used the dubious results of that dubious referendum to justify annexing Crimea, without Ukraine's consent.

                  He didn't even bother to compensate Ukraine with cash (like the US bought Alaska from Russia, for example).

                  Putin's imperialism in Ukraine is real.  How can you equate that with the totally fiction of Saddam's WMDs?

                  And by the way, I didn't "support regime change", the Ukrainian people did.  They saw that the guy on power was a Putin lapdog, demonstrated against him, and he responded by ordering his troops to fire machine guns into the demonstrators, killing dozens.  The parliament, including his own party, then voted him out of office.  He was then charged with the murder f demonstrators and further charged with stealing millions from Ukraine's treasury for his own use.  He then fled his own people, into the waiting embrace of his master, Putin.

                  That's why Putin stepped in to annex Crimea, he saw that his lapdog puppet was no longer in power, so he decided on a more direct approach, first annexing Crimea, then trying (and so far, failing) to set of similar circumstances throughout eastern Ukraine so as to set up more dubious referendums to justify annexing the entire eastern half of the country.

                  •  No. (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    protectspice

                    Putin annexed Crimea to keep it from NATO's Ukrainian lapdogs. Crimea has always been Russian since the Russians founded Sebastopol under Catherine the Great. No responsible Russian leader could allow Crimea to be turned over to NATO. NATO expansionism is the issue. And, as always, there are undisclosed economic motives at play. NATO/IMF regime change has nothing to do with Democracy or the national aspirations of the downtrodden Ukrainian people. When neocons fill the airwaves with a campaign to demonize an individual, Saddam, Assad or Putin, that's a sure sign of propaganda.

                    The free market is not the solution, the free market is the problem.

                    by Azazello on Fri Jul 11, 2014 at 09:45:25 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Didn't take long (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Tony Situ, jdsnebraska

                      to get to the rotten core of your belief system. You know someone's world view is fucked when they're actually justifying an annexation in 21st century Europe. LOL.

                      Putin annexed Crimea to keep it from NATO's Ukrainian lapdogs. Crimea has always been Russian since the Russians founded Sebastopol under Catherine the Great. No responsible Russian leader could allow Crimea to be turned over to NATO. NATO expansionism is the issue.
                      This is imperialism defined. This revanchist agitprop is just neocon logic exported to another state. You guys remind me of the hard-line Stalin apologists of the Cold War left ('lapdogs', lol), except now you've abandoned all pretense of an international workers' struggle. You'll prop up any strongman, no matter how vile, as long as he stands in opposition to the West.

                      One can find many territorial claims in Europe -- why not hand Crimea to the Tatars or the Turks? For that matter I'm sure Poland would love to have Lviv back. Europeans have developed supranational institutions to attempt to put these kinds of squabbles behind them, because they've learned the hard way that Putin-style brinksmanship leads to chaos and war.

                      NATO is a voluntary alliance that has several notable but friendly holdouts in Western Europe. Doesn't it speak volumes then that the overwhelming majority of Russia's clients -- most of them now liberal welfare states -- have scrambled to ally with the West? Do you honestly think Russia's revanchism is going win any friends?

                      •  Oh please, you're embarrassing yourself. (0+ / 0-)

                        It has nothing to do with my "belief system" or ideology. I don't give a damn about Russia winning friends. It is about simple fact. The destabilization and regime change in Kiev was a Neocon project. It was the work of the exact same people who brought us Iraq and Syria. Support it if you please, have yourself a lovely Cold War, but stop insulting people who oppose the Neocon agenda.

                        The free market is not the solution, the free market is the problem.

                        by Azazello on Fri Jul 11, 2014 at 02:29:09 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Evidence? (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Azazello
                          The destabilization and regime change in Kiev was a Neocon project. It was the work of the exact same people who brought us Iraq and Syria.
                          •  Google PNAC, Kagan (there are two brothers), (0+ / 0-)

                            and the Kagan wives, one of whom is Victoria Nuland, US Asst. Sec. of State. Here is the infamous speech where she brags that the US had spent $5 billion "assisting" Ukraine. ☛ usembassy.gov

                            Since Ukraine’s independence in 1991, the United States has supported Ukrainians as they build democratic skills and institutions, as they promote civic participation and good governance, all of which are preconditions for Ukraine to achieve its European aspirations. We’ve invested over $5 billion to assist Ukraine in these and other goals that will ensure a secure and prosperous and democratic Ukraine.
                            Here's Alex Kane at Alternet ☛ 5 Neocon "Solutions" ...
                            You can read Robert Parry ☛ Here, Here and Here
                            Here's Ray McGovern ☛ Ukraine: One Regime Change Too Many
                            Here's something about the NED ☛ unz.com
                            Wikipedia has timelines if you're confused about whether Russia's annexation of Crimea was the cause of or a reaction to the Kiev coup. You can look those up yourself.

                            The free market is not the solution, the free market is the problem.

                            by Azazello on Fri Jul 11, 2014 at 04:46:17 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Opinions aren't evidence (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Tony Situ

                            All you've got here are a bunch of insinuations based on $5 billion in financial aid over 23 years. The US has given almost $15 billion to Russia since 2001 and even more than that to a slew of other nations. This fast and loose connect-the-dots stuff is just post-hoc rationalization. It's unfalsifiable and fallacious.

                            You've fallen for the rather facile view that the US secretly orchestrates all major events. Nuland didn't put hundreds of thousands of protesters on the streets during the winter months. She didn't force Yanukovych to deploy snipers. She didn't force the legislature to vote his ass out. Prior to the protests, the US didn't have any major problem with the old regime.

                            If you believe the US cared about Ukraine's tentative EU association agreement enough to topple the government I really can't help you. LOL.

                          •  You don't believe the US controls NATO ? (0+ / 0-)

                            The US/NATO has been trying to get into Ukraine for years. Did you know that they landed US Marines in Crimea in '06 ?
                            They were confronted by crowds of Crimeans who chanted, "No to NATO in Ukraine!"

                            The free market is not the solution, the free market is the problem.

                            by Azazello on Fri Jul 11, 2014 at 05:49:53 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  No, the US doesn't control NATO (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Tony Situ

                            NATO is a voluntary alliance subject to the treaty and to the discretion of its member states. Recall that France once pulled out altogether in protest over the US and UK getting too cozy. The major Euro powers aren't exactly slouches: there are two other nuclear states and several more with sophisticated armed forces and defense industries. It's not 1980 anymore -- good luck forcing France and Germany to do what you want.

                            Joint exercises are unremarkable. NATO also conducts joint exercises with Russia, the last one as late as September 2013. Your argument hinges on Ukraine imminently threatening to join NATO, but (as you pointed out) Ukrainians themselves haven't been keen on the idea, at least not until a couple weeks ago. It hasn't been on the NATO agenda either since the last round of talks in December 2009.

                            Putin has some legitimate gripes with NATO but in no way did the alliance force his hand in Crimea.

                          •  Putin says that why he did it. (0+ / 0-)

                            But you probably know better 'cuz you saw something about Hitler on the History Channel™.

                            The free market is not the solution, the free market is the problem.

                            by Azazello on Sat Jul 12, 2014 at 08:07:07 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  And right on schedule with the insults (0+ / 0-)

                            The conspiracy left is nothing if not predictable -- as soon as someone injects actual information into your fact-free discussions y'all lose your shit.

                            I couldn't possibly have any relevant personal and academic background that might inform my contributions, right? Because you know it all and there's no way anyone who disagrees with you is better informed.

                            Diarist is BOJO and quite possibly mental, yet you're still defending his spamaganda. Talk about embarrassing.

                          •  Not a lot about you (0+ / 0-)

                                 in your profile. Do you write ?

                            The free market is not the solution, the free market is the problem.

                            by Azazello on Sat Jul 12, 2014 at 11:15:14 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Now? No. (0+ / 0-)

                            But I did some grant work in the 90s and met some leading figures in emerging Eastern European politics (missed Vaclav Havel, sadly). Also, half my family is German (my mother is still a German citizen). Like Merkel, one of my uncles spent most of his life in the East. Used to travel a decent amount too for work and family visits before the great recession. Anyway, that's why I get annoyed when people impose these US-centric narratives on everything.

                          •  You seem to know (0+ / 0-)

                            a good deal about this site for someone who has joined so recently. Perhaps you were here before ? No matter, at the top of this thread you can see that the insulting tone began with you, some lame remark about "the rotten core" of my belief system. Not a good way to make friends.

                            The free market is not the solution, the free market is the problem.

                            by Azazello on Sat Jul 12, 2014 at 12:17:22 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Brilliant (0+ / 0-)

                            I've commented several times that I've lurked here off and on since the '08 primary. I know enough about dkos to know you're skating on thin ice with the zombie/sock insinuations.

                            No matter, at the top of this thread you can see that the insulting tone began with you, some lame remark about "the rotten core" of my belief system.
                            Please. You came into this thread with some bullshit about people who disagree with you being 'neocons'. Your apologetics for Putin in this one-and-done shitshow of a propaganda diary are objectively rotten.

                            Why would I want to befriend someone who recs this diary and the even worse one that followed? You're obviously not here in good faith.

          •  Yes, that's "neocon" in quotation marks. (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Tony Situ, aimeehs, charlatan

            To Putin and his allies, "Nazi" is anyone who doesn't want to be dominated by the Kremlin.

            To the far left, "neocon" is anyone in America who disagrees with the notion that the United States of America is the cause of most discord and conflicts around the world.

            -4.75, -5.33 Cheney 10/05/04: "I have not suggested there is a connection between Iraq and 9/11."

            by sunbro on Thu Jul 10, 2014 at 09:35:04 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  I guess I shouldn't be surprised to see some of (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      sunbro

      the Chomsky left support his Kremlin propaganda piece of a diary.  smh

      But look and see that almost none of your high-profile allies are rec'ing this drivel.  It goes too far even for them.

      •  For your info there Tony, I think Chomsky is a (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        protectspice, Azazello

        wimp, don't like Greenwald and think Snowden is part of a psy-op.
        Ever read the Grand Chessboard there Tony?  Ever read the PNAC documents?  Ever read some of the Pentagon planning documents regarding Ukraine.  Ever read the Rand report?  
        Where do you get your news there Tony?  Do you watch and read the mainstream media?  Is that it?  
        Do you know that you say the same things the neocons are saying?  Exactly.  Do you know what FPI, WINEP, and AEI are there Tony?  Ever read some of their stuff, it sounds just like you.   They hate Putin and the Russian propaganda with a vengeance.  They want to take Putin down.  Do you want to take Putin down there Tony?  

        "Fragmented and confused, we have no plan to combat any of this, but are looking to be saved by the very architects of our ruination."

        by BigAlinWashSt on Thu Jul 10, 2014 at 09:28:54 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Haha, so even Chomsky is too moderate for you. (0+ / 0-)

          Wow.

          To answer one of your questions, I never read the PNAC documents, but I know what the are.  "Project of/for/whatever New American Century" papers are the neocons' bible.  That is common knowledge.  Where your crowd goes off the rails is your insistence that President Obama adheres to PNAC doctrine.

          As for your other questions, like 99.999% of Americans, I never heard of those things, let alone read them.  Sounds like CT garbage.  (Oh, maybe those things all exist, but the left-of-Chomsky take on them I can well imagine crosses the line into CT land.)

          •  That explains it fully Tony. You don't read the (0+ / 0-)

            full range of opinions and decide for yourself.  You just chalk it up to CT.  You obviously get your news from the mainstream media.  Are the PNAC documents CT?  If you read them, you'll see the parallels to what is happening today right there in the pages.  You don't have to believe it, it's all part of the puzzle if you want to really try to solve it.  

            "Fragmented and confused, we have no plan to combat any of this, but are looking to be saved by the very architects of our ruination."

            by BigAlinWashSt on Fri Jul 11, 2014 at 10:33:13 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  What fascinates me is your apologism of Putin's (0+ / 0-)

          blatant imperialism in Ukraine, even as you condemn the US based on CT fantasies.  Putin's imperialism in Ukraine is real.  Your crowd's talk of Nuland toppling Ukraine's government with 5 billion dollars of foreign aid over twenty years is CT nonsense.

          Finally, Putin is a leftover from the Cold War era.  Yes, I'd like him replaced with a modern-thinking guy like Medvedev.  Not sure why you support Putin so much, other than his Cold War hostility to the West, which gives Chomskyites the warm and fuzzies (and must make the left-of-Chomsky folks absolutely perform cartwheels of joy).

          •  Like I said Tony, you're saying the same shit the (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Azazello

            neocons are saying about Putin's imperialism.  I gave you the links, did you check them out?  I don't support Putin, you know darn well, at least I hope.  Because I really don't know who I'm talking to, who knows.  
            I focus on U.S./NATO imperialism primarily because it's the worst imperialism and involves my country, my family.  The U.S. started the Ukraine "civil war" by it's illegal regime change activities.  Simple as that Tony.  
            The neocon agenda is clearly in play.  
            You never answer any questions Tony, like what do you think that 5 billion was for?  And do you think Nuland's agenda is different from her husband's?    

            "Fragmented and confused, we have no plan to combat any of this, but are looking to be saved by the very architects of our ruination."

            by BigAlinWashSt on Fri Jul 11, 2014 at 10:29:02 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Oh wait, I see you said you never read the PNAC (0+ / 0-)

            documents.  Where do you get your information Tony?

            "Fragmented and confused, we have no plan to combat any of this, but are looking to be saved by the very architects of our ruination."

            by BigAlinWashSt on Fri Jul 11, 2014 at 10:29:48 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I said I haven't read PNAC directly, but know what (0+ / 0-)

              they are.  Just like I haven't read Mein Kampf directly, but know what it is.

              And there you go outing more Kremlin propaganda and CT.
              Your nearly every comment on this thread acts as apologist for Putin's actions.  I think you're stick in the Cold War just like Putin is.

              •  Well, a little different. The PNAC documents (0+ / 0-)

                aren't very long, in fact, if you just read the Wikipedia version you'll probably get the gist.  
                But if you haven't read this type of stuff Tony, that says something too.  You just discard it as CT.
                So it again brings up the question, where do you get your information?  Do you actually watch the television?  Read the NY Times, Wash Post, etc.?   If that's the only information you're receiving, then you might want to expand it a bit.  I read both sides, like I linked the neocon web sites.  I even read what the mainstream media is selling.  

                "Fragmented and confused, we have no plan to combat any of this, but are looking to be saved by the very architects of our ruination."

                by BigAlinWashSt on Fri Jul 11, 2014 at 10:59:32 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

      •  Here's a good one Tony, from the neocons. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        protectspice, Azazello

        You know what FPI is right?  You know it's the successor thinktank to PNAC, same people same agenda, just the name was changed.  They certainly agree with you about Putin and how he caused all the problems in Ukraine.

        http://www.foreignpolicyi.org/...

        "Fragmented and confused, we have no plan to combat any of this, but are looking to be saved by the very architects of our ruination."

        by BigAlinWashSt on Thu Jul 10, 2014 at 09:46:58 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Here's some good stuff too Tony. From AEI. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        protectspice

        Another neocon thinktank, same cast of characters.  This is their Ukraine and Putin/Russia page.  Fascinating stuff.  
        I actually do read these sites fairly regularly Tony, just so I know what the neocons are saying and proposing.  

        http://www.aei.org/...

        "Fragmented and confused, we have no plan to combat any of this, but are looking to be saved by the very architects of our ruination."

        by BigAlinWashSt on Thu Jul 10, 2014 at 09:49:59 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Sweet marinated FSM, people! (6+ / 0-)

    There's no bullshit some people won't swallow as long as it attacks the POTUS.

    "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

    by raptavio on Thu Jul 10, 2014 at 09:30:08 AM PDT

  •  Ukraine Vows To Punish Rebels Who Downed Plane (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    killjoy, amyzex, sunbro, charlatan
    This incident explains the actions of the newly elected government against the separatists in eastern Ukraine.

    http://www.npr.org/...

    Information posted on the website of the German Foreign Minister documents the events in Kyiv that led to Yanukovych's replacement.
    2/19/2014
    In view of the situation which has developed in Ukraine, Foreign Minister Steinmeier is planning to travel to Kyiv tomorrow morning (20 February), alongside his opposite numbers from Poland and France, Radosław Sikorski and Laurent Fabius.

    http://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/...

    2/21/2014
    The Foreign Ministers of France, Germany and Poland welcome the signing of the agreement on the Settlement of the crisis in Ukraine, commend the parties for their courage and commitment to the agreement and call for an immediate end to all violence and confrontation in Ukraine.

    http://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/...

    The agreement
    1. Within 48 hours of the signing of this agreement, a special law will be adopted, signed and promulgated, which will restore the Constitution of 2004 including amendments passed until now. Signatories declare their intention to create a coalition and form a national unity government within 10 days thereafter.

    http://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/...  

    The agreement was signed by:
    Viktor Yanukovych, President of Ukraine
    Vitaliy Klichko, UDAR  
    Oleh Tyahnibok, Svoboda  
    Arsenij Yatseniuk, Batkivshchyna  
    Radoslaw Sikorski, Poland
    Frank-Walter Steinmeier, Germany
    Laurent Fabius, France
    Vladimir Lukin, Russia
    Other documents pertaining to the matter are archived by Steinmeier at:

    http://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/...

    Yanukovych promptly fled the country after signing the agreement. In public statements he released in the following days, he made it clear he had no intention of adhering to its terms.

    The Ukrainian Parliament was obligated to appoint a temporary government since Yanukovych abandoned his office. 331 of 450 members (or 74%) voted in favor, including 58 members of Yanukovych's own party.

    http://w1.c1.rada.gov.ua/...

    Party of Regions 58
    Batkivshchyna 82
    Independent 51
    UDAR 40
    SEU 34
    Svoboda 36
    ED 30
    Total 331
    In the aftermath, Russia annexed Crimea, which was part of Ukrainian territory.

    A referendum was held in Crimea to lend the annexation some legitimacy but the Venice Commission of the Council of Europe found the Crimea referendum to be illegal.

    http://www.venice.coe.int/...

    A couple of weeks later, the Council of Europe suspended the Russian delegation to the organization over Crimea.

    https://wcd.coe.int/...

    http://www.theguardian.com/...

    Further reading on Moscow's alliance with the rising far-right extremist neo-fascist political parties throughout Europe.

    A Partner for Russia': Europe's Far Right Flirts with Moscow from Der Spiegel.

    Putin and the European Right from Slate

    Decrying Ukraine’s ‘Fascists,’ Putin Is Allying With Europe’s Far Right from The Nation

    Russia counts on EU ‘friends’ to avert further sanctions from Euractiv

    •  Check out this newRight Sector coup democracy! (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ChadmanFL

      This Oleg Lyashko commander of the Right Sector Azov battalion showing the new version of Ukrainian justice to a captive prisoner. He promises imprisonment and death to a 62 year old man. And they are even stupid enough to film it. What other idiots will our CIA jump in bed with next?

      http://youtu.be/...

      •  Russian human rights activist, Tanya Lokshina, (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        sunbro

        writing from Luhansk, July 5, 2014.

        The ugliness of war makes getting at the truth no easy matter. In the fighting in eastern Ukraine, the pro-Ukraine media is blaming all abuses on anti-Kiev insurgents and pro-Russia media is demonizing Ukrainian government forces. The intense information war, with the media and social networks spewing all sorts of horrific myths and falsehoods, has buried rather than clarified the truth in a calculated attempt to prove that this side is righteous and that side is evil.
        http://www.hrw.org/...
  •  well, I'm glad that's/settled.. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sunbro, peregrine kate

    decent wages don't eliminate jobs. Republicans eliminate jobs; and workers, and prospects, and then excuse it all and call for more austerity. there is no end to their ignorant, arrogant avarice. only political dinosaurs support their treachery.

    by renzo capetti on Thu Jul 10, 2014 at 10:07:33 AM PDT

  •  Welcome new user. (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TomP, killjoy, amyzex, sunbro
    Follow

    Mojo:

    UID: 1051326

    Joined: Jul 10, 2014

    Operation Mindcrime's

    Most of the people taking a hard line against us are firmly convinced that they are the last defenders of civilization... The last stronghold of mother, God, home and apple pie and they're full of shit! David Crosby, Journey Thru the Past.

    by Mike S on Thu Jul 10, 2014 at 10:24:09 AM PDT

  •  A far wiser perspective on Ukraine- (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sunbro, aimeehs

    http://www.nybooks.com/...

    "Ukraine is where the battle for influence has been joined between the demoralized democracies of the West and the rising authoritarian archipelago of the East. If Ukraine is not allowed to choose its own democratic path, some of the states that border Russia, and especially those with Russian-speaking minorities, will also be prevented from doing so.

    "The conflict between authoritarianism and democracy is not a new cold war, we are told, because the new authoritarians lack an expansionary ideology like communism. This is not true. Communism may be over as an economic system, but as a model of state domination it is very much alive in the People’s Republic of China and in Putin’s police state.

    "Nor does this new authoritarianism lack an economic strategy. Its goal is a familiar form of modernization that secures the benefits of global integration without sacrificing political and ideological control over its populations. Its economic model is price-fixing state capitalism and its legal system is rule by (often corrupt) fiat in place of the rule of law. Its ethics rejects moral universalism in favor of a claim that the Chinese and Russian civilizations are self-contained moral worlds. Persecution of gays, therefore, is not some passing excess, but is intrinsic to their vision of themselves as bulwarks against Western individualism."

  •  Second shrill pro-Kremlin diary in a week (7+ / 0-)

    If you folks want to be successful at this you might begin by not making it so obvious you're parroting the line of the day. I'm sure I'm not the only one here who occasionally checks in on Russian state-run media.

    Anyway, your line here is bogus. As life gets back to normal in Slovyansk it's becoming quite clear people were happy to see the Russian mercs go. The promised atrocities and large-scale destruction were figments of a fevered imagination.

  •  Why? (0+ / 0-)

    Hypocrisy.

    "When dealing with terrorism, civil and human rights are not applicable." Egyptian military spokesman.

    by Paleo on Thu Jul 10, 2014 at 12:13:38 PM PDT

  •  the russian prawns in the east (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sunbro

    are fleeing all the cities they used to hold. And the evil Ukrainian Nazi military dares to bring in bread and fix the water supplies in those cities they retake.

    This whole separatist fiasco has managed to united the the whole of Ukraine against Russian provocation.

  •  LOL, I skimmed this and saw "rt.com" cited. lol (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    aimeehs, sunbro, kalmoth
  •  pardon my vernacular.... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    otto

    but what the fuck is this shit?

    Hide-rated.

  •  Good to see the smart subscribers of Daily Kos... (0+ / 0-)

    ....recognizing Pure Kremlin Lies when they see it.  The paid propagandist here is of course getting demolished in the comments section.  Of course, it's not just Obama who is supporting the Will of the People in the Sovereign Country of Ukraine- and the right of said Sovereign Country to defend itself against Invaders like Russians Aleksandr Borodai, Igor Girkin, the Chechen Mercenaries of the Vostok Battalion, and the Kremlin-paid mercenary enemies of the state in the Donbass.  And against the PURE STEALING BY FORCE of Sovereign Ukrainian Territory by Putin in Crimea.  Of course, it's also Germany.  And France.  And England.  And Poland.  And the rest of Central and Western Europe.  Putin is driving former Soviet countries into the arms of the West.  Putin can count his friends on one hand at this point...with a thumb chopped off by his thugs.  Syria.  Iran.  Venezuela.  Cuba.  Nice group of buddies Putin has there, eh?  Much as you would like to make this JUST about the U.S., Bubbe - it ain't.  It's the entire civilized world, Oleg.  And everyone knows it.  You wasted your time with this post.  But.....I guess you get paid to waste your time posting manure, eh?

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