Following comes about as a result of a very interesting conversation I have been having, online, elsewhere, regarding HB-2.
To put this into context, I will begin by sharing that the issue at had being discussed was “How does one deal with a man up to no good pretending to be trans in order to gain access to women’s spaces?”
ME: The truth is it is easier than you think.
When I first transitioned, in 1997...I had a letter from my STATE-LICENSED THERAPIST...stating I was in treatment for Gender Identity Disorder. This letter was to be shown to any law enforcement officer on legal request.
This was in keeping with the Benjamin Standards of Care, developed by HBIGDA, the Harry Benjamin International Gender Dysphoria Association. This was the standard of care when I transitioned.
Today, HBIGDA has been replaced by WPATH (The World Professional Association for Transgender Health) and the standards and protocols for treatment used by WPATH are based on the original protocols developed by HBIGDA.
Now...here is where we get to men pretending to be trans...
They would not have such a letter. They would not have a STATE-LICENSED DOCTOR OR THERAPIST TO VOUCH FOR THEM.
So you charge The Pretender with criminal trespass...and any other crime they may have committed in the restroom. The Prosecutor can easily get an expert witness (a therapist who treats transgender people, for example) who will testify that the individual displays none of the characteristics of a transgender person, physically or mentally. That they are not known to be in any sort of treatment related to Gender Dysphoria or Gender Identity Disorder.
The Pretender gets convicted, sentenced to a very long time in prison, and must register as a sex offender.
Why is this so difficult? Seriously?
HIM: Good start on a solution. From our discussions in the past is it fair to say that you have gone about as far in the transgender process as one can go? Is there any reason you should not be considered a woman in every reasonable regard? If the answer to that is yes....is there a point in the transition process where the answer should be no...or maybe not yet?
I think the people in the 'maybe not yet category' is the group that causes the most concern. I will come back to them later. Let's start with where you were in 1997, is it reasonable that if we were rewriting legislation to deal with the current NC HR-2 that a simple safety net for transpeople would be the letter your are describing. I'm not going to go so far as to say it should be added (except at your request) to your drivers ID, but there should be some method where it could be coded into your ID so that only law enforcement could see it.(I will explain why in a minuet) I suggest this to address one of the early things you said about your fear of being arrested and thrown into the male wing of the jail.
To your knowledge if you were stopped in a NC restroom do you think the letter would be honored by law enforcement....or would you be safer to go straight to your revised birth certificate? Should the revised law (HR-2) have a provision that you could submit your letter to the state (maybe the state human rights agency, if NC has one) and they could issue a verification card that would prevent your arrest by law enforcement for being in a restroom not matching your gender at birth. (no need for a modified birth certificate that you said is hard to get in some states) This is not so much a problem with you today, but it could be a problem for others..
I say all this to agree with your point that this would go a long way toward defeating the argument about men posing as women to attack little children in restrooms. No letter or card, or coding on your driver's ID and you are headed to an appearance before a Judge. That strikes me as fair to all sides of this issue.
I think the revision of HR-2 should include a provision that any law enforcement agency that jails a transperson improperly relative to agreed upon rules would automatically face a fine of $25K, for the first day and 10K for every day thereafter. no lawyer or lawsuit required to collect. The reason for the coding within the law enforcement ID system is to remove any possible excuse that anyone could claim they did no know.
The simple solution would be to designate certain cells as gender neutral because it would be hard to mess that up no matter what stage of transition the person may be in. (The law could be simple, drunk or sober if there is the slightest question about the gender status of someone that is arrested they should go into a gender neutral cell until a judge rules where they should be held. The high fines are in place to deal with the rare jackass that might want to play games because they are bored or negligent with their job.
My next step is to actually print out the NC law and start to see exactly where the current language needs to be improved. Because of your appearance in the Press have you been contacted by anyone in the state legislature expressing any interest in making modifications to this law?
Thanks for the information about your letter, if you think that is something any serious transgender person can get then I think that is a key to start to resolve this issue.
I realize this looks very close to a transgender person needing to prove themselves innocent...but this is something that needs to be taken a step at a time. As you said everyone needs to feel safe when going to the restroom....that is the primary objective for everyone involved with this issue.
It's going to take some more work to address locker rooms because they are all a little different in their design and levels of privacy. For now I want to focus on restrooms.
Now that the context is established, here is my reply to this…
Let me first state, before I get into your specifics...the basic problem I have with North Carolina's law is that the Birth Certificate is THE ONLY FORM OF ID THAT IS ACCEPTABLE. A driver's license is not and neither is a Passport!
I was post-surgical for THIRTEEN YEARS before I went about getting my birth certificate changed...and for reasons totally unrelated to HB-2. The timing was just fortuitous...I started the process before Charlotte even passed their Ordinance...because my Congressman, George Holding (R, NC-13)...had indicated to me that The Healthcare Marketplace wanted me to prove my citizenship...which was not actually correct, they only had needed me to verify I was no longer eligible for Medicare (I had been on disability beginning in 2006 and lasting until 2013 when I launched my business) My Medicare eligibility ran out at the end of 2015...and I sent them the letter several times...they kept claiming they never got it...which is when I enlisted George Holding's help, in his capacity as my Congresscritter.
Anyway...how does one prove citizenship, normally?? WITH A BIRTH CERTIFICATE!! And mine might as well have been for a totally different person, since it was still in my old name and my former male gender!
Under the assumption I needed to prove my citizenship, I set about the process with the State of Illinois (where I was born) to get the certificate changed as per state law. I got the documents TWO WEEKS BEFORE HB-2 WAS PASSED!!
Now...here is the thing...if I had not done this... I WOULD RIGHT NOW BE LEGALLY FORCED INTO MEN'S RESTROOMS...EVEN THOUGH I DO NOT HAVE MALE ANATOMY, AND HAVEN'T FOR NEARLY FOURTEEN YEARS!!
And my driver's license has said "female" since 1997!!
I actually had the final surgery in 2002, in Bangkok, Thailand (because mine was overseas, I had a different set of procedures I had to follow to comply with Illinois Law...versus if I had had it done in the US)
My argument says a driver's license should suffice...after all, if it is issued by North Carolina...as mine is...and it says "female" then the State recognizes me as female...so why should I be forced into men's restrooms...just because my birth certificate had not been updated? Mine is...but if not for the trouble with The Healthcare Marketplace, mine would not have been!
Additionally, there are different requirements in different states with regards to changing birth certificates...see this map here:
www.lgbtmap.org/...
As you can see, there are THREE states when you cannot get your birth certificate changed...EVER.
Tennessee is the only one that does this by statute...in the case of Ohio and Idaho...they have procedural problems known to make it impossible to get them changed.
So HB-2 treats similarly-situated people (post-op transgender people) in a disparate manner based solely upon the state in which they were born...an immutable characteristic. That alone makes the law unconstitutional.
The problems do not end there.
In seven states (WA, CA, OR, NY, VT, RI and DC) - okay six states plus DC...one is NOT EVEN REQUIRED TO HAVE SURGERY BEFORE THE BIRTH CERTIFICATE CAN BE CHANGED.
Twenty-five states (NC and my own birth state of Illinois among them) will issue a new birth certificate upon completion of surgery, although the process of getting that done varies from state to state...and different proofs are required. In my case, I had to supply Illinois with a sworn affadavit from my current physician, notarized...and a copy of my legal name change documents from Jefferson County, Kentucky...where I had that done. The original birth certificate is then sealed.
So at this point the only birth record obtainable from Illinois on me is in my correct female name and gender (but I actually possess a copy of the old one, LOL)
The remaining sixteen states will issue AMENDED birth certificates...and the law, HB-2 does not address what it does with AMENDED birth certificates, either...in most cases, these AMENDED ones...are very obviously amended...and so the question remains if THEY can use facilities according to the gender on their AMENDED certificate...or if they must use according to the ORIGINAL certificate.
You see, I am very lucky to have been born in Illinois!
Again, I argue that if I have a state-issued drivers license...that means the issuing state officially recognizes me as female...therefore, by the Interstate Commerce Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment...all other states MUST do likewise. Additionally, if I have a Passport that declares me to be female (and one needn't get surgery to get the gender changed on a Passport, I might add) - then THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT recognizes me as female...thus no matter what my birth certificate says, I should be using female restrooms...and since the Federal Government would be recognizing me as female...then, by extension, all states must, as well. But HB-2 does not allow for this...and it is MY contention this is a violation of the Fourteenth Amendment.
NOW that I have gotten all that in there...time to address your actual post..
Since I am near fourteen years post-op...yes I should be legally considered a woman...and since I have a birth certificate NOW that says I am female, I am legally recognized, even for the purposes of HB-2 - as female.
But I would argue I have LEGALLY been a woman since 1997 when Pennsylvania changed my driver's license and officially recognized me female. That later carried with me when I moved to Kentucky, then to Texas, then back to Pennsylvania, and then to North Carolina...all the while, my birth certificate just mellowed away saying something very different.
EVEN NORTH CAROLINA RECOGNIZED ME LEGALLY FEMALE...WITHOUT A BIRTH CERTIFICATE...WHEN THEY ISSUED ME A DRIVER'S LICENSE SO STATING THAT I WAS FEMALE.
Now...I COULD go further in that there are other surgeries I COULD have, such as more facial feminization surgeries, breast augmentation, etc...but I have had the bottom surgery done and no longer have the male appendage. And thank Goddess for that! But, no, there is no earthly reason why I should not be considered female. And, in fact, by the letter of the law, HB-2 does not negatively impact ME at all. In fact, it REQUIRES me to use ladies restrooms...which is perfectly fine with me, that is where I would rather be anyway.
You see, this fight IS NOT ABOUT ME. It is about my pre-op brothers and sisters...who are now where I was in 1997. It is about the fact that others who came before me...stood for me and fought for me...when I could not fight for myself. And now it is my turn.
I will not turn my back on them. They are my family. Family in a way my own flesh and blood cannot be...and they are as precious to me as anyone else's family is to them. I stand for them now BECAUSE I CAN.
We are family of shared experience and shared suffering.
WE HAVE BEEN THROUGH THE CRUCIBLE TOGETHER!!
I will fight for my family. To the death if I must. I will stand to make sure they are safe. That is all I care about...their safety. And as it stands right now, HB-2 DOES NOT ADDRESS THE SAFETY OF TRANSGENDER PEOPLE.
In my case...to answer another question...I carry a copy of the birth certificate on my person at all times. The original is in my safe deposit box where it belongs. I scanned it into my computer and printed a copy.
I think the letter [see above box quote #1] WOULD be accepted by any law-enforcement officer, so long as they knew that letter was the legal requirement. And worst case, a call downtown could confirm it...and since the therapist's license number would be on the letter...one could confirm this was an actual licensed therapist and even contact that therapist directly to confirm the authenticity of the letter. It poses an undue inconvenience of time and hassle to a transgender person, but that is at least better than forcing them into the gendered restroom they are demonstrable most unsafe in.
NO...NO AND HELL NO...I am totally against the idea of submitting said letter to a State agency in exchange for a state-issued card, because I do not want to have the state making an official registry of transgender people! Makes it all that much easier to round us all up when they re-open the concentration camps...and I think if some in this country get their way, that is where we are headed.
I say the letter itself is sufficient...since it will list the therapists State License number...which can be verified...and the therapist can even be contacted to personally vouch for the transperson, if there is any question. Besides...the putative state card you propose...could easily be forged by a pretender...and we are back to square one. No, I prefer a letter with a license number of a state-licensed therapist.
I like your idea of a fine to the law enforcement agency for improperly treating a transgender person...but the fine should be awarded DIRECTLY TO THE TRANSGENDER PERSON WRONGED.
I have met with several legislators concerning my idea regarding HB-2...some of whom are people who originally voted FOR HB-2...who have been receptive to my ideas...not everyone in Raleigh is a bigot...some are just uninformed...and when informed in a graceful, dignified and intelligent manner...have proved to be receptive. Others who opposed HB-2 have taken my ideas as a backup position, but are continuing to push for full repeal. A coupe of legislators I met with were absent on March 23, when the vote was done...most notably Rep. Charles Jeter...who is possibly the ONLY Republican in either Chamber of the NC Legislature who is actually pro-LGBT rights. Jeter was very receptive to my ideas, but doubted that there would be any reception to the ideas in the full House or Senate.
Senator Jim Davis' office was one of my best visits. I met with his Legislative Assistant...while the Senator himself was in the next room working against a deadline on another issue. I got a very nice email from the LA the next day, remarking on the grace, dignity and intelligence with which I had presented myself.
In fact, here is a copy of that email:
Dear Angela,
I appreciate your kind message. I am thankful for the conversation we had yesterday and have reflected much on it since.
I cannot begin to imagine the difficulties, pain, and fear life has surely handed you.
You carried yourself into our office with grace, and respectfully shared your concerns.
Although Senator Davis was working against a deadline, he could hear portions of our conversation and remarked on the dignity with which you offered your thoughts and experiences.
It is so much easier to HEAR a message when it is delivered in such a way. In the six years I have worked in the Legislature, a conversation such as ours has been the rare exception during times involving such divisive issues.
As I shared yesterday, I believe the transgendered have been "hijacked" to forward a political agenda. How Charlotte's ordinance -- giving legal cover for an individual up to no good to enter a women's shower for purposes of pleasuring himself -- became an issue about transgendered eludes me.
Again, I am thankful for the time we had to talk. Perhaps we can find an opportunity to visit again. I have much to learn.
Kind regards, Kaye
Kaye Culberson
Legislative Assistant
Senator Jim Davis
NC District 50
Now, as I later explained in a n email back to this lady...Charlotte's Ordinance WAS NOT about giving legal cover to an individual up to no good. The language may have been poorly written such that it could have been interpreted that way...but it certainly was not the INTENT of the Ordinance. And if North Carolina had a problem with that language..then they could have simply gotten a court injunction against the Ordinance...and then sat down with Mayor Roberts and the Charlotte City Council to work on the concerns with the language the State had. and then allowed an Amended Ordinance to go forward in Charlotte.
That would have been the correct procedure - if it WASN'T about harming transgender people. If it REALLY WAS about the stated issue, then THAT would have been the correct procedure.
As to the letter a trans person carries...yes, it DOES basically place a trans person in a position of guilty till proved innocent...but innocence can be quickly established. It is not a perfect solution, but we DO live in an imperfect world...and MY primary concern is the safety of my sisters and brothers who are transgender.
As to showers and locker rooms...I can assure you pre-ops don't want to go there. They MOST DEFINITELY do not want to be themselves seen. The only reason it is an issue in the GG vs Gloucester case is because schools often FORCE phys. ed. classes...and FORCE students into communal showers. and if they are gonna be forced into a shower they don't REALLY want to be in at all...then surely they would choose the one they would be more likely to be safe in.
So why not simply give trans teens a medical exception for phys. ed? Or give them an exception to having to shower at all? Or set up a separate one-person shower?
I, myself, luckily got a medical exception for phys ed myself...but not because of my transgender status...in my case it was because I had a hernia. So I worked as an office assistant to earn my PE credits. And they made sure I got my exercise...my job was to walk all eight wings (two floors) of the school plus the outside portable buildings...to collect all the attendance cards. I walked about three miles totally to do this, and it took me most of an hour.
So there ARE ways this can be dealt with. Now, in MY case...being fully post-op...there is no reason I should not be okay to be in a women's shower...if I wanted to be there...which I don't. I have carryover...to this day I am not comfortable with a public-shower situation. Not even in my own gender shower. And I am far from alone amongst trans people in this.
When I go to the gym...I arrive in my workout gear and leave in it, too. I change and shower at home, in private. The only time I have been in the shower/locker area at my gym was when I was getting the tour when I first joined. And I was taken right into the women's with no questions. And hen HB-2 passed, I brought up my concerns to the staff...after all, I DO sometimes have to use the potty...even at the gym. I was told...no worries, we know about your status...we have your back. And we don't think you will even have any questions....we really ARE a judgment-free zone. And they were right, I never have had any problem. But it was reassuring to me to know the staff would have my back if there ever WAS any problem. And since I mentioned "judgment-free zone" you might have figured out I belong to Planet Fitness.
Anyway, this is FAR LONGER than I intended. So I'll cut it here as I think I have answered everything you brought up! And thanks for asking intelligent questions in a compassionate manner. I never mind educating people who truly want to learn.