I agree about how Clinton’s name recognition is the driving force behind her popularity in Dem circles, I don’t think that much has really changed today:
Hillary has the early lead based on name ID. But the more voters realize there are alternatives, the more they'll stray from Hillary. Since she has no room to grow (her negatives are huge), she has but one way to go -- down. And as she erodes support, and as other candidates gain on her, her support will crash as her cobbled-together old-school coalition turns on itself.
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I also agree that Clinton was out of touch and I think taking a stand that we should not be promoting failure is solid advice:
Not only is the Clinton campaign pig-headed, they are also remarkably out-of-touch. They are "surprised" at the anger this war is generating? Has she been living in a cave the last four years (yes, the Senate apparently is a cave). The last thing we need in the White House is another out-of-touch, tone-deaf Bush-style presidency, unable or unwilling to admit mistakes and change course as a result.
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Clinton cast a vote that has led to one of the biggest foreign policy disasters in this nation's history -- a vote that even cursory skepticism would've counseled against.
Most of the presidential candidates have gotten the "I fracked up the vote" stuff out of the way last year. It's not the most compelling tack to take -- if their judgment was so poor as to vote for the darn thing, why should we promote them. We talk about DC being a place where people fail upward. Do we really want to encourage that within our own party?
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I agree with the good point made here. People forget that the Iraq vote was followed up with an Iran vote which was just as bad. And I agree that it should be cause for great concern.
Clinton didn't just vote for the Iraq war and refuse to apologize for it, she voted to give Bush the same authority on Iran.
And if we want to talk about which party is the most grassroots-oriented, it's no contest. We've seen it in the caucuses, we've seen it in the netroots, and we saw it in the Iowa county convention this Saturday. The party's activists are busting their butts for Obama, while Clinton's campaign is counting on low-information Democratic voters selecting Clinton based on little more than name ID.
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She really didn't learn her lesson the first time. Is she seriously claiming that this resolution was really needed to "lay the groundwork for using diplomacy and sanctions"? What, was Condi Rice (remember her?) hamstrung on her ability to conduct diplomacy without Congress giving her the thumbs up?
Does she think her audience is that stupid? Apparently so.
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Hillary made mistakes, the biggest being her Iran vote -- suddenly telegraphing to everyone that she had not, in fact, learned her lesson from the Iraq debacle.
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I also fully agree with the idea that the only way to put pressure on representatives who are not living up to their promises is to let them know that their position can be challenged. I think that goes for presidents as well as congress and senate seats. Sort of like when Obama was threatened with a challenge…..
Well, we have one tool at our disposal, our only way to influence the behavior of our elected officials:
We can primary them.
…Let me say this is no uncertain terms -- our ONLY ability to influence the Democratic caucus in Washington D.C. rests in our ability to defeat them in their primaries next year. No other elections are more important for purposes of our movement (as opposed to the nation as a whole) than these two. If Dan Lipinski and Al Wynn hold on, it will tell other Democrats that they have little to fear from us. If we defeat them, it will put the entire caucus on notice that we can and will target them if they lose touch
You want better Democrats? Then get involved. You want leverage against the other Democrats? Then get involved. The alternative is more of the hell we've suffered this year -- timid but safe congressmen and senators who'd rather capitulate rather than fulfill campaign promises.
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I agree with this great point about how much trouble Clinton will have bringing over Independents- the key to victory. I don’t think this point has fundamentally changed.
Other than a statistically insignificant number of dead-ender malcontents, those undecided Democrats aren't going to vote for McCain.
Again, more evidence that Obama's upside is much stronger than Clinton's. It'll be far easier for Obama to rally the Democratic base than for Clinton to rally independents.
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And I agree that this final note is a pretty good summary of how many feel about Clinton,
In one of the threads last night, commenter theran made a good observation:
At some point the concept of "Republicans will do X" has turned into a license for Hillary to do all the same things. It's bizarre, but I don't really consider her a Dem any more.
Yup.
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Now I realize that these were different times, but we are still talking about the same person are we not? Nothing raised in these posts was wrong, or considered unacceptable. In fact it led to some interesting debates and resulted in lots of people doing more research on the candidates and the issues.
I joined this place in 2008 in part because it was one of the only places were alternative views WITHIN the democratic community were being aired. Electing BETTER democrats was an amazing stand to take but the best thing about this site was that it lived up to that slogan. Progressive candidates and ideas were given space, while establishment characters had their feet held to the fire to ensure that they stayed aware and responsive to more than just the money.
I am not a fan of Clinton and frankly I remain a bit stunned that she remains a viable presidential candidate for any democrat based on her history. However since it looks like she is the most likely to come through as the nominee, more than any candidate I can remember I think she needs to have strong unrelenting pressure from the left.
I would love to see her get to the convention and have some 30-40% of the floor pushing her. Make it clear that she needs to rethink her positions and adopt things that are going to be uncomfortable for many of her financial backers or face an embarrassing and devastating loss in the general. Somehow she needs to get all (or at least most) of the enthusiasm from the progressive opposition over to her side. Right now, I just don’t see it.
Close down the debate and let her sail in without pressure and I think you rolling dangerous dice, That is how you create tone deaf out of touch candidates, as well as apathetic democratic voters.
So there it is. To me all these quotes are representative of a fair critic and open debate that I have come to expect from this site. I hope that after the 15th we can also continue to have the same kind of arguments — from all sides. No crazy CTs, just an honest reflection of statements, actions, policy views. And please lets not be afraid to let some hot headed opinions into the mix, a little spice can work wonders.