Daily Kos

Sunstein Wildly Wrong on Warrantless Wiretaps; Kerr Clarifies: No Monarchy

Tue Dec 27, 2005 at 08:22:59 AM PDT

I have been incredibly hard on University of Chicago Law Professor Cass Sunstein, and with good reason. His performance on Hugh Hewitt's radio show was horrible:

HH: Do you consider the quality of the media coverage here to be good, bad, or in between?

CS: Pretty bad, and I think the reason is we're seeing a kind of libertarian panic a little bit, where what seems at first glance...this might be proved wrong...but where what seems at first glance a pretty modest program is being described as a kind of universal wiretapping, and also being described as depending on a wild claim of presidential authority, which the president, to his credit, has not made any such wild claim. The claims are actually fairly modest, and not unconventional. So the problem with what we've seen from the media is treating this as much more peculiar, and much larger than it actually is.

Forget how wrong Sunstein is on the law, which I detailed in my linked post (and it is not just that Sunstein is wrong, it is that he virtually ignores the central issue here - the Congressional prohibition against that which the President has done and is doing). Look at how he smears and distorts those who disagree with him as being in "a libertarian panic." Look at how he misstates the President's claim of power - labelling it "fairly modest" when in fact it is sweeping. Indeed, it is the very claim of power rejected by the Supreme Court in Youngstown and Hamdi.

Professor Orin Kerr, who I wrote about previously, understands this and clarifies a muddled point:

I read Daily Kos only occasionally, so I just came across the post "A Little Bit of Monarchy" by Armando on the NSA surveillance program that includes some criticism of my long post last week. Armando's post is a week old, but the Daily Kos gets a jazillion readers, so I thought I would respond and explain Armando's misunderstanding. (Plus, I believe Charles Krauthammer may have had the same misunderstanding, so maybe it's a widespread misconception.)

. . . In my post, I argued that the monitoring probably didn't violate the Constitution (and in particular, the Fourth Amendment), but that it probably did violate FISA. This doesn't mean that the monitoring was legal; it only means that of the two possible grounds that it could be illegal, I think it was probably illegal on one ground but not the other ground.

The distinction is a little tricky in this context because some are arguing that Article II renders FISA unconstitutional in some ways. But when I said that the monitoring was probably constitutional, I only meant that the monitoring probably didn't violate the Fourth Amendment; I didn't mean that the Constitution invalidates a statute that makes the monitoring illegal. As Armando notes, I rejected that argument. . . .

Kerr understands what the issues are. Sunstein does not apparently. I'll discuss more Sunstein misunderstandings below the fold.

  • ::
It appears that Sunstein is quite dismissive of Congressional power on matters military. In early 2002, a debate was raging about the President's power to stablish military tribunals for the prosecution of the perpetrators of the 9/11 terrorist attacks. This is what Sunstein wrote on the issue:

Under existing law, President George W. Bush has the legal authority to use military commissions to try certain suspected terrorists for violations of the law of war. In arguing otherwise, George P. Fletcher makes numerous blunders ["War and the Constitution," January 1-14, 2002]. The key decision is Ex parte Quirin (1942), in which the Supreme Court upheld President Roosevelt's decision to use military commissions to try German saboteurs who had landed on Long Island. The Court concluded that Congress had authorized use of commissions to try violations of the law of war. The Court held that the saboteurs had violated that law, and hence were "unlawful combatants," because they entered the country secretly, without uniform, and with the intent to destroy property. The Court emphasized that unlawful combatants could be treated differently from ordinary soldiers operating in uniform pursuant to an ordinary chain of command.

. . . After these cases, President Bush's choice stands on firm legal ground insofar as he seeks to use military commissions to try people who planned and participated in the September 11 attacks (and similar actions). The congressional authorization found sufficient in Quirin is the same law invoked in Bush's order. In rejecting this conclusion, Fletcher misdescribes the law.

Compare that to Professor Laurence Tribe's statement:

George P. Fletcher attacks a phantom of his own making when he accuses me of wrongly defending the president's order directing the use of military tribunals to prosecute suspected terrorists. That's a peculiar accusation, given the unambiguous conclusion of my Senate testimony that the order is unconstitutional on its face for a wide variety of reasons. Professor Fletcher offers no dissent to my view that "such tribunals may [nonetheless] be justifiable in extremely limited circumstances in which, among other things, the laws of war have been violated." Nor, despite his dismay at my "preaching congressional approval," does he rebut my testimony that some of the "constitutional infirmities that plague the military order" could indeed be remedied by Congress -- principally by specifying the prosecutable offenses legislatively, as the Supreme Court has held mandatory ever since United States v. Hudson and Goodwin (1812); by guaranteeing that convictions may be appealed to a body independent of the executive, as only Congress can possibly do; and by strictly limiting the tribunals' jurisdiction. Fletcher's supposition that it "never occurred" to me that Congress, too, must abide by the Constitution surely was meant in jest.

Sunstein's problem? It's obvious is it not? In the current dispute on warrantless domestic surveillance, he utterly ignores FISA's prohibition on the actions taken by the President. The Quirin Court ruled that:

Congress and the President, like the courts, possess no power not derived from the Constitution. But one of the objects of the Constitution, as declared by its preamble, is to 'provide for the common defence'. As a means to that end the Constitution gives to Congress the power to 'provide for the common Defence', Art. I, 8, cl. 1; 'To raise and support Armies', 'To provide and maintain a Navy', Art. I, 8, cls. 12, 13; and 'To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces', Art. I, 8, cl. 14. Congress is given authority 'To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water', Art. I, 8, cl. 11; and 'To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations', Art. I, 8, cl. 10. And finally the Constitution authorizes Congress 'To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.' Art. I, 8, cl. 18.

The Constitution confers on the President the 'executive Power', Art II, 1, cl. 1, and imposes on him the duty to 'take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed'. Art. II, 3. It makes him the Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy, Art. II, 2, cl. 1, and empowers him to appoint and commission officers of the United States. Art. II, 3, cl. 1.

The Constitution thus invests the President as Commander in Chief with the power to wage war which Congress has declared, and to carry into effect all laws passed by Congress for the conduct of war and for the government and regulation of the Armed Forces, and all laws defining and punishing offences against the law of nations, including those which pertain to the conduct of war.

By the Articles of War, 10 U.S.C. 1471-1593, 10 U.S.C.A. 1471- 1593, Congress has provided rules for the government of the Army. It has provided for the trial and punishment, by courts martial, of violations of the Articles by members of the armed forces and by specified classes of persons associated or serving with the Army. Arts. 1, 2. But the Articles also recognize the 'military commission' appointed by military command as an appropriate tribunal for the trial and punishment of offenses against the law of war not ordinarily tried by court martial. See Arts. 12, 15. Articles 38 and 46 authorize the President, with certain limitations, to prescribe the procedure for military commissions. Articles 81 and 82 authorize trial, either by court martial or military commission, of those charged with relieving, harboring or corresponding with the enemy and those charged with spying. And Article 15 declares that 'the provisions of these articles conferring jurisdiction upon courts-martial shall not be construed as depriving military commissions ... or other military tribunals of concurrent jurisdiction in respect of offenders or offenses that by statute or by the law of war may be triable by such military commissions ... or other military tribunals'. Article 2 includes among those persons subject to military law the personnel of our own military establishment. But this, as Article 12 provides, does not exclude from that class 'any other person who by the law of war is subject to trial by military tribunals' and who under Article 12 may be tried by court martial or under Article 15 by military commission.

The Hamdi Court made a similar analysis to rule that Congress had authorized the battlefield detention of enemy combatants but that Congress HAD NOT authorized the suspension of the right to petition for a writ of habeas corpus and the procedures delineated by Congressional act.

And in Youngstown, the Supreme Court REJECTED the President's claim that Article II vested in him certain power as Commander in Chief that could not be restricted by Congressional action. Of particular note was the Youngstown Court's refusal to twist the record to preserve a claim of Constitutional authority by the President.

I think the panic that we see is Sunstein's, who has allowed the 9/11 attacks and the threat of terrorism to cause him to suspend his considerable legal acumen and basically check his powerful mind at the door. Sunstein is much better than this. His performance on Hugh Hewitt's show is clearly the nadir of his professional career.

Tags: Constitution, George W. Bush, Separation of Powers, FISA, warrantless wiretapping, Fourth Amendment, War on Terror, Bush Administration, Cass Sunstein, Orin Kerr (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 142 comments

  •  Libertarian Panic (4.00 / 9)

    Like this?

     BenGoshi
    __________________

     P.S. -- O.K., o.k., I know this is "apples and oranges":  nobody in their right mind would equate something as (in its way) benign as a "tea tax" with something as sinister and egregious as an Executive's domestic spying without obtaining a lawful warrant to do so.  I stand corrected.

     BG

    "We in the gloam, old buddy," he said, "We definitely right in the middle of it." -Larry Brown

    by BenGoshi on Tue Dec 27, 2005 at 08:30:26 AM PDT

    •  Heh n/t (4.00 / 2)

      Everybody dies alone.

      by Armando on Tue Dec 27, 2005 at 08:34:34 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Damn you, David Boyle! (none / 1)

       Damn you to the nether regions of the dark and desolute hell from which you spawned!  Go feast forever on the putrid offal in which you so intimately bathe your rancid brainpan.  

       行きやがれ!

       BenGoshi
      ___________________

       Gimme another '3' and I'll really get mad!

      BG

      "We in the gloam, old buddy," he said, "We definitely right in the middle of it." -Larry Brown

      by BenGoshi on Tue Dec 27, 2005 at 02:36:15 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Sorry, I meant a 4, I corrected it. (none / 0)

             What does the Chinese mean by the way?
        •  Also: glad you mentioned, (none / 0)

               because I am using a new computer, and I just looked back and saw I apparently gave several other people 3's without meaning to, including Armando himself yesterday! (now corrected to 4).
        •  Remember "Emily Latella"? (none / 1)

           "Never mind."

           And, btw, it's Japanese (don't you know anything?!?!?!).  It just says, "Ikiyagare" which is a bad, bad, mean way to conjugate the verb "to go" so that it means in English <Mean Snarly Redneck Voice> "Git!" </ Mean Snarly Redneck Voice>.

           BenGoshi
          ___________________

          P.S. -- I know what you mean.  Sometimes my computer makes me write really crappy letters, e-mails and motions when I mean to write very good ones.

           BG

          "We in the gloam, old buddy," he said, "We definitely right in the middle of it." -Larry Brown

          by BenGoshi on Tue Dec 27, 2005 at 03:11:42 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Having seen Sunstein speak (4.00 / 3)

    a couple of times, this is astonishing. But, alas, there it is...

    www.bushwatch.net - Kicking against the pricks since '98!

    by chuckvw on Tue Dec 27, 2005 at 08:34:48 AM PDT

  •  even if theoretically constitutional (4.00 / 2)

    another problem is that even if the President's warrantless surveillance is not prohibited by the constitution in theory, it may well, and probably in many instances violated the constitution in practice, because one suspects that these wiretaps were done without "probable cause" thus violating the fourth amendment.  One suspects that if probable cause was clearly present, the NSA would have asked the FISA court for approval.
  •  Cass Sunstein (4.00 / 5)

    has probably influenced me more than any other legal scholar, and his brilliant work on "The Second Bill of Rights" is very important reading, in my opinion.

    With that said, I really don't understand how he could be so off-base here. I, like him, do not consider myself a "libertarian" and occasionally have disagreements with the ACLU, etc. But to dismiss the Presidents actions here as "a libertarian panic" is bizarre. As Armando has noted here and elsewhere, what we have here is a concerted effort to aggrandize the role of the Executive beyond all Constitutional recognition.

    Anyway, one additional question for Prof. Sunstein: even if Sunstein's legal analysis is correct (which it is not), does he have no problem with the President failing to reveal his actions, and in fact attempting to cover them up as much as possible?

    Shouldn't a President who makes the individual determination that he is not bound by an Act of Congress (and takes a peculiar reading of the Constitution) explain to the nation why these actions were justified and necessary, rather than cover them up? Even if the imminent danger of total nationwide attack percieved immediately after 9/11 justified these actions, the President should have explained what he was doing and why right after the perceieved imminent danger of nationwide attack abated.

    Democrats will fight for a Renewed Deal with the American people.

    by Hoyapaul on Tue Dec 27, 2005 at 08:37:48 AM PDT

    •  It is because it is Cass Sunstein (none / 1)

      that I continue to harp on this.

      Indeed, it is my remote hope that he is spurred to clarify what he has said.

      Everybody dies alone.

      by Armando on Tue Dec 27, 2005 at 08:41:06 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Shouldn't the president explain? (none / 1)

      And shouldn't the president refrain from pressuring the press when they try to explain?

      With Sunstein, I can only wonder--even if he is just having a bad brain day, who else is out there in the law schools, training guys like John Yoo and Alberto Gonzales? Do we have lots of law professors teaching lawyers how to misread the constitution and sidestep the related law? This is really worrisome to me, because I wanted to think that those guys were just loose cannons, but Yoo is now at Berkeley, so when they leave government positions, they fade back into law schools, where they are teaching more young lawyers to be traitors. Ouch. Impeach Bush and fire Yoo.

      "That story is not worth the paper it's rotten on."--Dorothy Parker

      by martyc35 on Tue Dec 27, 2005 at 09:43:19 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  On Cass Sunstein (4.00 / 2)

    I saw Sunstein lose it at CLS.  He gave a lecture supporting Catherine McKinnon's anti-pornography ordinance.  Sunstein argued that pornography was low value speech -- being just a "masturbatory aide" -- and thus could constitutionally be subject to banning.  After the lecture (held in the fifth floor handle of the "toaster,"  professor Andrzej Rapaczynski made the point that many works considered pornographic -- like those by the Marquis de Sade -- were also very political and therefore "high value" speech.  In response, Sunstein lost it, and started yelling at Rapaczynski accusing him of just wanting to be able to look at dirty pictures.

    This was on the heels of a then very recent, very popular visiting professorship at Columbia, in which we who took Sunstein's Administrative Law class idolized him.  He taught Ad Law like what it is -- high octane constitutional law.

    The point is simply that Sunstein in person can get overwrought and flaky when he's been working too hard and hasn't been getting enough sleep.  He does have feet of clay.

    This aggression will not stand, man.

    by kaleidescope on Tue Dec 27, 2005 at 08:40:31 AM PDT

    •  As one known to "lose it" (4.00 / 4)

      on occasion, I sympathize with Sunstein on that character flaw we share.

      But, I hope he is willing to, as I try to be, own up to errors and correct his mistakes. He has made a grievous one here.

      Everybody dies alone.

      by Armando on Tue Dec 27, 2005 at 08:43:28 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Wow! How can anybody... (none / 0)

        How can anybody possibly "rate" speech?  I don't care much for sports, so I'd rate football pretty low.

        Obviously, most of my buddies would disagree with that assessment.  

        That doesn't make me a genius and them fools, but I'm not going to change my viewpoint anytime soon, nor do I expect them to change theirs.  

        Not only would I rate some erotic/pornographic writing pretty highly, it's also unclear how one distinguishes between the two.  Autobiography of a Flea is a "classic" (read: old and much-reprinted) and I don't find it very sexy at all.  Many others find it tremendously exciting.  

        I find the whole basis for his distinctions on writing to be extremely subjective and thus worthless.  

  •  Why am I not surprised? (none / 1)

    Call me simplistic, but my only response is this:

    What else do you expect from a University of Chicago Law School faculty member?

    Fuck.  Of the top law schools in the nation, U of Chicago is the most notoriously right-wing of them all.

    It seems to me that just like Scalia before him, for all of their appeal to these abstract notions of strict constructionism and the like that supposedly rationalize their right-wing tendancies, when all is said and done, they are just plain old right wingers and fascists.

    Intellectual integrity is the last thing I look for in these types.

    •  most right-wing law schools (none / 0)

      It is probably a toss up between U of C and pepperdine.

      fact does not require fiction for balance

      by mollyd on Tue Dec 27, 2005 at 08:49:01 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yeah, but Pepperdine is not (none / 0)

        considered a top law school.

        In fact, it isn't even usually considered a top 20 law school.

        I'll admit, that there are probably other law schools just as right wing as University of Chicago.  But I doubt that any of these schools are of the same stature as, say, Stanford, Yale, Harvard, U Va, UC Berkley, NYU, etc.

        In this rarified company, University of Chicago is the exception.

      •  UVA, not Chicago (none / 0)

        Chicago has a conservative rep, but the University of Virginia is the most conservative top law school by far.  UVA is about 50/50 conservative/liberal, which is incredible for a law school.  I'm not aware of the exact numbers on Chicago, but from what I've heard it's more in line with the rest of law schools.

        My personal experience so far has shown this as well at UVA - of the four major classes I took in my first semester (finally done!), two had Federalist Society members for professors, and the other two were widely known conservatives in other ways.

        Not that I'm complaining, having brilliant people who challenge your views is what law school is all about.  Additionally, of the four professors, only one or two I'd be able to pick out as a conservative based solely on their classroom performance.  Partly because it's hard to put an ideological slant on Civil Procedure, and partly because a good conservative professor is the same as a good liberal one - coming out of their class you shouldn't know where they stand.

    •  Dear SpermDonor (none / 1)

      As a 1997 graduate of The University of Chicago Law School (and if you don't capitalize The, you suck), I've got to disagree.  From Sunstein to Geoff Stone to Al Alschuler to David Strauss and, oh yeah, that Obama guy (as well as the dearly departed-to-elsewhere Mary Becker and Steve Schulhofer), I had the privilege of learning from some of the top liberal legal academics in the world at Chicago.  And conservatives like Epstein and McConnell.
    •  What Else Do I Expect? (none / 0)

      As a graduate of The Law School (Class of '79), I expect clear thinking and a logical presentation.  

      Sadly, Professor Sunstein failed on both counts.  My own view is that Professor Sunstein is spreading himself too thin.

    •  Sunstein (none / 0)

      is hardly "right-wing", which makes his statements even more problematic.

      Not to mention that he is, by far, the most cited law professor in the United States (and probably the world). So for him to make the arguments he makes is both surprising and disappointing.

      Democrats will fight for a Renewed Deal with the American people.

      by Hoyapaul on Tue Dec 27, 2005 at 09:08:41 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I presume you've seen these links: (none / 0)

    FISA modified requests and Bush outright bypasses FISA.

    If this doesn't get him impeached, nothing will.

    People are usually more convinced by reasons they discovered themselves than by those found by others.

    by BlaiseP on Tue Dec 27, 2005 at 08:44:40 AM PDT

  •  What are the Powers of Each Branch of Gov't? (none / 0)

    Given the history of the United States, the Constitution, and the body of law and legal descisions, it is interesting that there is as much argument as there is.

    I think some Bush supports are shooting from the hip here, trying to excuse anything he does. It's hard to imagine that things are so far gone that saner heads won't prevail, however. Ultimately, Americans don't want a president with imperial powers.

    This is CLASS WAR, and the other side is winning.

    by Mr X on Tue Dec 27, 2005 at 08:48:55 AM PDT

  •  I'm not a lawyer but (4.00 / 2)

    it sems to me FISA was intended to define how domestic surveillance could be done without violating the Fourth Amendment.

    When that surveillance is conducted without the required judicial oversight, not only is FISA violated, but without the buffer of FISA authorization, the Fourth Amendment is also violated.  

    In other words, FISA provided both limitations and protection to the Executive branch.

    Out of stupidity or evil intent, this administration has engineered a head-on collision with the Constitution, not just a statute.

    The consequences should reflect that.

    •  You are correct (none / 0)

      in part, on FISA.

      But it is more than that. It was also a Congressional response to perceived abuses by the Executive branch.

      Everybody dies alone.

      by Armando on Tue Dec 27, 2005 at 09:06:35 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Amen. (none / 0)

        Church investigations brought it about.  As we know, Bush and Rummy were trying to circumvent Carter as he came to power.  Carter signed this to prevent Plan B.

        PATRIOT I+II, MCA, FISA CAPITULATION, NOW TORTURE. YOUR COUNTRY IS SLOWLY BEING DISMANTLED. WHAT R U GONNA DO ABOUT IT?

        by maxschell on Tue Dec 27, 2005 at 10:04:54 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I agree (none / 0)

      with Poppyrocks.  I view FISA as providing a limited exception to the 4th Amendment because its probable cause requirements are not the same as in the typical criminal case and there is the 72 hour pre-warrant thing.  When its terms are violated, then the 4th Amendment is violated.  Hence, perhaps I am missing something, but I don't even understand Kerr's argument:  I think if you violate FISA by not seeking the FISA court's approval, you violate not only FISA, but the 4th Amendment.  If someone wants to explain why I am wrong, I am listening.
  •  Sunstein is in good (?!) company .. (none / 0)

    Today's "Unwarranted Compaints" OpEd by David Rivkin and Lee Casey rehashes the same ground. Their basic premise, as with Sunstein, is that

    "Even if Congress had intended" (through FISA) "to restirct the president's ability to obtain intelligence in such circumstances, it could not have constitutionally done so. The Constitutio designtates the president as commander in chief, and Congress can no more direct his exercise of that authority than he can direct Congress in hte execution of its constitutional duties."

    So the Constitution's Article 1, Section 8 grant of the power "To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces" to the Congress is null and void in the face of the ambiguous Article 2, Section 2 "The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States."

    Another feature of the whole "conservative" story is their willful mis-interpretation of the "Commander in Chief" role of the president. As the title of Article 2, Section 2 makes plain, the intention is not to have a "supreme commander" but rather to have "Civilian Power over Military." Mr. Bush and Mr. Cheney seem to believe they are some kind of "Uber General" in the "War on Terror" where the framers sought to have a civil leader to control the "dogs of war."

    c.

    2172

    •  Rivkin et al (none / 0)

      is incredibly BAD company. Republican operatives.

      Everybody dies alone.

      by Armando on Tue Dec 27, 2005 at 09:02:19 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I agree. (none / 0)

      The right interprets the Commander in Chief defined in the Constitution as a trap door out of the Constitution. On their reading, when America is at war the President as Commander in Chief has unlimited, unaccountable power. Permanent war then makes that unlimited power permanent. Their reading of the role of Commander in Chief undermines the Constitution and their acting on it is effectively a coup d'etat.

      "A president who breaks the law is a threat to the very structure of our government....President Bush has repeatedly violated the law for six years." Al Gore

      by psnyder on Tue Dec 27, 2005 at 10:06:47 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Today's "Unwarranted Compaints" OpEd (none / 0)

      is in the NYT. I don't have a link to the free version. Someone else?

      "That story is not worth the paper it's rotten on."--Dorothy Parker

      by martyc35 on Tue Dec 27, 2005 at 10:33:54 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Exccellent Point (none / 0)

      The Commander-in-Chief provision was to maintain civilian control over the military so we didn't end up with a military dictatorship a la Rome.  Bush has stood the provision on its head by reading it to authorize a civilian dictatorship.  There's nothing in the Constitution that turns the US into a Presidential dictatorship during time of war a la Athens.

      Bush's crew are the same fascists that were in the Reagan administrative where they specifically violated the law to support the Contra terrorists.  Negraponte was point man for the Contra terrorists and the death squads of El Salvador and Guatemala that propped up the military dictators in those two countries.

      Bush I had to pardon Weinberger from going to jail.  Can Bush II pardon himself?  Can a sitting President be procesecuted for crimes he commits in office?  Or does he have to be out of office to be under jeopardy?  Is the statute of limitations tolled while he is President if he has immunity while in office?  

      "War is a racket." Brig. Gen. Smedley D. Butler

      by aztec on Tue Dec 27, 2005 at 10:41:50 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Not Athens. (none / 0)

        Other states may have made their governments dictatorships in time of war.  But Athens certainly did not.  To see this, you have only to read Thucydides.  Political debate remained quite lively during war, and the leaders could be voted down.

        And there was certainly freedom of speech.  The classic antiwar plays by Euripides and Aristophanes were presented -- at state expense -- during the Peloponnesian War, when Athens was fighting for its life.

        The influence of the [executive] has increased, is increasing, and ought to be diminished.

        by lysias on Tue Dec 27, 2005 at 03:15:10 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Tortured Logic? (none / 0)

    We are seeing the results of partison support of an Imperial Presidency rather than independent thought. What other reason could there be for such tortured logic?

    Maybe he was tortured into saying those things? Was there a "Constitutional Scholars day trip to Abu Ghraib" that we missed?

    Remember, THEY hate us for our Freedom! The freedom for the President to do as he damn well pleases.

    by Tuba Les on Tue Dec 27, 2005 at 08:51:19 AM PDT

  •  I'm having trouble caring... (none / 1)

    ...about what some law professor said on Hugh Hewitt's show. Is there something I don't know about this guy?

    Certainly, any time someone says something so monumentally stupid as this (libertarian panic?) he should get a smackdown. But this treatise seems to assign some weight to his views, just by its length.

    I'm not disagreeing, I'm just wondering why he deserves so much attention.

    •  He is a leading (none / 0)

      "liberal" constitutional scholar.

      In the teeing up of this issue, his views matter a great deal in my opinion.

      Everybody dies alone.

      by Armando on Tue Dec 27, 2005 at 09:01:34 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Prof. Sunstein (none / 0)

      is the most widely cited law professor in the country, and he's always able to get a wide audience for his views. So his statements do carry a good deal of weight, especially (but not exclusively) in the left-of-center camp.

      Thus, when he makes a mistake as I believe he did on this issue, it's more important to correct it than if he was just some regular law professor somewhere.

      Democrats will fight for a Renewed Deal with the American people.

      by Hoyapaul on Tue Dec 27, 2005 at 09:13:36 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I'm no lawyer... (none / 0)

        ..just an IT infrastucture person, but I was hoping for some discussion by the lawyers as to the substance of what he was saying, the 4th amendment vs. FISA argument...

        WHY did he say that?  IF this isn't a clear violation of the 4th amendment, what constitutes a violation?  WHERE'S the friggin boundary?

        •  Unfortunately, (none / 1)

          ..the 4th Amendment is in tatters thanks to the "War on Drugs."  Most Americans don't realize how bad it is.

          This may help wake some Americans up.  We just may be able to pull some good out of this if we can achieve Privacy legislation.

          Of course, we can't get good legislation with the current crew in power, because it will become the "Homeland Privacy Act", sponsored by Joementum.  We can't let them do an Orwell on Privacy.

          PATRIOT I+II, MCA, FISA CAPITULATION, NOW TORTURE. YOUR COUNTRY IS SLOWLY BEING DISMANTLED. WHAT R U GONNA DO ABOUT IT?

          by maxschell on Tue Dec 27, 2005 at 10:09:20 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  YES! (none / 0)

            I have complained bitterly about this for years to friends on both political sides -- having to piss to get a decent job, submit to random sobriety and/or car insurance checkpoints -- and NOBODY GIVES A DAMN, not even theoretically! They see no slippery slope, no significant erosion. Very, very frustrating.

            This is going to be very interesting in a creepy sort of way...

          •  Privacy Legislation: Go to States (none / 0)

            Ride the wave of attention in the easiest forum to move, State Legislatures. If we can bring Republicans on board at that level it sends a signal to the Congressional GOP.

            It would also seem a great moment to start State Constitutional Right to Privacy Amendment drives in those States wwhere this can be done thru ballot initiatives.

            I've been working on a geoprivacy bill at the State level here, the Sponsor's waiting on the Legislative Reference Bureau's drafters, should be very soon. This will deal with location data from cellphones.

            Democratic Candidate for US Senate, WI (2012)
            Masel4senate

            by ben masel on Tue Dec 27, 2005 at 01:36:17 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Wow...excellent! (none / 0)

              Great idea.  

              Re: Wis bil..Would love to get a link when it's ready.  Maybe you'll diary?

              Seems that we could get certainly get an initiative in Cali...will look into it.

              PATRIOT I+II, MCA, FISA CAPITULATION, NOW TORTURE. YOUR COUNTRY IS SLOWLY BEING DISMANTLED. WHAT R U GONNA DO ABOUT IT?

              by maxschell on Tue Dec 27, 2005 at 03:16:38 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  GeoPrivacy bill... (none / 0)

                Will certainly write  a diary when we formally introduce. meanwhile, some elaboration...

                1. Requires a search warrant for (State and local) Law Enforcement access to location records.

                2. Requires explicit opt-in by the phone account owner for the cell company to market location records. This would allow parental nannyphones. (What about company provided phones for employees? Perhaps allowable when getting paid, but not on free time? Gotta get back to Rep. Schneider on this...)

                3. Reqires the cell company to delete history records where there's not either an opt-in or a valid court order.

                Democratic Candidate for US Senate, WI (2012)
                Masel4senate

                by ben masel on Tue Dec 27, 2005 at 03:38:59 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  Here's The Basic Argument (none / 0)

          The argument that this does not violate the Fourth Amendment is based upon a long-established exception for border searches.  This exception was extended to letters sent from abroad to individuals in the United States (including U. S. citizens) by the U. S. Supreme Court in U. S. v. Ramsey, 431 U. S. 606 (1997).  For example, if a U. S. citizen returns home from abroad, the U. S. citizen's luggage may be searched at the point of customs entry.  

          Arguably, there also is a "national security" exception to the Fourth Amendment, although this stands on somewhat shakier ground.

          •  I have heard this argument (none / 0)

            and found it to be specious.  A citizen's presence at the border is deemed to mean he or she has a lessened expectation of privacy, i.e., you know you are subject to scrutiny at a border checkpoint, unlike when you make a phone call or send an email.  The lessened expectation of privacy forms limited exceptions such as searches of business in regulated industries, etc.  The supreme court has been pretty clear on the illegality of warrantless electronic surveillance of typically private matters.  
            •  Yes, But (none / 0)

              In the Ramsey case, the individual was not present at the border.  The items searched were letter-sized envelopes mailed from Thailand to individuals who lived in D. C.  The postal inspector conducted a warrantless search of the envelopes because (1) the envelopes were sent from Thailand (a country the inspector associated with the drug trade), and (2) the inspector thought the envelopes contained more than correspondence.  There was a statutory basis for the search that did authorize a search for illegally imported materials based upon less than probable cause.  
              •  difference is (none / 0)

                Ramsey based on congressional statute/regulation.  Still don't like it, though.
                •  also thought contraband enclosed n/t. (none / 0)

                  •  There Was Heroin (none / 0)

                    Enclosed in the envelopes.  

                    The government also had obtained warrants to listen in on the phones of the people involved (and probably would have caught them anyway), but the New York postal inspector discovered the envelopes en route from Thailand to Washington, D. C.

                    One nice piece of dicta in Ramsey is that the Court left for another day the question of whether any correspondence in the envelope could be read.  There was a statute that said no and some of the dissenters obviously thought that the Ramsey case would be a slippery slope to abuse.

  •  Correct me if I'm wrong but (none / 0)

    no matter what FISA, the AUMF or Article II of the Constitution says...Bush's actions are directly contradictory to the 4th Amendment. Since the 4th Amendment is very specific regarding this behavior, any laws that may have allowed Bush to bypass FISA would be unconstitutional. Therefore, no matter what statutes are enacted, warrantless searches against Americans simply aren't allowed under any circumstances.

    Am I right on this?

    Sometimes the pool-pah exceeds the power of humans to comment. - Bokonon

    by Squirrel2634 on Tue Dec 27, 2005 at 08:55:18 AM PDT

    •  well (none / 0)

      that's what Kerr's original argument meant to disprove, I think.  He's an interesting writer, and worth checking out (IMHO).  www.volokh.com
      •  I just don't (none / 0)

        see his logic in saying the fourth amendment probably hasn't been violated. I simply don't understand how it hasn't been violated.

        Sometimes the pool-pah exceeds the power of humans to comment. - Bokonon

        by Squirrel2634 on Tue Dec 27, 2005 at 09:02:14 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Court decisions have badly watered down (none / 0)

          what the Fourth Amendment says.  But it hasn't become meaningless.  Relying on the Fourth Amendment, a unanimous Supreme Court struck down warrantless searches in domestic national security cases.  And Congress has stated in FISA what it interprets the Fourth Amendment to mean in the foreign intelligence context, and courts have so far upheld FISA.

          The influence of the [executive] has increased, is increasing, and ought to be diminished.

          by lysias on Tue Dec 27, 2005 at 03:19:08 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Movie in a Firehouse (none / 0)

      Just as there are exceptions to the 1st amendment's freedom of speech (e.g. 7 Words You Can't Say on Television),  there are exceptions to the 4th amendment as well. An obvious one is that  if you are carrying something in plain sight of a police officer, his seeing it doesn't count as a search, so a warrant isn't needed. Which I consider reasonable, although I could see how the words themselves could be interpreted  in an alternative fashion. Not that I'd necessarily agree with that alternative interpretation.

      It seems to me that FISA skates pretty close to the edge, but it does recognize that some of the situations in our modern world require faster response than were needed in the 18th century. (One of the dangers of a Living Constitution, that... ;-) )

      I don't know how Congress could construct a statute, though, that would allow what Bush has admitted to. Even ignoring his above-the-law mentality, it does seem clear that a warrant is needed for the given searches, and the exceptions allowed in FISA (72-hour retroactive warrant, no warrant required right after an attack on the U.S.) seem to cover any reasonable situation.

      RV

      Those who claim that the US began as a purely secular or absolutely Christian nation are both 100% half right... Forrest Church

      by RanxeroxVox on Tue Dec 27, 2005 at 09:58:11 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  My thought (none / 0)

        is that this wasn't spying on targeted individuals but was instead a form of Data Mining. I don't see how that can possibly be constitutional. When you start talking about sorting through massive amounts of random information, you start getting into not only the 4th Amend, but also into Griswald. Basically, I think all of the defenses that Bush Co. has put forward so far have more holes in them than swiss cheese.

        If it looks like shit, and smells like shit, then it must be a republican.

        Sometimes the pool-pah exceeds the power of humans to comment. - Bokonon

        by Squirrel2634 on Tue Dec 27, 2005 at 10:09:01 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Questions about post facto FISA authorization. (none / 0)

        What happens if, under FISA, a search is performed, a warrant is sought for it after the fact within the 72 hour window, but then the warrant is denied by the FISA court? What becomes of any findings from the search? What may be submitted to the FISA court to justify the search? May results of the search be included? Or is timing, not content, the only difference between a submission before and after the fact?

        "A president who breaks the law is a threat to the very structure of our government....President Bush has repeatedly violated the law for six years." Al Gore

        by psnyder on Tue Dec 27, 2005 at 10:22:00 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  If the FISA court refuses the retroactive approval (none / 0)

          the results of the surveillance have to be destroyed.

          The influence of the [executive] has increased, is increasing, and ought to be diminished.

          by lysias on Tue Dec 27, 2005 at 03:21:38 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Thanks. (none / 0)

            Do you know if there's any oversight to ensure that that happens?

            "A president who breaks the law is a threat to the very structure of our government....President Bush has repeatedly violated the law for six years." Al Gore

            by psnyder on Thu Dec 29, 2005 at 12:14:36 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  Not exactly (none / 1)

      A warrantless search is per se unreasonable UNLESS it falls within one of the recognized exceptions:
      1. Search incident to an Arrest
      2. Items in Plain View
      3. Jail house Inventory searches
      4. Automobile
      5. Consent
      6. Hot pursuit
      7. Exigent Circumstances
      8. Border searches.
      9.  Stop and frisk searches

      (Its been 20 years since I took criminal procedure and I don't practice criminal law, so be gentle if there are new exceptions)

      If the search falls within one of these exceptions, then a warrantless search is legal.

      "Once in a while you get shown the light In the strangest of places if you look at it right"

      by molly bloom on Tue Dec 27, 2005 at 10:07:06 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Don't forget... (none / 1)

        heat signatures.  Law enforcement uses infrared technology to "search" properties for high levels of heat that might indicate marijuana growing operations.

        SCOTUS ruled these are OK.

        Thus, radiation detectors that FBI used is very likely OK.

        Trust me, they are going to argue that heat signatures jurisprudence lets them do data mining.

        They are wrong.

        We need to show them why.

        Any analysis contrasting heat signatures and radiation detection with data mining would be most appreciated.  I would like to understand how each is carried out (unlike that whacko Posner, who on the WaPo chat, actually said he had no idea how data mining is performed, but thinks its ok anyway), in order to preempt this defense.

        Hey, BTW, you know that we have problems when both a Federal judge AND a respected constitutional law professor both think that attention to facts and analysis is not necessary.  SOMETHING IS VERY WRONG AT THE U OF C.

        PATRIOT I+II, MCA, FISA CAPITULATION, NOW TORTURE. YOUR COUNTRY IS SLOWLY BEING DISMANTLED. WHAT R U GONNA DO ABOUT IT?

        by maxschell on Tue Dec 27, 2005 at 10:14:58 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Um ... IR detectors were ruled UN-constitutional (none / 0)

          without a warrant, from the AP:

          Kyllo v. US
          CERTIORARI TO THE UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS FOR THE NINTH CIRCUIT
          [Decided June 11, 2001]

          In a 5-4 ruling on June 11, 2001, the US Supreme Court ruled that the use of thermal imaging (infrared) scanners to look at homes for evidence of crimes is unconstitutional without a warrant. The majority issued a broad decision, suggesting that other types of high-tech gear which reduce privacy in the home are also disallowed without a warrant. This decision reverses a set of flip-flopped 9th Circuit Appeals Court decisions where the 9th Circuit first found in favor of Kyllo and then, after a judge resigned, it reheard the case and decided against Kyllo.

          c.

          2172

          •  You're right! (none / 0)

            Did some checking.  I thought they had affirmed the 9th Cir. that reversed itself.

            Scalia, of all people, wrote the majority opinion:

            On appeal, he argued that the seized plants could not be used as evidence against him because police did not have a search warrant before surveilling his home with the thermal imaging device. Kyllo lost at the federal appellate level when the 9th US Federal Court of Appeals' ruled that the use of heat sensors did not constitute a search of Kyllo's home and therefore did not require a search warrant.

            The Supreme Court disagreed. For the majority, the question to be decided was two-fold. First, did thermal imaging surveillance constitute a search in the constitutional sense; and second, if so, was such a warrantless search reasonable and therefore constitutional?

            In the majority opinion, Justice Scalia wrote: "Where, as here, the government uses a device that is not in general public use to explore intimate details of the home that would previously have been unknowable without physical intrusion, the surveillance is a 'search' and is presumptively unreasonable without a warrant."

            Quoting earlier Fourth Amendment search and seizure rulings, Scalia wrote that "at the very core" of the amendment "stands the right of a man to retreat into his own home and there be free from government intrusion. It would be foolish to contend that the degree of privacy secured to citizens by the Fourth Amendment has been unaffected by the advance of technology," Scalia wrote.

            "In the case of the search of a home's interior -- the prototypical and hence most commonly litigated area of protected privacy -- there is a ready criterion, with roots deep in common law, of the minimal expectation of privacy that exists, and that is acknowledged to be reasonable. To withdraw the protection of this minimum expectation would allow police technology to erode the privacy guaranteed by the Fourth Amendment."

            The minority opinion, authored by Justice Stevens and joined by Chief Justice Rehnquist and Justices O'Connor and Kennedy, bought the Justice Department argument that thermal imaging did not constitute a search and was therefore permissible without obtaining a search warrant. "No intimate details of the home were observed, and there was no intrusion upon the privacy of individuals," wrote Stevens.

            But, Scalia retorted in the majority opinion, heat-sensing devices "might disclose, for example, at what hour of each night the lady of the house takes her daily sauna and bath -- a detail that many would consider 'intimate.'"

            [snipped from stopthedrugwar.org]

            So, assuming that Roberts votes for radiation detection, the question is will Scalia and Thomas jump to the other side because of national security?

            PATRIOT I+II, MCA, FISA CAPITULATION, NOW TORTURE. YOUR COUNTRY IS SLOWLY BEING DISMANTLED. WHAT R U GONNA DO ABOUT IT?

            by maxschell on Tue Dec 27, 2005 at 11:30:14 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Hamdi was a national security case (none / 0)

              where Scalia voted against the government.

              The influence of the [executive] has increased, is increasing, and ought to be diminished.

              by lysias on Tue Dec 27, 2005 at 03:23:59 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Distinction btw Kyllo and Radiation? (none / 0)

              Much of the language in Kyllo focussed on whether infrared monitoring of a building's exterior is considered a search. The fact that it could reveal activity other than marijuana farming (ie when you drew a bath) was decisive. Not sure if that distinction would apply for radiation detection equipment.

              Kyllo did not, for example, reverse prior cases upholding running dope-sniffing dogs outside the home w/out warrants.

              Democratic Candidate for US Senate, WI (2012)
              Masel4senate

              by ben masel on Tue Dec 27, 2005 at 03:47:39 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  yes. (none / 0)

          I think the radiation detection story was a Bush administration plant meant to provide a slippery slope justifying the NSA taps.  Don't go there.  There is a huge difference between "data mining" personal phone calls and emails and sniffing the air for radioactivity.
          •  Read... (none / 0)

            ..Scalia's opinion above.

            If heat detection is TOO intimate, just think about personal information.

            They may try to distinguish because it's not technically a search of the home.

            I think we SHOULD discuss this.  I think they lose on this, especially given the SCOTUS decision.

            PATRIOT I+II, MCA, FISA CAPITULATION, NOW TORTURE. YOUR COUNTRY IS SLOWLY BEING DISMANTLED. WHAT R U GONNA DO ABOUT IT?

            by maxschell on Tue Dec 27, 2005 at 11:33:01 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  I seem to recall (none / 0)

            wireless phones being differentiated from landline phones and there being no expectation of privacy since anyone can intercept them.  Thus wireless calls fall in the category of plain view (can't cite the case).  Someone please tell me that case isn't good law otherwise I have a fear that they will claim emails, VOIP as well as wireless calls are in that category.

            And of course, they will tell us that the "4th Amendment protects people not places."

            "Once in a while you get shown the light In the strangest of places if you look at it right"

            by molly bloom on Tue Dec 27, 2005 at 03:07:23 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  A lawyer, Deadhead, named Molly (none / 0)


         I think I'm in e-love.

        BenGoshi
        ___________________

        well, it is a cool name (even if you just made it up for this site!).

         BG

        "We in the gloam, old buddy," he said, "We definitely right in the middle of it." -Larry Brown

        by BenGoshi on Tue Dec 27, 2005 at 10:55:08 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Blushing (none / 0)

          I plead guilty to being a lawyer and a Deadhead. Molly Bloom is my dog's name. I named her during my Irish period. Leopold liked the name and didn't have any objections so she has Molly Bloom the microdog  ever since (except she isn't so micro any more)

          "Once in a while you get shown the light In the strangest of places if you look at it right"

          by molly bloom on Tue Dec 27, 2005 at 03:13:55 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  If you tell me you own a Basset (none / 0)


             I.  will.  just.  die.  

             And, sometime, ask me about my "'Scarlet Begonias' in Osaka" story.

             Take care.

             BenGoshi
            ___________________

            My doggie was Lord Fairfax (my "English Period").  It's been a couple of years since he departed (alas, I still miss him...) but am in line now to adopt a new hush puppie who needs a home.  There WILL be a re-naming...  Hmmm. . .  maybe a Daily Kos "Name BenGoshi's New Dog!" contest. . . Hmmm . . .

            BG

            "We in the gloam, old buddy," he said, "We definitely right in the middle of it." -Larry Brown

            by BenGoshi on Tue Dec 27, 2005 at 03:21:52 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Not a basset hound (none / 0)

              Leopold and I own a French bird dog (toy poodle) as I tell my friends in Georgia.

              "Once in a while you get shown the light In the strangest of places if you look at it right"

              by molly bloom on Tue Dec 27, 2005 at 03:51:37 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  French Bird Dog (none / 0)


                 Sounds much better, indeed.  I'm in the Deep South, too.  And, yes, there are Toy Poodles here, a.k.a. "bait".

                 Remember:  ask about the Scarlet B Osaka Story sometime!  Later, and regards to Leopold and French Bird Dog!

                 Take care -

                 BenAllAroundThisWorldGoshi
                __________________

                "We in the gloam, old buddy," he said, "We definitely right in the middle of it." -Larry Brown

                by BenGoshi on Tue Dec 27, 2005 at 04:52:05 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

  •  Good for Kerr (none / 0)

    Good for him for coming forward and clarifying.  Yes, he's maintaining a fairly dispassionate tone, but I don't think that's a bad thing.  And good for you, Armando, for posting the response here.

    Thanks!

  •  Damn, Armando (none / 0)

    You do know how to issue a legal smackdown, don't you?

    Glad you're on our side :)

    •  Left turn (none / 0)

      I'm going to go off topic in the next paragraph because I've been wanting input on a question I've wanted to address to you legal-eagles out there especially. First though, I want to post my agreement with the above poster and thank Armando. It's great and so helpful to the cause that you did not allow Sunstein's nonsense comments pass. Good work. Much appreciated.

      Now to my off topic question: Why is it that nearly everyone who says or writes about a felon refers to said felon as "a convicted felon"? Unless I am missing something you are either a person who has been accused of committing a felony, or, if you are convicted of a felony then you are a felon. There should be no need to tag on the word 'convicted' in order to accurately label that person. To call the person a convicted felon is redundant. Calling them that seems to me to be nothing more than overstated, hyperbolic blather. Is there any substantive reason for prefacing the word 'felon' with the word 'convicted' when describing someone who is a felon?

      •  Actually... (none / 0)

        many definitions of "felon" simply cover those who have committed a felony.  A conviction isn't necessary to meet the definition.  Hence, the "convicted" modifier.
        •  Felon/Convicted Felon? (none / 0)

          Thank you but I don't understand your definition of 'felon', and thus, your answer to my question. One can not be "a felon" if one is not convicted of having committed a felony. Is that not true? So, if that is the case then, once again, why not just say that the person is a felon rather than a convicted felon?

          You're saying that someone can be a felon without having been covicted of having committed a felony? Would you please provide an example/explanation of how that would come to be the case?

          •  Felon/Convicted Felon? (none / 0)

            You are right, in that the usual sense of "felon" means to have been convicted of a felony. But there is a broader sense of the word, which means merely any person who has committed a felony (regardless of a trial and conviction). People are not always careful in their use of language (or logical, either). If one wants to slur someone by calling him/her a felon when the person hasn't actually been convicted or even done anything wrong at all, then the term should be "alleged felon," but that isn't what the name caller intends, and it blows the effect and force of the name calling. Can one say "alleged creep" or "alleged jerk?" Of course not. What happens, then? Another person, trying to be careful and precise, is pushed into the redundancy, "convicted felon," just to be sure that no one thinks it's anything other than the facts. Police (or law enforcement) jargon is full of such redundancies, designed to be absolutely precise, but often sounding silly, like Jack Webb in Dragnet.

            There is another sense, too: when a person's actions appear to us to be felonious, we may call that person a felon based on our assumption that a court of law would convict. I have been known to call George Bush a felon by relying on that premise. It may not be legally accurate, but it is great wishful thinking.

            I am not a lawyer, but I am a linguist, and linguists say that usage determines what is correct. So if your speech community says "convicted felon," then don't worry too much about the redundancy. All natural languages are full of redundancies, at the phonological, morphological, and syntactic levels, and especially at the semantic level. I would worry more about all those people in Florida who were denied the right to vote by being put on a "felon" list. Many of them were neither convicted nor alleged. That misuse of language had effects in the real world, on real people, and we should try to make sure it doesn't happen again.

            Nice talking with you.  

             

            "That story is not worth the paper it's rotten on."--Dorothy Parker

            by martyc35 on Wed Dec 28, 2005 at 12:06:40 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  "Sealed Case" (none / 0)

    Does "Sealed Case" make the Bush argument non-frivolous, because it provides them with at least a "nonfrivolous argument for the extension, modification, or reversal of existing law or the establishment of new law" under Rule 11 (even though it ignores Youngstown and appears to say that the President's "inherent power" permits him to ignore a statute like FISA.)

    In other words, if Sealed Case provides some basis in "existing" law (although dicta) for Bush's position, and the position is therefore not frivolous, can he be impeached for (supposedly) relying on it?

    However, if it's merely non-frivolous, but nonetheless clearly wrong under much better precedent than Sealed Case, shouldn't it be possible to request an injunction of the non-FISA searches?  Would Congress have standing?  The ACLU? PETA?

    [reposted from last night]

    Don't get me started . . .

    by Upper West on Tue Dec 27, 2005 at 09:22:16 AM PDT

  •  Yes, Armando (none / 0)

    There is a difference between an illegal act and an unconstitutional act. If the act was illegal, the law can be changed. If the act was unconstitutional, the amendment process changes the basic law without normal procedures.

    -4.00, -5.33 "When serving as a judge, do not act as a lawyer"--Pirkei Avot, too late

    by 4jkb4ia on Tue Dec 27, 2005 at 09:24:41 AM PDT

    •  Huh? (none / 0)

      The President's act of violating a Congressonal act can only be made constitutional by amending the Constitution.

      What are you talking about?

      Everybody dies alone.

      by Armando on Tue Dec 27, 2005 at 09:39:49 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  seems to me (none / 0)

        the only argument that can be made is that Bush's purported inherent authority under Art. 2 supersedes any restriction under FISA, or for that matter any act regulating war passed by congress Simply don't think the fathers or the constitution envisioned this.  
  •  Sorry, we need heads on pikes, tumbrils (4.00 / 2)

    parading down Pennsylvania Avenue, and all of these "law lords" who work themselves into a frenzy defending the clearly subversive and unAmerican activities of their colleagues in support of the grievous usurpations, arrogations and unConstitutional actions of the White House in proclaiming the Presidency is above the Law, and therefore Autocratic need to be vilified, excoriated and shunned.

    No more of this nonsense about "convincing them by argument." We've had five years of this "argument" and we have lost; it's well beyond that now. The Presidency (by which I include Bush and all his minions, cabinet, dark forces, and whatnot) has quite literally seized Autocratic power and dared anyone to do anything about it.

    We're well beyond argument now.

    --felix

  •  Should some of us commenters (none / 0)

    feel vindicated ;)?

    I want to write something how Bush's plan doesn't pass muster under the Fourth Amendment special needs doctrine.

    But perhaps not necessary.

  •  again, ..I'm no lawyer... (none / 0)

    ..just an IT infrastucture person, but I was hoping for some discussion by the lawyers as to the substance of what he was saying, the 4th amendment vs. FISA argument...

    WHY did he say that?  IF this isn't a clear violation of the 4th amendment, what constitutes a violation?  WHERE'S the friggin boundary?

    •  FISA, the 4th, SCOTUS, and the Executive (none / 1)

      Armando gave a kind of incomplete picture about how SCOTUS handles executive power during times of war.

      Justices have really had a pragmatic approach to this issue; as much as lawyers love to go back and forth on this doctrine, it's really a flexible law because the stakes of war (i.e. thousands, perhaps millions of lives), mean precedence takes a back seat to pragmatism.

      How does this play out? Well, if you look at civil war, where Confederate uprisings were a real threat, the Supreme Court gave real carte blanche to Lincoln, and he definitely bent the Constitution. As the war ended, the Court started reining in the executive. In World War II, with so many lives at stake, SCOTUS again gave a lot of free rein.

      With the war on terror, the Court followed the same strategy. In 2002, Bush probably could have done anything short of rape and pillage and gotten away with it. In 2005, it's time to find a more enduring middle ground.

      The problem with screaming about FISA is that it was established at the END of Vietnam, when the presidential power was again on the ebb. I think the federal court might also feel now is the time to bring the executive back under wing, but if it does that, it'll be due to timing (we're 4 years out since 9/11) more than any principle of checks-and-balances.

    •  Look at the Ramsey Case (none / 0)

      The Fourth Amendment argument can be traced to a 1977 Supreme Court case, U. S. v. Ramsey, 431 U. S. 606 (1877).  This case authorizes a search of international mail coming into the United States, even if the mail is being sent to a U. S. citizen.  In the Ramsey case, envelopes sent from Thailand and addressed to individuals resident in the D. C. area were searched at the General Post Office in New York City.  The warrantless search was authorized under a Congressional statute relating to customs searches (based upon a reasonable cause to suspect that merchandise was being imported contrary to law).

      The Supreme Court held that the warrantless search was valid under a long-recognized exception for border searches.  The Court said that such searches are a valid exercise of "national self protection."  Such searches are considered reasonable simply because the person or goods enter the United States from outside.  

      However, even the Ramsey court acknowledged that any correspondence that was included in an envelope could not be read.  This would appear to be where the First Amendment and the Fourth Amendment clash.  This is where the boundary might be.  There also might be a question of whether the method of search is reasonable.  

      •  yeah but... (none / 0)

        ..since this was data mining and not just international calls being monitored as they lied about, i believe that the cited court case is moot.

        what is the point of the 4th amendment if there are no boundaries, especially with a government that willfully abuses the "national security" excuse... i.e. they go around the FISA court that monitors these goons.

        •  The Distinctions Are Important (none / 0)

          We don't know all the precise details of what is occurring (or at least I don't feel that I do).

          My purpose in writing about the Ramsey case is not to indicate agreement with the arguments propounded by the Bush Administration, but to suggest that the Bush Administration may argue that what they are doing is an extension of the "border search" exception to the Fourth Amendment.

          The existence of FISA and the Fourth Amendment requirement that a warrant be obtained before a "search" of electronic communications is permitted obviously are distinguishing facts.  

          At any rate, I would not suggest sending bulky envelopes that contained more than correspondence from Thailand with the expectation that the envelope would not be searched without a warrant.

  •  Sunstein's Moderate Liberalism