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Even if I believe everything you guys are telling me, that a grown man with a muscle and weight advantage plus a gun persued and was subsequently beaten up by a 17 year old boy, and that your guy got his nose broken and head busted, your guy lost the fight. Then he responded, like a true coward, by shooting and killing the kid who beat him up. He went looking for the fight and when it found him, he couldn't handle it.

Even if I accept everything you folks say, and I don't, Zimmerman still ought be locked up. You know, Trayvon Martin had the right to stand his ground too. Your guy should have took his lumps like a man.

That's about all I have to say to Zimmerman's supporters.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (217+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jennyp, not4morewars, lina, Pinto Pony, worldlotus, Horace Boothroyd III, DRo, Dirk McQuigley, Jackson L Haveck, kevinpdx, slothlax, litho, OllieGarkey, FindingMyVoice, doroma, Aquarius40, majcmb1, mahakali overdrive, Dr Colossus, NormAl1792, Debbie in ME, Angie in WA State, linkage, aitchdee, sodalis, Siri, Boris49, raina, IndieGuy, TomP, greengemini, KnotIookin, boophus, ColoTim, old wobbly, AlyoshaKaramazov, chuco35, Matt Z, miracle11, Sassy, oldmanriver, DBunn, Annalize5, jnhobbs, kathny, Sylv, Anton Bursch, Paul Ferguson, rogerdaddy, GeorgeXVIII, rg611, Hayate Yagami, mconvente, Ekaterin, sawgrass727, yet another liberal, SneakySnu, stunzeed, bnasley, batchick, fumie, pat of butter in a sea of grits, entrelac, wytcld, one of 8, genethefiend, Marjmar, legendmn, rhubarb, political mutt, kestrel9000, Ozzie, shypuffadder, SixSixSix, no way lack of brain, bobdevo, True North, Tonedevil, sockpuppet, Quite Contrary, manneckdesign, balancedscales, JayRaye, christomento, icebergslim, legalchic, Blue Dream, maybeeso in michigan, BeadLady, Joy of Fishes, WoodlandsPerson, gloriana, Rhysling, MBNYC, sonorelli, Brooke In Seattle, krllos, Eric Nelson, KenBee, dmhlt 66, pinhead, Unit Zero, cachola, DefendOurConstitution, No one gets out alive, Clytemnestra, Loonesta, mamamedusa, rantsposition, itskevin, shaharazade, Chi, EagleOfFreedom, Involuntary Exile, reflectionsv37, marleycat, Portlaw, puakev, martini, maxcat06, SoCalSal, ranger995, TFinSF, SanJoseLady, bamajunky, The Raven, Lying eyes, Little Flower, KenInCO, Shockwave, ewmorr, madame damnable, psnyder, BadgerGirl, Geenius at Wrok, nosleep4u, Trim Your Bush, MadRuth, Akonitum, cybersaur, ksingh, luckydog, Seneca Doane, US Blues, sprogga, FourthOfJulyAsburyPark, WakeUpNeo, Catesby, Haningchadus14, alnep, Happy Days, tommyfocus2003, zedaker, orphanpower, splashy, Stripe, Aaa T Tudeattack, Smoh, tin woodswoman, durrati, Bridge Master, Bill Roberts, multilee, MrSandman, blueoasis, Char, Plantsmantx, SD Goat, tb92, implicate order, Ginny in CO, ParkRanger, GenXangster, retLT, Dem Beans, deben, cassidy3, Chaddiwicker, sunbro, sukeyna, deha, Lilyvt, MufsMom, Dontstopbelieving, Dumbo, NYFM, Matilda, BobBlueMass, sea note, paulitics, Remsicle, Liberal Granny, Debby, kaliope, badlands, ecriddell, Dazy, Oaktown Girl, jhop7, Pinko Elephant, jayden, MartyM, Clive all hat no horse Rodeo, Hastur, uciguy30, Pat K California, Freedomfreak, OleHippieChick, Brit, fou, Rick B, 43north, kurt, annieli, rodentrancher, SadieSue, BusyinCA
  •  But he was not arrested. (15+ / 0-)

    And in the end we have a tragic death of a teenager and an unarrested, unindicted and unconvicted Zimmerman who can go home every night and wake up every morning.  Zimmerman should have taken his lumps like a human and he instead shot a young man in cold blood.

  •  I'd imagine his argument (3+ / 0-)

    is he needed to use the gun to stop the beating and save his own life.  

    Seems unlikely, given what we know.

    Another thought: what if Treyvon was in fact casing houses for burglary?  Would that have justified Zimmerman's behavior?

    "A Republic, if you can keep it."

    by Publius2008 on Fri Mar 30, 2012 at 10:36:30 AM PDT

  •  Meantime, the gated community is NO safer. Since (19+ / 0-)

    Zimmerman went after a kid who was not associated with  thefts in the apartments, the community is actually worse off than before.  Some help the Crimw Watch was!

    •  The robbery reports on the (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Khun David, jayden, Smoh

      sanford police site all happened during the day and go back 2 or 3 years.  So, zimemrman's hunting at 7:00 at night was not going to catch whoever was breaking into houses and stealing computers, cameras and tv's.....most of whom were apprehended and convicted with fingerprint evidence and the one kid (the most recent burlary) was caught with the stolen computer in his backpack.

  •  Actually he won the fight (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sockpuppet, Lying eyes, Smoh

    Trayvon is dead. Zimmerman is not.

    •  Lost the battle, won the war (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      sockpuppet, Smoh

      Which can leave the victor vulnerable to conquest, in this case by justice.

      There is truth on all sides. The question is how much.

      by slothlax on Fri Mar 30, 2012 at 10:46:40 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Don't you mean the opposite? Won the battle, (0+ / 0-)

        but lost the war?

        •  No (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ColoTim, Smoh

          I mean Zimmerman lost the fist fight battle and won the "war" against Martin. But in doing so he opened himself up to serious jail time. Sort of how I see the use of violence to solve conflicts in general, I guess.

          There is truth on all sides. The question is how much.

          by slothlax on Fri Mar 30, 2012 at 12:45:32 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  OK. I thought you were going for the battle (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            slothlax

            with Martin, and losing the war for his being able to live his life the way he wanted - he will never be able to live his life without feeling threatened and hopefully, in the wake of a successful prosecution, he'll be mixed in amongst those he hates and fears the most.  

            I don't know, though, if what I see on TV about hispanic gangs squaring off against black gangs in prison is going to be his new world.  If so, he may have a bunch of supporters, should he so choose.

    •  Bullshit! (21+ / 0-)

      Shooting an unarmed person is not "winning a fight" any more than running over someone with your car is "winning a fight."

      Mitt Romney seems programmed to keep running for President the way a Roomba is programmed to keep running into furniture.

      by seenos on Fri Mar 30, 2012 at 10:54:06 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Well said. n.t (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Boris49, IndieGuy, Matt Z

        Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

        by NMDad on Fri Mar 30, 2012 at 11:11:18 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  You don't have to say bullshit (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Jackson L Haveck, SoCalSal

        That thug Zimmerman is still walking the streets, so effectively, Trayvon lost, his parents lost and continue to lose because there's been no justice. Even if Zimmerman gets thrown in jail, Trayvon died at 17. So Trayvon lost, and we've all lost.

        •  Oh, I seriously doubt he's walking the streets. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          jayden, Smoh

          He's just not in jail.

          "That the people have a right to bear arms for the defence of themselves and the State ..."- Vermont Constitution Chapter 1, Article 16

          by kestrel9000 on Fri Mar 30, 2012 at 01:05:51 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Yeah (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            kestrel9000, Ginny in CO, Smoh

            I'll bet he hasn't left the house in a while.

            "A lie is not the other side of a story; it's just a lie."

            by happy camper on Fri Mar 30, 2012 at 02:48:00 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  The comments about his behavior (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Khun David, jayden, Hastur, Smoh

              right after the shooting,  that he has not been seen since released by the SPD, and the comments of his family, friends and legal representatives, has me wondering if George is facing some demons.

              First, actually killing another human is usually a horrible experience. Some are less affected than others, basic military training involves some serious psych work to overwhelm the normal instincts about not killing. So George may have been quite devastated by emotions he was unprepared for.

              Second, George may have learned he is not the great hero he imagined he would be. The public response may only be underscoring what he faced after shooting Trayvon: he lost control of the situation (if he ever had it). With a 17 year old kid who wasn't armed. Who apparently confronted George with a simple question about why he was following him.

              Not so brave or smart or marvelously heroic as the fantasies. Only a big bully who got away with killing an unarmed 17 year old and is being heavily criticized by more people than he ever imagined would know his name. IF he doesn't go to jail, what kind of life is he going to have?

              "People, even more than things, have to be restored, renewed, revived, reclaimed and redeemed; never throw out anyone. " Audrey Hepburn "A Beautiful Woman"

              by Ginny in CO on Fri Mar 30, 2012 at 07:59:57 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  i agree with most of what you said... (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Ginny in CO

                I have to disagree on your first point, tho.  That is killing a man SHOULD be a horrible experience, but first z would have to acknowledge that Trayvon was a human being. I would guess he doesn't do that.

                Otherwise I really appreciate your analysis of broken fantasies and think you are quite right.

                Cats are better than therapy, and I'm a therapist.

                by Smoh on Sat Mar 31, 2012 at 09:56:59 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  That was unclear, sorry (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Smoh

                  Yes, killing another human is actually something revolting to humans across most spectrums.  That is why

                  basic military training involves some serious psych work to overwhelm the normal instincts about not killing
                  The US military discovered that WWII vets barely used their guns - only 20 % of expected amount. They came to the conclusion (don't remember what it was based on) that it was because of the truly inherent human aversion to it. So they developed a program to desensitize the inductees.

                  It has been improved upon steadily since. You may remember that one of the arguments against the commercial war videos generally, and I think one in particular, was how similar they are to what is used in basic training to prepare the soldiers to be able to kill. So I am totally not surprised by the killing and massacres in Iraq, Afghanistan and anywhere else we send 18 to 25 year olds trained to kill, with weapons.

                  Ever since Rambo took over the Super Hero role models, the emphasis in those who are sucked in to it is killing people. The Militia groups that are armed, the Tea Party gun toters, some vets ('Soldiers for Jesus'), and all kinds of lone wolves like George Z are out there with the conviction that the country/world will be saved when they can eliminate the sub humans who are destroying it. Because they all commit crimes against other humans.

                  The effect of killing another human, especially a defenseless one,  on the human psyche is one of the reasons I strongly oppose the death penalty. About 10 years ago there was supposed to be a study on the Texas 'tie down' team. Suspect the funds were cut or the results destroyed. I've never found any. Excellent play on this is Coyote on a Fence. I doubt it has been produced very often or widely.

                  The broken fantasy idea hit me as I was reading this diary. It had been forming since I first read the comment about how distraught he was at the scene, typical of a person who has just killed someone. Having just read the one about him 'snapping' erratically, I think they all finally pointed to the reality he is dealing with.

                  "People, even more than things, have to be restored, renewed, revived, reclaimed and redeemed; never throw out anyone. " Audrey Hepburn "A Beautiful Woman"

                  by Ginny in CO on Sat Mar 31, 2012 at 10:59:55 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  As a Vietnam veteran who served honorably (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Ginny in CO, Smoh

                    and as a person who is active within the VA system and who participates in veterans groups, I want you to know that many, many US military members are not indoctrinated into becoming killing machines.  The USAF, my branch, had four weeks of basic training when I served.  That was a shortened training period due to the war in Vietnam and the draft still being in effect.  Very little time was devoted to any gun/combat training .However,  while there is an underlying message that all military may need to be used in combat/combat support, all of the stateside bases and NATO HDQT's where I was stationed - all of those duty stations had an essentially peacekeeping - mission support function (the mission being transport of personnel and machinery all around the world), though during the war in Vietnam I was sent to two bases for temporary duty (TDY) in support of civilian airlines bringing US troops into and out of the combat zone.

                    Most of the women and men I served with were in USAF job classifications that were not at all combat related. I was in the USAF Command devoted to supporting transport aircraft/crews and civilian contract airlines transporting troops.

                    •  Glad you clarified the difference. (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Smoh

                      I don't remember the information about the desensitization being very explicit as to whether all troops or just those trained for combat were part of it. I did not recall who or where I read that part of the problem for the vets who had been in combat is a lack of a separation program to help develop their ability to cope with PTSD reactions. Those individuals are completely different than the 'Soldiers for Jesus' I cited.

                      One of the reports during the Iraq/Afghanistan build up was of the derogatory language and portrayals of middle eastern cultures during training sessions. Rag heads is the only specific I remember now. It was much more than that. War has always been about dehumanizing and vilifying the enemy, for both the warriors and the citizens.

                      As an RN, veterans have been a very tragic part of my 35 year career. In addition to having married into an AF family (FiL was WWII Army Air Corps, German POW for 18 mo and then career wing commander in the new Air Force) and having a father and uncle who served, I have also been involved in various Vet support groups over the years. I can see why the comments could have come across as labeling all vets with a problem they clearly don't have.

                      What I had hoped to convey is those incidents that get attention due to the horrible nature of war related murders, happen because the individuals have had some significant interference in how they think about people who live in a war zone. The age issue is a big problem for me because neuroscience has established that the final development in the frontal cortices, that allows a person to accurately estimate the consequences of an action, is not completed until age 25. Aside from the interference in normal attitudes, I have to wonder if it also interferes with the normal development of that ability.

                      All of this puts the military personnel trained by these methods, and put in combat, in an unjust and inhumane system that then does not support them when they return. Those who have had their bodies and minds so destroyed that the pursuit of happiness in what remains of their lives is impossible, are the casualties of war I have fought the most for: to help the ones we have and to prevent creating more.

                      My apologies to those who have served for not writing that more carefully. I would add that to me it is probable those incidents are no larger or more frequent because of the caliber of people who choose to serve in uniform.

                      "People, even more than things, have to be restored, renewed, revived, reclaimed and redeemed; never throw out anyone. " Audrey Hepburn "A Beautiful Woman"

                      by Ginny in CO on Sat Mar 31, 2012 at 01:11:30 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I remember some of that material (0+ / 0-)

                        from Lt. Dave Grossman's book On Killing. Difficult stuff, and I ended up getting rid of the book because it disturbed me so much.
                        Here's a link to some more of his work: Grossman works

                        The founding fathers knew of the mutually corrupting influences of Church and state, wisely sending them to opposite corners.

                        by emidesu on Sat Mar 31, 2012 at 09:12:03 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Thank for a source I was (0+ / 0-)

                          not familiar with. Amazing sometimes how much information we have that has not made it into the common knowledge. Which I attribute to the powers of the 1% who make ever increasing fortunes in the ongoing wars.

                          Anyone reading the comments at this point, I would suggest you go the link in emidesu's reply. The titles and descriptions of the books are informative.

                          "People, even more than things, have to be restored, renewed, revived, reclaimed and redeemed; never throw out anyone. " Audrey Hepburn "A Beautiful Woman"

                          by Ginny in CO on Mon Apr 02, 2012 at 12:31:28 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

      •  With ya! nt (0+ / 0-)

        Cats are better than therapy, and I'm a therapist.

        by Smoh on Sat Mar 31, 2012 at 09:49:44 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Thank you! (12+ / 0-)

    My take away, taking Zimmerman's story at face value, is not that I need to start packing heat. Its this: DON'T FOLLOW SUSPICIOUS PEOPLE AROUND, ESPECIALLY WHEN ITS DARK AND RAINY! HOW MUCH OF A FUCKING IDIOT ARE YOU?

    There is truth on all sides. The question is how much.

    by slothlax on Fri Mar 30, 2012 at 10:43:10 AM PDT

  •  I think the Stand-Your-Ground law actually (48+ / 0-)

    applies better to Trayvon than it does to Zimmerman.

    Now we have people whining over whether or not Zimmerman will get a fair trial because - get this - he's going to receive prejudicial treatment. They're subtly arguing that he shouldn't be tried at all.

    Which is disgusting, because Trayvon Martin belonged to a group which has seen constant institutional racism in the  legislative, law enforcement, judicial and correctional systems we have for decades now. Black folks make up 14% of our population, and 40% of our prisoners because of the still-present institutional racism they face.

    Zimmerman needs to be arrested, He needs to be tried, and he needs to go to jail. And then, this nation needs to have a conversation about the racism that causes people to see a young black man wearing a hoodie as a dangerous thug.

    But I'm worried they're going to move the trial from Orlando up to the panhandle, which is the headquarters for the largest and fastest-growing KKK faction in the US.

    An Fhirinn an aghaidh an t'Saoghail.

    by OllieGarkey on Fri Mar 30, 2012 at 10:54:55 AM PDT

    •  Good ol' State of Florida... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      OleHippieChick, Smoh

      ...the more North you go the more South it gets.*

      *offered tongue in cheek and "borrowed" from some snarky sight that had sayings/slogans for all States.  I'm well aware that "the South" does not hold a monopoly on racism and hate groups.

      "The most potent weapon in the hands of the oppressor is the mind of the oppressed." ~ Steven Biko

      by Marjmar on Fri Mar 30, 2012 at 04:01:59 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Many Progressives/Liberals (0+ / 0-)

        live in the I-4 Corridor - St. Pete/Tampa to Orlando - and the president won this region in 2008.  Of course there are many bigots/haters racists and homophobes in Florida.  I met many when I lived in Bost also.  There are many honorable and caring citizens here..  The 2000 election, in my view, was definitely stolen.  On another thread a Kossack wrote that my state and all its people are "an abomination."  Damn.  That is just ludicrous.

  •  Hopefully not too many of them around these parts. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    SoCalSal, Marjmar, Smoh
    That's about all I have to say to Zimmerman's supporters.
  •  First of all... (5+ / 0-)

    One is not a Zimmerman supporter for merely positing that a 17-year old 6'3" 150 lb person can pose a threat.  We don't need the "apologist" type of language for reasonable debate.   And no, I don't believe Trayvon started anything or, at this point, that Zimmerman even received a scratch much less his purported "story".

    •  what gets me is except for following Trayvon, (11+ / 0-)

      the rest of this could have happened to me but on my property...

      I carry daily and have a broken body.  I'm not going to let myself get beat down by a punk, who here, by the law of averages, would be a white 6' 150lb tweaker, and end up paralyzed because he twisted me wrong and finished off my lumbar spine.

      I'm also a half hour plus from a cop esp at night.

      I hear the donky and roosters and hog and such going off and I think predator, 'yote, bobcat, hell I've had Lion tracks in the yard and have lost way too much livestock to predators to allow it to continue.  Should the commotion turn out to be a person attempting to break in, I'm suddenly in a confrontation I had no idea existed or most surely wanted.

      If a situation like that happened and the person rushed me, I would shoot them without hesitation.

      The closest so far was when I though I finally had the 'yote who had nailed so many of my hens, I grabbed the .22 and in my tighty whitys and nothing else but sandals went out the back door and aimed towards the commotion......Then I saw the group of migrants using the wash on my property to traverse it....they saw me as I saw them, I immediately lowered the rifle and they took off running at the same time....

      As I well know the 4 rules and was not sure as to the target or backstop there was no way I would have shot but they didn't realize that...I still kinda feel bad about that mixup...however I got the 'yote the next week and the predation stopped (for a bit)........

      Zimmerman blew it hard when he got out of his truck to follow Trayvon.  At that point, Trayvon has the right to stand his ground by the law though he was too young to carry... Had Z stayed in the car, odds are Trayvon would still be alive....though with the recent shooting rates of cops vs innocent person.........

      Vaya con Dios Don Alejo
      I want to die a slave to principles. Not to men.
      Emiliano Zapata

      by buddabelly on Fri Mar 30, 2012 at 01:03:49 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Don't get me wrong... (4+ / 0-)

        While I'm not on the jury and the evidence isn't as clear-cut as I'd like it to be, if you made me decide what was true....  I believe it was Trayvon Martin screaming for help and Zimmerman shot him in cold blood.  Based on available evidence presented to me, he's a murderer.

        I just don't think we need this kind of bs language here about someone being a "apologist" or "stooge" or what have you for merely acknowledging that there are other possibilities even if unlikely.

        It's one of the most sickening aspects of discussion on this site.

  •  same thing i have been saying (8+ / 0-)
    Facebook Friend

    Its hard to say for sure what happened with one person dead and conflicting reports on both sides. But I definitely think there is enough evidence for charges to be laid and a trail to be performed to let a jury decide if their is enough evidence to convict.

    Anton Bursch

    Look at him in this video. He's cool and calm. He just shot and killed someone. He claims that he's the one screaming the blood curdling cries for help heard in the 911 call. So, he cries like a terrified little baby when a kid is beating him up, though clearly not badly enough for there to be visible signs of it on his body or clothes, but as he's being walked into the police station in handcuffs, where he has to explain that he just killed this kid in self defense, he's as calm as someone walking in line to buy groceries. I don't believe him.

    I think Zimmerman killed this kid in a moment of lunatic rage. The kid is the one screaming for help as Zimmerman is holding a gun to him saying that he's going to kill him.

    Or I think Zimmerman accosted this kid and the kid started to fight back and being the cowardly blowhard that he is... he starts freaking out that someone is actually fighting back with him, thus the terrified screams, and he pulls out his gun and kills the kid.

    Facebook Friend

    I definitely think the facts are not clear and that there is a huge propaganda war on both sides trying to make perception more important then the facts. I don't know what to think of Zimmerman. It is common to outwardly show cool and calm in tense situations, like killing someone for the first time. Some people freak out and others become withdrawn and cold, some people do both in different situations. Really its not my place to judge either of them, because I do not have all the facts, and most likely never will. A jury would get all the facts though, which is why I think a trial should take place.

    Anton Bursch

    Are there 2 sides to this? Who in the world is defending Zimmerman? Wow. Well, I think that as far as the law is concerned, Zimmerman is innocent until proven guilty. But personal, I think it's a matter of what he's exactly guilty of and not whether or not he's guilty. He did not need to kill this boy. He clearly wasn't in danger of being killed or even seriously hurt. You can see that plain as day in the video.

    As for how calm and cool he is after having just killed someone in what he thought was a fight for his own life. If he wasn't the one screaming bloody murder on the 911 call, then I could buy that. But he says it was him crying for help. If you listen to the cries for help... they didn't come from someone who is cool and calm like he is in the video. The cries are from someone utterly terrified of dying and unable to have even a little amount of composure in the way they handle it. How could he lose his shit while having a gun in a fist fight with a 140 pound kid and then later be so cool and composed and relaxed even while he's in handcuffs on his way to be grilled about killing someone. It doesn't add up.

    This guy should just fess up and tell the cops what really happened... and it isn't what he's been claiming. For god's sake. He says that the kid said "you got me" after he shot him in the chest. No. No way that happened. Zimmerman is making up shit in my opinion.

    I would be afraid of prison if I killed someone, but I couldn't live with myself if I realized that I had killed a kid on his way home with skittles and an ice tea.

    Facebook Friend

    Few good things have come from jumping to conclusions, judging and persecuting someone before all the facts have been laid bare and the person proven to have done what they are accused of.

    Anton Bursch

    he killed a kid. he admitted to it. he deserves everything he's getting right now. if he doesn't like it, then he shouldn't kill kids.

    i think my cat is possessed by dick cheney

    by Anton Bursch on Fri Mar 30, 2012 at 12:24:57 PM PDT

  •  I've been saying the same thing (26+ / 0-)

    How does an armed stalker claim the right to self defense?

    I'm no philosopher, I am no poet, I'm just trying to help you out - Gomez (from the song Hamoa Beach)

    by jhecht on Fri Mar 30, 2012 at 12:25:58 PM PDT

  •  About Robert (Daddy) Zimmerman...check this out: (6+ / 0-)
    From InsightOut News

    A Closer Look At George Zimmerman

    Written by: Annemarie Rush

    snip

    Here is what is known:

    Zimmerman grew up in a strict Catholic family in Manassas, Virginia.  His father, retired Virginia Supreme Court magistrate Robert J. Zimmerman, is retired military, and from all accounts raised his children in an authoritarian manner denoting that.  

    Neighbors from his childhood have stated that both he and his siblings were kept sheltered in their home, and were not permitted to play with neighborhood children.  Virginia police records show that George Zimmerman was the victim of an assault shortly before relocating to Florida.

    snip

    Zimmerman and his family relocated to Lake Mary, Florida in 2002, where his father became an Orange County magistrate. In 2004, Robert and Gladys Zimmerman had George’s name removed from the deed to a house in Lake Mary.
    and this:
    George Zimmerman, Son of a Retired Judge, Has 3 Closed Arrests
    11:25 AM EDT 3/27/2012 by Danielle Canada

    Did George Zimmerman have help from his father, a retired judge, in clearing his name in three separate arrests?

    That’s the question that’s being asked now that more information on Trayvon Martin’s 28-year-old killer is being revealed.

    Robert Zimmerman, a former Orange County magistrate judge, recently wrote a letter to The Orlando Sentinel defending his son, who’s been dragged through the mud for shooting the unarmed 17-year-old last month
    .
    Does anyone have any further info on this surprise? Maybe it's old news to you but it's new to me.

    All this time I thought the Daddy retired from the military and lived in Virginia. If these accountings are right, Robert Zimmerman would be well positioned to call in some markers.

  •  Zimmerman had better face trial for his crime (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    libnewsie

    He's a menace to society!

  •  "Like a man" (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sockpuppet, jayden

    You're suggesting, you know, that he's not. Because I totally would agree with that. Only those lacking in manhood bring guns to a fight where fists will do.

    Likewise, only those lacking in manhood bring lies to debates where truth will do. There are reasonable, honest ways to disagree with various Democratic policies and priorities. The Republicans can't find it in themselves to pursue any of them. Bullies and liars, every one of them. Which is to say, not true men.

    Hardly even passing for human. Divorced from their souls. Animated by something truly evil. If only Jesus would return and cast it out of them.

  •  Do we even know (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sockpuppet, zedaker, OleHippieChick

    if Trayvon was shot in the chest or the back?  The witness interviewed by Anderson Cooper made it sound as though Zimmermann was on top, shot Trayvon, stood up, and walked away.  Either that witness or another described Trayvon as lying "face down."

  •  Thank you! An ass-kicking isn't THAT bad... (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    kestrel9000, sockpuppet, Loge, zinger99, Hastur

    Even if you take Zimmerman at his word, he got his ass kicked. By a much smaller man. Now whether he shoots the kid or not, that's factually true. Shooting him does nothing to erase the fact that you know he beat your ass. Getting your ass kicked sucks. It's embarrassing and it hurts a little bit. It's not the end of the world, though, not by far. Most men I know have lost fights in their lives. I sure have. In fact, if you've been in a fair number of fights, and never been beaten, you're probably doing it wrong. Your fights aren't fair, and you're purposefully seeking out weak targets.

    Now here is what happens if you don't pull a gun and shoot the kid.....

    First 72 hours: Embarrassment, physical pain, regret.

    1 Week Later: You're healed physically, still embarrassed and maybe a bit ashamed.

    One Month Later: It's not so embarrassing anymore. Those emotions are dulling quickly. It's becoming just another thing in your life...

    3 Months Later: Hell, you can probably laugh at it now. That small kid put a beating on me. Damn! Mixed it up with the wrong kid!

    1 Year Later: Who gives a shit?

    Instead, he took a kid's life. And he has to live with it. And he's probably going to go to jail because of it. The kid is dead. His family is ruined forever. Zimmerman's family is ruined forever.

    Why?

    •  His brother said that George told him that the (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      SixSixSix

      kid saw the gun and declared his intention to use it against him. Have no idea whether that's true or not, but that would definitely raise the possibility that the incident was not going to end in a mere "ass-kicking".

      •  Fair enough... Nobody yet knows for sure what (0+ / 0-)

        Happened. Still, though, aside from my speculation, I still believe Zimmerman had no business instigating a fight with a 17 year old kid doing nothing but walking down the street...

        One thing it reinforces to me. As a white man, I can walk down most any street in the country, and nobody doubts my right to do so. A young black man, though, it's a whole different world.

        •  Zimmerman claims that he didn't instigate (0+ / 0-)

          the fight, that he was returning to his truck when Martin approached him, had words, and then threw the first punch.

          As a young black man, I've never doubted my ability to walk down any street in the country based on my race. I've doubted by ability to walk down streets that were excessively dangerous, but not based on race. I've walked streets in a variety of neighborhoods where there were very few blacks, and I've never had an issue.

          •  I hope it stays that way. (0+ / 0-)

            Most black men I've spoken with have had bad experiences; in the past I've even seen white neighbors acting weird over friends who visited me.

            The founding fathers knew of the mutually corrupting influences of Church and state, wisely sending them to opposite corners.

            by emidesu on Sat Mar 31, 2012 at 09:23:13 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  It is reported by multiple news media sources (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        jayden

        not just "his brother said..."  that the brother and Mr. Zimmerman had not spoken for years and that they have not spoken since the murder.  Then a new speculation is added to that shaky story.  Oh well.

    •  Bizarre logic (0+ / 0-)

      I'm sorry, but if someone is beating the crap out of me, and not stopping while I cry out, I'm going to go ahead and assume they might kill me, intentionally or not (especially if they are making repeated blows to my head).

      I'm just not going to put any trust in a stranger beating the crap out of me.  Trusting someone brutally assaulting you is warped logic.

      If I have a gun, I;m going to use it.  If I instigated the fight, I get manslaughter or worse.  If it was unprovoked, I get off.

      •  I'm assuming... (0+ / 0-)

        That he wasn't truly on the verge of being beat to death given the footage of him looking relatively healthy at the police station.

        If I instigated a fight, was told by the police NOT to follow, and was getting beat by a man without a weapon.... I think I'd take my chances with the beating as opposed to shooting the guy and hoping I don't go to jail for something I started.

        Of course, I'd also try to avoid the entire confrontation if I could, too.

  •  Zimmermann Case Boils Down To This (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    SoCalSal

    First, let me say I don't know either way whether or not race was involved or whether this is a hate crime.  That is a complex analysis that requires us to await the results of the full investigation.

    However, based on what we know now, here are some facts that are troubling:

    - Zimmermann was patrolling with a gun; patrolling armed is not standard procedure for neighborhood watch; recall the NY Guardian Angels who patrol unarmed

    - furthermore, he was not patrolling his property, but rather roaming the neighborhood

    - the initial police investigation was clearly flawed and the police chief rightly resigned for creating at the very least a P.R. mess

    It seems that now, at least, the prior problems with a lack of a police investigation are being remedied.  I am pretty confident that, especially with all the publicity, some form of charge will be levied against Zimmermann.  From the fragments we know now, for example, that one of the initial police detectives questioned the veracity of Zimmermann's account.  It is not clear that, at least at the working level, there was some sort of law enforcement conspiracy at work.  Some people smelt something fishy from the get go.

    Per BBoy's analysis, I don't think losing a physical altercation by itself gives Zimmermann a cause to use deadly force.  His lawyer says Martin was hitting his head on the sidewalk.  His brother says Martin may have gone for the gun Zimmermann was carrying.  These are statements of people sympathetic to Zimmermann and hence will need to be back up by evidence.  You cannot simply say "I was in fear of my life" and shoot someone.  You need proof.

    However, we need to let justice take its course.  And keep open the possibility that, in the end, there may not be enough evidence to indict or convict Zimmermann.  He may walk free.  That's the way the cookie crumbles.  

    For example, I believed - and still do - that OJ Simpson was guilty of killing two people.  But when the jury verdict came out "Not Guilty," I had to accept it.  I would not support vigilantes hunting down O.J.  Nor would I wish him to be harmed while in prison (which is where he is now, for another matter).

    Recall that in the OJ case, many people said they thought OJ had done wrong, but that the government had simply not proved its case.  That's how it is supposed to work.  And that is how it works for Zimmermann here - he is innocent until proven guilty.

    We need to let the system work.  If it is not working, we need to know why and fix it.  Tweeting home addresses and urging vigilantism are the same tactics of the Night Riders.   And it is irresponsible for many to play this up as a racial issue when all the facts are not yet in.

    "Hidden in the idea of radical openness is an allegiance to machines instead of people." - Jaron Lanier

    by FDRDemocrat on Fri Mar 30, 2012 at 01:23:23 PM PDT

    •  I think you're assuming some facts that (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      thestructureguy

      I don't know to have been established.

      1. Zimmerman "patrolling with a gun". I think his statement to the police is that he was running a personal errand when he encountered Martin.

      2. "He was not patrolling his property, rather the neighborhood". I'm not sure here, but I gather that this is a condominium complex, in which case he would be a joint owner of the common areas, which would be private property, not public.

      3. The initial police report was "flawed". I don't know that anything in the initial police report has yet been proven false. Do you know of anything?

      •  Hmmm (0+ / 0-)

        As far as #1, sounds like he was doing both

        On #2, that would be thin reed to base his defense - theoretically as citizens we could argue we are "joint owners" of all public property; I think a jury would be more persuaded if he was inside the threshold of his home or at least his yard

        On #3, I meant investigation - it sounds like the cops did not check into the cellphone or do a full canvass for witnesses...it also sounds like they brushed off the investigator who questioned Zimmermann's veracity; in any case what the police chief first said about the case to the public was highly inaccurate.

        As I said, I give Zimmermann the benefit of innocent until proven guilty.  It bothers me that Sharpton is turning this into a "no justice no peace unless you arrest him" situation.  If they give in to Sharpton, that is bowing to mob justice.

        "Hidden in the idea of radical openness is an allegiance to machines instead of people." - Jaron Lanier

        by FDRDemocrat on Fri Mar 30, 2012 at 11:42:37 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I think for purposes of a case like this (0+ / 0-)

          we would all be considered "joint owners" of public property. That's why there are laws such as the Castle Doctrine that allow certain actions within your own house that are not allowed in public. I don't think his "defense" is going to be based on the fact that it's a condominium and not a public street; I was just trying to correct the record. Technically, he was on his property, not the surrounding neighborhood.

          I actually don't know what the police chief initially said that was highly inaccurate. What was it?

  •  I just hope they somehow manage to get (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    RumsfeldResign

    an impartial jury.   Even semi impartial.

    Nothing in the world is more dangerous than a sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity. Martin Luther King, Jr.

    by maybeeso in michigan on Fri Mar 30, 2012 at 01:34:27 PM PDT

  •  What BBB said. (7+ / 0-)

    Zimmermann is either a liar, a coward, or most likely, both.

    Fuck me, it's a leprechaun.

    by MBNYC on Fri Mar 30, 2012 at 01:40:57 PM PDT

  •  A very well reasoned take on this came out (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    moviemeister76, DemInDisguise, jayden

    on Monday from Bomani Jones, the sports personality.  Here  Skip to the last question, at 43:40 for a widespread.  I actually had a diary typed up, but hadn't got around to publishing it.

  •   Zimmereman is fundamentally unqualified.. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    KenBee, libnewsie, jayden

    ..in every way to try to do what his actions show he believed he thought he should be authorized to do.

    Serve as a police/peace officer

    I don't in any way believe in making jokes about this tragedy for a quick laugh.  Daman Wayans  producer of "In living color" was way ahead on this & used humor as the vehicle covering/exposing some very serious issues. I hope that comes through in this comment of mine
     

    Some call this the "Hero Syndrome" - not the right reasons to enter the field of law enforcement imo, even as an unofficial neighborhood watchman

     

  •  Most likely scenario (0+ / 0-)

    Just think for a minute of how a fight would go down between a 6'2" 150 lb. man and a 5'9" 200 lb. man.  

    If it starts out with both men standing, as a fist fight, the taller guy with the longer reach has the initial advantage.  We'll never know who threw the first punch, but once punches are being thrown, I don't doubt Trayvon is going to land a good one.  Maybe Zimmerman even ends up on the ground.  Maybe he's on the concrete, and even bangs his head a bit.

    But once both men are on the ground, and this evolves into a wrestling match, I'm betting the 5' 9" 200lb contestant is going to end up in control of the situation before long.  

    George says he was worried about the concrete, and tried to move the fight onto the grass.  Well, the fight clearly ended up on the grass, so I guess he succeeded.  And I would guess, if he didn't like being on concrete, well he probably didn't like being on the bottom either.  And so he probably ended up on top.  And he probably also ended up with the skinnier man in some kind of pain inflicting hold, perhaps even just twisting his arm.  And this is where we have screams, which most of the witnesses seem to believe came from the younger man.  

    And then, once he was firmly in control, and he was on the grass, and there was no longer any threat there, after more than a half minute of those screams, this is when he shot Trayvon Martin in anger.   Which is completely in line with everything else we know about his past anger management issues.

    •  How about the fact that the gun was jammed? (0+ / 0-)

      that indicated that someone had their hand over the place where the round should have been ejected.  Which the police believed to have been Martin, presumably when Zimmerman reached for his gun Martin also grabbed it and they struggled over it bliefly.  Which is why they let Zimmerman go under Florida's horrible laws instead of at least making him explain himself to a jury first.

      I agree with everyone else here that it was clearly second-degree murder, but we should be sure to actually engage the arguments other people use.

      Also, it's funny how on DailyKos, Zimmerman had a weight and muscle advantage, and elsewhere he's fat and probably asthmatic.  Looking at his picture, I'll believe that he's fat, but I'm also willing to believe the claim that he has some muscle under it.

      •  The gun was jammed? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Sharon Wraight, OleHippieChick

        Do you have a cite you can post?

      •  I hadn't heard that (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        arroganceisstrength

        I wonder if there would be a way to prove the gun was jammed; obviously it did fire after, so I'm not sure.  

        Is this something from Zimmerman's testimony?  

        As for the weight, I believe people were basing that on older photos and reported weight; if you look at the police footage, he looks like he's pretty fit to me, and if he's over 200 lbs, it can't be by much.

        I don't think there was a big physical mismatch here either way; Martin was taller, slimmer, and likely more athletic, but Zimmerman was in pretty good shape himself and likely had a weight advantage of nearly 50 lbs.

        •  apparently 'round still in the chamber' (0+ / 0-)

          which I hear the police verified after cuffing Zimmerman and taking the weapon.  Here's some commentary on the state of the weapon:

          http://shakeypete.blogspot.com/...

          I don't know anything about guns, so I don't know what to believe or not.  Hopefully it will be explained better when the case goes to trial.

          •  well, about a paragraph or two about commentary (0+ / 0-)

            about the state of the weapon, and the rest of the post blathering about the evil liberal media.  Well, I guess conservatives do know their guns.  

            It seems to be pretty widely believed, but I can't seem to find a traditional media source for this, so it might not be true.  Kind of like how people started plastering the wrong Trayvon Martin's pictures all over everything...

            Hopefully this gets cleared up when it goes to trial.

  •  Agreed on all counts. Particularly on the ... (11+ / 0-)

    I-don't-believe-him part.

    Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

    by Meteor Blades on Fri Mar 30, 2012 at 02:00:27 PM PDT

  •  He instigated... (5+ / 0-)

    That should make a legal difference.  

    •  But in a neighborhood where (0+ / 0-)

      a number of burglaries had occurred and young black men had been caught through fingerprints and finding stolen property in their backpacks, a jury may decide that zimmerman had every right to ask Martin what he was doing around there, and Martin should have answered him.

      Here's a scenario for you......we'e been sleeping with the windows open because it's been so warm.  For the last 4 nights, a truck has pulled to the side of the road, in our yard, and sat there for a minute or two, then drove away.  It's stopped at an angle where they can see right into our bedroom window.

      It's always between 10:30 and 11:00 p.m.

      I have gotten up to try to see what kind of truck it is, but by the time I get to a place where I can see, it drives away.

      What would you do?

      •  Close the windows? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        tommyfocus2003

        n/t

      •  Use a high powered flashlight (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        beauchapeau, jayden

        shine it on the truck.  Call LE. It might have been smart to have a neighbor stare out their window at 10:26 or so - OR - get a family member to hide out in a car parked in a driveway across the street.  Damn - so many brilliant choices.  So many things to do - not what you want to hear or read, of course.

      •  I would scope up my AR15... (0+ / 0-)

        (unloaded) And put an LED dot on their hand and trace it to their head.  I actually have successfully thwarted a home invasion into my house by getting into a physical altercation on the porch that spilled out into the yard and neighbors called police.  I would also just straight up ask people what they were doing or I would make small talk with them.  

        All the crime in my old hood wa basically young black males.  But if you are acting shady you can't expect others to not.  Had Zimmerman pulled up to Trayvon and said "excuse me are you suppose to be in this neighborhood?" that would have likely worked.  If he runs at that point no reason to chase.  None. I sympathize with living in fear of crime but if you are going to take action it has to be smart or you will be held culpable.  

  •  Poster boy for the results of Fox Faux Facts. (0+ / 0-)

    I guess it's a drag being the symbol of modern racial inequality - on so many levels - in America.

    Thump! Bang. Whack-boing. It's dub!

    by dadadata on Fri Mar 30, 2012 at 03:23:34 PM PDT

  •  That's kinda the point (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    DemInDisguise, OleHippieChick

    The pro-Zimmerman side is pretty much claiming that Zimmerman had to shoot Martin because he was in danger of grievous physical injury. In fact, that's the only way Zimmerman can legitimately claim self defense in this situation, and even that's not sufficient if he provoked the fight and didn't try to back out of it.

    Of course, what we're seeing now is that Zimmerman was lying about his injuries. Which pretty much means that he has no case.

    As someone who supports the Castle Law, I'm really wishing now that the Second Amendment Foundation et. al. would stop supporting Zimmerman. There are real world examples where the Castle Law did good. Zimmerman doesn't benefit from the Castle Law. He broke the law by deploying more force than he needed to. He killed someone unnecessarily, and he should pay for it.

  •  Well done, bbb... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    fou, libnewsie, OleHippieChick

    The only wrinkle is the bogus statement by Zimmerman's father that Trayvon said something to the effect(to Zimmerman), that you're gonna die tonight.
    But that's nonsense.

    The only people parroting that bullshit are those who want to create a general right to kill black people.
    The kid with the skittles and iced tea said "you're gonna die tonight?"

    o.O

    Let The Wild Rumpus Begin!

    by dclawyer06 on Fri Mar 30, 2012 at 03:52:06 PM PDT

  •  This is bullshit (0+ / 0-)

    Assuming we're really doing this . . .

    Even if I believe everything you guys are telling me . . . Even if I accept everything you folks say
    . . . then you have several misstatements of fact in your "analysis".
    a grown man with a muscle and weight advantage
    The police report listed Martin's at 6'0", 160 lbs. Zimmerman's current size and weight have been listed as 5'8", 170 lbs. A ten pound weight advantage against a four inch height advantage is fairly even. Throw in that we know that Trayvon played football, and that Zimmerman had no particular athletic background, and I think if they met in the ring, odds-makers would probably go with the kid.
    He went looking for the fight
    According to the Orlando Sentinel,
    In his version of events, Zimmerman had turned around and was walking back to his SUV when Trayvon approached him from behind, the two exchanged words and then Trayvon punched him in the nose, sending him to the ground, and began beating him.

    http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/...

    [Zimmerman] should've taken his lumps like a man"

    Zimmerman's brother on Piers Morgan stated that Zimmerman told him that Martin spotted the gun during the scuffle and went for it, verbally threatening to kill him:

    ZIMMERMAN: Well, and -- you know, I take a -- I take a pause to that whole, you know, conjecture, again, of pulled out a gun and shot him. That's absolutely not fact.

    (CROSSTALK)

    MORGAN: That's not what happened, then?

    ZIMMERMAN: No, it is not what happened.

    MORGAN: But he did pull out a gun and shoot him, right?

    ZIMMERMAN: Well, he stopped someone from disarming him and shooting him. He didn't pull out a gun and shoot him. George showed tremendous restraint --

    MORGAN: But he had the gun on him, right?

    ZIMMERMAN: He had a permit to carry that gun --

    MORGAN: Where was the gun?

    ZIMMERMAN: The gun, I believe, was in his -- inside -- tucked inside his pant waist --

    MORGAN: Right.

    ZIMMERMAN: In a waist holster.

    MORGAN: So he has pulled it out and he has fired it?

    ZIMMERMAN: Well, he has taken control of his firearm, he prevented his firearm from being taken from him and used against him. And that's called saving your life.

    MORGAN: Right. So you believe, as a family -- is this what George told you the next day? That Trayvon was trying to grab his gun to use against him?

    ZIMMERMAN: My father also is on record yesterday night saying that. And again, what Trayvon said was, either to the effect of, I believe, this is going to be easy, you die tonight or you have a piece, you die tonight. And then attempted to disarm him. So when you say, "have a bag of Skittles and an iced tea," nobody just stood there with a bag of Skittles and iced tea. You return force with force when somebody assaults you.

    George was out of breath, he was barely conscious, his last thing he remembers doing was moving his head from the concrete to the grass, so that if he was banged one more time he wouldn't be -- you know, wearing diapers for the rest of his life and being spoon fed by his brother, and there would have been George dead had he not acted decisively and instantaneously in that moment when he was being disarmed by --

    http://transcripts.cnn.com/...

    Now, obviously this could be all lies. But if you are going to stipulate to the facts as alleged by Zimmerman and his supporters, these them.
    •  It has been widely reported (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      fou, blueoasis, sukeyna, libnewsie, jayden

      by several sources thatthe brother of George Zimmerman and Mr. Zimmerman had not spoken for years and that they did not speak after the murder.

      What is the point of posting this speculation/story?  

      I worked as a Child ProtectiveInvestigator and Supervisor in two states (MA & FL) for most of my civilian career.  I was an expert witness in Courts in both states - on sexual abuse cases.

      I am convinced George Zimmerman's version of the murder is untrue.  Those suggesting his story is credible (& that of his team- his father and brother) will learn it is not.

      •  Exactly. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        tommyfocus2003
        What is the point of posting this speculation/story?
        Good question.

        Have you googled Romney today?

        by fou on Fri Mar 30, 2012 at 06:05:27 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I posted it because bbb claims in his diary (0+ / 0-)

          to be taking the "speculation/story" of Zimmerman and his supporters at their word. If he's going to do that, then he has to at least accurately portray what it is that they are saying.

      •  The diarist is posits in his diary that he's going (0+ / 0-)

        to take everything that Zimmerman and his supporters are saying as true. I'm glad that you are so able to determine the veracity of Zimmerman's version from behind your computer and television screen, but I am not making any claims one way or another with respect to veracity or even credibility. I was simply relaying that the diarist is mistaken as to the version of the story being told by Zimmerman and his supporters.

  •  Trayvon's death was an execution (5+ / 0-)

    ..and his murderer needs to be apprehended immediately.

    If you can find money to kill people, you can find money to help people. --Tony Benn

    by rhetoricus on Fri Mar 30, 2012 at 06:20:04 PM PDT

  •  A couple of weeks ago I thought that it would (4+ / 0-)

    require "extraordinary evidence" to show Zimmerman to be not quilty of at least manslaughter.  Now it ought to be second degree at the least with all the confirmation that has surfaced that is directly related to the events, as well as the character.

    Unless there is some sort of game being played or strategy of incompetence on the part of his family and "friends" with their absurd apologist rhetoric which mostly further damns him, I can't imagine why anyone here would support him unless they are just being contrarian.  If there is anything that might exonorate, even any credible character witnesses, it should be fairly easy to bring forth.

    Of course, he should and will have a trial and if anything miraculous comes out, so be it.

    99%er. 100% opposed to fundamentalist/neoconservative/neoliberal oligarchs.

    by blueoasis on Fri Mar 30, 2012 at 06:43:01 PM PDT

    •  My Faith (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      blueoasis, labwitchy

      is not placed in any of the upper echelon reactionary racist bureaucrats
      and officials who hold office in the State of Florida,
      nor either is it placed in any of their groveling lickspittal lackeys...

      ! The swinistic greed and racial hatred of the American ruling elite is abysmal !

      by joe wobblie on Fri Mar 30, 2012 at 07:17:36 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Yeah. But it didn't happen (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    libnewsie, aitchdee

    People phoned 911 cause someone was screaming their lungs out. On one of the calls, you can hear like 4 or 5 separate screams of what sounds like "help" over a 40-second time span.

    But how can you do that if you're getting punched in the nose, pinned down on the ground, and getting your head bashed against the sidewalk?

    Zimmerman's brother says:

    George was out of breath, he was barely conscious, his last thing he remembers doing was moving his head from the concrete to the grass, so that if he was banged one more time he wouldn't be
    Seems really hard to scream loudly for 40 seconds if that's the case. And screaming stopped immediately after the gunshot, so we know that Zimmerman, if he was almost unconscious, certainly wasn't the one screaming.  
  •  There are only 2 people (0+ / 0-)

    who know for sure what happened that night, and one of them is dead.      There is a lot of 20/20 hindsight judgement going on about who was innocent and who was guilty, who won and who lost.  

    The only people who lost for sure are Trayvon Martin and his family and friends.   Whatever role (if any) he played in the events that night surely didn't warrant his violent death.

    I hope that there is a trial.  Hopefully a criminal trial will happen, and there should and will almost certainly be a civil trial as the family of Trayvon Martin brings a wrongful death action.  

    The court is the right venue for the arguments to be heard and the judgements to be made.  The time for that judgement will come.  The public doesn't have the information to make a proper judgement on whether a crime occured, or just a tragedy.  Until then, the only thing to do is mourn the death of a young person, a person who didn't deserve to die, to gun violence.  

    "Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one." - Friedrich Nietzsche

    by ActivatedbyBush on Fri Mar 30, 2012 at 08:03:58 PM PDT

    •  At minimum (0+ / 0-)

      we mourn the death of a young man, yes.  But then we must have the people of our country (the US) look at the gun culture - the "wild west" gun and violence enabling NRA/ALEC implemented gun laws - laws so extreme they actually prevent (in FL, my home state) law enforcement from even charging a person who shoots and kills another person if the shooter claims self defense.  If Marco Rubio and Jeb Bush and the Koch bros. and other right wing extremists who have supported, funded and perpetrated such extreme enabling legislation really think these laws are "sensible," then something is terribly awry in the thought processes of those men.  My god, as a parent, as a citizen of the US - and a resident of Florida - I have been afraid ever since 2005 when this first ever ALEC/NRA "Stand Your Ground" law was enacted in Florida.  And the gun lobbyists and the NRA and their supporters even allege that students on college campuses should carry concealed weapons to fight potential or real mass murderers like the shooter at Virginia Tech.  Their delusions are so wild and distorted that they want us to believe such a gun battle would prevent deaths.  This is madness.

  •  The problem may be NOT ENOUGH GUNS. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    catwho, libnewsie

    Yup.  You heard me right.  If Trayvon had had a gun, this might have turned out very differently.  When he saw Zimmerman getting out of that car and coming out of him, if he had a notion Zimmerman had a gun, he could have very rightfully stood his ground and shot him dead.  In self-defense.

    Really, what would be the difference in such a case?  I'm sure all the same people now criticizing Trayvon for wearing a hoodie would criticize dead Zimmerman for looking too this or too that.  "He shouldnta scared the kid so bad!  Of course he got himself killed!"

    So maybe what we need is to start a fund to give free guns to the black kids of Sanford, Florida, so they may rightfully stand and protect themselves should this situation arise again.  After all, child-killer George Zimmerman is still free and walking the same streets as they are, carrying the same gun, with the same mental problems that makes him think he's Charles Bronson in Deathwish.  Maybe if Zimmerman had REALLY had to worry that Trayvon had a gun and could shoot back, he wouldn't have got out of that car and confronted him.

    Somebody should ask the NRA about this, if this might not be the optimal solution to the problem of the resentments springing up over the killing of Trayvon.  I can't see how they could argue against citizens arming themselves to protect their children against a criminal menace.  NRA gun safety training could be mandatory, too, so more bucks for them.

  •  This is a terrible move rhetorically. (0+ / 0-)

    Saying that Zimmerman should have simply taken a potentially life-threatening beating and not use lethal force in response? No way; that's not going to earn you or Martin any credibility with anybody.

    I would use a gun too if I were attacked and I thought my life was in danger. Only fools don't use all the weapons available to them. It demonstrates only stupidity, not courage or fortitude.

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