Skip to main content

Over the last week, the news has been dominated by stories about retaliatory strikes by Israel against Hamas targets in the Gaza strip, and the suffering of the Israeli people as they are warned into safe rooms many have in their homes by Israeli government air raid sirens.  The heart wrenching stories about the emotional pain and suffering of the Israeli people is terribly upsetting, and with its ubiquity in media coverage it is no wonder that the leader of the free world can only re-iterate the position held by American conservatives and liberals alike, that Israel has the right to defend itself.

However, to those of us who regularly keep abreast of events occurring around the globe, there are common themes throughout the media coverage of the "conflict" that give one pause.  Anyone who has kids has heard "he started it" or "she started it," but when those exact sentiments are being put forth by the information ministry of one side of the "conflict" and unquestioningly echoed by the major news outlets, one has to start to question - the same as we would with our children - whether the information we're being given actually tells the full story.

A person's views are merely a product of the information from which they are drawing their conclusions, so we're only as good as the information we're given.  The reality is that we are being given only a very small part of the story in relation to this "conflict" so it comes as no surprise that the information to follow in this post will be upsetting to some.  For that I cannot apologize, because one should never apologize for speaking the truth, however uncomfortable that truth may be.

Why we should question the overwhelming focus on Palestinian rockets

When stories from Fox News and The New York Times are providing an identical viewpoint, namely that Israel is merely defending itself against rocket attacks from Palestine, with both news organisations basing their reporting on the same Israeli government sources, one must start to question whether we're actually being given the full story.

When one of the most advanced and powerful militaries of the world - the IDF, supplied and financed by US taxpayer money, equipped with F-15 and F-16 jets, a missile defence system, Apache and Cobra helicopter gunships, a fleet of US-designed drones, an arsenal of nuclear weapons and literally billions of dollars of firepower - so consistently repeats that low-yield un-steerable primitive rockets are a grave threat to the people of Israel, a critical mind would question how big of a threat those rockets could pose to such an immense "defence" structure.  The reality is startling.

Since 2000, reports conclude that these rockets have killed somewhere between 25 and 61 Israelis.  These are lives that should not have been lost, and I absolutely agree that rocket attacks on Israel by militants should stop.  My heart goes out to the three Israelis who lost their lives earlier this week to just such an attack.

However, over the same period, 2000-present, the IDF - with their myriad of weapons - have killed roughly 6,000 Palestinians.  From a numerical standpoint, what is the biggest threat here?  Is something that has caused the deaths of 60 people so much more of a threat than something that has caused the deaths of 6000 people, thus requiring the vast majority of coverage in relation to this on-going conflict?

It is also important here to again note that I do not in any way wish to disparage Israeli casualties. Over the 2000-present period referenced above,  over 1,000 Israelis have been killed by Palestinians.  As any other human being with a conscience, I mourn the loss of their lives.  However, no human being with a conscience should allow themselves to forget that over that same period 1,477 Palestinian children have also been killed.  All human lives should be considered equal, and no amount of media focus on the suffering of one side of a "conflict" should allow us to forget the immense suffering of those on the other side of that "conflict".

Current "conflict" in context

Only a few weeks ago the UN outlined how Gaza will be uninhabitable by 2020.  The cause of this situation is made abundantly clear in the report; the blockade of Gaza by the IDF under the pretext of "defence" has made the Gaza economy "fundamentally unviable".  The report came to the following conclusion:

It is essential that the inhabitants of Gaza are able to exercise and enjoy the full range of fundamental human rights to which they are entitled. They must be able to live safe and secure lives free of the various forms of violence which afflict them at present; benefit from proper health care, education and housing; elect and hold accountable representatives of government; be subject to fair and impartial justice; and have ready access to the world beyond Gaza for religious, educational, medical, cultural, commercial and other purposes.
In short the Palestinian people of Gaza must be enabled to live dignified, healthy and productive lives in peace and security, both now and in the future.
The fact that the US finances the Israeli blockade of Gaza to the tune of $3 billion a year makes facing the suffering of the people of Gaza very difficult for Americans in particular.  It is therefore not surprising that we Americans are prone to accepting Israel's assertions in relation to what has been happening and what is happening now, namely that Israel is under attack and defending itself accordingly.

Mainstream media spin

An open letter last weekend signed by linguists including Noam Chomsky acknowledge this reality.  The letter states the following:

Bias and dishonesty with respect to the oppression of Palestinians is nothing new in Western media and has been widely documented. Nevertheless, Israel continues its crimes against humanity with full acquiescence and financial, military, and moral support from our governments, the U.S., Canada and the EU.
The letter outlines how the specific chain of events that brought about this escalation of "conflict" continues to be thoroughly misrepresented in the media.  Every major news outlet in the US asserts that the Israeli attacks are in response to rockets from Gaza.  In the words of John Glasner on Antiwar.com:
As in every vicious military offensive Israel carries out in Gaza, the dominant narrative is that it is a response to rocket fire from Gaza into southern Israel. This is how it’s being reported in the US, and this is how virtually every American understands it.
And it’s a lie.
How this latest “conflict” actually came about

Contrary to what the media is reporting, the current flare-up did not start from rockets fired around the 14th of November; rather it began on November 5th, when mentally ill Ahmad Nabhani was shot by the IDF for approaching the border fence with Israel. (The discussion of how this fence makes Gaza the world's largest open-air-prison will be left for another day)

In response to the perceived "threat" from the man shot on the fifth, IDF tanks and helicopter gunships entered Gaza on 8th November - this time, the "threat" they confronted and killed was a 13 year old boy playing soccer with his friends.

On November 10th rockets were then fired by dissidents in Gaza - an attack that injured 3 IDF soldiers, but that was not carried out by Hamas; rather carried out in spite of a cease-fire being maintained by "Israel's sub-contractor" in Gaza, Hamas leader Ahmed Jabari, who had been steadfast in exerting his influence to dissuade members of Hamas as well as other dissident groups from carrying out retaliatory attacks.

The next step in the escalation is well documented - Jabari was killed by an IDF airstrike, signalling the start of what would become "Operation Pillar of Defense".

It is logical to conclude from this chain of events that the Israeli government endeavoured to provoke a response from Hamas, going so far as to (in their own words) "eliminate" the man standing in the way of a Hamas response.

The focus on rockets hide war crimes being carried out by Israel

While the media focuses on rockets from Gaza, Google news offers an array of stories from Israel but none from Palestine in the "real-time" coverage on their US site, and every major news organization in the US regurgitates Israeli government talking points as though they were facts, the punishment of the people of Gaza continues unabated.

The words of Canadian resident of the West Bank Diana Buttu serve to explain the situation:

It is with horror that I watch the latest events in Gaza unfold. As a Canadian based in the West Bank who once lived in Gaza, I know the fear that is currently running through the veins of each man, woman and especially child as they face Israel’s unrelenting aerial and naval bombardment. My time in Gaza was marked by long periods of aerial bombings and sonic booms. I still– 6 years later – live with those horrible memories and the sheer sense of helplessness and hopelessness that ensued.
Though all people of conscience mourn the loss of the 3 Israeli civilians killed since Wednesday by a rocket, we cannot allow that and the on-going rocket fire to blind us to the fact that over that same period of time 40 Palestinians have been killed - among them 8 children and a pregnant woman – and 393 others have been injured.  

Israel spends millions of dollars every year on their hasbra (propaganda) campaign, as is often documented. There are undoubtedly those on this site who are on the payroll of PR firms contracted to Israel, as well as those who get their information from same, who will make the unsubstantiated claim that the Palestinian casualties were human shields – an assertion for which evidence is never given, but which is made often enough for people to start believing it.  To those who will make those assertions, I ask this – at any given time, there are thousands of murders unsolved in New York City, thus there logically must be at a very minimum a few hundred murderers loose in New York – shall we start bombing entire NY neighborhoods because there might be suspected criminals there, and blame any residents killed for having the audacity to be in that area in the first place?  To those who will echo the assertions made by the Israeli government that the IDF is carrying out “surgical strikes” on “terrorist targets” I ask this: what do you consider surgery?  Is removing the lungs of a patient part of a surgery to fix a ruptured spleen?  If not, then why does the IDF scalpel cut from the mortal coil the 11 month old son of a BBC reporter?  Were Fares Basyouni(9) and Uday Naser (16) tumors for the IDF scalpel to cut?  These are human lives, young people who were killed by US-funded IDF bombs, dropped by young men and women conscripted into being Israeli soldiers, young people whose government has decided to turn them into murderers.

What is incredibly disturbing about the on-going bombardment is how the attacks being carried out on Gaza affect the whole of the society.  The bombings that have occurred every night over the past week, that have the entire population hiding in their homes for fear of being killed, 700,000 without power, and every last vestige of functioning society – including police stations – being targeted.  While Israelis complain that they have to go to their safe rooms periodically due to the government sounding air-raid sirens, people in Gaza – like Mohammed Sulaiman, cut off in the middle of an interview by a bomb blast -  who have no safe room to hide in, are facing a barrage from weaponry far numerous and superior to anything that could come from Gaza, a region with no Army, Navy, or Air Force.  The people of Gaza are defenseless, and the only thing they have done that could serve as justification for the bombing of their homes and neighborhoods is that they are locked into a densely populated confined space in which also live individuals who can see no peace with the foreign government that has imprisoned them.

Last night the IDF targeted government buildings in Gaza.  The explanation given is that Hamas are the government, and the Israeli government decries Hamas as terrorists (much the same as Hitler did with his adversaries in 1933) - is this not the very dictionary definition of committing acts of terrorism, which is “The use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims”?  How could the bombing of a government building or the home of a Prime Minister be apolitical?

There is a reason why collective punishment was outlawed by the Geneva Conventions, banning the attacking of civilians by an occupying power.  Sadly, collective punishment is exactly what is being carried out by Israeli forces - as Manar Hijaz explains:

The magnitude of Israel's so-called acts of rocket fire retaliation, do not amount to a justified “self-defense” response. Israel's military track record clearly illustrates a complete disregard for the Fourth Geneva Convention laws, which extend protection to civilian populations in an armed conflict (this includes occupied territories).
In the words of Israeli General Gadi Eisenkot, “We will wield disproportionate power against every village from which shots are fired on Israel, and cause immense damage and destruction. This isn't a suggestion. This is a plan that has already been authorized.”

The overwhelming violence is aimed at creating a culture of fear and terror in Gaza.  In the midst of the ongoing aerial campaign, the IDF texted thousands of Palestinians with the following chilling warning: "The next phase is on the way."  Raji Sourani reports via Al Jazeera that "The streets [of Gaza] are deserted as people are too afraid to move."  This is the same place that the government of Israel has been actively working to ensure remains in poverty, per cables released by Wikileaks:

"As part of their overall embargo plan against Gaza, Israeli officials have confirmed to (U.S. embassy economic officers) on multiple occasions that they intend to keep the Gazan economy on the brink of collapse without quite pushing it over the edge,"
The current situation is the continuation of this same policy of collective punishment - the word conflict is used in quotes above because conflict insinuates that this is a two-sided fight; it is not.  The bombing and terror campaign being carried out on Gaza allegedly because of rockets fired into Israel is equivalent to burning down a forest because of having gotten bitten by a mosquito.

However, Israel is not carrying out this latest collective punishment of the people of Gaza for any ideological anti-muslim purpose as extremists may try to claim, but they do have some apparent ulterior motives.  

The true motives of Netanyahu's government

Israeli policy experts widely agree that no offensive by Israel will do away with Hamas, and in fact is most likely to strengthen Hamas' control of Gaza.  If Operation Cast Lead did not weaken Hamas, then Pillar of Defense isn't likely to either.  With the logical conclusion that the escalation to the current state of violence was encouraged on its way by the Israeli government, and they will not be able to do away with their alleged enemy of Hamas with this maneuver, we have to look at other motivations for the Israeli government to go after the population and government institutions in Palestine.

On November 29th - just under 2 weeks from now - the UN general assembly will decide upon whether to grant Palestine status as a member of the UN.  In January to come, the people of Israel will go to the polls and vote on who will be the prime minister in the years to follow.  When the government has an excuse to scare its own population - with constant air-raid sirens, much like the use of sound in Pavlovian conditioning - into a state of fear (which often leads to an upsurge in support for more hawkish political masters, as was proven by George Bush in 2004), and to simultaneously scare the population of an intransigent neighbor who dares to resist the continuing colonization of their lands by going over their heads to an international body, how could they pass up such an opportunity?

Violence and invasion are not the answer

Don't let yourself buy into the torrent of one-sided information presented by so much of the media, and instead listen to the words of a resident of Kibbutz Kfar Aza (via Haaretz):

The first thing I want to say is: Please don’t defend me. Not like this.

I am sitting in my safe room in Kibbutz Kfar Aza and listening to the bombardment of the all-out war outside. I am no longer able to distinguish between “our” bombardments and “theirs." The truth is that the kibbutz children do this better than I do, their “musical ear” having been developed since they were very young, and they are able to differentiate between an artillery shell and a missile fired from a helicopter and between a mortar bomb and a Qassam. Good for them.

Is this what “defending the home” looks like? I don’t understand – did all our leaders sleep through their history classes? Or maybe they studied the Mapai school curriculum or that of Education Minister Gideon Sa’ar (to my regret, the difference is not all that great) – and have wrongly interpreted the word “defense”? Does defending the well being of citizens mean a war of armageddon every few years? Hasn’t any politician ever heard of the expression “long-term planning?"
...
I know that most of the public will accuse me of being a “bleeding heart.” But I am the one who is sitting here now as mortar bombs fall in my yard, not Sa’ar, not Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and not Labor MK Shelly Yacimovich or Yesh Atid party head Yair Lapid, either. I am the one who has chosen to raise her children here even though I had and still have other options.

It is possible to accuse me of a lack of Zionism, it is possible to accuse me of flabbiness and weak-mindedness but it is impossible to accuse me of hypocrisy. My children have served in combat units in addition to their contribution of “year of service” for the country, voluntarily. We live here and we love this country.

Our war is a war for the coloration of the state, not its borders. For its democratic nature and for human dignity in it. For sanity. So please stop killing civilians on the other side of the fence in order to defend me.
...
Instead of Operation Pillar of Defense embark on Operation Hope for the Future. This is more complicated, you need more patience and it is less popular – but it is the only way out.

There is one thing we cannot allow ourselves to forget: human lives are human lives.  Whether they're from one side of the Gaza wall or the other, they are people and they are suffering.  Even when our media disregards them, we cannot let ourselves ignore or forget the immense punishment being inflicted upon men, women, and children within the prison walls of Gaza.

Sun Nov 18, 2012 at 7:48 AM PT: Update 11/18 - I see that the Obama administration once again voiced its support for Israeli strikes on Gaza even as the IDF actively targeted the offices of news media in Gaza.

Meanwhile a different type of statement - from Noam Chomsky - pointed out that the Israeli offensive "is not about stopping rocket fire into Israel" and "is not a war, it is murder."

Some honesty from the Israeli interior ministry with the admission that their goal is to "send Gaza back to the Middle Ages"

Meanwhile Haaretz carried a good op/ed asking for people of both Gaza and Israel to not let their governments continue to push the ongoing campaign of violence.

There are some absolutely horrific images, but I won't be sharing them and as I noted in the comments I hope my words speak for themselves.

EMAIL TO A FRIEND X
Your Email has been sent.
You must add at least one tag to this diary before publishing it.

Add keywords that describe this diary. Separate multiple keywords with commas.
Tagging tips - Search For Tags - Browse For Tags

?

More Tagging tips:

A tag is a way to search for this diary. If someone is searching for "Barack Obama," is this a diary they'd be trying to find?

Use a person's full name, without any title. Senator Obama may become President Obama, and Michelle Obama might run for office.

If your diary covers an election or elected official, use election tags, which are generally the state abbreviation followed by the office. CA-01 is the first district House seat. CA-Sen covers both senate races. NY-GOV covers the New York governor's race.

Tags do not compound: that is, "education reform" is a completely different tag from "education". A tag like "reform" alone is probably not meaningful.

Consider if one or more of these tags fits your diary: Civil Rights, Community, Congress, Culture, Economy, Education, Elections, Energy, Environment, Health Care, International, Labor, Law, Media, Meta, National Security, Science, Transportation, or White House. If your diary is specific to a state, consider adding the state (California, Texas, etc). Keep in mind, though, that there are many wonderful and important diaries that don't fit in any of these tags. Don't worry if yours doesn't.

You can add a private note to this diary when hotlisting it:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary from your hotlist?
Are you sure you want to remove your recommendation? You can only recommend a diary once, so you will not be able to re-recommend it afterwards.
Rescue this diary, and add a note:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary from Rescue?
Choose where to republish this diary. The diary will be added to the queue for that group. Publish it from the queue to make it appear.

You must be a member of a group to use this feature.

Add a quick update to your diary without changing the diary itself:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary?
(The diary will be removed from the site and returned to your drafts for further editing.)
(The diary will be removed.)
Are you sure you want to save these changes to the published diary?

Comment Preferences

  •  for human dignity (12+ / 0-)

    for sanity. I can get behind that.

    Our war is a war for the coloration of the state, not its borders. For its democratic nature and for human dignity in it. For sanity. So please stop killing civilians on the other side of the fence in order to defend me.
  •  I hope millions of American Jews join me, an (20+ / 0-)

    American Jew, who is appalled, sickened and disgusted by Israel's unprovoked slaughter of HUMAN BEINGS in the Gaza strip.  I have Orthodox ex-friends here in America who advocate a "final solution" of their own in regards to all "Arabs.". That's fascism writ large, my fellow Americans, and I don't care who advocates it.  They, including Israelis, become my enemies when they embrace these attacks on the Gaza strip and I condemn their actions.  Please join me and tell Israel to END THIS SLAUGHTER IMMEDIATELY!

    Best. President. Ever.

    by Little Lulu on Sat Nov 17, 2012 at 03:46:33 PM PST

    •  I wish.. (6+ / 0-)

      I wish that so many Jewish people had not been so successfully convinced that Israel = Judaism, and because of that now think they must agree with - or at least not criticize - the actions of an Israeli government whose political leanings are closer to the Golden Dawn in Greece than they are to the Democratic Party.  I wish that so many people weren't easily manipulated into seeing all Palestinians as "the bad guy" just because they pray different from us and their skin is a little darker.  And I wish that peace didn't seem like such an impossible dream sometimes...
      Thank you for your kind words;  Maybe someday enough of us will speak up and speak out and we can put an end to this unnecessary suffering...

      •  Little Lulu and misneach, please be assured that (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        bluedust, ZenTrainer, misneach, WakeUpNeo

        many of us who are neither Jewish nor Arab have nevertheless followed as closely as possible the tragic events in the region, have read and do read widely beyond the MSM, and stand with both the many American Jews and the many people of Israel who abhor the massacres perpetrated by the Israeli rightwing. Our feeling of helplessness is heightened by the prospect of a Likud Beiteinu coalition party. I am filled with fear and dread. We must all raise our voices now, not only here, but also to President Obama who does, I believe, understand.  

        “Social Security has nothing to do with balancing a budget or erasing or lowering the deficit.” -- Ronald Reagan, 1984 debate with Walter Mondale

        by RJDixon74135 on Sat Nov 17, 2012 at 06:52:49 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Love and peace and justice to the people of Gaza. (7+ / 0-)
    •  900 missiles lobed into Israel. Body count? If (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      greytdog

      it wasn't for the Iron Dome and other protections, maybe Israel would have as many dead and injured. Would that satisfy everyone?

      From what I've read, Hamas doesn't even provide warning sirens for it's citizens.

      With all the money other Middle Eastern countries and the UN has poured into Gaza, the citizens should be angry as hell that they live in such circumstances.

      OTOH, the West Bank has been pretty peaceful and their GDP is growing giving their citizens a better way of life.

      From Wiki

      In 2007, the economy in the West Bank improved gradually. Economic growth for the occupied areas reached about 4-5% and unemployment dropped about 3%. Israeli figures indicated that wages in the West Bank rose more than 20% in 2008 and trade rose about 35%. Tourism in Bethlehem increased to about twice its previous levels, and tourism increased by 50% in Jericho.[16] Life expectancy is 73.4, placing the territories 77th in the world, compared with a life expectancy of 72.5 in Jordan, and 71.8 in Turkey.[17]

      In 2011, the Palestinian Planning Minister said that GDP growth was expected to reach 9 percent, rising to 10 percent in 2012 and 12 percent in 2013.[29]
      There are even joint business ventures between the West  Bank and Israel further helping the economy.

      The main purpose of a national government is to protect it's people.

      Would love to see 2 state solution, but it does take 2 (or more) to make this happen. Rockets being aimed at you (whether creating chaos or not) is not a first handshake.

      It’s the Supreme Court, stupid! Followed by: It's always the Supreme Court! Progressives will win only when we convince a majority that they, too, are Progressive.

      by auapplemac on Sun Nov 18, 2012 at 01:28:37 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  point: missed (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Diane Gee, bluedust, akmk

        I understand why you are obsessed with the rockets - reading the news, how could you not be.  I think I made my condemnation of the rockets clear.

        However, you have entirely missed the point, whether intentionally or otherwise.  There is no excuse for the violence being waged against the people of Gaza - none.

        When you blame the people of Gaza for their own suffering you merely serve to prove one of the points I was making - the propaganda is working, and people are wrongly excusing war crimes committed by the government of Israel because of that propaganda.

        In relation to your assertions about the West Bank's economy improving, I must point out that the West Bank is under full occupation - the economic growth comes from military-protected Israeli settlements that were built on land bulldozed by the IDF then re-settled by Israelis.  This is normally called "ethnic cleansing" - in Germany some time ago it was called "lebensraum."

        Once again, thank you for proving that the propaganda to which I refer constantly above is working.

  •  Thank you for this piece, (4+ / 0-)

    it was very informative which is invaluable in such a grave time.

  •  Israeli right wingers often target (9+ / 0-)

    the most moderate, not the most militant. The former create the risk that racist, religious nutbags on both sides might be sidelined in an effort to forge a real peace.

    The latter are politically useful to murdering bastards like Netanyahu and Avigdor Lieberman.

    Jaabari, according to several sources, was participating with Egyptian and other interlocutors in talks for a more permanent truce... one of the reasons he may have exposed himself (and his 14-year-old son) to danger.



    Those who do not move, do not notice their chains. Rosa Luxemburg

    by chuckvw on Sat Nov 17, 2012 at 04:11:15 PM PST

  •  Thank you for writing this. (6+ / 0-)

    This is the point of view I have been looking for as I search the news media reports.

  •  Why? (5+ / 0-)

    Why does the US have to always take Isreal's side in this conflict.  We should go back to the days of Jimmy Carter where we were more of an honest broker of PEACE!  

    "Some men see things as they are and ask, 'Why?' I dream of things that never were and ask, 'Why not?"

    by Doctor Who on Sat Nov 17, 2012 at 04:28:14 PM PST

    •  And that resulted in creating peace between (0+ / 0-)

      Palestinians and Israelis?

      It’s the Supreme Court, stupid! Followed by: It's always the Supreme Court! Progressives will win only when we convince a majority that they, too, are Progressive.

      by auapplemac on Sun Nov 18, 2012 at 01:30:42 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Okay, tough guy, go live in Sderot. (5+ / 0-)

    "When one of the most advanced and powerful militaries of the world - the IDF, supplied and financed by US taxpayer money, equipped with F-15 and F-16 jets, a missile defence system, Apache and Cobra helicopter gunships, a fleet of US-designed drones, an arsenal of nuclear weapons and literally billions of dollars of firepower "

    Indeed, enough firepower to wipe out Gaza entirely.

    Notice that firepower has not been put to such use. Unlike Syria, where far less fancy firepower has been used to a far more murderous
     extent.

    "- so consistently repeats that low-yield un-steerable primitive rockets are a grave threat to the people of Israel, a critical mind would question how big of a threat those rockets could pose to such an immense "defence" structure.  "

    Low yield. Unsteerable. And when they hit you, this is what happens. If you're lucky. Israel has every right to use force to compel Hamas to end the rocket campaign.

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/...

    •  try actually reading the post? (5+ / 0-)

      your responses make it clear that you have not actually read the story above, or at least you have not understood it.  I feel sorry for you in that you seem so offended by a challenge to your propagandized mind that you feel the need to fall back on the very same talking points this whole article was about.  propagandized masses are what enable the most horrendous murderers of history - stalin, mao, hitler - to carry out their horrendous acts.  it saddens me to see people so easily manipulated still exist.
      try actually reading this entry, or stop trolling it. you're wasting your time.

      •  If your post contains more drivel like what I ... (3+ / 0-)

        ...excertped, why should I bother?

        Notice you dodge the point entirely. You bring up something totally irrelevant: IDF has F-16s! the horror! as if it in any way makes what Hamas is doing acceptable. As I am pointing out, those rockets kill and maim. And that gives Israel every right to use force to compel Hamas to cease firing those rockets.  

        The FBI outguns the KKK too nowadays.

    •  With regard to this: (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      indie17, misneach, WakeUpNeo
      Israel has every right to use force to compel Hamas to end the rocket campaign.
      The argument is not about whether Hamas should end the rocket campaign, but rather whether killing more innocent civilians including women and children in Gaza will bring about peace.

      “Social Security has nothing to do with balancing a budget or erasing or lowering the deficit.” -- Ronald Reagan, 1984 debate with Walter Mondale

      by RJDixon74135 on Sat Nov 17, 2012 at 07:08:13 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  About those rockets. (5+ / 0-)

    This is what they do to you if they land too close to you.

  •  More of your inane drivel. (4+ / 0-)

    "However, over the same period, 2000-present, the IDF - with their myriad of weapons - have killed roughly 6,000 Palestinians.  "

    The US killed far more Germans in WW2 than the Germans killed Americans.

    The FBI kills more Klansmen than the other way around.

    If you want something more extreme, in the last year, the IDF killed more than 100 members of Hamas's rocket squad, right before or right after a rocket launch. How many did the rocketeers succeed in killing at the time? That's right: 0.

    In your perverted logic, that means the rocket teams had the moral high ground.

    That body count means nothing about who is right or wrong. Just because Hamas is outgunned doesn't mean they are not a gang of murderous theocrats, and doesn't mean the IDF lacks the moral high ground against Hamas. (Then again, it's not hard to capture the moral high ground against such scum as Hamas.)

    •  Case in point. (4+ / 0-)

      This poster clearly illustrates those whom are blinded by the propaganda.

      This is what it sounds like to justify killing children.

      Dude, the emperor has no clothes.

      •  Speaking of case in point..... (3+ / 0-)

        Your post is what it sounds like when people try to justify the rocketing of civilians. Does that bother you? Are you ok with 100's of rockets dropping on civilian areas of Israel? With people living in shelters 24/7 or constantly having to run for their lives?

        Now don't say.... "Well Israel does this or that" and "The people of Gaza suffer this or that"... I want to know - how do you feel about the rockets hitting Israeli civilian targets. Period.

        "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

        by volleyboy1 on Sat Nov 17, 2012 at 07:57:36 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I have tried to get people to acknowledge (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          volleyboy1, word is bond

          this simple and irrefutable truth. Rockets are being targeted and fired at civilians.

          But they refuse to believe their own eyes.

          Sad that the Republican bubble has expanded.

          •  If the rockets and those who plan their firings (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            volleyboy1, JNEREBEL

            are in the towns were civilians live, then Hamas has to take responsibility for putting it's citizens in harms way.

            it happened to Berlin, Dresden and hundreds of other towns and cities during WWII. How would you have handled stopping that war when the other side would not sue for peace?

            It’s the Supreme Court, stupid! Followed by: It's always the Supreme Court! Progressives will win only when we convince a majority that they, too, are Progressive.

            by auapplemac on Sun Nov 18, 2012 at 01:39:39 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  I addressed that, above (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          bluedust

          with full condemnation.  I abhor the rockets.  However, their firing does NOT justify the scale of genocidal violence being perpetrated by the IDF against the people of Gaza.  That is my point.  

          Please actually read the post before you pick out small bits of it and start trolling.

          •  Geneocide.... Are you kidding me? For the amount (0+ / 0-)

            of ordinance fired - Genocide is the farthest thing from the truth.

            Then why regarding this are you NOT in full throated demand that Hamas cease the rocketing of civilian areas, rocketing that started this whole thing?

            "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

            by volleyboy1 on Sun Nov 18, 2012 at 09:59:07 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  Rockets: bad (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          misneach

          Rockets at civilians: bad
          Killing Israelis: bad
          Killing Palestinians: bad
          Disproportionate retaliation: bad
          Punishing entire population: bad and illegal
          Settlements in West Bank: bad and illegal

          Do the words "fish in a barrel" have any meaning?

          If one believes that Israeli children are more valuable than Palestinian children, one can justify the disproportionate retaliation against the Palestinians in Gaza.  If one puts equal value on them, not so much.  And that doesn't make anyone anti-semitic either.  

          I don't want the US to fund anymore of this bullshit.  Let the Israelis pay for their own damn wars.  Israel has lost my support, and I am not alone.

      •  I guess the little boy above is not a child. (0+ / 0-)

        It’s the Supreme Court, stupid! Followed by: It's always the Supreme Court! Progressives will win only when we convince a majority that they, too, are Progressive.

        by auapplemac on Sun Nov 18, 2012 at 01:35:35 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  rocket condemnation & propaganda pictures (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          WakeUpNeo, bluedust

          My condemnation of the rockets is made multiple times in this piece - my point is that violent acts by few do not justify violent acts against many.

          I refrained from posting pictures of wounded and killed children from Gaza, and I still plan to because I do not wish to detract from the written point I was trying to make and feel that by posting some of the myriad of horrific images from Gaza I would be going down the route of propaganda myself; however I must note that I would have hoped your sympathy would extend to them the same as my sympathy extends to the young man pictured above.

  •  so riddle me this (0+ / 0-)

    let's say you're a skilled boxer, and some little guy (these analogies are taken from your own setup, by numbers) keeps whacking you across the head, annoyingly.

    at which point would you consider that you've had enough and punch his lights out? and would that be a 'disproportionate' response?

    your multiple other points are about as silly, such as

    Israel spends millions of dollars every year on their hasbra (propaganda) campaign, as is often documented.
    O yeah, that makes Israel so singularly unique; nobody employs PR tactics, surely, no other nations, organizations, corporations, etc.
     The explanation given is that Hamas are the government, and the Israeli government decries Hamas as terrorists (much the same as Hitler did with his adversaries in 1933) - is this not the very dictionary definition of committing acts of terrorism, which is “The use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims”?
    Heh heh heh, you said Hitler heh heh, I mean, you just did like a reverse Clausewitz or something?
    •  so human lives are worth what? (0+ / 0-)

      I am sorry to see that you seem to feel Palestinian lives are worth less than Israeli lives.  For me all human life is sacred, and we should not allow ourselves to make excuses for killing just because we feel more kinship for one side or another or are more impressed with one side's firepower than another's (whether that's because of propaganda, political/religious views, or simply racism - not such which poison is yours).

      •  ah (0+ / 0-)
        whether that's because of propaganda, political/religious views, or simply racism
        I believe you didn't fully read my question as posed. Could you respond to it?
        •  i did... (0+ / 0-)

          I did, and I did.  I'm again sorry to see that you feel Israel's military might (the "skilled boxer") justifies war crimes (read me: fourth geneva convention).

          A more apt comparison would be if the skilled boxer had tied up the little guy and was feeding him only enough to keep him from starvation, and after some time of this the little guy got fed up and spat at the boxer out of frustration, then got mercilessly beaten for it.

          •  You did not answer the question (0+ / 0-)

            At which point do you consider a response proportionate? I do not see how GCIV applies for this is not a case of total war, as I posited in my comparison.

            But then again

            A more apt comparison would be if the skilled boxer had tied up the little guy and was feeding him only enough to keep him from starvation, and after some time of this the little guy got fed up and spat at the boxer out of frustration, then got mercilessly beaten for it
            Do you want to debate how that little guy got to that point, or you have your mind made up?
            •  again... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              bluedust

              ...you are justifying the unjustifiable. just listen to yourself, trying to make the suffering sound justified, even righteous.  In the story you made up and I expanded upon, you make it clear you think the fictional subject must have done something to deserve being tortured.  I do not agree, I believe disregard for human rights, human dignity, and human life is unconscionable.

              Throughout history many murderous armies have been enabled by people who justify their actions just as you are.  I cannot say whether you are employed to spread hate - like the people who put up the racist "civilized man vs. savage" advertisements in the NY subway - or whether you just believe the propaganda, but either way I am saddened by your lack of compassion.

              •  Please find a mirror. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                debedb

                No one can rationally justify the targeting of civilians in Israel as legitimate targets of war.

                Yet here we are.

              •  right (0+ / 0-)
                I cannot say whether you are employed to spread hate - like the people who put up the racist "civilized man vs. savage" advertisements in the NY subway - or whether you just believe the propaganda,
                What propaganda, exactly? You did not answer the analogy. At which point can Israel respond to rocket attacks militarily? Or anyone else in the world can, but not Israel?

                What, exactly, do you want them to do?

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site