Skip to main content

Activists are reporting that the Assad regime is currently carrying out a new massacre in Homs. The current death toll in Homs is said to be 220 and counting as Al Arabiya reports:

At least 150 charred corpses found in Homs: activists

Sat Dec 29, 2012 20:27 pm (KSA) 17:27 pm (GMT)

At least 150 charred corpses were found Saturday in Deir Baalba in Homs, the Shaam Network reported as violence flared in other parts of Syria.

Earlie,r Syrian regime forces killed 20 people in a town near Aleppo, raising the nationwide death toll to more than 100, according to activist media.

Sana Revolution reported the “massacre” took place in Khamsya town near Aleppo. The Coordination Committees reported that more than 100 were killed in the country.

The fighting in Aleppo forced Syria’s national airline to cancel a flight into the city.
 More...

Follow clayclai on Twitter

6:32 PM PT:

France24 is now carrying this report:

Assad forces 'take district of Syria's Homs'



29 December 2012 - 12H42

AFP - Forces loyal to Syria's President Bashar al-Assad on Saturday seized a district of the central city of Homs after a fierce assault that sparked a humanitarian crisis, a watchdog said.

"The army launched an offensive several days ago on the neighbourhood of Deir Baalbeh with heavy bombing, and the fighting and attacks continued until the rebels withdrew," said the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights.

The Britain-based watchdog, which relies on a large network of activists and medics on the ground, said that several other rebel districts, long under siege by the army, were still holding the troops at bay.

It said that the fighting had triggered a humanitarian crisis in the city, referred to by anti-regime activists as "the capital of the revolution."

Homs, a longtime industrial heartland, was the target of a major army offensive in February that left 700 people killed, the majority civilians. More...


 
#Syria #Homs

tonight,in AlZaatari refugee camp...a little girl passed away..the kid FROZEN TO DEATH...

her name is NADA ALHRAKI...she is nine months old.

the angel... her soul crossed the border to join our 397 martyrs.

collective refuge to Heaven

EAWorldView had this report on Homs:

2137 GMT: Syria. Activists are claiming, supported by video of bodies, that five children and two women were among 10 people killed by shelling of the Damascus suburb of Douma today.

1829 GMT: Syria. The Local Coordination Committees is now including 220 people "field-executed" in the Deir Baalba section of Homs (see 1749 GMT) in its claim of 364 victims today.

The Committees write more than 20 children and 20 women are among today's deaths.

1749 GMT: Syria. The Local Coordination Committees report that 146 people have been killed today, including 45 in Damascus and its suburbs, 38 in Aleppo Province, and 20 in Deir Ez Zor Province.

The total could soar, however. The LCC claim 220 people were slain in the Deir Baalba section of Homs as regime forces moved into the area. The organisation asserts that victims were allowed to pass through the "Petrochemistry checkpoint", but were then arrested near the university and field-executed.

1641 GMT: Syria. Reuters, citing activists, reports that regime forces have made advances in Homs, moving into Deir Baalba on the northeastern edge.

Insurgents now hold only central areas around the old city and the district of Khalidiyah, immediately to the north.

Click here for a list of my other Daily Kos dairies on Syria

EMAIL TO A FRIEND X
Your Email has been sent.
You must add at least one tag to this diary before publishing it.

Add keywords that describe this diary. Separate multiple keywords with commas.
Tagging tips - Search For Tags - Browse For Tags

?

More Tagging tips:

A tag is a way to search for this diary. If someone is searching for "Barack Obama," is this a diary they'd be trying to find?

Use a person's full name, without any title. Senator Obama may become President Obama, and Michelle Obama might run for office.

If your diary covers an election or elected official, use election tags, which are generally the state abbreviation followed by the office. CA-01 is the first district House seat. CA-Sen covers both senate races. NY-GOV covers the New York governor's race.

Tags do not compound: that is, "education reform" is a completely different tag from "education". A tag like "reform" alone is probably not meaningful.

Consider if one or more of these tags fits your diary: Civil Rights, Community, Congress, Culture, Economy, Education, Elections, Energy, Environment, Health Care, International, Labor, Law, Media, Meta, National Security, Science, Transportation, or White House. If your diary is specific to a state, consider adding the state (California, Texas, etc). Keep in mind, though, that there are many wonderful and important diaries that don't fit in any of these tags. Don't worry if yours doesn't.

You can add a private note to this diary when hotlisting it:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary from your hotlist?
Are you sure you want to remove your recommendation? You can only recommend a diary once, so you will not be able to re-recommend it afterwards.
Rescue this diary, and add a note:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary from Rescue?
Choose where to republish this diary. The diary will be added to the queue for that group. Publish it from the queue to make it appear.

You must be a member of a group to use this feature.

Add a quick update to your diary without changing the diary itself:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary?
(The diary will be removed from the site and returned to your drafts for further editing.)
(The diary will be removed.)
Are you sure you want to save these changes to the published diary?

Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (12+ / 0-)

    Remember history, Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust - narrated by Martin Sheen

    by Clay Claiborne on Sat Dec 29, 2012 at 10:32:15 AM PST

  •  Why can't we take out Assad with one drone? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    quaoar

    Seriously, or a regular bomber. BOOM, he and his henchmen, gone.

    why not???

    •  Why is it our job to be the world's policeman? (7+ / 0-)

      What right do we have to take out a foreign head of state, not involved in hostilities against the US?

      This is an abomination, no doubt.

      Even given that, I don't see our legal or ethical justification for such an act.

      •  A categorical imperative aginst intervention? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ShoshannaD

        Are there no circumstances under which you would contemplate intervention to prevent atrocities? Surely there are some limits to the rights of a sovereign to abuse his people. Can we ever take a consequentialist stance?

        Passive renunciation is not the whole of wisdom.

        by play jurist on Sat Dec 29, 2012 at 11:37:21 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Oh sure, there are many. (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Wee Mama, Claudius Bombarnac, corvo

          I mean, heck, I'd be good with a UN deployment of force.  Syria's a member, @ least a nominal peer.

          I just don't see the US's right to act as judge and jury on our own.  

          •  Surely it comes down to whether we're right and (0+ / 0-)

            capable of acting effectively, not whether we're acting alone. Don't get me wrong. Acting alone is good evidence that you're wrong and likely to be ineffective, suffer blowback, and unintended consequences. I'm just not so sure about the way of putting it in terms of rights. I tend to think in consequentialist terms.

            Passive renunciation is not the whole of wisdom.

            by play jurist on Sat Dec 29, 2012 at 04:52:53 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Why does the West always assume it is right? (0+ / 0-)
              http://www.medialens.org/...
              Why Are We The Good Guys?
              Reclaiming Your Mind From The Delusions of Propaganda
              By David Cromwell

              One of the unspoken assumptions of the Western world is that ‘we’ are great defenders of human rights, a free press and the benefits of market economics. Mistakes might be made along the way, perhaps even tragic errors of judgement such as the 2003 invasion of Iraq. But the prevailing view is that 'the West' is essentially a force for good in the wider world. Why Are We The Good Guys? is a provocative challenge to this false ideology.
              ...

              •  That's a good point. (0+ / 0-)

                But it's not really pertinent to what I'm getting at. I certainly don't think anyone should just assume they are right. One must of course weight the consequences of any action and pay careful attention to correcting for biases when doing so. It's well to point out that our past estimation of consequences has been biased and inaccurate. I'm just not on board with drawing categorical prohibitions from that.

                Passive renunciation is not the whole of wisdom.

                by play jurist on Sun Dec 30, 2012 at 02:41:31 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

        •  If we (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Claudius Bombarnac

          take out Assad with a drone then we should follow with drone strikes against the Chinese for their brutal occupation of Tibet, against Putin for kissing Assad's ass, against Chavez, janjawids in Sudan, the rapists in Dehli...where do you stop? Are we the world's police? Where do the do-nothing Sauds stand on this issue--except squarely in the coward's corner? This is an atrocity like all of the other atrocities going on a round the world including in our own backyards. The insurgents in Syria will win someday and then they will burn, rape, torture and murder thousands in revenge. Did Iran teach us nothing? The South American regimes supported by the CIA and guilty of crimes against humanity? America's meddling has caused millions of deaths across the world in the last century. Who exactly would we be helping in Syria?

            •  Which ones? There's a civil war going on with (0+ / 0-)

              a half dozen different angles. It's not a good vs. evil, black/white situation in Syria.

              http://www.atimes.com/...
              For whom the Syrian bell tolls

              By Pepe Escobar
              Dec 22, 2012

              The top geopolitical tragedy in 2012 is bound to remain the top geopolitical tragedy in 2013: the rape of Syria.
              ...
              In this Syrian tragedy, there is no Hemingway young hero, no Robert Jordan in the International Brigades fighting alongside Republican guerrillas against the fascists during the Spanish Civil War. In the Syrian civil war, the international brigades are mostly of the mercenary, Salafi-jihadi, beheading and car-bombing type. And the (few) young Americans in place are basically high-tech pawns in a game played by the rapacious NATOGCC club (the North Atlantic Treaty Organization and its Arab puppets of the Gulf Cooperation Council).

              The tragedy continues. The Syrian state, political and military security apparatus will maintain its mini-blitzkriegs - with no second thoughts for "collateral damage". On the opposing side, "rebel" commanders will be betting on a new Saudi-Qatari-encouraged Supreme Military Council.

              The Salafis and Salafi-jihadis of the al-Nusrah Front - 7th century fanatics, beheading enthusiasts and car-bombing operatives who do the bulk of the fighting - were not invited. After all, the al-Nusrah Front has been branded a "terrorist organization" by Washington.

              Now check the reaction of a Muslim Brotherhood (MB) bigwig, Hama-born deputy comptroller general Mohammed Farouk Tayfour; he said the decision was "too hasty". And check the reaction of the new Syrian opposition leader, Ahmed Moaz al-Khatib, at a "Friends of Syria" meeting in Morocco; the decision must be "reexamined". Virtually all "rebel" outfits publicly declared their undying love for the hardcore al-Nusrah.
              ...

          •  This is an easy objection to answer... (0+ / 0-)

            "I can't do everything so I'll do nothing," is not a very good position in my opinion. As I stated above, when weighing an intervention you have to consider all the consequences and these vary significantly from case to case. I haven't even taken the position that we should intervene in Syria. I'm just defending the position that there is no categorical moral imperative against doing so. The consequences are what matter. The position I'm taking is that if we can prevent grave atrocities without causing worse blowback or other harms then there's no reason not to. The consequences and practicalities will vary on a case by case basis. This isn't an incoherent philosophical position. Consequentialist ethics are highly situational. That's just the point in distinguishing them from deontological views.

            I'm in complete agreement with those pointing out that we have a less than terrific track record in weighing consequences and take from this that we should be highly skeptical of interventionism, seek international consensus, etc. All that I'm disagreeing with is the quite absolutist position that we have no right to dethrone a sovereign who is murdering his people. There is no such right of sovereigns in my opinion. There's just practical and consequential considerations of what happens when the sovereign is gone.

            Passive renunciation is not the whole of wisdom.

            by play jurist on Sun Dec 30, 2012 at 02:49:59 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  Doing so on behalf of human rights... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        merrywidow

        ...would sure be a refreshing change of pace from doing on behalf of oil interests and access.  That's for damn sure.

        I hear you though.  I truly do.

        I guess I'm just annoyed with..."priorities," I guess...

        "The most potent weapon in the hands of the oppressor is the mind of the oppressed." ~ Steven Biko

        by Marjmar on Sat Dec 29, 2012 at 06:07:23 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Without UN approval, that would be an act of war (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      AnnetteK, corvo, crose

      and would inflame the MENA region. It also would be playing right into the jihadist hands as a recruitment tool.

      Are you prepared for the US to go to war in Syria? A few thousand of these fighters have kept the US very busy for over a decade.

      Using hellfire missiles from (easily intercepted) drones, GPS guided 2,000 pound bombs dropped from bombers or powerful cruise missiles into populated areas would result in the deaths of more Syrians than have occurred to date from all sources.

      Remember the bombing of Baghdad when the US was trying to get Saddam? They didn't get him. It took boots on the ground. Syria is not a pushover like Libya or Iraq.

  •  Activists and Al Arabiya 'report' but (8+ / 0-)

    no one else has. That might give you an indication of what the media think about the reliability of these reports.

    You also convieniently leave out that the area, Deir Ba'alba in north-eastern Homs, where this massacre alledgedly happened was the location of heavy fighting between Syrian government forces and rebel forces in the past few days and that rebel forces were forced out of the area.

    Lamb chop, we can quibble what to call it, but I think we can both agree it's creepy.

    by InAntalya on Sat Dec 29, 2012 at 11:03:16 AM PST

    •  Yeah resist was put down, then everybody was (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      joe from Lowell, mookins

      killed.

      Average of 150 people a day reported killed by LCC, but I never hear about it from ABC,NBC, CNN

      So I guess everything is fine in Syria.

      Remember history, Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust - narrated by Martin Sheen

      by Clay Claiborne on Sat Dec 29, 2012 at 11:46:54 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  If there was a 'massacre' (6+ / 0-)

        it is just as possible that it was committed by rebel forces before or as they were forced out of the area by government forces.

        There are many more media sources in the world than those you listed, some of which are very anti-Assad and even they often don't cover these 'reports' because they are known to be unreliable.

        Lamb chop, we can quibble what to call it, but I think we can both agree it's creepy.

        by InAntalya on Sat Dec 29, 2012 at 11:59:19 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Your pro-Assad logic just doesn't fly (4+ / 1-)
          Recommended by:
          joe from Lowell, ShoshannaD, leftykook, mookins
          Hidden by:
          protectspice

          Homs has a long history of opposition to Assad. It is widely considered the home of the uprising.



          The "rebel forces" as you put them came first and foremost from the people of Homs.

          They are not some hostile armed group occupying Homs against the will of the residence.



          Therefore there is certainly no reason at this point to think that all these reporting sources are lying and that people were massacred by the "rebel forces" before they could be saved by the SAA except your depraved backing of Assad at all costs.

          Has it been the "rebel forces" that have been shelling Homs for more than a year now?


          If these videos are real, we would have seen them on the evening news, right? So they must all be fakes, right?

          Has it been the "rebel air force" that has been bombing Homs?




          Thank you for showing me what Holocaust denial looks like in real time.

          Remember history, Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust - narrated by Martin Sheen

          by Clay Claiborne on Sat Dec 29, 2012 at 01:24:55 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I love the double standard from the deniers. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Clay Claiborne, mookins

            If a story about a government massacre finds its way into the American media, it's just American government propaganda and should be ignored.

            If a story about a government massacre fails to find its way into the American media, it's just FSA propaganda and should be ignored.

            Art is the handmaid of human good.

            by joe from Lowell on Sat Dec 29, 2012 at 01:34:09 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  The origin of the "massacre" report was the (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              protectspice, corvo

              Shaam News Network - hardly an unbiased source of information.

              The Shaam News Network has also reported that the recent car bombing in Damascus was caused by regime forces.

              •  Pinochet did the same thing to discredit his (0+ / 0-)

                opposition.

                •  Pinochet had assistance from the CIA. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  protectspice
                  •  So does Assad! (0+ / 0-)

                    The CIA is stopping the rebels from getting heavy weapons from anyone.

                    Only they can't stop them from getting them from Assad!

                    I can immediately think of three people troubled by that, Assad, Obama and you.

                    Remember history, Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust - narrated by Martin Sheen

                    by Clay Claiborne on Sun Dec 30, 2012 at 10:04:26 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  The more militarized Syria becomes, the more (0+ / 0-)

                      carnage there will be. You can be sure that much of the looted war materiel will be stored for future use in the country for when the Assad regime falls and the various groups vie with each other for power. The Salafist jihadis have put too much blood into the war for them to go quietly.

                      The CIA is stopping the rebels from getting heavy weapons from anyone.
                      The CIA has given secure communication equipment to the rebels that the regime cannot intercept. In a war zone, this is deadly and was probably instrumental in the remarkable success the rebels have had in fighting the SAA. Communication and coordination are more important than weapons. Without those two, any weapons are ineffective - especially heavy weaponry. Listen to the commanders on the radio in the videos of the successful rebel attacks.
            •  Can we not get into (8+ / 0-)

              these kind of blanket denunciations of each other? InAntalya makes the point that we want verification and confirmation, not that he supports Assad. Since when does the search for facts constitute support for dictators?

              If one was to go back over Clay's body of work on Syria, one would see that he has far more interest in bringing us unverified, unconfirmed news from extremely biased sources which, when more fully investigated, are not correct. There are many stories that Clay writes that turn out to be wrong - the coup that never happened, the defection that never happened, the alleged death of Assad, the defection of the commander/general of military police in Aleppo who turns out to be a mere colonel and exaggerating to big-note himself. We don't see any retractions or corrections from Clay, just an endless juggernaut of news from sources, like al-Arabiyya, that are known to twist the news and sometimes fabricate it. Since this is a reality-based community, we have a right to push back on this, just as we would with someone bringing us news from Syrian govt propaganda outlets.

          •  Site one instance where I am (5+ / 0-)

            pro-Assad, if you can't (and I know you can't) it will just be more proof of your factual inadequacies and irrationality.

            Lamb chop, we can quibble what to call it, but I think we can both agree it's creepy.

            by InAntalya on Sat Dec 29, 2012 at 01:53:45 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  You promote the Assad thesis that all his enemies (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              mookins

              are terrorists. You have already suggested here that there was no massacre and if there was the rebels probably did it, which would make them terrorists.

              No doubt Assad will say the same thing.

              Because Assad doesn't allow the media to operate openly and independently in Syria, which you never complain about, the world has to rely on activist reports about what is going on.

              Your job is to attack those and generally muddy the waters about what is really going on in Syria. Your "questions" are not innocent. Objectively you play an important role in Assad's propaganda machine.

              Just as I am shamelessly bias in support of the Syrian people's struggle to throw off this murderous regime.

              Remember history, Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust - narrated by Martin Sheen

              by Clay Claiborne on Sat Dec 29, 2012 at 04:19:17 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

      •  Just like all those poor fictional babies... (5+ / 0-)

        ...taken out of their incubators and off their ventilators in Kuwait by Saddam Hussein's forces. The pro-war faction even got a "reliable" Congressional hearing out of that one.

        This is fog of war propaganda of indeterminate truth. Everyone of adult age has been through this rigamarole multiple times now with various conflicts. You don't know if it's true and a call to action or if it's warmongering lies to get us entangled. The history of such reports, especially from parties who would immediately benefit from US military involvement, and the consequences of taking them all at face value and using them to promote war should temper your sarcasm a bit.

        it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses

        by Addison on Sat Dec 29, 2012 at 01:06:09 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  John is a man, therefore all men are John. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Clay Claiborne, mookins

          Great logic there.  We can tell that a story about atrocities is bogus, because it's a story about atrocities, and one story about atrocities was bogus.

          Art is the handmaid of human good.

          by joe from Lowell on Sat Dec 29, 2012 at 01:35:16 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  And a correspondingly "great" misrepresentation... (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Claudius Bombarnac, corvo

            ...of my comment from you. I, of course, did NOT say the allegation was bogus.

            I said, "This is fog of war propaganda of indeterminate truth. Everyone of adult age has been through this rigamarole multiple times now with various conflicts. You don't know if it's true and a call to action or if it's warmongering lies to get us entangled."

            I also said, "The history of such reports, especially from parties who would immediately benefit from US military involvement, and the consequences of taking them all at face value and using them to promote war should temper your sarcasm a bit."

            The first section is a fact. We don't know the truth, this is wartime propaganda (which may or may not be true), many people have been through this dilemma of how to parse wartime propaganda before, and the person does not know if this is true or not. The second quote is what I feel is common sense, given the example I cited (and the many others available).

            At no time did I say BECAUSE the previous propaganda was bogus, THIS one is bogus. I said that the motivations and past experience should temper his sarcasm a bit, especially as it concerns warmongering.

            In the future reply to what comments actually say, please.

            it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses

            by Addison on Sat Dec 29, 2012 at 02:16:27 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  By calling it warmongering (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              mookins

              I gather you are taking the position that this massacre didn't happen.

              I call that a pro-Assad position because beyond the present instant, it is clear that Assad has done the bulk of the killing in Homs in the last 22 months.

              Remember history, Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust - narrated by Martin Sheen

              by Clay Claiborne on Sat Dec 29, 2012 at 03:45:20 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  No... (5+ / 0-)

                ...I'm calling it warmongering because it's warmongering. That's the motivation of reporting things as known facts instead of presenting them in a more tempered manner. That's why there's so much heated rhetoric. Because it's being presented not as information, but as propaganda, and toward the end of heavy American military involvement in the Syrian civil war.

                That is a separate issue from the truth of the story. The truth of the story is unknown. It could be false, it could be true but exaggerated, it could be true, it could be true but undercounting the dead. In every conflict, however, we see ex-pat and exile groups out-and-out lying. To me that suggests tempering ideological pro-war rhetoric when relaying their stories.

                Pro-Assad? Call it what you will, no one can stop you. But just as people who didn't want the US to invade Iraq, or attack Russia after the Georgian conflict, or Iran when they had their crackdown, etc. were not pro-Hussein, or pro-Putin, or pro-Ahmedinejad, respectively, likewise I am not pro-Assad. You're running the neo-con playbook in your comment. It doesn't work anymore.

                it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses

                by Addison on Sat Dec 29, 2012 at 05:23:40 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  So basically you object to this massacre being (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  mookins

                  reported at all, at least until we're sure, whatever that means.

                  Because all I have done in this diary is collect the stuff I've found on the web pointing to and documenting a great massacre in Homs now.

                  Its all as I found it, together with links so the reader can judge the validity of the reports for herself and for that I get this tirade from you.

                  Remember history, Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust - narrated by Martin Sheen

                  by Clay Claiborne on Sat Dec 29, 2012 at 06:47:02 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Maybe you should've posted it... (3+ / 0-)

                    ...on a less progressive blog, or one without a comments section, if you want to avoid "tirades" about how you're promoting a new American war via propaganda of uncertain validity? My guess is that you like the size of the audience here, which is fine. I do, too. But along with the audience comes a great many people who'd rather not go to enter the civil war in Syria, and who think you calling them "pro-Assad" for not wanting to go to war in Syria is repurposed neo-con rhetoric.

                    it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses

                    by Addison on Sat Dec 29, 2012 at 07:02:38 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  No one has suggested ground troops, ever. (0+ / 0-)
                    •  You take a dim view of progressives don't you? (0+ / 0-)
                      Maybe you should've posted it on a less progressive blog
                      Because, in your view, progressives don't care about the massacre of Syrians.

                      Remember history, Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust - narrated by Martin Sheen

                      by Clay Claiborne on Sat Dec 29, 2012 at 08:33:26 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  Why do you assume these reports are false? (0+ / 0-)

                      You don't think that Assad is a mass murderer and war criminal?

                      You don't believe the reports of his use of air power against areas heavily populated by civilians?

                      You don't believe he has been shelling Homs for a very long time?








                      Remember history, Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust - narrated by Martin Sheen

                      by Clay Claiborne on Sat Dec 29, 2012 at 08:46:53 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Ok... (3+ / 0-)

                        ...so let's separate a few things.

                        (1) This thread is about this diary. We don't know the truth of what is reported in this diary, especially given it's source, and especially given the history of exile and opposition groups creating atrocities out of thin air. Yes, reporting is hard in Syria, but that is not an excuse to become a clearinghouse for propaganda by people who want American involvement for their own purposes. I am not giving Assad the benefit of the doubt either, in his PR statements. Everyone is potentially lying about everything, there's a fog of war.

                        (2) Assad is a bad person. I don't like him. I am not for him. He is utilizing Syria's military to kill civilians in a complex civil war which doesn't need to involve civilians. I hope that he is overthrown by a strong enough coalition with enough non-Islamists to create a stable new Syria.

                        (3) I do not want American involvement in that civil war, anymore than I want us to get involved with any other country in the midst of a civil war. Syria needs to take care of Syria, and if they can't, they need to recruit regional assistance instead of putting on a PR show for a war-fatigued American audience.

                        (4) You're berating people who want to know the real truth, and who have a memory of being fooled into multiple wars, as pro-Assad. You can post a million diaries on the subject and not get to credibly play that card. We are not pro-Assad.

                        it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses

                        by Addison on Sat Dec 29, 2012 at 08:54:37 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Wrong again, pro-Assad history again (0+ / 0-)
                          He is utilizing Syria's military to kill civilians in a complex civil war which doesn't need to involve civilians.
                          He started using his military to shoot civilians long before there was an FSA. The FSA formed up to protect those civilians.

                          Assad strategy all along has been to attack civilians. He says he is fighting some 3rd force that is terrorists, but that is a lie.

                          The civil war is not that complex. The majority are fighting to throw out Assad. He is fighting to stay.

                          You are fighting to ignore the carnage.

                          Remember history, Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust - narrated by Martin Sheen

                          by Clay Claiborne on Sun Dec 30, 2012 at 10:19:50 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                      •  Homs was a rebel stronghold so it got a lot (0+ / 0-)

                        of pounding by the SAA. That's what happens when rebels (or insurgents or government forces) set up within cities and towns. Innocent civilians get caught in between.

                        http://www.spiegel.de/...

                        An Executioner for Syria's Rebels Tells His Story

                        Human Rights Watch has condemned abuses committed by Syrian rebels in their stronghold of Homs. But one member of a rebel "burial brigade" who has executed four men by slitting their throats defended his work in an interview with SPIEGEL ONLINE. "If we don't do it, nobody will hold these perpetrators to account," he said.
                        ...
                        Over the course of the last year, Homs had developed into the unofficial capital of the revolution. Until a few weeks ago, the rebels controlled whole neighborhoods of the city, especially the district of Baba Amr. But that area was overrun by government troops in early March. The fight between rebels and government forces has now shifted to the neighboring district of Khalidiya.

                        According to Abu Rami and Hussein, the alternative justice system that the rebels set up in Homs last fall remains intact. "When we catch regime supporters, they are brought before a court martial," they say. The commander of the rebels in Homs, Abu Mohammed, presides over the court. He is assisted by Abu Hussein, the head of the coordinating committee. "Sometimes even more men act as a jury," says Hussein. The interrogation brigade reports on the confessions of the accused. Often the suspects even had videos on their cell phones that showed atrocities being perpetrated against insurgents, the men say. "In that situation, their guilt is established quickly." In the event of a conviction, the prisoners are then handed over to Hussein's burial brigade, which takes them to gardens or to the cemetery. And then Hussein comes along with his knife.
                        ...

                        •  They weren't "innocent civilians" (0+ / 0-)

                          They are being slaughtered for opposing the regime.

                          You really work hard to justify Assads murder don't you. Assuming they were holding "innocent civilians" as human shield as you and Assad claim, you think that justifies pounding civilian areas into the mud?

                          Doesn't that still leave Assad as a war criminal or do you think that lets him off the hook?  

                          Remember history, Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust - narrated by Martin Sheen

                          by Clay Claiborne on Sun Dec 30, 2012 at 10:25:11 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  In all wars innocent civilians get caught between (0+ / 0-)

                            fighting forces. This is especially true in asymmetrical warfare where the "collateral damage" can be immense.

                            BTW, the Syrian Observatory classifies rebels as civilians if they are not deserters from the SAA.

                            The rebels had taken control of most of Homs by destroying government institutions and army/police checkpoints as well as barracks within the city. By doing so, they put the civilians in these areas at severe risk. That is why most of the people have left the city as refugees.

                            http://blogs.aljazeera.com/...

                            President Bashar al-Assad's forces meanwhile recaptured a neighbourhood of  the central city of Homs that had been held by rebels for most of the year after a fierce assault that sparked a humanitarian crisis.

                            I suggest you view your own documentary,
                            Vietnam: American Holocaust, to see what happens when combatants operate within civilian populations.

                            I support neither the rebels nor Assad. Both are complicit in this horror. The majority of the Syrian people don't want either but their voice is not heard.

    •  This might be the worst argument in web history. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Clay Claiborne

      "The American media aren't covering something horrible that happened in the developing world, so we should probably assume that it didn't happen."

      Um...no.

      Art is the handmaid of human good.

      by joe from Lowell on Sat Dec 29, 2012 at 01:29:27 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Joe your stupidity and chauvinism are showing. (4+ / 0-)

        There is a lot more media in the world than American media.

        And since I live on the other side of the world - you know right next to Syria - and know many more languges than just English, I see and read a lot of coverage, and the coverage of Syria is generally much better and more detailed than that in the US.

        As a result I know that a lot of media in many parts of the world have stopped believing and covering these 'reports' because they have learned from experience and reported on just how unreliable they are.

        Lamb chop, we can quibble what to call it, but I think we can both agree it's creepy.

        by InAntalya on Sat Dec 29, 2012 at 02:10:45 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Care for some cheese with that whine? (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Clay Claiborne, mookins

          I don't care where you live, that was a dumbass argument.

          There are many reasons why foreign media don't cover every event in Syria.  That you would leap to denialism - very, very selective denialism, as is your habit - to explain away a story you don't like is just more of your usual bias.

          And all the cheap grabbing for your very favorite scare words don't change that.  That was a dumbass argument you made.

          Art is the handmaid of human good.

          by joe from Lowell on Sat Dec 29, 2012 at 02:15:22 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Maybe you should care where I live (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            protectspice, BigAlinWashSt, corvo

            because as a result I am able to observe directly and know much much more about what is happening in Syria than the dumbass who writes these posts and the other dumbasses who support him.

            Lamb chop, we can quibble what to call it, but I think we can both agree it's creepy.

            by InAntalya on Sat Dec 29, 2012 at 02:23:30 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Maybe you should learn what a link is. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              mookins

              This "unreported" story was reported by Al Arabiya news, which you could have figured out if you'd bothered to click the very first link provided in the story.

              Tell me, dearie, where do you think they live?

              So now that your argument about the media ignoring these stories has been proven completely wrong, you'd better fall back on Plan B: arguing that the coverage of these stories proves they're propaganda.

              Art is the handmaid of human good.

              by joe from Lowell on Sat Dec 29, 2012 at 02:44:16 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

  •  Strong pro-rebel France24 report does not (5+ / 0-)

    mention "massacre" in Deir Baalbeh. Saudi mouthpiece, Al Arabiya, has been caught time and time again spreading blatant propaganda.

    http://www.france24.com/...
    Assad forces 'take district of Syria's Homs'
    29 December 2012

    AFP - Forces loyal to Syria's President Bashar al-Assad on Saturday seized a district of the central city of Homs after a fierce assault that sparked a humanitarian crisis, a watchdog said.

    "The army launched an offensive several days ago on the neighbourhood of Deir Baalbeh with heavy bombing, and the fighting and attacks continued until the rebels withdrew," said the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights.
    ...
    The Observatory said that 170 people -- 51 civilians, 62 rebels and 57 soldiers -- were killed on Friday in violence across Syria, where a pro-democracy uprising that erupted in March 2011 morphed into an armed insurgency after a bloody crackdown.

    BTW, the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights lists rebels who are not deserters from the Syrian army as civilians.

    This from the VERY pro-opposition Al Jazeera.

    http://www.aljazeera.com/...

    AJ: Who is being killed?

    NR: Every day the opposition gives a death toll, usually without any explanation of the cause of the deaths. Many of those reported killed are in fact dead opposition fighters, but the cause of their death is hidden and they are described in reports as innocent civilians killed by security forces, as if they were all merely protesting or sitting in their homes. Of course, those deaths still happen regularly as well.

    And, every day, members of the Syrian army, security agencies and the vague paramilitary and militia phenomenon known as shabiha ["thugs"] are also killed by anti-regime fighters.

    Here's a very good report on the subject of casualty lists.
    http://mrzine.monthlyreview.org/...
    Questioning the Syrian "Casualty List"

    by Sharmine Narwani

    "Perception is 100 percent of politics," the old adage goes.  Say something three, five, seven times, and you start to believe it in the same way you "know" aspirin is good for the heart.

    Sometimes, though, perception is a dangerous thing.  In the dirty game of politics, it is the perception -- not the facts -- of an issue that invariably wins the day.

    In the case of the raging conflict over Syria, the one fundamental issue that motors the entire international debate on the crisis is the death toll and its corollary: the Syrian casualty list.
    ...

  •  Your link doesn't square with your quote (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Fire bad tree pretty, corvo
    Activists are reporting that the Assad regime is currently carrying out a new massacre in Homs. The current death toll in Homs is said to be 220 and counting as Al Arabiya reports:
    You are juxtaposing tweets with news reports to give them veracity. Tweets and facebook are not reliable sources of information.
  •  Opposition getting increasingly sectarian (0+ / 0-)

    I doesn't appear that a liberal secular democracy is likely in Syria's future.

    Signing of the document by numerous brigades to establish Khilafah

    Charter of working for the establishment of the Islamic Khilafah in Syria

    "Allah has promised those who have believed among you and done righteous deeds that He will surely grant them succession [to authority] upon the earth just as He granted it to those before them and that He will surely establish for them [therein] their religion which He has preferred for them and that He will surely substitute for them, after their fear, security, [for] they worship Me, not associating anything with Me. But whoever disbelieves after that then those are the defiantly disobedient." [al-Nur: 55]

    We, the undersigned,

    Affirming the obligation of working for the implementation of the Islamic Sacred Law [Shari'ah], the resumption of the Islamic way of life, and the realisation of the glad tiding of the Messenger of Allah, Muhammad (saw) -- "...then there will be a Khilafah on the method of Prophethood" -- and seeking the attainment of the pleasure of the Allah, the Exalted, announce the following:

    Firstly: we make a firm covenant with Allah, the Exalted, to strive to thwart the project of establishing a civil, democratic state in Syria, and to strive to establish the Islamic Khilafah state, based on the following pillars:
    ...
    Signatories

    1. Ali Abdul Razzak, leader of Shaheed Mustafa Abdul Razzak brigade
    2. Omar Ghayth, leader of Ansar al-Haq brigade
    3. Muhannad al-Khanim, leader of Suyuf al-Rahman brigade
    4. Ibrahim Amin, leader of Ansar al-Khilafah brigade
    5. Major Amin Khalil, leader of al-Muhajireen brigade
    6. Captain Khalid al-Umar, leader of Abdullah ibn al-Zubayr brigade
    7. Mustafa al-Shaykh, leader of al-Rasheed brigade
    8. Mus'ab al-Saeed, leader of Ahrar al-Islam brigade
    9. Amir Abdul Razzak, leader of Ahrar al-Asha'ir brigade
    10. Abdul Hamid Abdul Hamid, representative of Hizb ut-Tahrir

    Additional signatories

    1. Captain Abdul Rahman al-Najjar
    2. Yahya Mezawy, leader of Ahfad al-Farooq brigade

    •  RE: "Signing of the document by numerous brigades" (0+ / 0-)

      @Claudius Bombarnac. What can you tell us about the provenance of this video and what the alleged signatories of this statement  represent? There are 9 brigades named here: that could amount to 500-600 men, or about 1% of the FSA's forces. It could be more: but do you have the slighest idea? Of perhaps such niceties only concern you when you're criticising Clay.

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site