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And Hell Followed With Her book cover
And Hell Followed With Her: Crossing the Dark Side of the American Border
By David Neiwert
Hardcover: $26.99
Nation Books
336 pages
March 2013

David Neiwert has not only earned his investigative chops over the past decade or so by exploring the dangerous side of right-wing extremism—he's proven himself to be one of the more lyrical and elegant writers on the beat. Consider the opening line of his latest release, And Hell Followed With Her: Crossing the Dark Side of the American Border:

Night descends like grace on the Arizona desert.
That sentence is a signal: sit back, you're in the hands of a master storyteller. And oh, what a tragic, dark and sadly crazy American story it is.

One night that descended like grace in the Arizona desert in May 2009 was shattered for a Mexican-American family when a sociopathic female Minuteman/border vigilante wannabe named Shawna Forde masterminded a melodramatic break-in that ended in the death of Raul Flores and his nine-year-old daughter, Brisenia, in a remote border town called Arivaca. Gina Gonzalez, Flores' wife and Brisenia's mother, survived the home invasion and execution by playing dead, and she is truly the heroine of this harrowing story: strong, unwavering, ultimately willing to testify over and over and over about the night her family was slaughtered. It's her dignity and insistence on justice for her daughter's and husband's death that makes the contrast with the murderous mastermind of the crime so stark.

Shawna Forde
Right-wing darling and psychopath Shawna Forde
The world of film noir could not come up with a more complexly evil villain than Forde: a Latino-hating crackpot and opportunist, former teenage prostitute, exploiter of every man she ever encountered (and who apparently hired a hitman to off one of her husbands), a woman who slips into the Minuteman movement, gets lavishly courted by different factions within it, takes over parts of it and plays everyone, everywhere, off of each other, both in her personal life and in her nativist professional life. It's impossible to tell by the end of the book what she truly believes and what she pretends to believe for expediency's sake. The only thing that's certain, ultimately, is that right-wing extremist circles are ripe for her brand of exploitation, as Neiwert points out below:

A significant aspect of the scapegoating rhetoric common to right-wing nativist movements—rhetoric that is almost wholly structured around building outrage and anger in their audience and overwhelming rationality—is a kind of competitive escalation: the more outrageous and inflammatory the rhetoric, the greater influence you wield, and the greater following you attract. In a can-you-top-this political environment, a lifelong topper like Shawna will always flourish. And she did.
Brisenia Flores
Brisenia Flores, dead at age 9.
Neiwert uses Shawna Forde's fascinatingly repugnant life story to discuss the wider aspects of the right-wing extremist movements he's spent his career documenting. He traces the Minuteman movement both backwards—from the earlier Ku Klux Klan to Aryan Nation to the militia movement prominent in the 1990s in the Northwest—and forward, to the Tea Party. That one murderous night in Arivaca gained national—and unwanted—attention for the border vigilante movement in general and the Minutemen in particular. Because, my God, in the end how easy it was for Forde to dupe her fellow travelers into believing that a low-key, locally accepted marijuana dealer was really some big-time head of an international drug cartel, and worthy of slaughter.

Paranoid, delusional, egocentric and ignorant all collide in these Forde companion characters who swagger along the border like John Wayne wannabes, armed to the teeth and certain everyone is out to get them—even their allies. And, of course, the election of a certain person to the presidency catapulted the paranoia into overdrive, and with the disintegration of the reputation of the border watcher movement, a migration into a new branch of right-wing extremism got underway:

As with most conservatives, Forde was dismayed at the election of a black Democrat, Barack Obama, to the presidency in 2008, and so she eagerly joined up the following winter as right-wing ideology got a fresh rebranding under the banner of the populist Tea Party. Her family members said she was very keen on the protests being planned—and assiduously promoted on right-wing outlets like Fox News—for that April. She wrote about the potential of the movement to advance the Minuteman cause on "Shawna's Corner."

And then she turned up at the Tax Day Tea Party in Phoenix on April 15. She was one of a long list of second- and third-tier speakers who lined up to have their three minutes at the microphone during the daylong event.

In the context of some of the day's more incendiary speakers, Shawna's remarks don't really stand out—other than that she called for a citizen revolt, perhaps of the kind she was in the process of enacting.

After Forde's arrest for the murders of Raul and Brisenia Flores, there was, of course, a mad scramble on the right to disown any relationship with the clearly sociopathic perpetrator. But it was a tough sell: She'd been lauded and courted by Minutemen leaders like Chris Simcox and Jim Gilchrist. She'd been a featured speaker at a forum on immigration in the state of Washington. There were hundreds of emails passed between her and right-wing leaders across the country, planning rallies, meetings and events in several states.

But as Neiwert writes, the very organizations disowning her initially helped to recruit and maintain exactly the kind of people of Forde and her fellow murderer Jason Bush could so easily prey on: "… the politics and rhetoric of the Minutemen had everything to do with why they not only attracted but were vulnerable to the predations of psychopaths like Forde and Bush. It was indeed a psychopathic crime—and it was also a Minuteman crime. These were not mutually exclusive aspects of the murders in Arivaca but indeed quite complementary—perhaps even inevitable."

Neiwert's insights after covering right-wing extremism movements, his gift with language, his considerable storytelling skills all combine to make And Hell Followed With Her a near compulsive—and frightening—read. His ability to combine the history of these various organizations with the more immediate crime, and his analysis of the mindset of those who spent their lives immersed in the delusions of the right wing, make this book an important one, one with implications that reach far beyond one woman, two deaths and one border town. In his own words:

The rhetoric of the Minutemen and their related nativist organizations—including, nowadays the Tea Party—appealed to psychopaths like Shawna Forde and Jason Bush because it reflected so much of their interior psyches and moreover provided an irresistible opportunity for grandiose self-inflation and validation.

Minuteman rhetoric often reflected the very traits of personality disorders, particularly in its political mind-set, which sought to blame weak and helpless (contemptibly so, from the nativist view) others for their own, often self-inflicted, national problems. It was frequently grandiose, particularly in its claims to be preventing terrorist attacks and its larger claims to be in the act of "saving America:; it indulged a marked propensity to lie and dispense false information, ranging from Glenn Spencer's Ebola rumor and Reconquista claims to Chris Simcox's bogus border-fence scam to Jim Gilchrist's bathetic, and ultimately futile, attempts to distance himself from Shawna Forde. The Minutemen also frequently distorted facts, if they did not outright falsify them, in order to manipulate public sentiment, and they did so remorselessly. Most of all, despite occasional lip service to the plight of immigrants, the Minutemen's rhetoric was profoundly lacking in empathy for the targets of their ire; indeed, the more callous and cold-hearted the remark, the more widely it was circulated. If ever there was a movement tailored to recruit and promote psychopaths, it was the Minutemen.

Forewarned, one could say, is forearmed. And Hell Followed With Her is a radically scary wake-up call of forewarning.

(Neiwert's work can also be found at Crooks and Liars, where he blogs regularly.)

Originally posted to Daily Kos on Sun Mar 31, 2013 at 08:00 AM PDT.

Also republished by LatinoKos.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Rupert Murdoch and hate radio have a lot (37+ / 0-)

    to answer for. The more these people are marginalized from mainstream society, the more danger they pose to all of us. Thanks for the diary.

    Too many in this country feel the Constitution should include the 2nd Amendment. And nothing else.

    by blueoregon on Sun Mar 31, 2013 at 08:25:27 AM PDT

  •  very well written and well worth the read; tx (16+ / 0-)

    We Must DISARM THE NRA The next life you save may be ONE OF YOUR OWN!

    by SeaTurtle on Sun Mar 31, 2013 at 08:27:53 AM PDT

  •  Shawna Ford is not the worst of the worst (11+ / 0-)

    Psycho and sociopath that she is, she is the tip of the anti-immigration iceberg.  Check out FAIR and other anti immigration sites and watch for the wackos to surface, those who patrol the border vigilante style and who exact their own form of justice on those they capture (though the leaders vehemently deny this)  Should the headless bodies cited by Arpaio and other officials exist, here is the likely genesis of the murders, not drug deals gone bad.

    Since these murders don't make the headlines:
    http://www.yourblackworld.net/...

    http://www.mycuentame.org/...

    http://barkgrowlbite.blogspot.com/...

    http://www.care2.com/...

  •  WowZa! (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Shockwave, figbash, lyvwyr101, Smoh

      Some twisted hated filled individual there!  Thanks for this diary.

  •  This sentence really struck a chord: (36+ / 1-)
    Paranoid, delusional, egocentric and ignorant all collide in these Forde companion characters who swagger along the border like John Wayne wannabes, armed to the teeth and certain everyone is out to get them—even their allies.
    The more I read from the conceal carry/open carry crowd, the more I wonder how that feeling continues to infect so much of the gun crowd.

    When I read comments here on Daily Kos from those who regularly carry weapons about being "prepared if the shit hits the fan," I have to wonder what kind scenarios must be playing out in there heads.

    This kind of fear-induced, paranoid belief is stoked by the NRA. In fact, some of the writing I have seen here is a direct echo of the Wayne LaPierre fear formulation about the horrendous and frightening world that takes place after natural disasters, for example.

    The fact that Forde was able to combine this kind of "end times" vision with fear of the "other," is just a further extension of what has been playing out in the gun culture for the last couple of decades when the place of guns on society has transitioned from hunting and varmint elimination to "self-defense."

    The development of the language of fear has been the only way for gun manufacturers to ratchet up sales as hunting has declined in an increasingly urban population.

    Now, we get even a number of folks here who paint this doom scenarios as their very reason for packing heat.

    Forde took this paranoia a step further, but her compatriots are not that far removed, frankly, from some of the gun culture I see displayed right here on Daily Kos on an almost daily basis.

    The language I've seen written, particularly from those who proclaim that they carry a weapon daily, about Chicago or New York or other urban areas displays an amazing lack of awareness of what these cities -- and urban life -- are really like.

    These folks seem to have internalized the NRA/LaPierre fear-stoking and repeat it back as if it is gospel.

    Suggested liberal gun lovers' motto: "More liberal than the NRA on everything except guns."

    by Bob Johnson on Sun Mar 31, 2013 at 08:58:20 AM PDT

    •  Oh Look It's The Usual Made Up Troll Bullshit (1+ / 2-)
      Recommended by:
      gerrilea
      Hidden by:
      indycam, Avila
      When I read comments here on Daily Kos from those who regularly carry weapons about being "prepared if the shit hits the fan," I have to wonder what kind scenarios must be playing out in there heads.
      Here we go again with the claim that DK is infested with survivalist conspiracy nuts.

      There’s always free cheddar in a mousetrap, baby

      by bernardpliers on Sun Mar 31, 2013 at 09:15:23 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Are you saying no one here has used that exact (12+ / 0-)

        ... terminology or the acronym for that phrase?

        Suggested liberal gun lovers' motto: "More liberal than the NRA on everything except guns."

        by Bob Johnson on Sun Mar 31, 2013 at 09:17:04 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Actually Easy To Prove How Full Of Shit You Are (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          gerrilea

          Just Google this:

          site:www.dailykos.com "shit hits the fan"

          And you will see references to climate change, the debt ceiling, etc

          There’s always free cheddar in a mousetrap, baby

          by bernardpliers on Sun Mar 31, 2013 at 09:19:38 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  It's easy to find numerous examples, bernard. (19+ / 0-)

            Here are two that I found in just a few seconds:

            This is a diary by an RKBA member:

            New Jersey became a microcosm of what a large scale SHTF scenario can be. No power, heat, grocery stores.
            Here's a comment from an RKBA member:

            Both considerably wise decisions (3+ / 0-)

            The lever-action is a good gun to have for hunting, defense, or SHTF. I am generally against having "safe queen" guns, unless they're of substantial historical value (such as some of the guns that my wife's grandfather brought back from Europe when he came home from WWII).

            And if the dealer bought it for $1600, they're selling it for $3200.

            Here's a comment from the leader of RKBA at Daily Kos:
            I don't have an appropriate repeater. (2+ / 0-)

            Closest thing (with a stock) is a 4 shot Remington 740 in .308.

            Do you have an extra SHTF firearm you can send me as well? ;-D

            We need another Huey P. Long and federal funding for abortion. -9.00, -4.05

            by KVoimakas on Tue Feb 16, 2010 at 11:29:33 AM

            CST

            There are many, many more, bernard. These are just a few I found that use the acronym.

            Suggested liberal gun lovers' motto: "More liberal than the NRA on everything except guns."

            by Bob Johnson on Sun Mar 31, 2013 at 09:32:48 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  None Support Your "Fear Induced Paranoid" Premise (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              gerrilea

              Swing and miss Bob, because nothing there supports your premise that DK is infested with black helicopter conspiracy nuts.

              Example one  - hurricane, and doesn't mention guns
              Example two - ambiguous, since he's talking about hunting rifles  and not any paranoid or government conspiracy.  
              Example three - a joking reference from someone that only owns a shotgun

              Maybe DK black helicopter conspiracy nuts are like the black helicopters themselves - only visible to special people. Seen any little green men? Pink elephants?  

              So now that you've dug yourself into a hole, do you intend to keep digging?

              There’s always free cheddar in a mousetrap, baby

              by bernardpliers on Sun Mar 31, 2013 at 09:42:51 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  infested with black helicopter nuts? No, but (7+ / 0-)

                there are a few, even on DKos.

              •  bernard, as much as you want to deny it... (17+ / 0-)

                ... a number of the conceal carry/open carry crowd here has espoused SHTF scenario preparation as the very reason they carry their weapons.

                Why are you so vehement in your denials of a provable fact?

                I have had an RKBA member here tell me that SHTF scenarios (natural disasters like Katrina, as the poster noted) might require the use of an AR15.

                This isn't me making stuff up, bernard. It's what others have written.

                I note that these facts may make you angry, but they are facts, nonetheless.

                Suggested liberal gun lovers' motto: "More liberal than the NRA on everything except guns."

                by Bob Johnson on Sun Mar 31, 2013 at 09:55:41 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  That's Some Real Babbling Gibberish There, Bob (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  gerrilea, Tom Seaview
                  ... a number of the conceal carry/open carry crowd here has espoused SHTF scenario preparation as the very reason they carry their weapons.
                  People on DailyKos are  carrying weapons right now because they afraid of the SHTF while they drive to Krogers?  You know, those "paranoid....apocalyptic....end of the world" beliefs you mentioned

                  Also,  "concealed carry" literally means "concealed carry." It's terribly convenient to try to win arguments by making up words when you find yourself painted into a corner, but "concealed carry" means someone is carrying potentially at any given time, as in right now, not some day, not after the end of the world.  

                  You're explicitly saying that people at DK are carrying guns today because they believe that the world as we know it is going to end as early as this afternoon, and that you have seen people here confirming your claims, a lot, apparently, except you can't find any examples.

                  There’s always free cheddar in a mousetrap, baby

                  by bernardpliers on Sun Mar 31, 2013 at 02:41:35 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  You said it, not me. (14+ / 0-)
                    People on DailyKos are  carrying weapons right now because they afraid of the SHTF while they drive to Krogers?
                    I think the folks I'm talking about have a definition of SHTF more akin to that than the end of the world (though some are worried about marauders overrunning them in the event of natural disasters, too).

                    I gave you this example.

                    I think a number of these folks see threats lurking around every corner like in this thread.

                    I think a lot of folks use SHTF precisely to mean a bad guy suddenly whipping out a gun and confronting them or a group somewhere when they're out and about, whether the grocery store, mall or just walking down the street.

                    As I noted in the post, some folks have cited urban centers like Chicago or New York as inherently dangerous. Ironically, most of the conceal and open carry crowd seem to live in rural areas where one would think the crime rate is much lower, especially given how they fret about places like Chicago or New York.

                    Yet millions of people live in these big urban centers without feeling the need to pack heat in case some bad guy suddenly appears out of nowhere to attack them or others.

                    Go figure.

                    Suggested liberal gun lovers' motto: "More liberal than the NRA on everything except guns."

                    by Bob Johnson on Sun Mar 31, 2013 at 04:10:40 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  They could be lying, but so what? (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Smoh, Avila

                    Maybe they really believe it.  Maybe they are just using the SHTF scenario as a bad faith argument.  It is irrelevant.  They use it.

                    It's like the "it's to defend us against tyranny" argument.  Nobody knows whether the proponents believe it, or are just using the argument that conveniently argues for an invidivual to be as well armed as the USG.

                    That's not even "gun control". It's more like "massacre control".

                    by Inland on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 10:09:35 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  As a non-gun owner, I like having the option to (0+ / 0-)

                      own as many guns and ammo as the "USG" does plus 1.

                      It's freedom of choice, remember that concept?  The argument has been that the right to keep and bear arms must be "justified".  Nope, I've never believed an enumerated individual right needs justification.  

                      The gun control advocates have employed a dishonest debating technique to ensnare those of us that believe the USG should follow the rules we set out for them.  The dishonest technique of "framing the issue" on one of need.

                      Then when some of us give examples of why "it may be needed", it then can be used to beat us over the head with it.

                      That game has been revealed here:

                      It's clear to many of us that gun control isn't going to pass in any meaningful way this time around so the tactic being employed is to attack the people that support the Bill of Rights and label them to avoid an honest discussion of the issues we must contend with.

                      1.  Violence in this society.

                      2.  Why do people become violent.

                      3.  Legitimate constitutional solutions that will help all of us, not just a select few in Suburban White Neighborhoods.

                      -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                      by gerrilea on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 10:33:40 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  "I'd like the option". (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Smoh, Avila

                        So would North Korea. Plus, I'd like the option of a button that would stop people from equating their "likes" to a constitutional or human right. But whatever. Let's vote on your wish list.   It's still a democracy.  

                        That's not even "gun control". It's more like "massacre control".

                        by Inland on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 11:14:53 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Maybe, maybe not: (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Joieau
                          Let's vote on your wish list.   It's still a democracy.  
                          http://www.nationaljournal.com/...

                          The majority of these "United States" have voted to deny me, a transgender woman, the right to marry whom I chose.

                          Does this mean that what they did was constitutional?  Clearly by their own State Constitutions it was.  

                          Do you support these efforts now?  Since you want to restrict the right to keep and bear arms through a popular vote?  

                          See how "the tyranny of the majority" works yet?

                          "If it be admitted that a man possessing absolute power may misuse that power by wronging his adversaries, why should not a majority be liable to the same reproach? Men do not change their characters by uniting with one another; nor does their patience in the presence of obstacles increase with their strength. For my own part, I cannot believe it; the power to do everything, which I should refuse to one of my equals, I will never grant to any number of them."
                          Alexis de Tocqueville, "Tyranny of the Majority," Chapter XV, Book 1, Democracy in America
                          You'd have us utilize the same method that the "Moral Majority" has to strip me of Equity Under Law.

                          I find this position very dangerous to us all.

                          -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                          by gerrilea on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 12:39:51 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Is it constitutional? (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Smoh, Avila

                            I dunno: is "I'd like" in the constitution?  Or more precisely, is what "You'd like" in the constitution, because for some reason, I'm supposed to bow down to your druthers in wanting to be as well armed as the United States Government and pretend like it's not the talk of a crazy person, and you never seem to give a shit what I'd like.  Not even to ask.  Such as, "How do you feel about me being the world's superpower? Do you like that or not"?

                            When do I get rights?  Yes, I'm asking, since it seems to be up to your whims.

                            That's not even "gun control". It's more like "massacre control".

                            by Inland on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 12:53:36 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I've never advocated you losing any rights. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Joieau

                            You wish for it to be true so that you can ignore what I've actually stated.

                            My rights end where yours begin and vice-versa.

                            You've never asked me what I wanted, you've told me what you're going to do, Government by Decree.

                            As for this:

                            I'm supposed to bow down to your druthers in wanting to be as well armed as the United States Government and pretend like it's not the talk of a crazy person,
                            http://xroads.virginia.edu/...
                            In America the majority raises formidable barriers around the liberty of opinion; within these barriers an author may write what he pleases, but woe to him if he goes beyond them.

                            -cut-

                            Fetters and headsmen were the coarse instruments that tyranny formerly employed; but the civilization of our age has perfected despotism itself, though it seemed to have nothing to learn. Monarchs had, so to speak, materialized oppression; the democratic republics of the present day have rendered it as entirely an affair of the mind as the will which it is intended to coerce. Under the absolute sway of one man the body was attacked in order to subdue the soul; but the soul escaped the blows which were directed against it and rose proudly superior. Such is not the course adopted by tyranny in democratic republics; there the body is left free, and the soul is enslaved. The master no longer says: "You shall think as I do or you shall die"; but he says: "You are free to think differently from me and to retain your life, your property, and all that you possess; but you are henceforth a stranger among your people. You may retain your civil rights, but they will be useless to you, for you will never be chosen by your fellow citizens if you solicit their votes; and they will affect to scorn you if you ask for their esteem. You will remain among men, but you will be deprived of the rights of mankind. Your fellow creatures will shun you like an impure being; and even those who believe in your innocence will abandon you, lest they should be shunned in their turn. Go in peace! I have given you your life, but it is an existence worse than death."

                            I neither wish for your adulation's or scorn, I wish to be free to decide my own fate against your "tyranny of the majority".  A freedom defined by equity under law and enforced by our created government.

                            You use your scorn in an attempt to deny me these things.  Thanks, but no thanks.

                            -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                            by gerrilea on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 01:11:27 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Ever heard of citizenship? Democracy? (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Smoh, Avila

                            I think that my ability to vote for or against gun laws, or to elect reps who do it for me, is my right as a citizen.

                            You don't.  

                            And you want to make sure that my rights as a citizen in a democracy is eliminated in favor of your "I'd like".   Well, not just my rights, of course, but all the rights of the majority.  

                            Amazingly, you consider any restriction on your whim in a democracy to be tyranny.   When in fact it's the other way around: the person who is free to do as he wishes without regard to anyone else's legitimate desires is the tyrant.  Just because your ambitions as far as we know is limited to your idee fixe on guns doesn't make you less antidemocratic, if not antisocial and dangerous in more ways than bullets.

                            That's not even "gun control". It's more like "massacre control".

                            by Inland on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 02:29:17 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  What does this have to do with what I stated? (0+ / 0-)

                            You wish for the abrogation of rights you don't like or agree with.  The same ideological trick used by the "Moral Majority".  

                            Government by Decree is tyranny hon, look it up.

                            And by the way, I've never owned a firearm, this isn't about me owning one but about us all having the right to do so if we so chose.  

                            Your "democracy" has denied me the right to marry.  Prove that your position isn't any different than theirs.

                            -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                            by gerrilea on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 02:48:04 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Not rights, and not "I". (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Smoh, Avila

                            The actual majority, not some group, in our consitutional republic.That's not "I".

                            But if it makes you feel better to pretend that laws passed by majority rule or through elected represenatives is "government by decree", go ahead.  But in reality, it's the person who declares that "I'd like" has the force of law is the person who is, literally, saying that his decree is the law.  

                            Your "democracy" has denied me the right to marry.  Prove that your position isn't any different than theirs
                            Shrug.  I already know you dislike democracy for all the wrong reasons.  I''m not impressed that you're searching for a good one.

                            That's not even "gun control". It's more like "massacre control".

                            by Inland on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 03:16:46 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Semantics meant to hide YOUR position. (0+ / 0-)

                            I believe in Equity Under Law and the rule of law that is just.

                            I believe in the expansion of our rights to all people, no matter, race, color or creed.

                            I believe our government must ensure these things, not take them away because you want it.

                            What I want is tempered by that goddamn piece of paper called the Constitution.

                            Did not the majority, through the popular vote, ie referendum, vote to deny me said Equity Under Law?  Are you not now espousing the same tactic???

                            Maybe you haven't reviewed what my State just did in January, The NYS SAFE Act denies me a right by decree, not by the "rule of law".  I am a recovered Alcoholic & Transgendered Woman, both are identified as "mental illnesses" and are part of who I am.  

                            The "rule of law" would demand that I be found guilty of some crime BEFORE I'm denied the exercise of any rights.  Not so today.  I'm denied the exercise of a right by decree, not by a court of law and a jury of my peers, as would be the requirement in our constitutional republic.

                            Soon you'll be telling me that "due process", as outlined in said document, does not mean "judicial process".

                            Oh, wait, is that you Eric Holder???

                            As for me "not liking democracy", that's a creation in your own mind.  The dangers inherent in the rule of the majority must be kept in check.  That is why we have a Constitutional Republic, not a democracy.  The masses can easily be led, to their own destruction or the destruction of minority rights.  The rights of the minority have throughout history, always been abrogated, never protected from the tyranny of "majority rule".

                            I'll never support a plan that will deny the expansion of rights to all people, clearly you do.

                             

                            -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                            by gerrilea on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 08:01:18 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  And you want the right to be world's superpower. (0+ / 0-)

                            It's amazing how you managed to forget that among all your high ideals is your assertion of a constitutional right to have more arms than the USG.

                            Whatever.  No amount of wanting reasonable things can take away from the fact that you wanting...the "I'd like"...is elevated to a constitutional right, where as what I want doesn't count for shit.  I don't care how benevolent a dictator you are.   And you call ME the tyrant.  What a pile of crap.

                            The dangers inherent in the rule of the majority must be kept in check.
                            Maybe.  But not by you or any other individual who makes "I'd like" into the final word.  

                            That's not even "gun control". It's more like "massacre control".

                            by Inland on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 08:57:12 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Wow, just because I want it doesn't mean I'll (0+ / 0-)

                            ever get it.

                            It's just on my "wish list", that's all.  I wish to have that right, which by the way, I currently do, if I move out of NYS.

                            ;0

                            All joking aside, the point was that we were to be the government and it's enforcer...  That our government should not have any more arms than we do.  That was to be the "check" on tyranny.  Can't have a dictator if they don't have the force.  Another reason why our government was spread out and localized or "diffused".  The concentration of power is dangerous, always has been and always will be.

                            -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                            by gerrilea on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 10:28:14 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

            •  So Is Climate Change The Paranoid Kook Issue Bob? (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              gerrilea

              because there are certainly people here referring to climate change as "SHTF," but they are talking more in generational or geological time scales and nobody seems to be saying  "Getcher gun! Getcher gun!" in that context.

              There’s always free cheddar in a mousetrap, baby

              by bernardpliers on Sun Mar 31, 2013 at 09:46:30 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  Oh And There's A Typical Troll Tactic (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          gerrilea
          Are you saying no one here has used that exact (2+ / 0-)
          ... terminology or the acronym for that phrase?
          This is the "Troll reading assignment" tactic, which is a common on-line passive aggressive tactic. .

          Someone makes a troll statement then demands that other people prove or disprove there statement, rather than backing it up themselves.

          There’s always free cheddar in a mousetrap, baby

          by bernardpliers on Sun Mar 31, 2013 at 09:54:02 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  bernard, I was simply pointing out that the phrase (10+ / 0-)

            ... "when the shit hits the fan" or the acronym SHTF has been used in relation to the need to carry a gun here by those who regularly carry weapons. I then offered examples of just such uses.

            I understand you don't like that, but it is a verifiable fact, bernard. Perhaps you've missed these mentions.

            Here's a thread with an RKBA member parroting, almost word-for-word, a Wayne LaPierre screed about being prepared with an AR15 in the event of a natural disaster and the anarchy and lawlessness that is sure to soon follow.

            This is exactly what I discuss in my initial comment in this thread.

            Suggested liberal gun lovers' motto: "More liberal than the NRA on everything except guns."

            by Bob Johnson on Sun Mar 31, 2013 at 10:05:03 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Well Bob You Haven't Proved That Point Have You? (0+ / 0-)
              ... "when the shit hits the fan" or the acronym SHTF has been used in relation to the need to carry a gun here by those who regularly carry weapons.
              So far you haven't come up with anyone who "carrys weapons" because of SHTF worries.

              Maybe you'll find an example if you look hard enough, and then you'll only be 98% bullshit.

              There’s always free cheddar in a mousetrap, baby

              by bernardpliers on Sun Mar 31, 2013 at 10:07:47 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  You know, I'm having a little trouble (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              zinger99, gerrilea

              figuring out your particular objection. Is it the idea of SHTF, or the 'few' (your after the fact qualification) kossacks who point toward SHTF scenarios as another good (to them) reason to own and/or carry a gun?

              Because SHTF scenarios are a dime a dozen any hour of the day or night here, and there are quite a few issue-theme diaries dealing with various aspects of SHTF prep and/or survival and/or advocacy of policies designed to mitigate SHTF scenarios.

              I figure that if one can legitimately use SHTF scenarios for things like homesteading, food production/ preservation, knowledge of skills almost extinct these days (making soap, rendering fats/oils, designing and installing renewable power generation capabilities, etc., I'd expect that the same sub-justification applies about equally to one's choice to keep and bear arms. Why would it not?

              •  OK, Let's Review What Bob's Fabulous Claims (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                gerrilea
                The more I read from the conceal carry/open carry crowd, the more I wonder how that feeling continues to infect so much of the gun crowd.

                When I read comments here on Daily Kos from those who regularly carry weapons about being "prepared if the shit hits the fan," I have to wonder what kind scenarios must be playing out in there heads.

                This kind of fear-induced, paranoid belief is stoked by the NRA. In fact, some of the writing I have seen here is a direct echo of the Wayne LaPierre fear formulation about the horrendous and frightening world that takes place after natural disasters, for example.

                The fact that Forde was able to combine this kind of "end times" vision with fear of the "other," is just a further extension of what has been playing out in the gun culture for the last couple of decades when the place of guns on society has transitioned from hunting and varmint elimination to "self-defense."

                The development of the language of fear has been the only way for gun manufacturers to ratchet up sales as hunting has declined in an increasingly urban population.

                Now, we get even a number of folks here who paint this doom scenarios as their very reason for packing heat.

                Bob is explicitly stating that there are people on DailyKos who want a gun on them at all times ("concealed carry," "carry weapons," "packing heat") because of their apocalyptic beliefs, which involve the looming instant collapse of society (like "Doomsday Preppers").  There are people like this, and they can be found on far right wing web sites where they all worry about having to hike home from TGIFs shooting their way through a horde of radioactive zombies (or Puerto Ricans).

                Furthermore, Bob claims that he sees people on DailyKos actually saying they need a gun on their hip at all times because the world might just end in the next  couple hours.  Now he's digging himself into a hole.

                There’s always free cheddar in a mousetrap, baby

                by bernardpliers on Sun Mar 31, 2013 at 12:46:40 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Well, you haven't been exactly (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Quicklund, gerrilea

                  Mister Calm and Rational in this either, but I do understand your objections. I was merely asking Bob how come a defensive weapon is any less legitimate than staking out a defensible and productive piece of property away from the city and learning how to grow corn is when it comes to notions of SHTF.

                  Given scenarios where shit hits fan, of course. Everybody's got their own ideas of when things become so disarranged that survival mode kicks in. Hell, my limit of tolerance was exceeded twenty years ago, my family will do fine when/if some big version of SHTF happens. Some would consider global financial collapse to factor large in such a scenario, and that's been happening for half a decade already. As the energy situation becomes completely untenable, natural resources are done with being depleted, and the Norquist zombies get their wish for total anarchy, others will take whatever steps they can and feel are necessary if they care to survive.

                  I'm just wondering where Bob draws the line, or if he truly believes there's nothing going wrong in this country/world that voting for some fully pre-approved and duly leashed politician can't cure.

                  •  Bob's Theme Is Used For Threadjacks Day After Day (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    gerrilea

                    And there's the usual gang of people willing to HR anyone who complains, but they've actually been well behaved today.

                    This should be a concern about anyone that really wants some form of gun control, because this sort of highly repetitive wankery isn't really helping their cause (if in fact they give a rat's ass about guns).

                    You notice, I'm not even taking a position on any of these issues, I'm just calling him out for making up shit.

                    There’s always free cheddar in a mousetrap, baby

                    by bernardpliers on Sun Mar 31, 2013 at 04:58:06 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Meh. (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      gerrilea, Smoh

                      Bob's talking points are no more canned tripe than the NRA's. After awhile, it's pointless from either direction. The rhetoric of the gun control issue hasn't changed, probably never will. I'd just hoped that this time the public outcry and strong levels of support would result in some reasonable restrictions to an unfettered right to willful mayhem. If not on rifle styles, at least on magazine capacity and background checks. Maybe ammo as well. Hell, I'd have added liability insurance requirements.

                      If we couldn't even get that much, Bob's rhetoric doesn't mean shit to a tree. I'm sure that's a lot more frustrating to him than his repetition of canned talking points is frustrating to you.

                      •  NRA Talking Points Don't Threadjack On DK (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        gerrilea

                        I don't see people randomly threadjackinng with NRA talking points here.  I do see people trying to conflate gun ownership with paranoia and white supremacy on a daily basis on DailyKos.  Browse my comments for examples.

                        There’s always free cheddar in a mousetrap, baby

                        by bernardpliers on Sun Mar 31, 2013 at 08:32:35 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Well, fact of the matter (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          gerrilea, Smoh

                          is that given the actual diary to which your comments have predictably resulted in this march to the right, it is you who have done the threadjacking. The diary is about a notable murderous psychopathic right-winger nut job, not about Bob's grumpy one-liners (for which he and his dog are famous), nor is it about your defensive sensibilities on prominent display.

                          You should have figured out by now that there are lots of kossacks who abhor guns and/or cower in abject fear of guns. Jacking threads and/or diaries denigrating guns and gun owners on those terms is pointless, nobody's mind gets changed.

                          I am a gun owner. Of course my gun is a display of my fear (paranoia) of the things/situations I may need a gun to deal with. The question there is whether or not there's good reason for me or anyone else to be paranoid enough to own a gun, and THAT is the thrust of my question to Bob. Sort of an "aren't things weird enough for you yet?" type of thing per the SHTF reference.

                          I see no reason to get personally offended whenever someone notices the implicit paranoia of owning a gun. I think it's rather humorous, in fact, that people who whine the most about gun owners being paranoid are those who are the most paranoid of guns.

                          Nobody shoots anybody via the internet. And nobody disarms anybody via the internet. See how that works?

                        •  Or, to make it easier, (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          gerrilea, Smoh

                          I now have a question for you...

                          Are you trying to claim that owning a gun for defensive purposes does NOT display paranoia of people/situations where you might need a gun to defend yourself?

                          •  An individual (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Joieau, gerrilea, andalusi

                            may or may not have a degree of concern/fear that rises to the level of actual paranoia, but still own a gun expressly for possible defensive use.

                            "A lie is not the other side of a story; it's just a lie."

                            by happy camper on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 09:30:13 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I wasn't going to get picky (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            happy camper, Smoh

                            about the specific term, since it's bandied about from so many directions so indiscriminately these days that it's lost all particular specificity. Just means "afraid" of whatever the term is tossed as applying to. Not much punch as an epithet.

                            I see 'paranoia' in the watered-down sense as being entirely legitimate on both sides of this coin. For whatever that's worth.

                            I would never advise someone terrified of guns to get a gun for defensive use. In that scenario they are much more likely to end up shot by their own gun. Nor would I ever try to prevent someone sincerely afraid of criminals from getting a gun for defensive purposes. Even though they too are much more likely to end up shot by their own gun. It's a right, people choose to exercise it or not.

                            People who are not afraid of guns or people with guns are the only ones who don't deserve the watered-down label 'paranoid'.

          •  bernardpliers, you've utterly out-trolled Bob here (19+ / 0-)

            Bob made one reasonable, thoughtful comment responding directly to the substance of the diary. It was his opinion, and you clearly think he's exaggerating his case.

            Since then, you've thrown a lot of insults and over-reactions (blowing small details out of proportion) at Bob, and have managed to thread-jack one third of the comments in this diary with your personal animus towards Bob.

            Also, since Bob is speaking with a calmer voice, and backing his points up with actual examples, you are making your whole side of the argument appear representative of "gun nuts" who blow up instead of discussing things civilly.

            You do make Bob's work easy.

            "Every man has a right to utter what he thinks truth" Samuel Johnson

            by Brecht on Sun Mar 31, 2013 at 10:13:46 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Bob's Straw Man Arguement Is Used Daily Here (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              gerrilea

              The premise that DK is infested with right wing conspiracy nuts has become the conventional wisdom among a group of users here, and it gets aired nearly every day, sometimes in multiple diaries.

              If this rose to the level of a metaconspiracy theory (that the supposed conspiracy nuts at  DK are all colluding in some sinister design), then it would rise to the level of CT or Witch Hunt and it could be HR'd on sight.

              There’s always free cheddar in a mousetrap, baby

              by bernardpliers on Sun Mar 31, 2013 at 10:41:32 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  And Bob Compares DK Users To White Supremacist (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              gerrilea

              ...child killers.  And I outdid that? Really.

              There’s always free cheddar in a mousetrap, baby

              by bernardpliers on Sun Mar 31, 2013 at 10:49:15 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  Bob Johnson a troll? (8+ / 0-)

        First time for everything I suppose.

        ...better the occasional faults of a government that lives in a spirit of charity, than the consistent omissions of a government frozen in the ice of its own indifference. -FDR, 1936

        by James Allen on Sun Mar 31, 2013 at 09:17:47 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  you are calling bob johnson's words troll bs? (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        zinger99, Smoh, Avila

        uh - you are so seriously out of line that you are beside yourself in your twisting.

        sheesh!

        EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

        by edrie on Sun Mar 31, 2013 at 01:30:02 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Again, Let's Review (2+ / 4-)
          Recommended by:
          gerrilea, annecros
          Hidden by:
          vcmvo2, Quicklund, Eyesbright, indycam

          Bob claims that he sees people here on DailyKos saying that they need a gun on their hip  ("concealed carry," "carry weapons," "packing heat") because of these DK members have distinctly right-wing racially-tinged apocalyptic beliefs.  You know, like the people on far right web sites that specifically want a gun on them at all times so they can battle their way home through hordes of brown skinned looters.

          Furthermore, Bob is comparing these DK members (that he swears exist) with the  white supremacist child killers in this diary.

          Again let's review Bob's words.

          The more I read from the conceal carry/open carry crowd, the more I wonder how that feeling continues to infect so much of the gun crowd.

          When I read comments here on Daily Kos from those who regularly carry weapons about being "prepared if the shit hits the fan," I have to wonder what kind scenarios must be playing out in there heads.

          This kind of fear-induced, paranoid belief is stoked by the NRA. In fact, some of the writing I have seen here is a direct echo of the Wayne LaPierre fear formulation about the horrendous and frightening world that takes place after natural disasters, for example.

          The fact that Forde was able to combine this kind of "end times" vision with fear of the "other," is just a further extension of what has been playing out in the gun culture for the last couple of decades when the place of guns on society has transitioned from hunting and varmint elimination to "self-defense."

          The development of the language of fear has been the only way for gun manufacturers to ratchet up sales as hunting has declined in an increasingly urban population.

          Now, we get even a number of folks here who paint this doom scenarios as their very reason for packing heat.

          There’s always free cheddar in a mousetrap, baby

          by bernardpliers on Sun Mar 31, 2013 at 01:48:06 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  enough spamming! (9+ / 0-)

            This comment over and over does not prove what you think it does. Hr'ed.

            Knock it off!

            In our sleep, pain which cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart until, in our own despair, comes wisdom through the awful grace of God ~RFK

            by vcmvo2 on Sun Mar 31, 2013 at 09:51:55 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  It proves exactly that. Enough of the doublespeak (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              annecros

              Uprated for bogus HR.

              -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

              by gerrilea on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 10:52:27 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  wrongful uprate. (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Quicklund, Smoh, indubitably, Avila

                He's spamming the same comment over and over.

                In our sleep, pain which cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart until, in our own despair, comes wisdom through the awful grace of God ~RFK

                by vcmvo2 on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 12:35:09 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I do not agree that it is even close to spamming. (0+ / 0-)

                  Everyone has hidden B'pilers replies that include false accusations against many of us here on DK.

                  He did cross a line on the alcoholism accusations and undermined his own position but that's it.

                  And by HR'ing the comment in question you leave unanswered the those comments by Bob J.  Left here for all to see is how those of us that support the entire Bill Of Rights, even for "undocumented people", are treated.

                  I won't reply again in this diary, I've read enough dishonestly and red herrings to last me for weeks.

                  -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                  by gerrilea on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 08:26:26 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Oh Spare Me! (0+ / 0-)

                    And I've seen enough wrongful uprates and nastiness to last me a lifetime. No one has the copyright on righteousness and the entire Bill of Rights is appended to the Constitution, no right gets elevated above the others. No picking and chosing.

                    I studied it in law school according to you all I didn't have to do that. I just had to read the 2nd amendment. And of course read it your way.

                    I totally disagree with this court and how they've read it. Shocking I know - there are many ways to interpret the Constitution. Think about it.

                    In our sleep, pain which cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart until, in our own despair, comes wisdom through the awful grace of God ~RFK

                    by vcmvo2 on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 08:43:17 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Clearly I have, thanks. (0+ / 0-)

                      RKBA: The States' Ratification Documents

                      If history were anything other than what I presented over 3 yrs ago, I'll correct my position.

                      I leave it up to you to "think about it." And prove me wrong historically.  Maybe there is some unknown obscure book, article or Congressional Debate that I've missed.  One that occurred when the 2nd Amendment was being adopted that establishes your position as valid.

                      We can debate today how said piece of paper is "interpreted" but there is no legitimate debate on what the 2nd A was doing, ensuring the individual right to keep and bear arms, for all people.

                      -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                      by gerrilea on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 08:59:23 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

    •  Yes! The Heller and McDonald decisions (7+ / 0-)

      by the five-member majority on the court may be a bigger threat to our country than Citizens United. Those decisions gave legal credence to the claim that people have a Second Amendment right to a gun for self defense. That's something that did not exist before, nor would it today if the four-member minority had prevailed with their "well-regulated militia" interpretation of the 2nd.

      Of course, the gun lobby and their allies claim rights far beyond what the decisions actually say. Steve King wrote:

      It is clear that the Second Amendment protects the individual's right to bear arms and that the right of the people to defend themselves against tyranny is the reason for the Second Amendment. ... The proposed Assault Weapons Ban violates the Second Amendment.
      •  If self defense were not (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ER Doc, happy camper, gerrilea

        a legitimate justification for owning and/or using a gun, no state would have self defense listed in their criminal codes as a legitimate justification for gun USE, proceeding upon the implicit 'given' that Americans have a second amendment right to keep and bear arms. Per my experience and knowledge since my great-grandparent's time it has always been legal to protect home and family with a gun should the need arise.

        Far as I can tell, it's been legal since before there was a United States of America to have and use a firearm to protect home and family from direct threat, at least for enfranchised white males and derivative to their wimmin-folk, kids and designated agents.

        •  But it's not the unlimited right (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Joieau, Smoh, Avila, splintersawry

          that the NRA claims. Steve King's claim that he has a Second Amendment right to his AR-15 with a 30-round magazine (yes, he has one) would probably not be upheld even in the current Roberts court if Congress passed the assault weapons ban.

          •  Perhaps, perhaps not. (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            cocinero, ER Doc, happy camper, gerrilea

            I don't much care. I'd support even greater restrictions, especially in urban areas. But nobody listens to me, especially not anyone in the legislature or the judicial systems.

            And as of right now Steve King is correct - he has the right to both the gun and the magazine, as well as to the ammunition. The question is whether or not that right will be compromised in the future, and whether King, et al. get grandfathered. Or the gub'ment wants to go door to door... which is probably not a great idea, all things considered.

            That's just reality, like it or not.

            •  Agreed (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Joieau, Avila, Smoh

              I don't think King has to worry. No one is going to take his AR-15. If an assault weapons ban becomes law (not likely, but possible, at least in some states) it almost certainly will grandfather in existing weapons for their owners (but they might not be able to legally sell them).

              Until the Heller and McDonald decisions, courts consistently upheld gun control laws and the Supreme Court consistently refused to review those rulings.

              Courts have been on the side of gun control laws, but the NRA has worked hard to get pro-gun judges in office. That's why they fought so hard (and successfully) against the confirmation of Caitlin Halligan for the D.C. circuit.

          •  Not the point, moving the goal posts establishes (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Joieau

            the failure here.

            From this:

            Those decisions gave legal credence to the claim that people have a Second Amendment right to a gun for self defense.
            To this:
            But it's not the unlimited right
            How can there be a legitimate discussion when you do this???

            -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

            by gerrilea on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 10:55:01 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Hint: It's not a legitimate discussion. (0+ / 0-)

              Period. Nor can it be a legitimate discussion at this time and place. Best to understand and accept that for what it is. Emotions talking, and emotions don't communicate very well in plain English.

              Every single time I've ever had to use my gun in a defensive situation, I have been afraid. When the need has arisen to the point of commitment, however, my pissed off-ness beats the fear every time. That at least facilitates a good show, and a good show has proven to be a useful thing. That's the 'paranoid' card being played here. Yet I've discovered that my aim isn't all that bad when I'm afraid. At least, not with a shotgun [point it in the general direction]. Which is why I have a shotgun.

              I am not afraid of guns, nor am I afraid of people with guns. I fear those situations for which a gun is the best tool. Only a few times in my life has such a situation involved a human on the business end, and none involved discharge. So far, I'm entirely pleased with the usefulness of the tool for the purpose.

              All in all, I'd rate rabid coons and starving, injured dogs (left in the woods every year by asshole hunters) as much scarier than those humans have thus far been. But it's all an adrenalin rush that can leave one shaky for hours after the tense situation is over. Bears are a rush too, though a shotgun - or whole classes of guns - are absolutely NOT the correct tool against the nuisance. Did chase one out of the trash one day with a garden rake (she really pissed me off). About gave my grandson a heart attack...

    •  Fear breeds fear & arms makers profits go up. (7+ / 0-)

      You have exactly 10 seconds to change that look of disgusting pity into one of enormous respect!

      by Cartoon Peril on Sun Mar 31, 2013 at 09:30:19 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I guess you aren't familiar with the concept of (0+ / 0-)

      maintaining the "balance of terror" then.  Because that's pretty much the only such argument I have heard here.

      You have watched Faux News, now lose 2d10 SAN.

      by Throw The Bums Out on Sun Mar 31, 2013 at 11:26:22 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Oh my. (0+ / 0-)

      You seem to be upsetting that crowd. Congratulations.

      Cats are better than therapy, and I'm a therapist.

      by Smoh on Sun Mar 31, 2013 at 06:10:29 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  ... (0+ / 0-)

      obsession photo: Obsession obsession.jpg

      I see what you did there.

      by GoGoGoEverton on Sun Mar 31, 2013 at 06:19:18 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  So says the person whom insists that (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Captain Janeway, gerrilea, andalusi

      innocent Americans have to surrender their liberties for your fears.

      "paranoia" indeed.

      Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

      by FrankRose on Sun Mar 31, 2013 at 11:38:36 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Whose Viewpoint Is Closer To The Child Killers? (0+ / 0-)

        On the one hand you have the white supremacists putting all their sickness on the  immigrant boogey man, singling them out as the source of all that is evil.

        And then we have Bob, with his blanket indictment of gun owners as evil boogey men - evil, menacing, sick, and dangerous.  

        Both Bob and the Minutemen seem to be driven by the need to have people to demonize and devalue.  

        For racists, the cause is usually a massive sense of personal inferiority.

        Connect the dots.

        There’s always free cheddar in a mousetrap, baby

        by bernardpliers on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 01:12:41 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Bob Compares DK Users To Nazi Child Killers (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      gerrilea

      Bob claims that he sees people here on DailyKos saying that they need a gun on their hip ("concealed carry," "carry weapons," "packing heat") because of these DK members have distinctly right-wing racially-tinged apocalyptic beliefs.  You know, like the people on far right web sites that specifically want a gun on them at all times so they can battle their way home through hordes of brown skinned looters.

      Despite these sensational and trollish claims, Bob can't seem to find any DK users that are actually packing concealed weapons because they expect the end of the world in the next 24 hours.

      Furthermore, Bob is comparing these DK members (that he swears exist) with the  white supremacist child killers in this diary.

      Again let's review Bob's words.

        The more I read from the conceal carry/open carry crowd, the more I wonder how that feeling continues to infect so much of the gun crowd.

          When I read comments here on Daily Kos from those who regularly carry weapons about being "prepared if the shit hits the fan," I have to wonder what kind scenarios must be playing out in there heads.

          This kind of fear-induced, paranoid belief is stoked by the NRA. In fact, some of the writing I have seen here is a direct echo of the Wayne LaPierre fear formulation about the horrendous and frightening world that takes place after natural disasters, for example.

          The fact that Forde was able to combine this kind of "end times" vision with fear of the "other," is just a further extension of what has been playing out in the gun culture for the last couple of decades when the place of guns on society has transitioned from hunting and varmint elimination to "self-defense."

          The development of the language of fear has been the only way for gun manufacturers to ratchet up sales as hunting has declined in an increasingly urban population.

         Now, we get even a number of folks here who paint this doom scenarios as their very reason for packing heat.

      There’s always free cheddar in a mousetrap, baby

      by bernardpliers on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 12:31:59 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Right wingers... (10+ / 0-)
    A significant aspect of the scapegoating rhetoric common to right-wing nativist movements—rhetoric that is almost wholly structured around building outrage and anger in their audience and overwhelming rationality—is a kind of competitive escalation
    So true. In the modern Republican Party the more irrational one gets the louder the cheers from the base become. The "centrists" become extreme and the extremists go completely off the edge.

    "Patients are not consumers" - Paul Krugman

    by assyrian64 on Sun Mar 31, 2013 at 09:00:49 AM PDT

    •  Good Thing We Never Do That! Oh wait.... nt (0+ / 0-)

      There’s always free cheddar in a mousetrap, baby

      by bernardpliers on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 01:13:38 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Asdf... (0+ / 0-)

        The extreme right which rejects climate change, thinks the earth is 6000 years old, often calls for secession, and wants to decrease Mitts taxes currently owns the Republican Party.

        The extreme left currently consists of 3 aging Marxists in a basement in Perth Amboy.

        "Patients are not consumers" - Paul Krugman

        by assyrian64 on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 11:56:37 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  There's Few Extreme Ideological Leftists (0+ / 0-)

          And then there's leftists that are just histrionic rageaholics, which get mistaken for people for people with an ideology.  

          There’s always free cheddar in a mousetrap, baby

          by bernardpliers on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 07:57:02 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Qwerty... (0+ / 0-)

            Well, you are talking of behavior, while Im referring to policies and positions. Yes indeed there are some angry moderates among us I suppose, tho I am not so concerned about them as I am about those who would like to send us back a few centuries, who are opposed to science, equal rights, etc.

            "Patients are not consumers" - Paul Krugman

            by assyrian64 on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 10:04:41 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  I remember listening to the 911 call on NPR (8+ / 0-)

    who did a segment on it.

    How Gina Gonzalez had the presence of mind, after being shot multiple times, her husband and one of her kids dead, for all she know both of her kids dead, she goes out in the kitchen, gets their handgun, and shoots the returning murderers, I just don't know.

    Ordinary people can rise to heights of unbelievable bravery when faced with impossible situations.

    It's also a very good example of a defensive gun use because everyone understands that without that gun in the kitchen Gina would very likely not be alive to tell the tale and her husbands kilers might have gotten away with it.

    How big is your personal carbon footprint?

    by ban nock on Sun Mar 31, 2013 at 09:08:29 AM PDT

    •  Yes, Gonzalez was truly heroic (9+ / 0-)

      Talk about keeping your head together under impossible circumstances ... the dispatcher too, was amazing.

    •  The various "accidental" shootings featured on (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      lyvwyr101, JerryNA, Smoh

      GunFAIL need to be taken into account in determining the merits of a decision to keep a loaded firearm on one's house.

      You have exactly 10 seconds to change that look of disgusting pity into one of enormous respect!

      by Cartoon Peril on Sun Mar 31, 2013 at 09:33:36 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I never go into those posts anymore (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ER Doc

        reading people making jokes about the deaths of little kids is beyond the pale. After I said something on one the diarist stopped joking himself, but I imagine it still goes on in comments.

        Thankfully accidental firearm fatalities continue their steep decline, but any death is one too  many. I only wish parents were as careful with water. http://familiesafield.org/...

        How big is your personal carbon footprint?

        by ban nock on Sun Mar 31, 2013 at 09:54:07 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Plenty of grown up fools have "accidentally" (0+ / 0-)

          shot themselves or others while cleaning their guns or what have you.

          You have exactly 10 seconds to change that look of disgusting pity into one of enormous respect!

          by Cartoon Peril on Sun Mar 31, 2013 at 10:42:09 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Carelessness or poor habits, I won't criticize (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Cartoon Peril, ER Doc

            so to not jinx myself.

            592 altogether in 08 (by my chart)
            The next one higher was machinery at 693 which is close to home, an old friend's husband dropped a 100 gallon water tank (full) on his chest from the bucket on his tractor this year and broke most of his ribs, punctured lungs, broke a leg, and spent a total of 98 days in the ICU, but made it, at the young age of 64.

            1400 from natural/environmental which would be heat stroke, or freezing or getting eaten by bears I guess. Interesting that choking is up, the elderly maybe?

            I have an interest in preventing accidents from years working out of helicopters and also technical climbing. Often thoughtful habits can push the odds considerably in your favor.

            How big is your personal carbon footprint?

            by ban nock on Sun Mar 31, 2013 at 11:00:05 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  "I imagine." (0+ / 0-)

          And we finally get to why you've really removed yourself from the discussion.

          I knew it would come out eventually.

    •  Some quibbles... (0+ / 0-)

      Did you catch the line about the people attacked being marijuana dealers?  The gun in the home arguably wasn't for family defense so much as illegal business defense.  I can't argue with your characterization of the bravery of Mrs. Gonzalez, but I cannot cast her in the role of 'hero' either.  No matter what my stance is on legalizing marijuana, it's sale is currently illegal in Arizona.  The vigilante killers were 100% wrong, but no one can call the whole family as totally innocent victims.  Yes, the post shows a picture of the young girl, but don't make the mistake of painting halos on all of the adults.  Illegal drug sales is a criminal enterprise, dangerous and potentially violent, even if this particular instance was glossed over as "locally accepted".

      I would also like to point out that this raid by vigilantes was totally illegal, but a similar raid by police in paramilitary gear with a no-knock warrant might have been totally legal, even if it resulted in the same deaths.  Our society would have tolerated the morally reprehensible in that situation over the physically (not legally) nearly identical situation depicted above.  We need to roll back the militarization of our police, eliminate civil forfeiture, drastically rein in no-knock warrants, and repeal this so-called war on drugs (which is a total failure).

  •  Excellent post (7+ / 0-)

    Twisted and hate filled individuals like Forde may be but we need to recognize that the appeal of bigoted scapegoating and incitement to violence isn't limited to such clearly pathological characters. Such types associate themselves with tendencies like the Minutemen and the Tea Party precisely because it gives them entree to a far broader audience of potential dupes than they could ever access on their own. People who, absent the propaganda that relentlessly plays on grievances both real and imagined to promote a paranoid xenophobia, would pass for normal, albeit conservative, folks.

    Nothing human is alien to me.

    by WB Reeves on Sun Mar 31, 2013 at 09:10:10 AM PDT

  •  The right wing movement has not attracted... (10+ / 0-)

    ...an effective leader.  However evil and manipulative this Shauna was, she is incapable of being effective at a national level.

    But one day they may get some intelligent and well educated psychopath racist who may lead them.  Then we have a serious problem.

    Daily Kos an oasis of truth. Truth that leads to action.

    by Shockwave on Sun Mar 31, 2013 at 09:12:03 AM PDT

  •  Forde received the death sentence in 2011 n/t (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    figbash, lyvwyr101, Smoh

    "You can die for Freedom, you just can't exercise it"

    by shmuelman on Sun Mar 31, 2013 at 09:12:13 AM PDT

  •  I've watched loathsomeness emerge and then (9+ / 0-)

    submerge with characters like this for fifty plus years in this country. There is a great vein of goodness in this country, and also a very dark, psychotic one.

    "They come, they come To build a wall between us We know they won't win."--Crowded House, "Don't Dream It's Over."

    by Wildthumb on Sun Mar 31, 2013 at 09:13:41 AM PDT

  •  Example 1,683,456 (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    lyvwyr101, on the cusp, Avila

    of how having guns in the home did not help this poor family. I'm gonna guess Forde and her fellow Tea Baggers were/are NRA.

    No Jesus, Know Peace

    by plok on Sun Mar 31, 2013 at 09:15:00 AM PDT

  •  Shawna Forde's type of thug is found in the (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    lyvwyr101, Avila

    profiles I've read of SS leaders who carried out the Holocaust.

    Find out about my next big thing by reading my blog. Link is here: http://bettysrants.wordpress.com/2013/01/05/my-next-big-thing/

    by Kimball Cross on Sun Mar 31, 2013 at 09:21:47 AM PDT

  •  There's constant talk of violence on National (10+ / 0-)

    Review, and not just among the commenters.  A few days ago, editor Kevin Williamson wrote:

    ... taking up arms against an oppressive government is hardly unprecedented, even in modern American history. When the people of McMinn County, Tenn., petitioned state and federal officials for relief from their corrupt, violent, election-rigging local government, and none was forthcoming, they took up arms against the ruling junta in order to stop its stealing another election.
    Williamson was referring to an incident in Tennessee in 1946 where it appears there was a exchange of gunfire between citizens and sheriff's deputies, with no one getting shot.  Williamson provides no ground for distinguishing the true patriots from the Tim McVeighs, I guess maybe he draws the line at actually killing people, although how one can have armed insurrection without killing escapes me.

    BTW in blogging on National Review, on several occasions I have been threatened (it that's possible to do to anonymous person on a blog) with being shot, etc. as a liberal, progressive, or whatever.  

    You have exactly 10 seconds to change that look of disgusting pity into one of enormous respect!

    by Cartoon Peril on Sun Mar 31, 2013 at 09:22:55 AM PDT

  •  Crime Shows About Criminal Wingnuts (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ban nock, lyvwyr101, on the cusp

    That would keep me watching MSNBC on weekends. Not Lockup.

  •  There is no viable political opposition (0+ / 0-)

    in this country---anymore.

    The political right is composed of whackos---extremists---and end timers.

    They're all nuts.

    Mayan Word For 'Apocalypse' Actually Translates More Accurately As "Time Of Pale Obese Gun Monsters."......the Onion

    by lyvwyr101 on Sun Mar 31, 2013 at 10:23:34 AM PDT

  •  Keep an eye on this... (5+ / 0-)

    http://www.dallasnews.com/...

    From the article:

    In December, the Texas Department of Public Safety had issued a statewide bulletin warning that authorities had received “credible information” that the Aryan Brotherhood was “actively planning retaliation against law enforcement officials” who helped secure indictments in Houston against dozens of members, including the gang’s leadership.

    “High ranking members … are involved in issuing orders to inflict ‘mass casualties or death’ to law enforcement officials who were involved in cases where Aryan Brotherhood of Texas are facing life sentences or the death penalty,” the bulletin stated.

    Incessant talk by Gov. Blowhard lauding the secession of the state doesn't do much to discourage this sort of thing. I'd say some of the blood of DA McLelland, his wife and Asst. DA Mark Hasse is smeared on the hands of Gov. Blowhard.

    Inciting folks to look upon govt. as evil and to be skeptical of everything to do with the laws of man vs. the laws of "higher powers" and trouble making "patriots" gives a thumbs up to this anti social extremism.

    Texas is rather confused these days as to whether it wants to be a law and order state or a law hating and thwarting state. That confusion is casing some mortal problems.  

  •  The right wing is rife with dreams of killing (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    on the cusp, Sychotic1

    their political opponents.  For most of them fortunately it remains a dream and a basis for their endless blather about Freedom Gunz.  

    But there are always going to be the Shawna Fordes and Tim McVeighs who, in true Murder in the Cathedral style, take the talk seriously.  

    You have exactly 10 seconds to change that look of disgusting pity into one of enormous respect!

    by Cartoon Peril on Sun Mar 31, 2013 at 10:52:42 AM PDT

  •  The Phoenix New Times (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Sychotic1, Cartoon Peril, KenBee

    and Rick Anderson broke the story about this woman in 2009 and before. I hope they get some solid credit for their reporting.

  •  thank you, susan, for an excellent diary - and (4+ / 0-)

    i apologize for posting two non-related videos.  it was my attempt to end a very non-productive interjection into the diary.

    i followed your links and others to read of this woman's psychopathic behavior - i had missed the event when it occurred (most likely due to being overshadowed by dr. tiller's murder).

    that fanaticism leads to this degree of hatred and violence is so disturbing.  i would say i look forward to reading the book - but i don't (look forward, that is) - but from the excerpt you published here, i cannot pass by this author's means of portraying such an horrific event.  it is through this use of language that we can all learn and profit.

    i also visited the "homepage" for this woman and am very disturbed to see the large degree of denial from those who "follow" and support her.  that is the real american tragedy.

    now, i think i'm going to go back and watch the dressage videos of dr. klimke to restore some of the balance in my own life today.

    again, thank you for writing this...

    EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

    by edrie on Sun Mar 31, 2013 at 04:06:04 PM PDT

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