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... and it was the Egyptian military who burned churches in Egypt

According to Turkish Prime Minister Erdoğan who at a meeting of members of the ruling AKP today stated,

The Western logic that democracy is not the ballot box or democracy is not only the ballot box was implemented then and there are those who want to implement it now. But we say that the way of democracy is through the ballot box, the ballot box is the national will. Now it is this that is being implemented in Egypt. In Egypt what do they say, 'the ballot box is not democracy.' Who is behind this, Israel is.

Before the 2011 election at a meeting in France, with the Minister of Justice and a French intellectual who is a Jew, they made this statement there 'Even if the Muslim Brotherhood wins the election in Egypt they won't win because democracy is not an election.' Exactly, this is what is being implemented. So the West needs to grasp and learn the definition of democracy. ...

Prime Minister Erdoğan also stated,
... while the Muslim Brotherhood were protecting churches they [the Egyptian military] burned churches ...
Note: I have tried to translate the PM's statements as closely as possible to what he said.

Update: It is being reported that the French intellectual referred to by PM Erdoğan is Bernard Henri-Levy and statements he made during an interview he and Tzipi Livni had in June, 2011.

Some of the interview can be seen here:

http://webtv.hurriyet.com.tr/...


- * - * - * - * - * -

Turkish

http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/...

http://www.ihlassondakika.com/...

http://www.aa.com.tr/...

English

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/...

http://www.aa.com.tr/...

http://www.todayszaman.com/...

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Comment Preferences

  •  Very inflammatory rhetoric (5+ / 0-)

    Knowing history is important

    Egypt and Syria led the Yom Kippur Wat, the October war against Israel back in 1973

    Which led to the Camp David Accord

    Which failed

    Now look at Syria and Egypt.

    IF only Israel had relinquished Sinai and Gaza back then.....

    Sadly, any criticism of Israel reaps shouts of anti-semitism when, in my opinion, Israel shares in the responsibility for Middle East unrest although a stretch by Turkey to lay all the blame on Israel.

    Brave of you to report.

    It's difficult to be happy knowing so many suffer. We must unite.

    by War on Error on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 06:11:56 AM PDT

    •  Egypt's military opposed the Muslim Brotherhood (15+ / 0-)

      before the 1973 war.

      If you want to blame any nations for the mess in the mideast, blame the U.K and the U.S. See Meteor Blades' post about the coup in Iran 60 years ago.

      look for my eSci diary series Thursday evening.

      by FishOutofWater on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 06:37:48 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The blame is certainly shared, good point (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        unfangus, Johnny Q

        I was careful to not blame any one player although I sometimes wonder if there is a retaliatory element towards Egypt and Syria today because of the October war.

        And the US did back the Brotherhood/Bin Laden in its effort to defeat Russia in Afghanistan and then failed to learn by Russia's ten year failure.

        What a mess.

        It's difficult to be happy knowing so many suffer. We must unite.

        by War on Error on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 07:09:14 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  This is anti-semitism. No bravery there (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Lawrence, Hey338Too, TheHalfrican

      This is as ridiculous and despicable as the old "blood libels" and the Protocols of Zion. If you're endorsing it, the blood will  be on your hands, too.

      Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

      by FischFry on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 08:01:47 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  No one endorsed this (16+ / 0-)

        It's reporting, not endorsement.

        If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

        by AoT on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 12:45:45 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  The comment you're replying to was not to diarist (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          FishOutofWater

          It was a reply to someone who was calling calling it brave to report this charge. Brave, because of the substance. Endorsing it. Not the diarist. The commenter who called it "brave".

          Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

          by FischFry on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 02:15:59 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I said brave because I knew (0+ / 0-)

            People would bristle at the content.   Was shocked to see the HRs though.  It's a NEWS report

            I remember the DKOS IP flame wars all too well

            It's difficult to be happy knowing so many suffer. We must unite.

            by War on Error on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 09:45:46 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I removed my HR last night (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              War on Error

              But, I'm still not convinced it was just offered up as a news report -- not the way it was presented. Maybe that was unintentional but the diarist has been very close with her words and explanations in a way that doesn't make clear that she wasn't endorsing the content --

              ...Content which was not brave. Content which was abominable and as cowardly as can be. To level false charges that one can easily imagine fueling a terrorist act in the future, for craven political reasons -- there is nothing brave there.

              Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

              by FischFry on Wed Aug 21, 2013 at 07:08:15 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Is it brave....? (0+ / 0-)

              To pull out a gun on a busy street corner and start shooting passersby, or to throw bombs at them? This was rhetorical bomb-throwing aimed at innocents, but future bombs may not be rhetorical.

              Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

              by FischFry on Wed Aug 21, 2013 at 07:12:37 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  The diary clearly states these are quotes (19+ / 0-)

        from Erdoğan.

        InAntalya is a valuable diarist with a solid history here at duos. Your HR is bullshit: remove it.

        "I was a big supporter of waterboarding" - Dick Cheney 2/14/10 UID: 8519

        by Bob Love on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 12:53:59 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I have enjoyed much of what she(?) has written (0+ / 0-)

          I reacted to the way this was presented, which seemed to convey legitimacy on the charge because it came from the Turkish PM. And in all the hubbub the diarist has brought in response to the HRs, she has never repudiated the idea that one of the reasons she posted it is because she thinks the charge might have legitimacy.

          The fact that I wasn't the only one to react this way to it should be evidence that I was not being ridiculous.

          I even suggested a change that would put Erdogan up-front in the headline -- and the story -- rather than the charge. The diarist has not made such changes.
          So, until I see her saying that she did not want to endorse something so absurd -- that she reported here because the PM said something absurd -- I'm left with the impression that she intended to offer the charge to be considered seriously here, rather than the fact that someone important said something ridiculous.

          It's news if someone of note says global warming isn't happening, but if someone posts a diary that just quotes -- say -- an important scientist -- as saying he has evidence climate change isn't real -- without any editorial comment or context, how much you wanna bet it gets some HRs?

          Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

          by FischFry on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 02:33:21 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  You HR'd her style of presentation? (4+ / 0-)

            Sounds pretty bullshit to me.

            "I was a big supporter of waterboarding" - Dick Cheney 2/14/10 UID: 8519

            by Bob Love on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 02:38:30 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Wow. (0+ / 0-)

              Are you this obtuse? I'm saying it was presented in a way that seemed to me -- and at least two others -- to be saing "Hey, Look at what the Turkish PM said! Look at what the fucking Israelis did. Can you believe this shit?"

              Because -- no -- I can't believe that shit. No one should. Unfortunately, we live in a world where someone in his position can say something like that, and then innocent people will die.

              So, when I find a diary that presents what he said in a way that suggests it be taken seriously on its terms, rather than for the gobsmacking criminal irresponsibility of it -- I'll HR it.

              Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

              by FischFry on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 02:48:49 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  But you know InAntalya, so you know better. (0+ / 0-)

                InAntalya gave all the disclaimer necessary.

                InAntalya suggested nothing. You read into it what you wanted, then HRd your interpretation of InAntalya's presentation. You might better have HR'd yourself.

                Be as profligate as you want with your HRs, but be aware that acute readers find your rationale specious.

                "I was a big supporter of waterboarding" - Dick Cheney 2/14/10 UID: 8519

                by Bob Love on Wed Aug 21, 2013 at 12:11:38 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  I see your point - but I disagree. (3+ / 0-)

            Nothing in this diary suggests anything other than an attempt to present comments by the Turkish PM that may be relevant to all of our understanding of what's going on in the ME, and which are unlikely to be made available in English.

            And you're also right that not being the only one to HR may count for something, but I also have to say that as I type this the count is 32 - 3 against your position.

      •  Who's endorsing it?! (11+ / 0-)

        I think you've gone WAY overboard with this HR.

        No, you can't fix stupid. You OUTNUMBER stupid. -Wildthumb, 1/10/2013

        by newinfluence on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 01:11:47 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Following the second last link, to aa.com.tr, (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Wee Mama, sturunner, tardis10, Tool

      Erdogan did say in so many words, "Israel is behind the Egyptian military coup, we have the related documents to confirm that."

      We know that Erdogan shoots his mouth off, and even lies to push his own interests - he was a real blowhard when popular protests were going on in Turkey recently. Indeed, he specifically blamed them on agitators who had come in from other countries, without evidence.

      Erdogan does continue in the interview, and spreads the blame a little:

      Turkish premier also denounced the rich people of the Muslim world for backing the dictators who put their own people in target of weapons, saying "We know that there are rich people in the Islamic world, but we also know that there are poor people in need of alms. It is those rich of the Islamic world who support the dictators."

      He further compared some of the countries and people of the Muslim world who failed to call the military coup as a "coup" and neglect and let down their Egyptain brothers and sisters upon the recent violence.

       "The Islamic world is like the brothers of Prophet Yosouf who threw him down the well. As in the case of the brothers of Prophet Yosouf, Allah will shame those in the Islamic world betraying their brothers and sisters in Egypt. Nobody can prevent the Egyptian people to rule Egypt," he added.

      "Every man has a right to utter what he thinks truth" Samuel Johnson

      by Brecht on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 08:51:34 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Uh, Israel DID relinquish the Sinai, (0+ / 0-)

      as PART of the Egyptian-Israeli Treaty of Peace.  Since you have made such a blatantly factual error, I cannot give credibility to any of the other garbage you spout.

      With the Decision Points Theater, the George W. Bush Presidential Library becomes the very first Presidential Library to feature a Fiction Section.

      by Its the Supreme Court Stupid on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 01:32:41 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Erdogan seems like a typical anti-semite. (21+ / 0-)

    Same old bullshit: blame the Jews.  

    Join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news and views written from a black pov—everyone is welcome.

    by TomP on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 06:24:48 AM PDT

    •  A question .... (9+ / 0-)

      Is there not a difference between "blaming the Jews", and apportioning some of the responsibility to the State of Israel?

      I understand that Israel defines itself as a "Jewish State", hence the religion is part of how that country identifies itself, but to everyone else, Israel is a country and not deserving of special privileges any more than self-identified Muslim States.

      Blaming Israel is probably naive, because as a country in the region, they are part of both the problem and the solution, and in any event, I fail to see why America thinks it is our problem to solve.

      I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
      but I fear we will remain Democrats.

      Who is twigg?

      by twigg on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 06:31:00 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Twiddle twaddle. (17+ / 0-)

        Blaiming Israel for the Egyptian civil unrest is just the same old bs.  

        As one who long supported a two-state solution, long before it was cool, I tire of the blame the Jews for ewverything outlook of bigots like Erdogan.  

        The Muslim Brotherhood was founded in the 1920s.  It fought Nasser.   This is a dispute between Egyptian nationalists and Muslim internationalists to some degree.  It is an internal dispute.  Israel is quite secondary.

        Join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news and views written from a black pov—everyone is welcome.

        by TomP on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 06:33:54 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Define "twiddle twaddle" (6+ / 0-)

          I asked a perfectly respectable question.

          I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
          but I fear we will remain Democrats.

          Who is twigg?

          by twigg on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 06:35:05 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  What gives credence to this are neocon (6+ / 0-)

          documents like Richard Perle's "A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm," or this: http://upload.wikimedia.org/...

          The neocon dream of breaking up the Arab states into tiny quarreling ethnic enclaves is largely forgotten here, but in the rest of the world it is still taken seriously.

          Keep in mind that the neocon regime was in control of the US until 2009 and neocons are still influential in the Obama administration. The "Arab Spring" as it has turned out resmebles the neocon wet dream.
          I can see where Erdogan is coming from.

          •  You can see where Erdogan is coming from?! (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Hey338Too, Kane in CA

            Really?

            Nice to see that we have Kossacks who can see where anti-semites like Erdogan are coming from....

            "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

            by Lawrence on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 08:29:22 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Whether or not Erdogan is antisemitic (5+ / 0-)

              is neither here nor there.
               But it is only fair to note that Erdogan has called antisemitism "a crime against humanity:" http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/...
              Criticism of Israel is not, per se, anti-semitic. Suspicion that a right wing Israeli government might be involved in events that are exactly like what right wing Israelis and their American supporters were publicly wishing for is, IMHO, a reasonable suspicion.
                 If you'll recall, Erdogan's Turkey was Israel's best friend in the region until Israel's bloody demolition of Gaza in 2008-2009 and the later Israeli massacre of Turkish citizens aboard a ship bringing humanitarian aid to Gaza.
                Although many Turks regarded the Israeli attack on the aid ship an act of war, Erdogan did try to mend Turkey's relationship with Israel. He has generally been very conciliatory toward Israel, even in the face of provocation.
                I don't think that Erdogan is the best possible leader for Turkey, but to call him anti-semitic is to ignore the Israeli role in destroying the relationship between Israel and Turkey.

              •  Ok, I get it. (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Kane in CA, Hey338Too, livosh1

                You buy into Erdogan's Israel is at the bottom of everything conspiracy theory b.s.  You know, because, as Erdogan said, a jew was involved, so it must be Israel, right?

                People who are willing to go to such great lengths because they despise Israel never cease to amaze me.

                I remember dealing with these types of conspiracy theories non-stop during the liveblogging of the Libyan Revolution.

                BTW, criticism of Israel is not necessarily anti-semitism, but there sure are a lot of critics out there who are anti-semites.

                "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

                by Lawrence on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 10:36:54 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Lawrence - I see that you are unreasonable on this (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Sandino

                  topic. And, of course, any criticism of Israel, even implied, is anti-semitic.
                     The fact is, I don't know if Erdogan really has the documents that he says he has. But, I don't believe a priori, that he is just making stuff up. I'll wait to see if he produces anything.
                   Of course, you obviously have perfect knowledge.
                   Erdogan, remember, was a friend of Israel until Israel's actions made that kind of friendship impossible.

                  •  IF you aren't sure whether Erdogan has documents (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    AoT, Lawrence

                    Then you've got issues.

                    Anyone not predisposed to believe in Jewish conspiracies would have enough sense to realize he's making this shit up.

                    Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

                    by FischFry on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 12:31:28 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  FischFry - How would I know what (0+ / 0-)

                      documents he may or may not have?
                        What about Erdogan's history would lead to the conclusion that he is making something up?
                      Why should I assume that a head of government is lying when he says he has documents?
                       My inclination is to wait and see.
                       (Apparently he is basing his claim on a news conference involving a French and an Israeli official, which is not what I'd consider proof. Of course, that assumes that WaPo's reporting is accurate.)
                      FWIW, I doubt that the Egyptian military would have thrown out Morsi without a go-ahead from the US.

                      •  Not a French official (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Lawrence

                        Comments 2 years ago by a Jewish French philosopher.

                        Here's what Erdogan said:

                        “What is said about Egypt? That democracy is not the ballot box. Who is behind this? Israel is. We have the evidence in our hands,” Erdogan said in a televised address to officials from his Islamic-rooted, ruling party. “That’s exactly what happened.”
                        Know who ACTUALLY said this? Turkey's President, Abdullah Gul. From his wikipedia entry:
                        "On 31 December 2012, he stated with respect to the Arab spring and democratization of the Arab world: "But democracy is not only about elections. The task of creating essential democratic institutions – the rule of law, habits of accountability, gender equality, and freedom of expression and faith – still awaits these countries".[27][28] Gül believes that the Arab world has a long road ahead and that it needs to do more to entrench and embrace democratic government."
                        So, Israel is "behind" what? Behind Gul saying this. or behind trying to bring democratic institutions to Egypt? Israel isn't behind shit. They can't even get Egypt to open their borders to Israeli products.

                        Here's what the Jewish French philosopher said (from the WaPo article you claim to have read)

                        "“If the Muslim Brotherhood arrives in Egypt, I will not say democracy wants it, so let democracy progress. Democracy is not only elections, it is also values.”

                        Pressed further as to whether he would urge Egypt’s military to intervene against the Muslim Brotherhood, Levy says: “I will urge the prevention of them coming to power, but by all sorts of means.”

                        So, if a Jewish-French writer actually said he'd urge the prevention of their coming to power 2 years ago -- well then, that's evidence that Israel is involved in getting rid of them a year after the election?

                        The reason you should know that Erdogan doesn't have those documents is because there's no way his charge is true. Any more than it would be true if I accused you of involvement in the coup.

                        Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

                        by FischFry on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 01:59:04 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                  •  Erdogan never was a friend of Israel. (0+ / 0-)

                    You are just making shit up now.

                    I suggest you google the anti-semitic and anti-Israel remarks made by Erdogan during his time as mayor of Istanbul.

                    "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

                    by Lawrence on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 03:48:17 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

              •  Criticism's fair. Inventing dangerous libel isn't. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Lawrence

                As for calling Erdogan anti-semitic --- no one is basing that on the relationship between the countries. It's based on his saying something so provocative and irresponsible, knowing full well that there is no way it's true.

                When McCarty claimed to have evidence of communists in the State Dept, that was pretty telling about what kind of person he was.

                Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

                by FischFry on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 12:30:16 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

      •  It is very simple case of Antisemitsm (15+ / 0-)

        Erdogan's  "proof"  for "Israeli involvement" is his discussion with the French foreign minister who is...gasp....Jewish.

        A discussion that simply stated the truism that democracy is not just the ballot box.

        Oh, and that the MB probably will not last for more than two years in power.

        Wow. This is the proof.

        He made the classic antisemitic assertion that just because someone is Jewish and holds a certain opinion, he must be a representative of Israel and is privy to its motives.

        In other words - all Jews are connected by some vast conspiracy and they all parrot from some text written in the dark dungeons of the Israeli Mossad and Israel is behind everything.

        Queror Ergo Sum. -- Rene Descartes Shakshuka

        by The Revenge of Shakshuka on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 06:55:09 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  What responsibility? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Hey338Too

        How the hell  do you think Israel had anything to do with this? You think the Egyptian military even gives a shit what Israelis think, much less does their bidding in a matter and manner like this? Maybe they'll take actions along the border to prevent incidents there, but this a purely internal issue.

        As for oppressing the Brotherhood -- you want history? That started 60 years ago, and Israel and Egypt have fought 3 wars since then. It's got fucking zero to do with Israel.

        Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

        by FischFry on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 08:05:04 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I would say you understand little (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Hey338Too

        Israel was founded by Jews who would have described themselves as atheists. While the religion is important to some in Israel, the religion is most important to those who care less about the political state. Indeed, many of those folks are actually troubled by Israel's existence as somehow contrary to prophecy.

        No one was asserting that Israel is deserving of special privileges. The only point being made is that it's ludicrous to suppose that the Egyptian military was overthrown the elected government at Israel's behest. Even if you suppose that Israel is happy to see the Brotherhood overthrown, that doesn't get you very far in arguing that Israel actually played any role.  

        It's moronic to believe -- indicative of a small, paranoid mind that sees evil Jewish hands pulling string everywhere -- and I would assume that anyone with any intelligence making the claim is doing so for the most craven purposes, knowing full well that it cannot be true.

        It's not naive to blame Israel. It's insane, or grotesque and despicable. Someone may think that ti's OK to blame Israel for this and that, because they see Israel as an abomination in it own right -- but the ends do not justify the means. Israel isn't an abstraction. It's millions of people...who might become targets of some deluded clod who believes this claptrap. Anyone pushing the meme will have innocent blood on their hands, whether or not they accept that.

        I hope there's a special place in Hell for Erdogan and anyone else trying to convince people of this vile libel.

        Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

        by FischFry on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 12:26:07 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I would have guessed that it went without saying (0+ / 0-)

        that Israel would be active in bringing down Morsi. I don't think that's anti-Semitism. It's just obvious.

        It's also in Iran's/Hezbollah's interest to be involved in Egypt.
        It's also in Saudi Arabia's interests to be involved.
        Then you have the West and Russia and China. (I'm not sure if Pakistan would stick their noses in it, but...)
        Ultimately, Global Wall Street is to blame for its agenda which doesn't include middle class opportunity and jobs .

        You can't make this stuff up.

        by David54 on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 01:06:23 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  It's a ridiculous charge given Egyptian history (10+ / 0-)

      Egypt's military has opposed the Muslim Brotherhood for decades, going back before the peace agreement with Israel.

      look for my eSci diary series Thursday evening.

      by FishOutofWater on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 06:32:26 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Repent! The End Is Near! that's/all (0+ / 0-)

    Don Benedetto was murdered.-IgnazioSilone(BreadAndWine)

    by renzo capetti on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 06:33:39 AM PDT

  •  Wow, imagine what Israel could do in Turkey! (0+ / 0-)

    You know, a country whose military is actually sympathetic to Israel.

    You know, I sometimes think if I could see, I'd be kicking a lot of ass. -Stevie Wonder at the Glastonbury Festival, 2010

    by Rich in PA on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 06:38:27 AM PDT

    •  Turkey will back down. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Johnny Q, whizdom

      It always does.  Some outrage for the cameras, some pabulum for the public, after an Israeli insult (humiliation of Turkish ambassador, Mavi Marmara, etc.), then everything settles back into the status quo.

      It's not as if a NATO member has any real choice in the matter, of course.

      Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

      by corvo on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 06:43:45 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Erdogan is fighting his own military (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      FishOutofWater

      Turkey has been dominated by the military since Ataturk's time; Erdogan is the first PM to actually be more powerful than them. He has taken major steps against the military and so far gotten away with it.  Whether he can continue to defy the "deep state" for the long run remains to be seen.

      But he turns out to be pretty corrupt after all, witness the recent events in Istanbul.  This has nothing to do with religion or the military either; it's just the corruption of power, greed and patronage.  That is what will bring down Erdogan.  He is too obviously corrupt.

  •  If I might make an editorial suggestion... (26+ / 0-)

    perhaps the title should reflect that this is PM Erdoğan's opinion. Something like "Turkish PM Erdoğan Claims Israel Behind Mursi's Ouster." Otherwise it might appear that the diary is endorsing this provocative (to put it kindly) perspective.

    Relations between Egypt and Turkey are certainly heating up: the recall of ambassadors, the cancellation of joint naval exercises, the Turkish deputy PM's demand for the head of the OIC to resign over that organization's inactivity wrt Egypt, et cetera...

    Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time. (Terry Pratchett)

    by angry marmot on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 06:40:01 AM PDT

  •  Erdogan is a dangerous Islamist demagogue (6+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TomP, vcmvo2, Lawrence, Hey338Too, Visceral, claude

    and increasingly a tyrant. He once said:

    democracy a train from which you get off once you reach the station.
    That has exactly been his MO, although he has taken a slower and more methodical approach to it than did MB and Morsi in Egypt.

    Turkey has enormous potential to be a great and benevolent power in this world, and a secular beacon to the rest of the Muslim world (as it used to be, thank to Ataturk and others, until the AKP and Erdogan rose to power), but Erdogan needs to go for that to pan out. Hope that the pro-secularism protestors in Turkey will help oust him from power in Turkey one of these days.

    •  You're calling for a coup? (0+ / 0-)

      "When dealing with terrorism, civil and human rights are not applicable." Egyptian military spokesman.

      by Paleo on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 06:58:08 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Secular democracy in Turkey and everywhere else (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Lawrence, Hey338Too, claude

        is a desirable end goal.

        Erdogan is a certifiable megalomaniac. He has huge global ambitions. If you look up the path of his political career and his words along the way, it becomes clear that he wants to position himself as a great leader of Muslims worldwide and that he wishes to return Turkey to the glory days of the vast and powerful Ottoman empire and beyond.

        Let's say that Erdogan's power grab reaches beyond the point where democracy in Turkey stands in jeopardy.  Then the pro-democracy/secular/anti-Erdogan protests in Turkey will likely get massive. Erdogan will then likely crush those uprisings with force. At that point, a coup would be necessary as well as justified to remove him from power in order to reclaim democracy. I am not sure if we're close to that point yet, but his activities do need to be closely monitored by both Turkish citizens as well as international observers.

        •  Obviously I prefer secular parties as well (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Meteor Blades

          But if you believe in democracy, you can't support military coups.

          As for Erdogan, he's been far from Morsi while in power.  And whatever his secret desires are, has shown no expansionist tendencies.

          "When dealing with terrorism, civil and human rights are not applicable." Egyptian military spokesman.

          by Paleo on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 02:29:37 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  I'd prefer military rule to Islamist rule (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        claude

        Better some fat, lazy, corrupt generals than fire-breathing Koran-thumpers ... who in Erdogan's and Morsi's cases are also in bed with powerful business interests.

        Ataturk built modern Turkey up from nothing, and he knew that political Islam is a recipe for stagnation and alienation.  IMO whatever it takes to keep the backward-ass "silent majority" hicks silent and in the sticks where they belong - whether in Turkey, Syria, Egypt, or the United States - is justified.

        •  So you are against majority rule even in the (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Paleo

          U.S. if it means giving power to the "hicks in the sticks"?

          That's quite an admission.

          The influence of the [executive] has increased, is increasing, and ought to be diminished.

          by lysias on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 02:27:41 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  yes I am; do you want to be ruled by them? (0+ / 0-)

            I don't pretend that being in the majority magically endows a tribe with higher intelligence or a conscience.

            •  I, on the other hand, do not claim that I am (0+ / 0-)

              magically endowed with a higher intelligence that entitles me to proclaim myself more fit to rule than the majority.

              The influence of the [executive] has increased, is increasing, and ought to be diminished.

              by lysias on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 03:35:17 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I never said I was smarter than them either (0+ / 0-)

                The question really isn't who's smarter or more moral, but whether any of us is morally obliged to live in someone else's world simply because they outnumber us.

                I want progressive policy.  Whether it's decreed from on high by a cloistered bunch of soulless technocrats or bubbles up from some grassroots "collective consciousness" animated by lovingkindness is immaterial to me.

        •  Coup coup ka choo to you (0+ / 0-)

          "When dealing with terrorism, civil and human rights are not applicable." Egyptian military spokesman.

          by Paleo on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 02:30:34 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  You're romanicizing pre-Erdogan Turkey. (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      corvo, sturunner, lysias, Meteor Blades

      Have you ever seen "Midnight Express?'
      The fact is, post Ataturk Turkish history has been dominated by military dictatorships. The country hasn't been exactly benevolent either. Recall its occupation of Cyprus and its war against the Kurdish minority.
        If the secularists can vote Erdogan out of power, fine. But we don't need another military coup and blood in the streets.

    •  For a horrifying view of what coups have meant (0+ / 0-)

      for Turkey, I highly recommend the documentary COUP / Darbe - A Documentary History of the Turkish Military Interventions.

      The influence of the [executive] has increased, is increasing, and ought to be diminished.

      by lysias on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 02:30:02 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Erdogan has a history of Anti-Semitic CT (10+ / 0-)

    This is just another case of his Antisemitism coming out.

    Erdogan said that the interest-rate lobby was behind the protests (a common negative stereotype against Jews is that they are engaged in predatory usury (read the Jew of Malta or the Merchant of Venice).

    Also,

    Besir Atalay had stated that the “Jewish Diaspora” was behind the protests.
    Note that this quote does not refer to Zionists, or even Israelis (who are not necessarily Jews), but rather Jews themselves. It's blatant Antisemitism.
  •  No evidence offered (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    dallasdunlap

    But Israeli senior officials telling one news media outlet after another that they're pleased the military has taken over, and lobbying the U.S. not to cut off military aid to the junta, doesn't help matters.

    "When dealing with terrorism, civil and human rights are not applicable." Egyptian military spokesman.

    by Paleo on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 06:56:00 AM PDT

  •  DOUBTFUL! because...... (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TomP, Lawrence, Hey338Too, sturunner

    1- Morsi affirmed peace treaties with Israel.  A known known is better than an unknown = result of morsi's ouster

    2- the whole c hurch burning thing is doubtful because more likely muslim brotherhood burned churches.....in the past the Mubarak and military protected Egyptian Copts from the muslim brotherhood.  Now if it was said the egyptian military was burning mosques = might be more believable

    Anyway; extremely doubtful assertions and turkey should shhhhhhh on the situation

    interesting bit of trivia though is that during the protests right before Morsi was ousted, a tweet came out of Egypt saying "We wanted an Ataturk and got an Ahmadinejad"

    Ataturk being the man who secularized Turkey

  •  El Baraedi reportedly will be tried (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Don midwest, Johnny Q

    in abstentia for "breaching national trust."  Apparently for resigning to protests attack on protesters.

    al-Sisi seems to have gone off the deep end.

    "When dealing with terrorism, civil and human rights are not applicable." Egyptian military spokesman.

    by Paleo on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 07:05:25 AM PDT

  •  Tip Jar HRd (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    vcmvo2, Hey338Too

    I had to think about this, which normally means that I shouldn't use the HR.  But I can't come to any conclusion other than that this diary is explicitly putting forward not just an anti-Israeli point of view, but an anti-Semitic point of view.  The former, while I disagree with it, is not HRable, but the latter, in my opinion, is.  The deciding factor for me was the decision to include the following in the diary:

    Before the 2011 election at a meeting in France, with the Minister of Justice and a French intellectual who is a Jew
    (my emphasis.

    Ancora Impara--Michelangelo

    by aravir on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 07:25:11 AM PDT

    •  What is put forward by this diary is (15+ / 0-)

      information that provocative statements have been made by the Turkish Prime Minister.

      Are you suggesting that I should have left out the sentence fragment you quote (which is part of the PM's statements) because it is provacative?

      I do not accept that your HR is valid.

      Lamb chop, we can quibble what to call it, but I think we can both agree it's creepy.

      by InAntalya on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 07:50:23 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  It's the way you've done it (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Hey338Too

        Both the way you wrote the headline and that bit, without any context or editorial comment. It implies you're endorsing or even just offering it up as food for thought. If either is true, that's highly suggestive of anti-Semitic bias, because the whole thing is -- or should be --patently absurd. Only a crazed hate-filled person would even contemplate the possibility that there's some truth in this.

        Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

        by FischFry on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 08:11:42 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  InAntalya... (7+ / 0-)

        I don't enjoy saying this, but I think that you've left yourself open to criticism due to 1) the original title and 2) the absence of any analysis. You know that both substantive commentary and precision of language are essential when addressing hot-button issues related to MENA and I/P. "Putting it out there," absent much commentary or analysis, creates real ambiguity.

        Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time. (Terry Pratchett)

        by angry marmot on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 08:44:15 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  InAntalya, I have been away from DK (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        InAntalya

        dealing with a crisis, so I have not responded before.  I respect what you are saying.  You will note that I did not, at any point, accuse you of being Anti-Semitic.  

        I believe that we have a philosophical difference on the intent of the HR rating.  When one is dealing with trolls, it's simply a hammer.  But for Kossacks in good standing, for me, it is a rarely used tool to alert a particular Kossack that, whether intentional or not, what they have posted crosses a line.  It is a suggestion to be more careful in the future.

        I reconsidered removing the HR after you amended the title, which certainly colored the perception of the rest of the diary.  But I had to suddenly leave yesterday, and did not fully consider whether to do so.  Since coming back in this morning, I have opened a message from a fellow Kossack whom I know well and respect, asking me to remove my HR.  While I am still comfortable with my original reasoning, both because of his request, and because I get the sense that you will be more precise in the future, I shall do so.

        As someone whose mother was the first woman to major in international relations at USC, and who spent countless years engaged in the Model UN and the World Affairs Council, I have been engaged in trying to understand international affairs since I was a small child.  I have been following the political situation in Turkey, noted the relationship between Erdogan and Morsi and considered the consequences.  I appreciate the efforts you have been making here at DK.

        Ancora Impara--Michelangelo

        by aravir on Wed Aug 21, 2013 at 06:52:59 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  So HR Erdoğan, not InAntalya. nt (5+ / 0-)

      "I was a big supporter of waterboarding" - Dick Cheney 2/14/10 UID: 8519

      by Bob Love on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 12:56:53 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  You're HR'ing for accurately reporting?! (5+ / 0-)

      I'd consider removing it, if I were you. I think you've made an error in judgment hiding this. Diarist didn't write any material supporting that, and hiding for reporting someone else's anti-Semitism seems WAY off base.

      No, you can't fix stupid. You OUTNUMBER stupid. -Wildthumb, 1/10/2013

      by newinfluence on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 01:08:47 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  You might want to correct your title to (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TomP, FischFry, Lawrence

    Turkish PM: Israel is behind the Military's Removal of Morsi in Egypt.

    Unless you're saying you believe Erdogan...

    At least half the future I've been expecting hasn't gotten here yet. Sigh.... (Yes, there's gender bias in my name; no, I wasn't thinking about it when I signed up. My apologies.)

    by serendipityisabitch on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 07:27:32 AM PDT

  •  Fix headline to switch order: Turkish PM claims... (0+ / 0-)

    This reads as if you're saying it's true, with only a qualifier as to the source.

    I hope that's not what you intend,because this is anti-Semitic clap-trap on the level of the old European blood libels about Jews killing Christian babies to use their blood for matzah (which is just flour, water and salt).

    If your intent is other than to show what a completely despicable sunuvabich Erdogan is, then you are aiding and abetting this despicable behavior which may actually lead to many violent deaths.

    Publishing this vile falsehood is equally as vile if you're trying to imply there is even a germ of truth there.

    Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

    by FischFry on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 08:00:12 AM PDT

    •  I take it from your comment that (4+ / 0-)

      even though I believed that this is something that people would want to be aware of and that it is also something which would probably not be covered in the US media, I shouldn't have taken the time to translate what the PM said and post it here.

       

      Lamb chop, we can quibble what to call it, but I think we can both agree it's creepy.

      by InAntalya on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 08:12:57 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  It's all about the context and presentation (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        TomP, Hey338Too

        On first read, it seemed you were offering something noteworthy because someone important is making these allegations....not to mention the thing about Levy, which really has little to do with the nature of what Erdogan was claiming. Levy was making an observation about what Egyptian military might do, but he didn't link it to Israel, did he?

        It's like when someone reports on Republicans claiming the Obamacare has death panels...without offering any insight into how ridiculous and untrue that might be. Or when they report that someone in the GOP suggests Obama wasn't born in US and is lying. Are they saying there's a story there because someone important is saying something ridiculous and folks might believe him, or are they reporting it and leaving the impression that this might be a serious question? The media took a lot of criticism for doing that. Why should you be immune or different?

        Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

        by FischFry on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 08:23:03 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  thanks for the reporting and translation (5+ / 0-)

        I don't expect or need you to analyze his comments as well, as people here are fully capable of doing so and you needn't do so as a Turkish citizen.
        Recced for the effort and the comments...

        This machine kills Fascists.

        by KenBee on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 09:42:15 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Again -- it depends on why.... (0+ / 0-)

        Why did you think it's something we should be aware of?

        Because we should be gobsmacked that someone holding such an important position, holding the public trust of tens of millions, would say something so despicable and criminally irresponsible and politically craven?

        Or, because we should consider what he's saying as possibly legitimate because someone so important said it? That he spoke some truth so explosive that the US media (we both know what "US media" is often a code for, especially when said by someone in the Muslim world) won't cover it?

        If it's the latter, then I stand by the HR. That's being complicit in the kind of anti-Semitic blood libel that has led to the deaths of countless numbers of Jews over the many centuries.

        Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

        by FischFry on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 02:56:19 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Erdogan is an autocratic-style ruler (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TomP, Hey338Too, Visceral, newinfluence

    himself and it is becoming increasingly clear that he loves to try and whip up sympathy by continually blaming "Tha Jooooz", ie. it has become clear that he has strong anti-semitic tendencies.

    Why the hell would any sane person care what he has to say?

    I'm not surprised that he is unhappy right now, though, seeing that his party is aligned with the Muslim Brotherhood.

    "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

    by Lawrence on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 08:13:14 AM PDT

  •  The big question is what are they going to do (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Visceral, dallasdunlap, Johnny Q

    now, not only Israel but the U.S. and NATO powers.  Are they going to facilitate the tearing apart and destruction of Egypt like with Syria and Libya?   It appears that way at this time.  That appears to be the plan.

    "America is the Terror State. The Global War OF Terror is a diabolical instrument of Worldwide conquest."

    by BigAlinWashSt on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 09:59:33 AM PDT

  •  Erdogan and Morsi are both Islamists (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    BigAlinWashSt

    They're also both "pro-business" types if you know what I mean.  Of course Erdogan will have a problem with Morsi not being in charge.  Take anything he says about Egypt with a ton of salt.

    The Egyptian military is running out of time to crush the Muslim Brotherhood and I mean crush it.  Law and order isn't just an uphill battle; it's a "red queen's race".  Look at Iraq: it won't matter who's in charge in Egypt if long-term civil unrest and violence has basically destroyed civil society.  Syria's well on it's way there too.

  •  everybody has an axiom to grind in the (0+ / 0-)

    Middle East.

    Don Benedetto was murdered.-IgnazioSilone(BreadAndWine)

    by renzo capetti on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 11:59:33 AM PDT

  •  Why is it HR-able to post news? (8+ / 0-)

    Surely you don't have to agree with Erdogan's comments to find them newsworthy?

    The influence of the [executive] has increased, is increasing, and ought to be diminished.

    by lysias on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 12:52:27 PM PDT

  •  Look what the NYT reported. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Brecht, Claudius Bombarnac, Johnny Q

    How American Hopes for a Deal in Egypt Were Undercut:

    The Israelis, whose military had close ties to General Sisi from his former post as head of military intelligence, were supporting the [military] takeover as well. Western diplomats say that General Sisi and his circle appeared to be in heavy communication with Israeli colleagues, and the diplomats believed the Israelis were also undercutting the Western message by reassuring the Egyptians not to worry about American threats to cut off aid.

    Israeli officials deny having reassured Egypt about the aid, but acknowledge having lobbied Washington to protect it.

    The article does assign blame to others, like the United Arab Emirates and the Saudis, but it certainly mentions the Israelis.

    The influence of the [executive] has increased, is increasing, and ought to be diminished.

    by lysias on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 01:00:54 PM PDT

  •  Tipped to offset HR's (7+ / 0-)

    Last I knew, it wasn't hideable to accurately report someone else's statement.

    No, you can't fix stupid. You OUTNUMBER stupid. -Wildthumb, 1/10/2013

    by newinfluence on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 01:10:42 PM PDT

  •  What a freakin' loon he is. n/t (0+ / 0-)

    "Stay close to the candles....the staircase can be treacherous" (-8.38,-8.51)

    by JNEREBEL on Thu Aug 22, 2013 at 04:20:06 PM PDT

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