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it was a rider on the budget bill and I'm glad, here's why.

Down in Texas they have this deal where you can go shoot animals that are native to Africa and Asia without leaving the US. There are high fences. Not my cup of tea but then neither is catch and release fishing. I try not to be judgemental about the way others hunt and fish especially if it is contributing to conservation.

"High Fence" often raises eyebrows in hunting circles. It can mean anything from ten acres to ten thousand, and there is a vast difference. It's not something I have a desire to do, but then there are many types of hunting I'd choose not to do, such as baiting, sitting in a tree stand, or being guided. What I like to do is irrelevant to other people's hunt. I simply wish them well and if they enjoy themselves that's great.

Three of the antelope that they "hunt", the dama gazelle, addax, and scimitar-horned oryx are way endangered. The oryx is extinct in the wild. Texas has larger populations of some animals than exist in the lands they come from.

We don't need to critique the motivations of people who pay huge amounts of money to shoot these animals to appreciate that those dollars pay for the increasing populations, something that is impossible to do right now in Africa and Asia.

Dama Gazelle image from animal info

Why did the POTUS need to sign off on a rider to the budget bill over these critters? It was correcting a mistake made in 2012. Back then for whatever reason these animals came under the regulation of the USFWS (US Fish and Wildlife Service) because they are endangered. In order for Texas ranchers to hunt them they had to jump through all kinds of hoops including a month prior notice. Animal rights groups would challenge hunts leading to burdensome and costly impediments to hunting. Ranchers lost interest in offering the species to hunt, and populations dropped.


addax Wiki

If you look closely at the photos I've attached you've probably noticed that none of these species look anything like puppies or kittens. And that's the rub. Unless animals look like the animals our urban society is most familiar with and attached to, there is no interest in keeping them alive. So it's left to high fence hunters, and people like the Safari club to push legislation like this.


Scimitar oryx Wiki

What's my take away thought from all this? I'd say save em. There aren't that many mammals, certainly not large ones. If saving them means them being raised by high fence operations in Texas well so be it. We in the US spend millions on a quirk in our Endangered Species Act that compels us to make efforts to save cute species living on the very edges of large and robust populations. Why not save a species that costs us the stroke of a pen and nothing more?

And President Obama? Considering everything else he has on his plate, species wise, he gets an A so far. I've no idea if he even weighs in on these decisions or if he just leaves it to Jewel and others who are supposed to know. Whoever is making the decisions they are being made based on science, not politics. Just as they should be. If I had to hazard a guess I'd say probably 100% of the Dallas Safari Club are not Obama voters, maybe 99%. Doesn't matter.

http://gametrails.org/...
http://hog-blog.com/...
http://www.endangeredspecieslawandpolicy.com/...
http://en.wikipedia.org/...

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (22+ / 0-)

    “Conservation… is a positive exercise of skill and insight, not merely a negative exercise of abstinence and caution…” Aldo Leopold

    by ban nock on Sat Jan 25, 2014 at 05:59:30 AM PST

  •  To make it realistic, they should have lions, (4+ / 0-)

    leopards and cheetah, hyena in there too, so that the hunters have to watch their back...
    But, yes, I don't like it, but I support saving the species.

    You can't make this stuff up.

    by David54 on Sat Jan 25, 2014 at 06:12:47 AM PST

    •  That's illegal in Texas (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ban nock, VClib, ER Doc

      Dangerous animals like those are illegal to hunt in Texas.  

      "I'm a progressive man and I like progressive people" Peter Tosh

      by Texas Lefty on Sat Jan 25, 2014 at 06:34:22 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  link below (6+ / 0-)
        "Canned Hunts" (Dangerous Wild Animals)

        No person may kill or attempt to injure a dangerous wild animal (African or Asiatic lion, tiger, leopard, cheetah, hyena, bear, elephant, wolf, or rhinoceros, or any subspecies or hybrid of these animals) that is held in captivity in this state or that is released from captivity in this state for the purpose of being killed, nor may any person conduct, promote, advertise, or assist in the hunting of a dangerous wild animal.

        Link

        "I'm a progressive man and I like progressive people" Peter Tosh

        by Texas Lefty on Sat Jan 25, 2014 at 06:40:39 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Not to hunt. To make it more exciting. (6+ / 0-)

        More like a real African safari. After all, these are brave, Great White Hunters, right?

        You can't make this stuff up.

        by David54 on Sat Jan 25, 2014 at 06:43:49 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  No, you misunderstand hunting. (6+ / 0-)

          This isn't the first time I've run across that misunderstanding from non hunters. People don't hunt to go mano a mano with critters. They hunt to hunt. Even high fence hunting.

          I know this is a tough one for the general "non" public to get but it's significant. If a contest with an animal was the attraction people would be entering tiger cages with spears and swords. This speaks to motivations which is a difficult subject to explain.

          Another common misconception.. hunters like killing animals. How many hunters work on the kill floor of a slaughterhouse? Not many I'd guess.

          “Conservation… is a positive exercise of skill and insight, not merely a negative exercise of abstinence and caution…” Aldo Leopold

          by ban nock on Sat Jan 25, 2014 at 06:54:21 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Well, pigsticking comes fairly close (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            ban nock, ER Doc, KenBee
            If a contest with an animal was the attraction people would be entering tiger cages with spears and swords.
            Wild hogs have become destructive vermin in a lot of places in the South, and there are very few, if any, rules about how they may be hunted. So some folks like to go after them with spears.  I've heard there are a few lunatics who don't think spears are exciting enough, and prefer knives, though I can't vouch for that.

            Definitely a minority taste, and not the usual motivation for most hunting, but it's out there.

            •  also popular in Hawaii, the reason isn't for the (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              ER Doc, rodentrancher, KenBee

              thrill necessarily but because it's the safest way not to shoot your dogs.

              Dogs can make it much easier to chase pigs but then when they pile on it's hard to get in there to shoot the pig without hurting dogs. I think there's a method where they grab an ear and then stick with the knife judging anatomy relative to the ear.

              “Conservation… is a positive exercise of skill and insight, not merely a negative exercise of abstinence and caution…” Aldo Leopold

              by ban nock on Sat Jan 25, 2014 at 01:03:26 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Wow. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                chimene
                I think there's a method where they grab an ear and then stick with the knife judging anatomy relative to the ear.
                Yikes. Grabbing a wild hog by the ear while looking for a place to stick the knife. Sounds like a good way to acquire a new nickname..."Lefty" perhaps, or maybe "Stumpy"...no thank you!
          •  mano a mano with critters (0+ / 0-)

            my understanding is carnivores, only eat vegetarians.
            Go figure

            Who is mighty ? One who turns an enemy into a friend !

            by OMwordTHRUdaFOG on Sat Jan 25, 2014 at 09:36:52 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Depends. Omnivores like us or bears or wolves or (0+ / 0-)

              coyotes will eat other meat eaters. Some will only do so if hungry. Meat eaters often have parasites or diseases that can spread between species. Be sure to cook the next coyote you eat. :-)

              “Conservation… is a positive exercise of skill and insight, not merely a negative exercise of abstinence and caution…” Aldo Leopold

              by ban nock on Sun Jan 26, 2014 at 06:12:56 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  Hunters do take risks. The preponderance of griz (5+ / 0-)

          maulings in Montana happen to elk hunters, something every elk hunter is aware of. Especially bow hunters and people sleeping in pup tents. Carrying a heavy load of meat out at night would certainly sharpen one's senses and it happens all the time.

          Bravery is not the objective hunters are seeking. All people are brave or not as situations dictate and circumstances demand.

          “Conservation… is a positive exercise of skill and insight, not merely a negative exercise of abstinence and caution…” Aldo Leopold

          by ban nock on Sat Jan 25, 2014 at 07:00:04 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I'm not trying to disparage real hunters. (4+ / 0-)

            However, every Allsups and Tractor Supply (for starters) in N. Texas has a large stack of deer corn out front. I know they're aren't that many real  hunters out there.
            At any rate, the big predators are endangered and deserve to be preserved, as well.

            You can't make this stuff up.

            by David54 on Sat Jan 25, 2014 at 07:06:51 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  "deer" corn can and does kill elk, and deer if (4+ / 0-)

              their digestive system isn't accustomed to it.

              Probably if you aren't a hunter yourself it's pretty hard for you to judge the real from the unreal, and some large predators are endangered, others are overabundant. I recommend the IUCN for reference, they are the internationaly recognised body assigning relative endangerment to species.

              “Conservation… is a positive exercise of skill and insight, not merely a negative exercise of abstinence and caution…” Aldo Leopold

              by ban nock on Sat Jan 25, 2014 at 08:07:38 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I just know my neighbors and relatives and I know (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                ban nock

                that if there were as many deer being harvested as there are deer stands being sold, deer corn, etc. there'd be a lot of venison beiing served.
                I have a theory that the burgeoning population of feral pigs are fattening up on the corn.

                You can't make this stuff up.

                by David54 on Sat Jan 25, 2014 at 11:35:07 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

            •  Baiting (6+ / 0-)

              can contribute to the spread of disease among deer, so it's really not a good practice. There is also little difference in the success rates of those who bait and hunters who just go sit in their blind and wait. In Michigan, they have allowed baiting, then not allowed baiting, and now allow limited baiting, and the deer harvest is largely unaffected. A big reason is that whitetail deer are nocturnal to a great extent, and they feed at night, when hunters are forbidden to hunt them.

              "A lie is not the other side of a story; it's just a lie."

              by happy camper on Sat Jan 25, 2014 at 08:21:48 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

    •  There are an embarrassing number of carnivores (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      rodentrancher, ER Doc, KenBee

      nobody wants. Some rescue farm or another is always making the news as the owners abandon it and the animals starve. One guy in Ohio just set them free then suicided. Not sure if high fence carnivore hunting is legal.

      People get tiger kittens and then they grow up. Grizzly bears too. Wolves and wolf hybrid populations in rescue orgs that are mind boggling.

      People at horse auctions now lock their trailers, not for fear of someone stealing their horses but of fear of someone adding some more to the ones they can't get rid of.

      “Conservation… is a positive exercise of skill and insight, not merely a negative exercise of abstinence and caution…” Aldo Leopold

      by ban nock on Sat Jan 25, 2014 at 06:36:46 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I have a friend who has a ranch in central Texas (8+ / 0-)

    He gets all kinds of exotic game on his property because they've managed to escape from their original properties.  

    "I'm a progressive man and I like progressive people" Peter Tosh

    by Texas Lefty on Sat Jan 25, 2014 at 06:37:33 AM PST

    •  I've heard of but never taken an interest in the (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ER Doc

      exotics down in Texas. I guess at least one species lives outside of the fences over a wide territory. I forget their names as soon as I hear them.

      I realize that elk and moose are also very recent arrivals in N America but I just have no interest in a species from another country brought here specifically to hunt. Maybe if they grew where I lived I'd have a different opinion.

      “Conservation… is a positive exercise of skill and insight, not merely a negative exercise of abstinence and caution…” Aldo Leopold

      by ban nock on Sat Jan 25, 2014 at 09:07:01 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  You're probably thinking about the axis deer (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        BlackSheep1, ban nock, ER Doc, KenBee
        Distribution in Texas. Native to India, where it is known as the "chital," the axis deer was introduced into Texas about 1932. In 1988, free-ranging herds were established in 27 counties of central and southern Texas. At this time, it also occurs as a confined animal on ranches in 67 other counties. Axis deer are the most abundant exotic ungulate in Texas.
        link

        "I'm a progressive man and I like progressive people" Peter Tosh

        by Texas Lefty on Sat Jan 25, 2014 at 09:36:44 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  ban nock: then like me I think you'd be for (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ban nock, ER Doc, grover

        liberalizing the rules for feral hog hunting (tho to be fair Texas has some of the least-restrictive such regs now).

        LBJ, Van Cliburn, Ike, Wendy Davis, Lady Bird, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

        by BlackSheep1 on Sat Jan 25, 2014 at 12:06:48 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Hogs are a huge problem everywhere they occur (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          BlackSheep1, ER Doc, grover

          from what I've heard.

          “Conservation… is a positive exercise of skill and insight, not merely a negative exercise of abstinence and caution…” Aldo Leopold

          by ban nock on Sat Jan 25, 2014 at 12:59:17 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  invasive ferals, yep. (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            ER Doc, grover, ban nock

            That's TPWD's take on it. Here's TAMU's: http://feralhogs.tamu.edu/

            and much as I'm not an Aggie fan (Rick Perry is one of their famous alums, and Robert Gates went from being head of their school to SecDef) they're right about this.

            Ferals destroy habitat, decimate wildlife, and spread disease.

            LBJ, Van Cliburn, Ike, Wendy Davis, Lady Bird, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

            by BlackSheep1 on Sat Jan 25, 2014 at 01:34:55 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  From everything I understand, (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            ban nock

            feral pigs are a huge problem pretty much everywhere they exist.

            Not only that, but from the sounds of it, it seems that folks who hunt them and folks who live in areas overrun by feral pigs really should have pretty substantial firepower.

            Generally, I'm not a dedicated RKBA person. But those animals are huge, incredibly dangerous, cause massive amounts of damage (to native flora, fauna, humans, crops, etc) and are  dang near impossible to take down.

            Forget about semi-automatic guns; if someone needs an RPG to defend themselves from a feral pig, ATF should probably consider limited licenses.

            I've read they have Russian Wild Boar DNA. That's pretty crazy. They don't belong here,are still spreading, and need to be eradicated.

            © grover


            So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

            by grover on Sat Jan 25, 2014 at 03:21:04 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

  •  Tree stand hunting (5+ / 0-)
    It's not something I have a desire to do, but then there are many types of hunting I'd choose not to do, such as baiting, sitting in a tree stand, or being guided.
    Stand hunting probably seems really weird to a Westerner, but in the overcrowded woods during rifle seasons in the Eastern US, it's a safety feature. There are places where you may only use a rifle from a tree stand, at a minimum height.

    Forcing people to shoot from 10 or 15 feet up pretty much insures that the bullet will impact the ground not too far from the target. Now, a knowledgeable and responsible hunter could make sure of this even while hunting from ground level, but the Fish and Game people have learned that you can't count on all hunters to do that. Thus some places in the East, if you don't want to hunt from a stand, you may be limited to bow season, or a shotgun with buckshot.

    Anyway, from the self-preservation standpoint, you couldn't pay me enough to still hunt on most public lands in the East during modern firearms season. Too many deer wearing blaze orange here, apparently - only way I can explain some of the stories I hear. I'll chance still hunting during muzzleloader season, the bozo factor seems much lower then.

    Of course, while there stand hunting results in fewer hunters getting shot, now some get hurt falling out of the trees. But at least the careless and drunks can only hurt themselves that way.

    •  Makes good sense from a safety standpoint. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      rodentrancher, BlackSheep1, ER Doc

      We often discuss it when tuckered out from walking up and down hills all day long doing nothing but scare game. Probably much better off just sitting in a tree and a lot less effort. There's always that desire to go look over there.

      “Conservation… is a positive exercise of skill and insight, not merely a negative exercise of abstinence and caution…” Aldo Leopold

      by ban nock on Sat Jan 25, 2014 at 07:08:35 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Most of the (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ban nock, ER Doc

      really crowded areas are shotgun only, since buckshot and slugs have a shorter range. If you hunt wooded areas the chance of a random projectile making it very far are slim.

      "A lie is not the other side of a story; it's just a lie."

      by happy camper on Sat Jan 25, 2014 at 08:26:03 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Thrill Kill Ranches are the end of hunting. It (6+ / 0-)

    doesn't make me sad. It's something rich people seem to enjoy. It's not the first time rich people's fun seems disgusting to me.

    Now they have the 2nd (safety net for sloppy) Amendment, and can't be infringed to actually treat their gun like a gun and not a video game controller.

    by 88kathy on Sat Jan 25, 2014 at 07:51:00 AM PST

    •  I take it you are of the "extinction is good" (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Texas Lefty, BlackSheep1, ER Doc

      group then?

      Your choice.

      “Conservation… is a positive exercise of skill and insight, not merely a negative exercise of abstinence and caution…” Aldo Leopold

      by ban nock on Sat Jan 25, 2014 at 08:59:46 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  False dichotomy. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        88kathy

        There is no natural physical law that makes these thrill kill ranches the only option for conservation, merely a convenient one at present.

      •  naw, she's in the "do it my way or not at all" (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ban nock, ER Doc, grover

        faction. Especially concerning privately-owned firearms.

        If it kills off some megafauna, she's okay with that.

        LBJ, Van Cliburn, Ike, Wendy Davis, Lady Bird, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

        by BlackSheep1 on Sat Jan 25, 2014 at 12:08:24 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Huh what? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          88kathy

          The only person suggesting that the 'my way or not at all' was the one suggesting the only choice was between thrill kill farms or extinction.

          Check up a few posts and you will see who that person was.

          •  Lots of better options in my opinion, just none of (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Ozy

            them being taken.

            I'd love it if Defenders of Wildlife had a huge program where the animals come from to pay rangers and villagers to protect the species where they exist. Many other orgs that could contribute just a fraction of their litigation budget.

            “Conservation… is a positive exercise of skill and insight, not merely a negative exercise of abstinence and caution…” Aldo Leopold

            by ban nock on Sun Jan 26, 2014 at 06:15:29 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

  •  So then, is Obama going to take everyone's gun (6+ / 0-)

    or not - I'm confused.

    I keep hearing that Obama is Hitler and that Hitler took the guns. But, here is Obama supporting gun owners.

    If he supports universal background checks AND he supports expanding hunter's rights - is only he half a Hitler?

    Doesn't the fact that Obama is supporting gun owners shatter the idea that he is coming for their guns?

    Can we now put it to rest that Dems and gun safety advocates want to take everyone's guns, please.

    "Looking back over a lifetime, you see that love was the answer to everything." — Ray Bradbury

    by We Shall Overcome on Sat Jan 25, 2014 at 08:04:37 AM PST

  •  Off topic. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ban nock, Texas Lefty

    This is Hunting and Fishing, not RKBA or RASA. Thank you!

    "A lie is not the other side of a story; it's just a lie."

    by happy camper on Sat Jan 25, 2014 at 08:28:46 AM PST

  •  Actually (2+ / 0-)

    lots of people would probably like them alive in their natural habitats,  they would like to see sufficient habitat preserved so that the flora and fauna were in functioning ecosystems, and that applies to animals that were native in the US or Africa.

    The fact that they are kept alive to be systematically killed by rich people who seem to only feel alive when they are killing something or someone really doesn't qualify as respecting life and interest in preserving endangered species in my book.   You have to care about something else, to see value in it for its own self, not what it does for you before you can respect it.

    •  the choice is extinction or not. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Texas Lefty, BlackSheep1, ER Doc

      There is some reestablishment of species from Texas to the places they came from. One hopes that some day they will be viable in their native range.

      Do you choose extinction or not?

      “Conservation… is a positive exercise of skill and insight, not merely a negative exercise of abstinence and caution…” Aldo Leopold

      by ban nock on Sat Jan 25, 2014 at 09:02:58 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  means matter (3+ / 0-)

        not just ends.

        I have never had a problem with hunters who hunt for food.  No different than a trip to the grocery store.

        But this is not about saving animals from extinction, it isn't for the animals.   It is a choice to make money, to divert money from the choices that would be about the animals,  obtaining habitat, preserving habitat, actual reintroduction efforts.

        Animals fed hay, used to humans approaching and then hunted.  It is a weak excuse that 'we're saving them'.  The village had to be destroyed so it could be saved.

        •  what you approve of is irrelevant, and it is about (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          BlackSheep1, ER Doc

          saving from extinction. Without these Texas ranches these species might well go extinct. We've no idea what they are fed or how large a range they are given. Those issues might concern you or I but President Obama made a decision about saving species, not hunting esthetics.

          The only diversion of money is from hunting somewhere else or whatever these (mostly but not all) guys would have spent money on otherwise.

          In a way this is a microcosm of the issues facing hunting all over the US. You are making value judgements on the actions of others, rather than allow professionals to make those judgements. For a wildlife biologist it's all about species, not individuals. You argue for destroying the village.

          “Conservation… is a positive exercise of skill and insight, not merely a negative exercise of abstinence and caution…” Aldo Leopold

          by ban nock on Sat Jan 25, 2014 at 09:18:48 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  will this save them from extinction? (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            ban nock

            how many generations can they stay in captivity before they become unable to survive in the wild?

            Politics means controlling the balance of economic and institutional power. Everything else is naming post offices.

            by happymisanthropy on Sat Jan 25, 2014 at 10:40:58 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  large game farms are large enough to be wild (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              BlackSheep1, ER Doc

              If they are grazing on natural food sources I'd think they could go on as is for quite a while. We will sort out what we are going to do with this world in the next hundred years or not.

              “Conservation… is a positive exercise of skill and insight, not merely a negative exercise of abstinence and caution…” Aldo Leopold

              by ban nock on Sat Jan 25, 2014 at 11:32:17 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  well, then what you approve (0+ / 0-)

            of is also irrelevant, so why thrust your approval on the community with this diary?  

            This forum is supposed to be about discussion, so fact, opinions, they all matter.  Maybe you should remember I was polite, I disagreed but I didn't say your opinions were irrelevant.

    •  exactly (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      happymisanthropy, ban nock

      seems we have a syllogism abound in this diary

      the green basilis is jesus, cats are liquid and penguins ...

      primer in funny syllogisms

      if this was about the bill rider I wouldn't make this comment but we're being asked to falsely choose  on ... extinction?

    •  So, when we actually re establish their (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ban nock, ER Doc

      Natural habitat, then we can put them back there.

      Environmentalists have worked hard to establish Yellowstone to Yukon wildlife corridor, especially for wide-ranging animals who need a lot if space to roam, particularly the grizzly bear.

      It's taken a lot of  work with two countries, several states and provinces, many cities and counties, lots of (mostly unhappy) ranchers.

      Securing and restoring habitat is hard work.

      Hunting ranches, on one hand, sound ghastly to me. I don't have a problem with hunters, but an area where animals can't escape? Ugh. In the other, if these species are going or actually ARE extinct everywhere in the wild, but these ranchers are keeping these species alive and presumably healthy, well heck...

      Poachers are a huge problem in Africa (and Asia) right now. Yeah, we have poachers, but we have Fish and Wildlife, USFS, NPS, BLM, State and local agencies, Army Corps, etc.

      If these species can't be safely put where they belong, if these ranchers are responsibly maintaining breeding programs, I don't know. I'm a hardcore environmentalist and animal welfare person.

      I don't have all the facts, but I think I trust Jewell in this one.

      Here's the thing about the "people" that you mention in the initial part of your comment. "People" tend to have lots of preferences. But these same people tend not to do much to make the things they want better. I've walked behind people in the park who complain about all the trash that is littered about. Did they ever pick up a single piece of paper?  People feel things very strongly. But when it comes to action, donating, volunteering, they don't seem to care as much.

      © grover


      So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

      by grover on Sat Jan 25, 2014 at 09:43:23 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I donate (0+ / 0-)

        to wildlife preservation, not preserve to hunt organizations.  I don't leave out litter and will pick up trash.

        Basically, what motivation to actual rehab and do the work of returning these creatures to their natural habitat does a ranch that makes money only from rich people shotting these animals have.  Surely if we have seen anything over the last 40 years is that profits to a corporation are everything. Nothing even comes a close second.The same rich people who pay to kill these animals could establish a santuary and fund it annually and actually spend some money to restore them to their habitat.  

  •  A little off topic, (0+ / 0-)

    Do the ranch owners have breeding programs then?

    I presume that they're setting aside some breeding stock and are not just letting their clients put holes in ALL these threatened/endangered species? Safe assumption?

    I'm not excusing anything, btw. Only having a few breeding animals --which I assume is the case --is a great way to end up with bottlenecked genes and ensure a lot of problems, unless Bob in Arizona has a couple animals and Larry in NM has a few and you're outcrossing now and then. (I assume that's not the case.)

    I'm just wondering...

    © grover


    So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

    by grover on Sat Jan 25, 2014 at 09:10:48 AM PST

    •  They have extensive and self regulated breeding (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      grover, ER Doc, DavidMS

      I believe the reintroduced individuals to Africa were sold, not donated. It's in their financial interest to have good genetic stock.

      Again I kind of find the whole farm raised wildlife thing distasteful. The only part I do like is saving species. I also find it interesting that this thing that most people feel aversion to is saving species.

      “Conservation… is a positive exercise of skill and insight, not merely a negative exercise of abstinence and caution…” Aldo Leopold

      by ban nock on Sat Jan 25, 2014 at 09:24:02 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Well, the situation isn't ideal by any means. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ER Doc

        But this earth is losing species at an unforgivable rate right now.

        Just to illustrate the degree of biodiversity loss we're facing, let’s take you through one scientific analysis...
        The rapid loss of species we are seeing today is estimated by experts to be between 1,000 and 10,000 times higher than the natural extinction rate.
        These experts calculate that between 0.01 and 0.1% of all species will become extinct each year.
        If the low estimate of the number of species out there is true - i.e. that there are around 2 million different species on our planet
        * -  then that means between 200 and 2,000 extinctions occur every year.
        But if the upper estimate of species numbers is true - that there are 100 million different species co-existing with us on our planet - then between 10,000 and 100,000 species are becoming extinct each year.
        Experts actually call this natural extinction rate the background extinction rate. This simply means the rate of species extinctions that would occur if we humans were not around.

        .

        .

        *There can be little debate that there is, in fact, a very serious biodiversity crisis.

        http://wwf.panda.org/...

        And it's going to get worse due to climate change. Whatever we can do to intercede until we get this figure it out and restore habitat, we need to do.

        I'm an animal welfare (not animal rights) person. Hunting ranches go against everything I believe in. But if these folks are willing to care for their animals and ensure that those who die do so quickly and humanely, well, sometimes we work with people that that we disagree passionately with.

        I refuse to make this about "rich people." It's about the animals and the future of our planet.

        Thanks for the diary.

        © grover


        So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

        by grover on Sat Jan 25, 2014 at 09:56:13 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  ban nock: in Texas we have very little (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ban nock, ER Doc, grover

        public land (notwithstanding the Big Bend and Palo Duro parks). Most wildlife is farm-raised ... some intentionally and much incidentally. Deer don't recognize deed boundaries any better than germs recognize national borders. Same for feral hogs, same for buffalo, same for antelope, coyote, wildcat, same for jackrabbit, pigeon, dove, black-foot ferret, prairie dog, etc.

        I wish we could get some farms to raise, on purpose, some of the scarcer species that are native to Texas...

        LBJ, Van Cliburn, Ike, Wendy Davis, Lady Bird, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

        by BlackSheep1 on Sat Jan 25, 2014 at 12:13:05 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  just reading a book' Prairie Chicken murder' (0+ / 0-)

          or whatever the title is, by a Jack Crider maybe, about a millenielist cult going after  game preserve ranch, because...sumpinsumpin Agenda 21...set in Texas.

          This machine kills Fascists.

          by KenBee on Sat Jan 25, 2014 at 08:57:43 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  This isn't like "rabbits in Australia," is it? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ban nock

    By which I mean the problems that arise when an exotic species is accidentally or imprudently introduced into an environment where it has no natural predators. Are there simply too few of these game animals or are their reproduction rates too low for this to be an issue?

    Also, isn't inbreeding going to become a problem on these ranches?

    •  No, that would be more like feral hogs here (5+ / 0-)

      Most of the exotics live on very large and high fenced ranches.  The ranch owners do not want their animals to escape because that's their money.  Some species do escape, but not in the numbers required to become an invasive species.  They generally have the same predator and hunting problems that the native white tail and mule deer have, so it keeps them in check.  

      Deer usually breed once a year, compared to wild hogs or rabbits which breed several times a year.  

      "I'm a progressive man and I like progressive people" Peter Tosh

      by Texas Lefty on Sat Jan 25, 2014 at 09:49:24 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I'd hope it's not like that, but that's one of my (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      lonemorriscodem, ER Doc

      objections to importing and wildlife. Exotics could bring disease or parasites that native species have no resistance to.

      Reproduction of large ungulates is generally not too fast. One per year per female.

      “Conservation… is a positive exercise of skill and insight, not merely a negative exercise of abstinence and caution…” Aldo Leopold

      by ban nock on Sat Jan 25, 2014 at 09:51:12 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  as Austin increasingly expands n2 the hill country (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ban nock

    Deer are considered a huge 'problem' by many urban folks wanting a traditional landscape. They tried capturing deer & transporting them to game ranches in Mexico, but too many died from the trauma.
    They tried hiring over paid marksman...

    An expanded bow hunting season w/ meat donated to the needy, makes too much sense to ever get passed.
    IMHO

    Who is mighty ? One who turns an enemy into a friend !

    by OMwordTHRUdaFOG on Sat Jan 25, 2014 at 09:33:54 PM PST

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