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Horrible news today:

In a total victory for the Broad Foundation and "Students Matter", a corporate astroturf group, all five sections of California's tenure law challenged in Vergara v. California were struck down today.

The judge immediately ordered a stay of any change in the law until all appeals were settled. All teacher unions in the state, as well as the state itself have filed appeals.

It's unclear yet whether California's legislature, fearing additional litigation and the weight of more bad press, might rework the laws in question on its own. Just Monday, the state Senate approved a bill that would make it somewhat quicker to fire a teacher for "egregious misconduct," but it's less clear how it would affect dismissal for poor performance.
Now I know that many here are like "so what? If that means bad teachers get fired quicker, then so be it."

WRONG.

Tenure is not about "having a permanent job". Tenure is about DUE PROCESS. It's about Sixth Amendment rights.

What people don't realize is that the dynamic between teachers and administration is very often a political one, with personalities often getting in the way. In a non-tenure situation, a superior teacher can very easily be classified as a "bad teacher" by a petty and vindictive administrator,and fired,  thereby permanently staining that teacher's record and making him essentially unable to land a job anywhere else.

It is an ESSENTIAL benefit of union representation.

It is an ESSENTIAL part of being in a profession. Doctors have review boards, as do lawyers. They cannot be sanctioned without going through a full and thorough due process hearing procedure.

This is a case that is going all the way to the Supreme Court. And we know how the current court will rule.

This is one more step to making teaching a minimum wage at-will job.

And yet, with the same breath, the very same people bringing this suit all talk about how they want the very best teachers, and the very best people entering the teaching profession and teaching our children.

Well, if you keep treating teachers like shit that's what you're going to get for teachers.

Which is the plan in the first place. A segregated education system, where the haves get the best, and the have-nots get nothing.

Originally posted to zenbassoon on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 11:57 AM PDT.

Also republished by California politics.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (124+ / 0-)

    "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." --M. L. King "You can't fix stupid" --Ron White -6.00, -5.18

    by zenbassoon on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 11:57:21 AM PDT

  •  38 years. I'm out after 40. (56+ / 0-)

    All of the politics have made my job so much more difficult.  I love the kids and I love to teach.  With so many non educators making the rules these days, I'm prohibited from doing what I know from experience to be best for my students.  For these people to say that they are making these decisions for the kids is a crock.  Sorry.  It just is.

    “It is the job of the artist to think outside the boundaries of permissible thought and dare say things that no one else will say."—Howard Zinn

    by musiclady on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 12:12:56 PM PDT

  •  Hey, find me a political party (43+ / 0-)

    that believes in teacher unions, and I might be inclined to join it.

    And sorry, the party of Rahm Emanuel and Arne Duncan . . . and Barack Obama . . . isn't measuring up.

    Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

    by corvo on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 12:14:33 PM PDT

  •  Lawyers and doctors can be fired without (15+ / 0-)

    any cause.  

    You appear to be conflating license revocation with termination from a job.

  •  Essential part of being in a profession? (10+ / 0-)

    You don't have protection against being fired as a doctor or lawyer.  If you're in an At-Will state, that's it.

    In this age of standardized testing and textbooks, why precisely does a primary education teacher need tenure (any more so than any given profession) ?  

  •  It's beyond ironic that the attempts to (32+ / 0-)

    destroy teacher tenure are made in the name of the very students who will ultimately suffer the most as a result from its demise--poorer students who can't afford to opt out to fancy private schools, which is where these types of decisions are prompting more affluent parents to send their kids, as public schools are slowly starved of funding and good teachers begin to avoid them.

    Take away teacher tenure and you take away yet another incentive for people to become teachers, while those who do want to teach are increasingly beholden to corporations.

    That will end badly for everyone but the corporations.  That's just inherent in the way corporations are structured.

    I agree this is bad news, not just for teachers, but for everyone.

  •  I have no idea why people keep blaming (31+ / 0-)

    "bad teachers" and never a bad system. It seems to me that if there's a systemic problem, you might want to look at the... system. This is not rocket science. If there are problems everywhere, then those ubiquitous problems should say something about the big picture and not just individuals.

  •  NYTimes article and my own musings (11+ / 0-)

    http://www.nytimes.com/...

    When my youngest son was in the third grade (many years ago) he came home with tales about how out of control his classroom was.  So... I sat in for half a day.  The teacher was in essence ineffectual and looked like he didn't even care at the chaos that was his room.  Children doing cartwheels and running around during a test stand out in my mind.  

    I went to the principal seething with rage.   He said there was nothing he could do.  The teacher had tenure.  But he advised sending him something in writing...which I did.  1-2  YEARs later the teacher was no longer in the classroom but was retained in some other spot.      

    Just saying that tenure... as it now is...may not be the best answer to retain the good and eliminate the bad.   I bet some teacher can come up with a better plan.    

    "When wealth rules, democracy dies." Me

    by leema on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 12:22:50 PM PDT

    •  From my experience, (14+ / 0-)

      at least in our district, that principal may have lied. They just didn't want to be bothered to actually start the discipline process against that teacher, that might lead to firing.

      •  He was probably the principal's nephew. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        sethtriggs, ladybug53, zenbassoon
      •  Ding, ding, ding! (12+ / 0-)

        I am senior scientific staff at a university, not a K-12 employee. But it's a public university so we have due process. K-12 teachers in my state have told me it's almost exactly the same procedure used for tenured teachers.

        You'll hear from a lot of people on campus that it is IMPOSSIBLE to fire anyone around here. I can tell you from personal experience as a manager that this claim is false.

        What I can't do is fire an employee on a whim, sans documentation, with no opportunity to remediate deficiencies, to make room for my cousin's son-in-law ... in short, without providing due process (and abiding by anti-nepotism laws).

        There are exceptions are for extreme situations, such as assault or getting caught red-handed stealing. Then the employee goes straight to admin leave pending investigation. And it doesn't take months or years to complete.

        I have had to fire someone. You notice a problem, you follow procedure. Oral warning without a written record; oral warning with written record at the unit level; written warning, copied to HR; disciplinary probation; and then firing.

        Just because you're not a drummer doesn't mean that you don't have to keep time. -- T. Monk

        by susanala on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 03:56:28 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Exactly. (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          wa ma, ladybug53, zenbassoon

          Managers that "cannot" fire employees that have some sort of due-process protections are either full of shit or just plain lazy and don't want to do the work to document the case and follow the procedure to make the firing stick with an arbitrator.

          That's all. Nothing more to the story.

          "There was no such thing as a "wealthy" hunter-gatherer. It is the creation of human society that has allowed the wealthy to become wealthy. As such, they have an obligation to pay a bit more to sustain that society than the not-so-wealthy." - Me

          by Darth Stateworker on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 04:36:21 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  The Principal may have lied... (0+ / 0-)

        ...but who can blame him?

        Since the kids have no choice but to attend his school, he has no incentive to fix the problem.

    •  There is a process (16+ / 0-)

      I'm going to reply as if your situation was in California, since that's the topic of the diary and it's where I know the rules well. In your state, your mileage will vary.

      First, one wonders why this person was retained as a teacher in the first place. In the first two years, a teacher can be dismissed for any reason, or no reason. Principals have the responsibility to evaluate new teachers, mentor them, and prepare to send them away in the first 18 months if they don't work out. That might not be happening if the principal is incompetent, or overworked, or has too many new teachers at once.

      Second: in your case the teacher was removed from the classroom, in part because you participated in the process: you sent a letter which would have been put in the teacher's file, and would allow the kick-off of certain other actions. This is a very important part of the process.

      (Note: many very smart and capable people suck at classroom management but are useful elsewhere.)

      But, the due process provisions are there for a reason. Teachers used to be fired because they got married, or because they were uppity women who spoke their mind to the principal, or because they dared to give a low grade to the child of a school board trustee. Union members fought for those rules because good teachers were fired for terrible reasons.

      In general, there are options, and many teachers are reassigned to more appropriate positions or persuade to seek employment elsewhere.

      Fry, don't be a hero! It's not covered by our health plan!

      by elfling on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 02:01:38 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  The NYT's article writes about Arne Duncan (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      zenbassoon

      as a strong supporter of the lawsuit. Is that an official Obama administration view?

      "let's talk about that" uid 92953

      by VClib on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 03:42:50 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Civil Service Status (15+ / 0-)

    Tenure is a word that has been poisoned by the privateers and Republicans.  Actually, it is no more that what other government workers call civil service status.  The reason for civil service status in the first place was to prevent political shakedowns of government workers for money or election day favors.

    It has not happened yet, because the billionaires are putting so much money into the political system that individuals cannot keep up.  But soon, without civil service, teachers will be forced into electioneering and political contributing--or else.

    In a way, it could have a sliver of good, because teachers have long since forgotten the insecurities that came with a politicized school system.  They could vote like their lives depend on it.

    I'm from Johnson City.

    by Al Fondy on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 12:38:49 PM PDT

    •  In NY it is more (0+ / 0-)

      In particular, unlike all other civil service which are judged by public employees, teacher disciplinary proceeding have been privatized at the behest of the teachers union.  They are decided by arbitrators partially chosen by the teachers union.

    •  How would teachers lose civil service protection? (0+ / 0-)

      If that's really all that "tenure" is, then sure, the ruling is outrageous.    If it's about something more than the civil service due process procedures that apply to other professional-level public employees, then I haven't heard a good justification for keeping them.

  •  Mixed mind on this (12+ / 0-)

    Unions across the board are in part to blame for their own demise. This includes police and teachers' union. For too long they coddled and protected the worst among at the expense of the public and the students in the case of teachers' unions. In doing so they made adversaries among the parents, especially any parent who tried to protect their kid from a bad teacher.

    I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires. - Susan B. Anthony Everything good a man can be, a dog already is. - pajoly

    by pajoly on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 12:45:28 PM PDT

    •  Then why do states with teachers' unions (28+ / 0-)

      have better performing educational systems? I'm not going to say that unions are perfect, but I don't get the logic of throwing out something that helps teachers work more effectively because it's not effective enough. If you want to make unions even better, then tweak them. You don't throw them out the window, knowing that they improve the system, because you want to keep improving the system. That doesn't make sense.

      •  It is just hard to argue for protection (7+ / 0-)

        like tenure to a population that by and large has less than zero protection for the jobs it holds and they don't get retirement either.

        It may be sad, but don't expect sympathy from the general population who has been fucked over left and right for decades as teachers have enjoyed benefits the rest of society can only dream of. Tenure, retirement, great benefits, time off in the summer, protected paid leave, etc.

        I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires. - Susan B. Anthony Everything good a man can be, a dog already is. - pajoly

        by pajoly on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 01:11:22 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I don't know what great benefits (23+ / 0-)

          your teachers have. Around here, teachers don't have much.

          Poor pay. They don't have summers off, they are laid off every summer. Long hours during the year. In some states, if you have a teacher's pension, you don't get social security.

          Time to leave the comments here because they are laced with a lot of ignorance.

        •  Great job (24+ / 0-)

          Doing exactly what the right wing wants you to do. Everyone else has been fucked, let's make it unanimous. A race to the bottom is the way to go.

          My wife puts in 60 hours a week for not all that much pay, pays plenty for her benefits, and puts up with shit nobody should take. I get pretty tired of hearing how cushy the gig is.

          “Republicans...think American standard of living is a fine thing--so long as it doesn't spread to all the people... And they admire of Government of the United States so much that they would like to buy it.” Harry S. Truman

          by fenway49 on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 01:38:49 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Look, I'm not agreeing; I'm just pointing out (5+ / 0-)

            the challenge teachers face trying to convince the public of their pain. Shoot the messenger if you like (I'm not fragile), but that's just the reality.

            I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires. - Susan B. Anthony Everything good a man can be, a dog already is. - pajoly

            by pajoly on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 04:21:11 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  OK, didn't mean to suggest (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Be Skeptical

              it was you personally. But it's an argument that leaves us all with nothing. If we can't find a way to win that argument, it really is game over for a thriving middle class.

              “Republicans...think American standard of living is a fine thing--so long as it doesn't spread to all the people... And they admire of Government of the United States so much that they would like to buy it.” Harry S. Truman

              by fenway49 on Wed Jun 11, 2014 at 08:11:28 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  In other words, some public workers still get... (22+ / 0-)

          ...what each and every worker deserves, and you want to eliminate those protections for public workers instead of demanding them for everyone else.

          (Also of note: It's only some public workers who still have those protections, and their numbers are getting smaller and smaller as the right-wing pushes the very same attitude you promote, pitting public-sector workers against private-sector workers.)

          I don't accept that as a progressive platform.

          We should be demanding that all workers—whether in the public or private sectors—have the protections and benefits they deserve, the same protections and benefits that many public-sector workers have. We should be standing up for the right of all workers to organize.

          American workers have been pitted against one another for too long by the greedy rich, who laugh all the way to the bank at the divided American working class. It's time to work together, public and private sector alike, against those who profit by exploiting the labor of others.

          "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." --Dom Helder Camara, archbishop of Recife

          by JamesGG on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 01:54:16 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Re (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            AlexDrew
            * [new]  In other words, some public workers still get... (12+ / 0-)
            ...what each and every worker deserves, and you want to eliminate those protections for public workers instead of demanding them for everyone else.
            Public workers should get exactly the same pay and benefits that private workers do. At whatever time private workers get better pay and benefits we can talk about restoring public pay and benefits (indeed, we will need to, or public employees will quit for the private sector).

            (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
            Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

            by Sparhawk on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 04:37:10 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Private sector workers DO get paid more and get (0+ / 0-)

              "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." --M. L. King "You can't fix stupid" --Ron White -6.00, -5.18

              by zenbassoon on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 09:52:07 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  I think public... (0+ / 0-)

              ...workers should get more to compensate for the lack of "upside".

              If you become a teacher straight out of college, you learn exactly one skill. You will always be a teacher unless you get extensive training.

              If you go work for a Corporation you will learn a variety of skills, you will get hired and fired and learn different jobs, and there is the possibility that you may land a nice executive position or become a successful business owner down the line.

              A teacher will never be a multi-millionaire. An entry-level Corporate Cubicle guy might, though.

              I don't grudge teachers their salaries. It's the lack of accountability for results that I see as the main problem.

              •  Accountability for results (0+ / 0-)

                My wife's a teacher in an urban high school. An exchange (her and all her colleagues) that happens daily goes like this:

                Teacher: OK, Stacy, let's take a look at question 1.

                Student: No. I'm not doing it. This is stupid. I don't care.

                Teacher: C'mon, Stacy. Just take a look at it.

                Student: Not doing it. I don't understand it.

                Teacher: What don't you understand?

                Student: I don't understand why you're making us do this stupid shit. Fuck you. Not doing it. Don't care.

                Meeting in private with the student, sending the student to guidance counselors, meeting with parents, with student and parents, offering extra help, offering carrots, offering sticks, nothing ever works. This is not one kid. It's like 20% of the school.

                A lot of these kids come in with major problems. Broken families, poverty, crime, violence, no access to anyone who's ever valued education. Apathy may be normal among high-schoolers but I've never seen anything like this. They don't understand (or pretend not to understand) why cut-and-paste from Wikipedia (hyperlinks to footnotes and all) is not "in their own words."

                My wife comes home from 9 hours in the building and spends evenings lesson planning, grading, and studying for the half-million professional development courses they make her take. Half the students are on an IEP so she has to individualize their tests. And then we flip on the TV and see some douche in a $3,000 suit talking about assigning her a letter grade based on the students' standardized test scores, and canning her if they don't do well. And this is in one of the most liberal and unionized states in the nation.

                The America they've created is a shitty place indeed.

                “Republicans...think American standard of living is a fine thing--so long as it doesn't spread to all the people... And they admire of Government of the United States so much that they would like to buy it.” Harry S. Truman

                by fenway49 on Wed Jun 11, 2014 at 08:23:38 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  The best... (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Be Skeptical, Sparhawk

                  ...evaluation systems account for the demographics of the kids.

                  If you wife has a class full of poor, ELL, or IEP kids, then she would be allowed lower standards for their test scores.

                  In fact, a proper IEP should state those standards. She should not be expected to bring a poor IEP kid to the same level as a kid from an educated 2-parent suburban household.

        •  Most workers had those benefits and better (17+ / 0-)

          even as recently as 1992. AT&T used to have better benefits than anything teachers in NJ could get, and nearly as much vacation time ( PAID vacation, unlike teachers ) for veteran workers, who needed no special degrees or training. And good pensions too. We were all sold a load of horseshit about giving away tax cuts to the rich and how it would help us all; about how we didn't need unions and didn't need to the gov't to enforce labor laws, about how companies didn't have to honor their promises; about how 401k's were better than pensions. instead of fighting the teachers, people need to be out in the streets demanding action.

        •  That's the divide and conquer, crabs in a (15+ / 0-)

          barrel strategy the right has employed for the last 35 years or so -- take away pensions and even minimal workplace protections from private sector workers, and then tell them that those lazy SOBs over there have it too good.

          "Think of something to make the ridiculous look ridiculous." -- Molly Ivins

          by dumpster on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 02:50:39 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Bucket of crabs mentality for the loss! n/t (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          zenbassoon

          "There was no such thing as a "wealthy" hunter-gatherer. It is the creation of human society that has allowed the wealthy to become wealthy. As such, they have an obligation to pay a bit more to sustain that society than the not-so-wealthy." - Me

          by Darth Stateworker on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 04:23:29 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  So why don't you FIGHT for them then? (0+ / 0-)

          "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." --M. L. King "You can't fix stupid" --Ron White -6.00, -5.18

          by zenbassoon on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 09:48:15 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  when I see the word "coddled" i know I am not (7+ / 0-)

        reading original thought but parroted right wing talking points...

        •  Really? So now I'm a right wing troll? (5+ / 0-)

          because you don't like the word I chose? When I hear idiots claiming others are just parroting talking points, I know they no intellectual honesty. All you can do is defame. Kiss my progressive ass for my having the audacity to present the challenge as I see it. I don't really give a fuck if you don't like it.

          I've four kids, all in advanced gifted programs with largely excellent teachers...save for one who should have been fired long ago. She IS being coddled God damn it. I've had 3 principal meetings with her in attendance. I know other parents who have had multiple. This is a woman who told a class (including a Jewish kid) that Jews are going to hell. This is a teacher who gets in kids' faces and yells at them until they cry. These are HIGHLY gifted kids in a dual immersion program. This has been going on for 3 years and not a G-damned thing has happened to the teacher. Yeah, she is being coddled.

          Or maybe I should just respond to you the way my politically active liberal lawyer friend who is the Jewish father of the Jewish kid I referred to above would respond to you for saying I am parroting Right wing talking points: fuck you.

          I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires. - Susan B. Anthony Everything good a man can be, a dog already is. - pajoly

          by pajoly on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 04:30:17 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Sounds like a management/admin (5+ / 0-)

            failure to me, not a problem with tenure as a system.

            "Lone catch of the moon, the roots of the sigh of an idea there will be the outcome may be why?"--from a spam diary entitled "The Vast World."

            by bryduck on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 04:35:21 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  So, one teacher (4+ / 0-)

            has presented an obstacle to your kids' learning. One. Out of how many?

            One each per grade level, K thru 6, and let's add in another 3 for "specials" over the course of elementary school. That gives us 9-10 teachers.

            On to middle school. Another 5 teachers per grade level, and that's being conservative. I won't even add "specials" like music, art, or band, and we still wind up with another 15 teachers through whose classroom a kid will have passed.

            In my high school, most kids take 5-6 classes (some take as many as 8) per year, meaning another 20-25 teachers at a minimum. Even using conservative numbers, that still puts us at around 50 teachers that a student will have "had" over the course of a K-12 career.

            I'm sorry that your kids have had such a negative experience with their teacher; I really am, since one bad teacher reflects poorly on my entire profession. Still, that one bad teacher must have been pretty friggin' bad, for her to make you want to strip me of protections that - in my district, at least - aren't abused like the horror stories I'm reading about here. Out of...what? Four hundred different classroom experiences (50 teachers x 4 kids), four of them were so egregiously bad that workers in other states should lose their due process rights? Ouch.

            If you'll forgive the analogy, this seems like you're going after the UAW because your local dealer sold you a car with defects. If you want to go after your teachers' local or up to the superintendent/school board, then imho, you oughta do what you need to do - just don't advocate that I be punished for the failures of someone else.

            •  If I had only ever had one dysfunctional boss (0+ / 0-)

              In my life.. man, can you imagine that?  It just seems unthinkable to me.

              Gandhi's Seven Sins: Wealth without work; Pleasure without conscience; Knowledge without character; Commerce without morality; Science without humanity; Worship without sacrifice; Politics without principle

              by Chris Reeves on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 10:39:00 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  I wish... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Justanothernyer

              ...the anti-reformers would stop with the bad free-market analogies.

              The NEA and UFT are not like the UAW.

              If I have a beef with the UAW I can buy a non-union car.

              If I have a beef with whatever teacher my Zoned Public School assigns to my kid, I have no recourse. None.

              If we had Charters and Vouchers and Magnet Schools, and various other ways for families to choose a school, this would not be an issue! pajoly could send his kids elsewhere!

              But the unions have effectively blocked School Choice. So, since I am in a forced arranged marriage with my UFT Local, they need to shape up. ASAP.

              •  And I wish... (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                musiclady

                ...that the reformy types would stop advocating that I be stripped of my rights because they once met a teacher they didn't like.

                No recourse? Your school board isn't elected? Your district doesn't hold open meetings with public comments? Your newspaper won't print editorials that oppose the Big, Evil Teachers' Union? There's a difference between "no recourse" and "things that are kind of a pain in the butt."

                I know you know this, but those funding siphons you recommend as the cure-all for our education woes deliver mixed results in the best of circumstances, and of dangerously poor quality in others. Sure, you can roll out a few examples of successes, but for every one, I can show you two failures.

                Stripping teachers of job-place protections has not improved education - in the short term, it's resulted in a de-professionaliization of a once-noble career path, while in the long term, it will doom at least a generation of Americans to "teaching" at the hands of TFA drones.

                But hey, at least some rich white folks got somebody else to pay for their kids' private schooling, so it's all good, right?

          •  Complain to the principal, when you get no (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            zenbassoon, elfling

            response then go over his head to the next level, and the next and the next. Go to the Superintendent. Complain to the various school board members. Make a fuss. In my system the squeaky wheel gets the grease.

            The principal is the one who needs to step up and do his job of documenting the problems, doing the paperwork, and stop being lazy. It is Administration that is the problem.

            In our system principals have 3 years with new teachers to get rid of them -- no reason need be given. They don't like something, they don't have to show documentation, they just say nope, you are not receiving a new contract and I don't have to say why.

            After the 3rd contract we earn tenure -- but all that means is "fair dismissal" rights. The right to a public hearing on the reasons for not receiving another contract. We get 1-year contracts. Year by year. Earning tenure doesn't mean anything other than fair dismissal rights. We can be fired for cause, we can be laid off.

            •  Superintendent knows. His underlings know. (0+ / 0-)

              The principal certainly knows and this problem pre-dates him. His predecessor did nothing either. The teacher is committed, but her methods are completely out of step with the culture. She's from Singapore (and an evangelical), where teachers routinely mete out discipline to the children and where they have much more power. So to her, preaching in the class is no problem, yet she denies it in meetings with her superiors and parents, just as she denies the yelling in the faces of the kids. The parents have taken to sitting in her classes in attempts to restrain her abuse.

              I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires. - Susan B. Anthony Everything good a man can be, a dog already is. - pajoly

              by pajoly on Wed Jun 11, 2014 at 07:27:58 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  I get that you're frustrated (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Sylv

            But the 'fuck you' to another user is not acceptable here.

            Fry, don't be a hero! It's not covered by our health plan!

            by elfling on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 10:19:18 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  It's acceptable when I'm accused of parroting (0+ / 0-)

              RW talking points; in other words being called a RW troll.

              I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires. - Susan B. Anthony Everything good a man can be, a dog already is. - pajoly

              by pajoly on Wed Jun 11, 2014 at 07:24:13 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  No, it's absolutely not. (0+ / 0-)

                Escalating the namecalling doesn't enhance the discussion nor convince anyone. "Fuck you" is unambiguous, unnecessary, and harmful to the discussion.

                Fry, don't be a hero! It's not covered by our health plan!

                by elfling on Wed Jun 11, 2014 at 07:47:43 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  when I read "right wing talking points" (0+ / 0-)

          I know someone isn't listening but merely reflexively assigning points that he doesn't want to answer to some vague wellspring of conservative blather.

          It's lazy and not helpful.

      •  States with teacher's unions... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        elfling, Justanothernyer

        ...tend to be more liberal.

        Liberal states are more likely to invest in healthcare, nutrition, housing, libraries, and all that good non-educational stuff that makes poor kids do better in school.

        Also Liberal states have more educated populations, and thus better home environments for the kids. In our house we don't watch NASCAR. We watch Cosmos.

        Lastly, since we Liberals are morally superior, we make better parents. We are also less likely to be divorced.

        This is snark. But only partly snark -- I think that any correlation between teacher unionization and educational performance is pretty tenuous. There are too many correlating variables and only 50 data points.

        Lastly, how are you measuring "better performing"?  Surely not with a standardized test...?

        •  I think most of that is true (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ManhattanMan

          I think that communities with teachers' unions also basically have the message, "We value teachers," and are places that attract the stronger and more desirable teachers.

          But the union has some real ability to make schools better. The line is "teacher working conditions are student learning conditions," and I think it should not be discounted. When teachers say they want smaller class sizes, they're advocating for themselves and for their kids. When they say they want a supply budget, or a leaky roof fixed, they're advocating for themselves and their kids. When they say a classroom needs air conditioning because it hits 90F while they're trying to teach the kids Algebra, they're advocating for themselves and their kids.

          Can teachers in Mississippi advocate for those things without risking their jobs?

          Fry, don't be a hero! It's not covered by our health plan!

          by elfling on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 10:43:12 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  The idea (0+ / 0-)

          The idea, to some extent at least, is to point out how the narrative that educational problems in this country are due to teachers' unions protecting bad teachers fails.

          Procrastination: Hard work often pays off after time, but laziness always pays off now.

          by Linnaeus on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 10:53:32 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  "Coddled"? (19+ / 0-)

      What teacher wants to work with a terrible colleague? Who wants to get students that are unprepared and unmotivated because the teacher who had the kids last year sucked?

      The actual charge that is associated with the phrase "coddling" is that unions do often defend a member facing dismissal as part of the union benefits. That does not mean the person will not be removed, only that they have an advocate that knows the process and stands up for their rights.

      There are people who would say the US "coddles" criminals because the accused is entitled to a defense attorney. I wouldn't be among them.

      Fry, don't be a hero! It's not covered by our health plan!

      by elfling on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 02:08:34 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  it will be appealed (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    elfling, pacifica, zenbassoon

    not that this isn't a bad ruling, but it's not final.

  •  The sad thing is that tenure was not a problem in (19+ / 0-)

    poorly performing schools (I even hate using that term, because it is based on stupid test scores)--those schools tend to have the highest turnover of teachers already.  

    http://www.ascd.org/...

    This is just another effort to get rid of higher paid teachers and replace them with TFAers.

    To be free and just depends on us. Victor Hugo.

    by dizzydean on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 01:29:54 PM PDT

  •  One of these "terrible teachers" (9+ / 0-)

    was a teacher of the year.

    Fry, don't be a hero! It's not covered by our health plan!

    by elfling on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 01:31:21 PM PDT

  •  Don't assume that this will stand appeal (12+ / 0-)

    A runaway judge in NY ruled that teacher tenure in private schools was unconstitutional. An appeals court smacked him down pretty hard and overturned the decision.

  •  If the issue is "6th Amendment Rights" how (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    zenbassoon

    could the court rule this way?  Were the advocates for tenure arguing in court that change violated the 6th Amendment ?

    The most important way to protect the environment is not to have more than one child.

    by nextstep on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 01:50:01 PM PDT

  •  even in california, talk radio still works great (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sethtriggs, zenbassoon

    This is a list of 76 universities for Rush Limbaugh that endorse global warming denial, racism, sexism, and GOP lies by broadcasting sports on over 170 Limbaugh radio stations.

    by certainot on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 03:26:08 PM PDT

  •  It has to do with the union (4+ / 0-)

    and that's good enough for that judge.

    Before we know it, the Koch brothers will be deciding what the kids will learn.


    The religious fanatics didn't buy the republican party because it was virtuous, they bought it because it was for sale

    by nupstateny on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 03:26:53 PM PDT

    •  Sadly unions will never come back (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      zenbassoon

      I hope they do but I'm not very hopeful.  My husband has now found being in New Zealand (where unions are strong) is a much better alternative than the US and he has work in NZ.  Sad.

      •  Maybe not in their current forms (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        bahaba, zenbassoon

        I don't think, however, that worker organization will ever go away completely. You can't put that genie back in the bottle, as much as TPTB would like to.

        The key is, as always, finding new and better ways to organize. Power resides in numbers if you don't have the dollars.

        Procrastination: Hard work often pays off after time, but laziness always pays off now.

        by Linnaeus on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 07:03:20 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I've know a few petty Principals in my time.. (8+ / 0-)

    It is a shame to give one "man" all that power! They backdate evaluations, claim they don't "believe" in superior ratings, mark you down if a Special Ed student doesn't raise a hand, object to posters and student work on the walls....oh the list is unbelievable....I just couldn't name them all.

    I had one that claimed I took too many Reading classes.....I was a "Reading Specialist" and was trying to keep current....sheesh....I feel for all teachers that are not retired.

    Character is what you are in the dark. Emilio Lizardo in Buckaroo Bonzai

    by Temmoku on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 03:29:34 PM PDT

    •  That's why I am a fan... (0+ / 0-)

      ...of standardized tests.

      Testing has a downside, but the upside is that it removes much of the politics from teacher evaluations.

      •  If only such testing was accurate. It's not. (0+ / 0-)

        The American Statistical Association, for instance, disapproves of VAM testing, of which you have been a fervent proponent.

        A short snippet:

        VAMs should be viewed within the context of quality improvement, which distinguishes aspects of quality that can be attributed to the system from those that can be attributed to individual teachers, teacher preparation programs, or schools. Most VAM studies find that teachers account for about 1% to 14% of the variability in test scores, and that the majority of opportunities for quality improvement are found in the system-level conditions. Ranking teachers by their VAM scores can have unintended consequences that reduce quality.
      •  My students were expert at "connect-the-dots" (0+ / 0-)

        on standardized tests. In effect, the tests didn't measure them at all. I had to motivate, bribe, or threaten them. None of that worked. They would get a better score than at the beginning of the year...but the following year, their scores slid right back down.
        The tests only work if the student is engaged and serious about doing better. Minority, under priviledged, disengaged, apathetic students don't score well.

        Character is what you are in the dark. Emilio Lizardo in Buckaroo Bonzai

        by Temmoku on Sat Jun 14, 2014 at 07:57:47 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Teachers unions here have been under a well- (7+ / 0-)

    rehearsed, concerted, determined attack for years now. And it's paying off for anti-union types. Unions and progressives will have to mount an equal and opposite concerted attack.

    "The soil under the grass is dreaming of a young forest, and under the pavement the soil is dreaming of grass."--Wendell Berry

    by Wildthumb on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 03:31:36 PM PDT

  •  I heard that teachers are responsible (5+ / 0-)

    for America's downfall. Something about getting a middle class wage, and that's bad for America.

     I remember back in the 80's and 90's that being a public school was a joke because they didn't get paid anything. My how times have changed.

    "The oppressors most powerful weapon is the mind of the oppressed." - Stephen Biko

    by gjohnsit on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 03:36:20 PM PDT

  •  The problem is political. (11+ / 0-)

    It isn't tenure.  It isn't being able to fire bad teachers.  It isn't about being able to reward good teacher with salary increases.

    It isn't about kid's education and emotional well being.  It's all about politics, and that isn't right.

      In my county the newly elected majority tea party "Board of Education"  fired a very good Superintendent of the county's schools, suddenly.  The story was she resigned.  Humm.  I say she caught on to their witch hunt, took the money and exited.  I can't say that I blame her.

    They gave her $200,000. severance, with the stipulation that she and they, the board, sign a non-disclosure agreement.  No one can speak.   They also paid an additional $100,000. in attorney fees.  This has cost the taxpayers $300,000. this far and that does not include the additional expense and time to hire a new Superintendent.  

    They held the vote when they knew two of the board members who would oppose would be out of town.  The third refused to go along with the farce.  They held numerous meetings out of the public's eye with nary a questioning of them doing so, with the exception of one editorial in the local paper.

    Something rotten is going on in my county in NC, and children are going to be the ones punished.

    Sad.  It is all political.  Can I say it loud enough?  Infiltrating school boards are the first place Republicans make their stand.

    That must change.

  •  idiots (5+ / 0-)

    A fine example of the right manufacturing a meme and corrupting the discussion.

    Damn it, I wonder if any of them remember the days when a teacher could be fired without notice for being in the wrong political party, or married to the wrong person, or being unmarried and sexually active, etc.

    This diary is spot on - tenure in the public schools is about DUE PROCESS. Tenured incompetent teachers can be removed.

    Now those protections are removed for ALL California teachers - and I promise this is just the beginning of the right's plan to destroy a cornerstone of our democracy - free public education.

    This action insures that dedicated education professionals are going to abandon the state and the quality of California's public schools will now begin to decline.

    A sad day for teachers, parents, children, and the communities that depend on an educated populace.

  •  17 years in TN (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Teiresias70, ladybug53, zenbassoon

    (really 19, but I took off for maternity and other stuff). I am out at 25 if I can survive.

    The truth is always the truth whether you choose to believe it or not.

    by sfsteach on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 04:01:24 PM PDT

  •  i'm a janitor in a school represented by SEIU (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    zenbassoon

    there's no tenure for us. I'm not sure that tenure is an essential part of organized labor. While tenure laws have been struck down I'm sure that most aspects of them can be reimplemented in the teacher's union contract.

    •  Tenure was designed to help protect (6+ / 0-)

      academic freedom as well. It would not apply to janitors, though reasonable protections should be in place with your union contract. I am glad to see you are represented by a true labor union and nothe local NEA affiliate.If workers were allowed to organize again, the boards of ed would find themselves having to deal with real unions like the Teamsters, SEIU and so on when they privatize.

      •  tenure was made for college professors (4+ / 0-)

        who come up with radical theories without losing their jobs. I'm not sure academic freedom is quite as important for a public school teacher who teach from a board supported curriculum.

        •  Except evolution is now a "radical theory." Tha... (5+ / 0-)

          Except evolution is now a "radical theory." Thanks, Overton window.

        •  The "academic freedom" argument makes no sense (4+ / 0-)

          Public school teachers don't do research. They teach from a standard curriculum dictated by the district. There is no need for "freedom".

          (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
          Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

          by Sparhawk on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 06:22:45 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Don't neglect pedagogy (4+ / 0-)

            Public schools may have a standard curriculum, but that doesn't mean that each teacher's methods are going to be the same. How you teach is as much a question of freedom as what you teach.

            Procrastination: Hard work often pays off after time, but laziness always pays off now.

            by Linnaeus on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 07:04:51 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  yeah. when i work (5+ / 0-)

              I work when and how I'm told to. Every job I've ever had where I tried to do it my own way I didn't last long.. I don't know why it should be different for teachers.

              •  There's no standard way to teach (4+ / 0-)

                You can have standardized subjects, but there's no single magic formula. You have to adapt to things like new subject matter, different student population, new research in your subject that reveals new information, etc. It's not something you can really dictate in a standard operating procedure.

                In fact, even so-called education reformers couch pedagogy in the language of freedom - they argue that their approach allows the best teachers the freedom to teach as they know best. Now we can argue about who the best teachers are, but the point is that even they recognize that pedagogy is something that each teacher develops for herself or himself.

                Procrastination: Hard work often pays off after time, but laziness always pays off now.

                by Linnaeus on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 07:19:32 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Children, though aren't machinery (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Darth Stateworker, Sylv

                And dealing with their parents is a complex system that changes every single year.   Some children will exceed expectations.   Others may fall behind.   Some parents may be very interested.  Some may not care.

                Teaching isn't like turning out a widget.  You have no control over the product you receive and you have no idea how it can change - or be impacted - from the time you leave it when you go home from work to how that student comes in in the morning.

                Gandhi's Seven Sins: Wealth without work; Pleasure without conscience; Knowledge without character; Commerce without morality; Science without humanity; Worship without sacrifice; Politics without principle

                by Chris Reeves on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 11:29:31 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  In my engineer job (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              anime1973, Justanothernyer

              I am given some reasonable latitude to do my job as I see fit. (There is no legal requirement to do this, just good business practice). This is true in most cases, but in some cases I am literally forced to do things as my employer demands regardless of my personal feelings about it.

              I would imagine that educational environments have a similar dynamic just like almost literally any other job under the sun. It isn't clear to me what is so special that you need some "right" to do your job unimpeded by supervisors that the rest of us don't get. Occasionally you get micromanaging supervisors who make life difficult and demand things be done "their way". What else is new?

              (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
              Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

              by Sparhawk on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 08:22:39 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Engineering is not education. Period. Don't ever (0+ / 0-)

                try to equate the two.

                "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." --M. L. King "You can't fix stupid" --Ron White -6.00, -5.18

                by zenbassoon on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 10:02:15 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  One problem is that sometimes parents (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Sylv

                don't agree with what you are teaching or they object if you discipline their child.  I've seen parents whose children can do absolutely no wrong go all the way to the superintendent because they were unhappy with a grade that their child received or they were unhappy with a consequence given to their child over some sort of infraction.  Some admins just don't want to deal with that.  That is one reason tenure is necessary.

                Another is that often the teacher is the only advocate a child may have.  There are times when a child really needs special services that the parents are in denial over or that the system would rather not provide due to the expense.  It is typically the teacher who sits in those meetings presenting data on the child.  Some admins get upset when teachers push for services for children.  

                Repeated parent complaints from a lot of parents is one thing and I know that my system uses parent and student surveys as a part of their evaluations.  But one pissy parent can destroy someone's career over a personal beef without some sort of protection.  

                One person's awful teacher may be another person's effective teacher.  

                “It is the job of the artist to think outside the boundaries of permissible thought and dare say things that no one else will say."—Howard Zinn

                by musiclady on Wed Jun 11, 2014 at 05:30:19 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  Or HS Biology teachers (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          vitaminC, Darth Stateworker

          Who teach evolution in the face of non-believers..
          Or who teach Global Warming in the face of deniers
          Or who teach sex ed to parents who don't like it
          Or teachers who have to give a non-passing grade to a star athlete
          Or a teacher who assigns a book that someone may find controversial, from Perks of Being a Wallflower to Huck Finn

          Or teachers who have to advocate for more funds for an IEP student who needs them, despite the wishes of their administration.

          Or teachers who have to tell parents that their student should be held back a grade
          Or teachers who have to report child abuse of a child
          Or a teacher who has to consider whether or not a child is fed as whether or not the family needs help or it's a case of neglect.

          Gandhi's Seven Sins: Wealth without work; Pleasure without conscience; Knowledge without character; Commerce without morality; Science without humanity; Worship without sacrifice; Politics without principle

          by Chris Reeves on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 11:27:41 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  what the teacher teaches is all down to (0+ / 0-)

            the standardized curriculum. just do what your boss says.

            •  So you want administration (0+ / 0-)

              To say:

              Pass a kid who shouldn't pass and you do it.

              Don't teach evolution or global warming because the community doesn't want it.

              The administration pick the literature you'll study with kids.

              ...

              Gandhi's Seven Sins: Wealth without work; Pleasure without conscience; Knowledge without character; Commerce without morality; Science without humanity; Worship without sacrifice; Politics without principle

              by Chris Reeves on Wed Jun 11, 2014 at 04:51:58 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  you can take the issue higher (0+ / 0-)

                take it to the superintendent or the school board. honestly I wouldn't care if the schools didn't teach either evolution or global warming so long as they didn't teach creationism and global warming denial either. Kids are basically passed for showing up in the public school system anyway. I'd think you would worry more about prejudice increasing race-based failings

  •  Re (4+ / 0-)
    It is an ESSENTIAL part of being in a profession. Doctors have review boards, as do lawyers. They cannot be sanctioned without going through a full and thorough due process hearing procedure.
    Doctors can be fired by their client or employer for any reason or no reason.

    Lawyers can be fired by their client or employer for any reason or no reason.

    Engineers can be fired by their client or employer for any reason or no reason.

    The review boards exist generally for sanction by professional associations and licensure issues, not for any relationship with an employer.

    (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
    Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

    by Sparhawk on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 04:08:40 PM PDT

    •  Yes, and notone of them services as many clients a (6+ / 0-)

      day as a teacher for such low pay, nor are any subject to outside political pressure from nonprofessionals with no expertise in their fields. And not a one would be the least bit concerned about your opinion of their profession, as you would have no standing to criticize it. No other country holds its teachers in such low regard. Not even in the 3rd world. Tenure was put in place to allow teachers to teach without being harassed by outsiders or fired to make room for younger, cheaper teachers, and also to benefit the kids. Yes, that's right, to prevent CHURN. Teachers weren't paid much but had a certain status with tenure that acted as an incentive to remain in a quasi profession that is not valued much by a capitalist society drunk on the religion of markets. As incentives are watered down, you won't find people going into teaching so much. Can't get the best students into teaching right now? How bout we pay them less and treat them like shit, that will get us some great teachers!

      •  So because of that, they shouldn't be expected... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        AlexDrew, Sparhawk

        ...to do a good job?  That's the message I'm getting.  We're not paid like doctors or engineers, so you should be happy we show up at all.

        It's not the side effects of the cocaine/I'm thinking that it must be love

        by Rich in PA on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 06:29:22 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Teacher working conditions are (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Darth Stateworker

          student learning conditions.

          Also--

          It's a hell of a recruiting campaign: "Teachers suck and are the reason kids don't learn. Come be a teacher!"

          "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." --M. L. King "You can't fix stupid" --Ron White -6.00, -5.18

          by zenbassoon on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 10:05:02 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Unless, of course, their positions are (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      zenbassoon

      covered by a contract, which in virtually all those cases, they are. Apples/oranges. The diarist may have mistaken his/her target comparisons, but the thrust of the complaint is still valid. And besides, being prone to be "fired . . . for any reason or no reason" comprises a pretty poor existence that we should be fighting against and/or to improve.

      "Lone catch of the moon, the roots of the sigh of an idea there will be the outcome may be why?"--from a spam diary entitled "The Vast World."

      by bryduck on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 04:33:08 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Re (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        AlexDrew, Justanothernyer
        nd besides, being prone to be "fired . . . for any reason or no reason" comprises a pretty poor existence that we should be fighting against and/or to improve.
        Not me. Easy to fire means easy to hire. I'd much rather live in a world of free contracts where job mobility is possible because there are job openings elsewhere.

        (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
        Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

        by Sparhawk on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 05:34:11 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Not necessarily (3+ / 0-)
          Easy to fire means easy to hire.
          For one thing, this assumes that all workers of comparable skills necessary for a given job are on the same footing in the hiring and firing process. But a look at American labor history demonstrates that that's not something you can take as a given.

          Procrastination: Hard work often pays off after time, but laziness always pays off now.

          by Linnaeus on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 05:53:00 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  That only works (4+ / 0-)

          when there is relative equality between the parties but that is not the case and thus your utopia is nothing but a race to the bottom for 99% of people who will wind up being a servant class to the rich.

          •  It doesn't matter (0+ / 0-)

            Easy to fire is easy to hire whether we are all libertarian free agents or quasi-enslaved drudges laboring under the 1%'s boot heel.

            In all cases, sure you might keep your current job, but there is very little opportunity for raises or finding better jobs. This is true regardless of the relative power of the employer/worker.

            (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
            Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

            by Sparhawk on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 08:14:15 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Prove this: (0+ / 0-)
          Easy to fire means easy to hire.
          Because I think that is nonsense. What prevents an employer from hiring whomever s/he wants at any time under any circumstances? If an employee is incompetent (or worse), all it takes to fire (or correct) that bad actor is good management, even without "at will" laws. What you are actually supporting here is lazy and sometimes incompetent management, because in "at will" environments, managers don't have to prove their reasoning behind dismissals.

          "Lone catch of the moon, the roots of the sigh of an idea there will be the outcome may be why?"--from a spam diary entitled "The Vast World."

          by bryduck on Wed Jun 11, 2014 at 03:02:20 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Doctors CANNOT be fired by their hospitals for (0+ / 0-)

      any reason. They have to go through the review board. DUE FUCKING PROCESS.

      "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." --M. L. King "You can't fix stupid" --Ron White -6.00, -5.18

      by zenbassoon on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 10:03:03 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  All part of the plan. (8+ / 0-)

    What prevents a science teacher from being forced to teach creationism if an administrator (or the political winds in a state) demand it?

    Tenure.

    What prevents a History teacher from having to teach alternate versions of history that whitewash things like segregation?

    Tenure.

    What prevents a math teacher from being fired for teaching lessons on logical equations in a state that decides that it no longer wants to teach critical thinking skills (looking at YOU, Texas!)?

    Tenure.

    What prevents administrators from firing older teachers who have paid their dues and are in the top earnings years of their careers when the administrators decide it's time for budget cuts? (Hooray age discrimination!)

    Tenure - and related LIFO rules that also got tossed in this decision.

    If you don't support tenure, don't call yourself a liberal.  Period.  Only an idiot thinks tenure exists as nothing more as a "bad teacher protection racket" as the anti-teacher groups like to paint it, and if you're gullible enough to buy into it - do us all a favor and switch parties.  Now.

    "There was no such thing as a "wealthy" hunter-gatherer. It is the creation of human society that has allowed the wealthy to become wealthy. As such, they have an obligation to pay a bit more to sustain that society than the not-so-wealthy." - Me

    by Darth Stateworker on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 04:22:13 PM PDT

    •  Ridiculous (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      AlexDrew, peregrinus, Justanothernyer

      I'm a Liberal and I support this decision.

      If you don't have to live with the current atmosphere of bad teachers being redirected to your child's school because of tenure, then you have no room to tell me anything about anything.

      So take your high horse somewhere else.

      •  Then you are deluding yourself. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        P E Outlier, zenbassoon

        Liberals support due process at work.  Neo-libs and "left libertarians" don't.

        Choose one, but don't call yourself a liberal if you're going to buy into this garbage.

        If you don't like my high horse, too bad, because I'm tired of seeing people do this kind of shit and act as enablers to the fucking GOP everywhere.

        "There was no such thing as a "wealthy" hunter-gatherer. It is the creation of human society that has allowed the wealthy to become wealthy. As such, they have an obligation to pay a bit more to sustain that society than the not-so-wealthy." - Me

        by Darth Stateworker on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 05:34:20 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  So poor and minorities should suffer then? (1+ / 3-)
          Recommended by:
          AlexDrew
          Hidden by:
          elfling, cville townie, tytalus

          Really? Well fuck you and your high horse. You and your kind LOST.

          This is just the beginning.

          Btw, all liberals don't fit into your one size fits all bullshit categories. That's what tea nuts do.

          •  No, they shouldn't suffer (4+ / 0-)

            But I'm skeptical that ending teacher tenure will bring the results that are being implicitly promised.

            Procrastination: Hard work often pays off after time, but laziness always pays off now.

            by Linnaeus on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 06:56:11 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  It's a start of a long road. (0+ / 0-)

              Accountability and transparency should be aimed on all levels.

              It always amazes me when teacher's union supporters always look at how it affects them. They never speak about the children being hurt by bad teachers. Or what this means for the children they are in charge of teaching. It's them vs parents and their kids.

              •  No, that's not it (4+ / 0-)
                It always amazes me when teacher's union supporters always look at how it affects them. They never speak about the children being hurt by bad teachers.
                It isn't that teachers' union supporters (and yes, I am one) want bad teachers in the classroom or that they don't care about educational outcomes, it's that the "bad teacher" narrative is a seductively simple one that glosses over a lot of other things.

                It's seductive because it identifies a single problem (bad teachers) and a relatively simple solution (just fire them). It sets up a mutually exclusive arrangement in which you can have either teachers with tenure and other protections or you can have good teachers. But not both.

                That is, I would argue, a false dichotomy. And it's a false dichotomy being promulgated in the context of a broader situation in which you have forces who would like to weaken both the public school system and organized labor and parents who (understandably) want to make sure that their children get a good education.

                Let me reiterate that I don't think there aren't bad teachers out there. It's just that I suspect that there's more going on here than just an effort - broadly speaking - to get better teachers.

                Procrastination: Hard work often pays off after time, but laziness always pays off now.

                by Linnaeus on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 09:06:21 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Again, WHAT "bad teacher problem"? They are (0+ / 0-)

                NOT running rampant everywhere. It's closer to ONE PERCENT.

                "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." --M. L. King "You can't fix stupid" --Ron White -6.00, -5.18

                by zenbassoon on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 10:09:03 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  The idea that the poor and minorities (3+ / 0-)

            "suffer because of tenure" is bullshit, plain and simple.

            Nor do I demand ideological purity on every issue.  But anyone that claims to be a liberal - and has issues with core liberal beliefs like workers rights - isn't a liberal.

            You can view that as ideological rigidity or "no true Scotsman"-type thinking all you like, but without understanding and supporting labor rights, there is no reason for anyone to label themselves as liberal - especially when the "reasons" given to support the anti-labor opinion are little more than baseless assertions that come out of right-wing think tanks.

            "There was no such thing as a "wealthy" hunter-gatherer. It is the creation of human society that has allowed the wealthy to become wealthy. As such, they have an obligation to pay a bit more to sustain that society than the not-so-wealthy." - Me

            by Darth Stateworker on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 07:14:55 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  But your side lost. (0+ / 0-)

              Again, the evidence in court proved differently and your side lost.

              •  Not in the manner you think it did. (0+ / 0-)

                As I said elsewhere:

                The judge didn't state or imply it was a binary, all or nothing issue.

                Unlike how you keep portraying it.

                "There was no such thing as a "wealthy" hunter-gatherer. It is the creation of human society that has allowed the wealthy to become wealthy. As such, they have an obligation to pay a bit more to sustain that society than the not-so-wealthy." - Me

                by Darth Stateworker on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 10:24:55 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  Boodaddy, Darth Governmentworker can (0+ / 0-)

            get really pouty and become unhinged at times. Don't take it personal. But be careful, because he will HR you while he is debating you. tsk tsk tsk.

            New Republic: So are the left-wing blogs as bad as the Tea Party ones in this case? -------------------------Chuck Schumer: Left-wing blogs are the mirror image. They just have less credibility and less clout.

            by AlexDrew on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 08:23:05 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  AlexDrew (0+ / 0-)

              Don't act butthurt because you've gotten a donut or two for posting rightwing nonsense.

              Just suck it up and move on with your life.

              Remember - I've also agreed with you from time to time - albeit rarely.

              "There was no such thing as a "wealthy" hunter-gatherer. It is the creation of human society that has allowed the wealthy to become wealthy. As such, they have an obligation to pay a bit more to sustain that society than the not-so-wealthy." - Me

              by Darth Stateworker on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 11:00:40 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  You are giving the HR's too much credit. (0+ / 0-)

                I actually like them. That means you lost the debate.

                •  In your case (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  cville townie

                  it means you brought up another blatantly false right wing talking point in violation of the site rules:

                  Do not troll rate people for expressing a contrary opinion, so long as it is expressed in a civilized fashion. The exceptions are for conservative talking points or debunked or false information; this isn't a site for conservatives, they have entire swaths of the internet in which they can regale each other with their reality-impaired fantasies.
                  This is something you all too commonly do, and I, for one, will hold your feet to the fire over that even if others let it slide.  I have no patience for ignorance.

                  But I digress.

                  "There was no such thing as a "wealthy" hunter-gatherer. It is the creation of human society that has allowed the wealthy to become wealthy. As such, they have an obligation to pay a bit more to sustain that society than the not-so-wealthy." - Me

                  by Darth Stateworker on Wed Jun 11, 2014 at 11:22:02 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

          •  Personal insults are not okay here (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            cville townie

            Surely you had a more convincing argument in you.

            Fry, don't be a hero! It's not covered by our health plan!

            by elfling on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 10:34:31 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  I don't support it--I think it's idiotic. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        AlexDrew, cap76, Justanothernyer

        The actual legal basis of the suit is transparent nonsense.  How, then, did it succeed, at least initially?  Because the core of your comments is true: everyone who has children in public schools recognizes that bad teachers are at zero risk of being removed under the current conception of tenure.  The law gets trampled when selfish interests make common cause with genuine public revulsion and that's what we are seeing here.

        It's not the side effects of the cocaine/I'm thinking that it must be love

        by Rich in PA on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 06:28:16 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Nonsense over and over again. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ladybug53, elfling

          Where is the statistical evidence that schools try to fire bad teachers and fail?  Where is the evidence that in these attempts to fire these bad teachers, the administrators actually put on a solid case?

          You - everyone like you, and even the judge that handed down this decision - rely on little more than hearsay from the anti-teacher echo chamber to form your opinions.  That's it, end of story.

          No one would disagree - even people that support tenure - that the process for firing a teacher is generally long and costly and could be improved.  So instead of thinking about it in a conservative style, pathetically obtuse "us versus them" manner, try thinking about it logically.  If you feel the process is broken, where specifically is the process broken and what can be done to change that?

          Long wait times to appear before an arbitrator?  Hire more of them.

          No one wants to work as an arbitrator so you can't hire more of them?  Pay them better.

          Administrators have trouble meeting the burden of proof in front of an arbitrator?  Give them more training on documenting poor performance and the labor relations process in general.  And lets face it - arbitration is generally based on a legal standard of a preponderance of evidence, which means the burden of proof is as thin as it can be in the first place, so administrators that repeatedly fail to meet that burden - they're either untrained, inept, just plain lazy, or have a history of bringing bullshit disciplinary actions.

          The idea that due process in and of itself is somehow problematic is asinine and downright moronic.  Due process is a core American value for fucks sake.

          "There was no such thing as a "wealthy" hunter-gatherer. It is the creation of human society that has allowed the wealthy to become wealthy. As such, they have an obligation to pay a bit more to sustain that society than the not-so-wealthy." - Me

          by Darth Stateworker on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 06:53:54 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  I would change that to (0+ / 0-)

          Everyone fears that their kids will get a bad teacher who can't be removed.

          Fry, don't be a hero! It's not covered by our health plan!

          by elfling on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 10:47:59 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  The percentage of "bad teachers" is something like (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Darth Stateworker

        ONE PERCENT

        "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." --M. L. King "You can't fix stupid" --Ron White -6.00, -5.18

        by zenbassoon on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 10:07:09 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  There are some fixes that I think would be (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        zenbassoon, Darth Stateworker, Sylv

        valuable and useful. This decision, and this court case, will be obstacles to that rather than facilitate good decisions.

        These people want decisions of teacher goodness to be made not based on the anecdotes people have listed here - say a teacher who belittled a student  - but based on test scores. And the sad fact is that this worship of test scores - on tests that were in no way designed to measure teachers - may make some of the bad teachers that everyone has in their anecdotal memory banks HARDER to fire. Because "belittled a student" isn't on the bubble test, just like "stayed after school to help a kid every day for weeks" isn't.

        Fry, don't be a hero! It's not covered by our health plan!

        by elfling on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 10:28:52 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Some courts have ruled that the reason... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Teiresias70

    ...it's okay to underpay teachers is because tenure has significant value.

  •  Plaintiffs are supported by Students Matter. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Boodaddy, AlexDrew, cap76

    Students Matter is supported by the Oakland Alliance of Black Educators

    OABE has engaged people involved with both sides of the case, and has hosted forums where community organizations could hear directly from the California Teachers Association and the firm representing the plaintiffs (Gibson, Dunn & Crutcher).  We considered the insights gained from those conversations alongside the personal and professional experiences within our organization. After six months of research, analysis, and debate, OABE’s Executive Council unanimously voted to accept the recommendation of its endorsement committee - See more at: http://studentsmatter.org/...
    Not only does OABE endorse the plaintiffs’ position that these statutes be struck down because their impact violates the rights of children as articulated within California’s Constitution, but we encourage all interest groups to “stand down” from the constant state of impermeably vigilant and aggressive protectionism that stifles healthy communication and, rooted in fear, obscures common sense.
    •  But..But...it's about "due process" or whatever. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Rich in PA, cap76

      The "due process" argument is complete bullshit.

      Poor and minority students have been stuck with incompetent teachers being redirected to our schools for decades. Our community tired of tenure being used to keep bad teachers at their jobs. I'm for due process but this isn't the goal of the teacher's unions. Their goal is to hold on to as many benefits as possible.

      Now, I understand the ideals of wanting to stay strong and relevant. It's important that there should be rights and a balance. However, there needs to be give and take in the process. By holding on to a current construct where incompetent people are allowed to ignore and neglect minority children is outrageous.

      My children and other folks children shouldn't be collateral damage for this.

      •  No. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ladybug53, zenbassoon

        The idea that bad teachers can't be fired because of tenure is bullshit.

        Due process in employment is, in many ways, just like due process in the courts.  The prosecutor (the employer) has to make their case to the judge and/or jury (the arbitrator or administrative law judge).

        When bad teachers don't get fired, it's because the administrator either didn't have a case or was too lazy to properly document and pursue the case, period - just as would happen in a courtroom with a lazy prosecutor.

        Tenure -  contrary to the charges in this suit - has nothing to do with keeping bad teachers in classrooms in poor districts.  Period.

        As far as your comments on teachers unions themselves - they're practically ripped right off the pages of RedState.  Yes, teachers unions exist to "hold on to as many benefits as possible" - but that's collective bargaining, that's the primary reason for existing for any union, and there's nothing nefarious about that, contrary to the tone that seems implied by your comment.  But if you think that's the only reason why teachers unions exist or are useful, well, I apologize for putting it this way, but you're a bit obtuse.

        "There was no such thing as a "wealthy" hunter-gatherer. It is the creation of human society that has allowed the wealthy to become wealthy. As such, they have an obligation to pay a bit more to sustain that society than the not-so-wealthy." - Me

        by Darth Stateworker on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 06:04:58 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  No right back atyou. (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Boodaddy, AlexDrew, cap76, Justanothernyer

          It's not bullshit--it's the truth.  Bad teachers can't be fired, because of tenure.  

          It's not the side effects of the cocaine/I'm thinking that it must be love

          by Rich in PA on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 06:25:41 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Total unsupported assertion. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            ladybug53, zenbassoon

            Total bullshit.

            When bad teachers (or any employee with due process rights) don't get fired, it's due to lazy and/or inept administrators/managers.  That can be seen by anyone who's ever spent any time in front of an arbitrator or reviewed the decisions of arbitrators.

            There is nothing, nada, zero, zilch in documented evidence anywhere that supports the assertions that tenure (or due process) is responsible for keeping bad employees at jobs, which the exception of a bunch of assholes flapping their gums for years saying that it's true over and over again.

            Sorry, but the echo chamber isn't evidence.

            "There was no such thing as a "wealthy" hunter-gatherer. It is the creation of human society that has allowed the wealthy to become wealthy. As such, they have an obligation to pay a bit more to sustain that society than the not-so-wealthy." - Me

            by Darth Stateworker on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 06:33:24 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  It's true they don't. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              AlexDrew

              I experienced these bad teachers in my high school years. My wife who works in a disadvantaged school experiences it. Redirecting bad teachers is a fact. It's hard to get rid of them. There is documented evidence everywhere. Why don't inform yourself before just mouthing off. You don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

              Bad teachers hurt the good ones more than eliminating tenure.

              Thank God it's over.

              •  "There is documented evidence everywhere" (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                zenbassoon

                Show me some.

                These people are civil servants.  As such the decisions of arbitrators are public information in a great number of states.

                If there is overwhelming evidence that "bad teachers" simply skate by arbitrators, then by all means - drown me in a deluge of written decisions by arbitrators where the teacher clearly should have been fired due to egregious and outrageous behavior wasn't.

                This is the problem.

                For all the anecdotal stories about "I know a guy who knows a guy who said that this teacher they know didn't get fired", there should be mountains of clear, concise, documented evidence of all these horrible, evil, Satan-like teachers skating through an arbitration hearing again, and again, and again.

                But that volume evidence just doesn't exist.

                Sure, there are occasional news stories here or there about someone, somewhere, incredulously making it through an arbitration hearing without getting that axe when they clearly should have been.  How many of those do we see a year?  Enough to even be a statistical blip?  No.  It's quite literally a handful - in a nation with millions upon millions of teachers.

                What would prove the rhetorical point you people keep making is not that you can point to an outlier here or there occasionally.  It's that you could point to thousands - on demand - because it happens all the time.

                But you can't do that, because such volumes of evidence simply don't exist.

                You see, I'm a real liberal.  I deal with facts, data, statistics, and reality.  I look at problems from a mechanical perspective to see what parts are broken and what parts need to be fixed.

                I don't rant emotionally or irrationally that an entire system needs to be torn down because a decades long drumbeat from an echo chamber clearly funded by a bunch of assholes with questionable motives tells me I should.

                "There was no such thing as a "wealthy" hunter-gatherer. It is the creation of human society that has allowed the wealthy to become wealthy. As such, they have an obligation to pay a bit more to sustain that society than the not-so-wealthy." - Me

                by Darth Stateworker on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 07:07:04 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Says you. But your side lost in liberal Cali. (0+ / 0-)

                  I have lots of data and real life empirical experiences that trump your normative pie sky beliefs. Go look up it yourself. I'm not your research department.

                  Go ask people in minority communities of what they think of tenure and keeping bad teachers in their schools. More often than not they don't support tenure on the basis of how it has affected their children.

                  There is a very good reason why many parents in poor and minority communities are celebrating this win. It isn't just conservatives.

                  Go ahead and keep making the same racist and elitist ideals that many white liberals want our children to live with to protect some bullshit construct.

                  You LOST.

                  •  You keep talking about all the evidence there is. (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    zenbassoon, elfling

                    And presenting none.  Just a bunch of assertions that there is evidence.  Somewhere.

                    This is exactly how people make arguments when their arguments are unsupported by fact.

                    I rest my case on this point.

                    Look, no one would take any issue with anyone stating that the tenure system could be improved.  As I said above - let's look at the mechanical issues and see what can be done.

                    In many cases, does it take months or years to fire a teacher with tenure?  Yes.

                    How do you fix that?  By being reactionary and throwing the entire system out?  Or by looking to see what the root causes of those delays are and trying to improve them by addressing the causes?

                    This is what incenses me about the arguments you folks are making.  There is plenty of ground out there in between "Tenure is great, don't change it at all! and "Tenure blows!  Kill it completely!"  You are all naively or obtusely thinking the issue us binary, when the issue is far from binary.

                    Even the judges ruling doesn't seem to reflect he thinks it's as binary as you folks do, because he states that the legislature needs to fix the issues from what I've read.  This is a pretty good indication that he understands that there's plenty of room between status quo and no tenure.

                    The key to being a liberal is not being an arsonist that burns everything down when a well intention system doesn't function as intended.  Would you advocate ending the VA because of all the problems there currently?  How about abolishing Congress because it's completely ineffective currently?  See the point?  There is no need for absolutist thought on tenure being an all-or-nothing equation.  If you think the system is broken - do something productive and suggest appropriate fixes to the items that cause the system to break, just as you'd do on any other issue.

                    "There was no such thing as a "wealthy" hunter-gatherer. It is the creation of human society that has allowed the wealthy to become wealthy. As such, they have an obligation to pay a bit more to sustain that society than the not-so-wealthy." - Me

                    by Darth Stateworker on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 08:41:37 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Again, your side lost. (0+ / 0-)

                      There is a reason why many in poor and minority communities are celebrating this win.

                      •  "Your side"? What are you, a right wing troll? (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Darth Stateworker, tmservo433

                        "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." --M. L. King "You can't fix stupid" --Ron White -6.00, -5.18

                        by zenbassoon on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 10:17:21 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  You are a zealot. (0+ / 0-)

                        Inflexible, unable to see your own folly, and convinced that this is an all-or-nothing, "my side versus their side" issue.

                        In effect, you've become the very kind of useful idiot you should be fighting against.

                        Here's your sign.

                        "There was no such thing as a "wealthy" hunter-gatherer. It is the creation of human society that has allowed the wealthy to become wealthy. As such, they have an obligation to pay a bit more to sustain that society than the not-so-wealthy." - Me

                        by Darth Stateworker on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 10:28:31 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                  •  Empirical Experiences? (3+ / 0-)

                    Yeah, that's called anecdotal data.

                    In regards to 'go ask minority communities'.. Minority Communities have schools that suffer not largely due to just teachers (although many, in fact a large majority in some of the worst districts use floating substitutes, who are not regulated by this in any way)

                    No, they are impacted because more upwardly mobile white families fled their districts, integration of students has moved backwards and as a result, students are coming to school with other students who have economic issues without peers who can work with them.

                    If you think just changing teachers there will fix that, you've got a big mountain of data I can site for you.

                    If you want data, I took plenty of time to talk to Julian Vasquez Heilig, Ph.D, University of Texas at Austin, the staff at UC Berkley and I took a long time to review the real data - the state returns on assessments comparing school performance on states with no due process or limited compared to those with.

                    http://www.dailykos.com/...

                    So, if you want to start quoting data, I have -mountains- of data, first person interviews, direct studies that I can start linking on actual results.

                    Do you know that if you removed Massachusetts from the US result pool and recognized it on it's own it would rank in the top 10 countries in the world for education K-12?  It's ranked least favorable by ALEC and others who hate Tenure.   So how does the most favorable state in the union toward ALEC's position of no Tenure Rank?   Louisiana ranks.. well, outside of the top 50, which are all the nations that are ranked because they are the only ones who have recognized scoring procedures.

                    Think about that.

                    Gandhi's Seven Sins: Wealth without work; Pleasure without conscience; Knowledge without character; Commerce without morality; Science without humanity; Worship without sacrifice; Politics without principle

                    by Chris Reeves on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 09:09:18 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Blah blah blah. You lost. (0+ / 0-)

                      There is a reason why many in poor and minority communities are celebrating this win. Our direct experiences and accounts do trump your theoretical musings. Teachers unions - among many other things - are the problem. We experience this. Our experiences with our children matter here. We are the people who have to live in these conditions.

                      That's the problem with people on both sides. People on both sides don't really care about the kids. They only care about protecting their territories. Fortunately, we side with our children and communities.

                      But keep believing and throwing condescension our way. We are winning this fight.

                      •  Having minority children (3+ / 0-)

                        Who are in special education, at least one, I sometimes wonder if you think it's entertaining to assert that you seemingly have the only fund of information from that perspective?

                        I've watched Kansas City Missouri school district take a beating up close and personal which is a real issue for students, especially minority students.

                        But seriously, if you believe that ending due process is the complete solution for that problem, then you are chasing rainbows.

                        People on both sides don't really care about the kids. They only care about protecting their territories.
                        Most of us have kids.  In school.   In Public Schools.  We are as invested as it gets.

                        Gandhi's Seven Sins: Wealth without work; Pleasure without conscience; Knowledge without character; Commerce without morality; Science without humanity; Worship without sacrifice; Politics without principle

                        by Chris Reeves on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 10:25:39 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  WHO is celebrating? You, maybe. Party of one. (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        tmservo433, Darth Stateworker

                        "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." --M. L. King "You can't fix stupid" --Ron White -6.00, -5.18

                        by zenbassoon on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 10:28:03 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                  •  PUT OUT THE DATA OR GET HR'D. My diary, my rules (0+ / 0-)

                    "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." --M. L. King "You can't fix stupid" --Ron White -6.00, -5.18

                    by zenbassoon on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 10:16:53 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  I don't think it's necessary to ask anyone (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Darth Stateworker

                    what they think of keeping bad teachers in schools. I think that's called begging the question.

                    Fry, don't be a hero! It's not covered by our health plan!

                    by elfling on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 11:06:09 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

          •  I've seen it done in my school. (5+ / 0-)

            A dedicated administrator made it a point to document poor performance and to call in outside observers to do so.  Two experienced teachers were gone when it was all over.  The rest of us were glad too.

            “It is the job of the artist to think outside the boundaries of permissible thought and dare say things that no one else will say."—Howard Zinn

            by musiclady on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 07:45:02 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I've also seen it done in my school. Got rid of (3+ / 0-)

              a particularly poor beginning teacher after 2 years. Got rid of a terrible teacher who'd taught many years. Got rid of a very poor special ed teacher. 3 different principals who did their jobs. After many other principals didn't even try.

              It's nothing to do with unions! It's to do with administrators.

              •  The teachers are to blame as well. (0+ / 0-)

                There is no one who gets to get off scott free and point fingers. This is a failure on many levels.

                •  It has been pointed out that there are people (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  elfling, Darth Stateworker

                  in all professions not suited to the work -- who need to be let go. In schools, that job goes to the principal, who gets paid a lot more money to do that job. If a poor teacher continues to be employed, it is the fault of the administration -- not the other teachers.

                  •  No, not true (0+ / 0-)

                    I've known administrators that are handcuffed by tenure. A bad teacher could miss long strings of days - and have many complaints against them by parents - and it basically takes way too long to remove incompetent people. Due process shouldn't be prolonged process. The people whose tax dollars pay for the expense should have the right to decide what's best for their children and communities period. You may not like it but it's our community and our right.

                    Tenure is part of a bigger problem that exists. Today, poor and minority families have proven in a court of law to fix it.

                    •  Again. PUT UP THE DATA. Raw numbers. (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      tmservo433, Darth Stateworker

                      Verifiable statistics. Enough of this "I know a person who knows a person who has a cousin" bullshit.

                      "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." --M. L. King "You can't fix stupid" --Ron White -6.00, -5.18

                      by zenbassoon on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 10:27:12 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  Bull. Fucking. Shit! (0+ / 0-)

                      Chronic, documented absenteeism is a fucking SLAM DUNK when it comes to arbitration and getting a disciplinary action to stick.

                      Even moreso because many labor agreements lay out specific offenses and penalties dealing with absenteeism.

                      For you to bring up absenteeism and this bullshit about an administrator telling you they could do nothing, now I know you are completely full of shit and trolling.  There are only two reasons why an administrator couldn't get a chronically absent teacher shitcanned:

                      1.  The teacher had legitimate, documented health problems - in which case the tenure functioned exactly as it should and protected the teachers job from an idiot administrator and/or vindictive parents like yourself;

                      Or

                      2.  The administrator was too fucking lazy or too fucking dumb to properly document the absenteeism, counsel the teacher on said absenteeism, and present a case to an arbitrator about said absenteeism.

                      Your story reeks of bullshit.

                      This is the only thing you've said of substance:

                      Due process shouldn't be prolonged process.
                      No, it shouldn't.  But who's fault is it when it is?  Does the teacher pick the arbitration date?  Or does the administration?

                      Buy a fucking clue.

                      "There was no such thing as a "wealthy" hunter-gatherer. It is the creation of human society that has allowed the wealthy to become wealthy. As such, they have an obligation to pay a bit more to sustain that society than the not-so-wealthy." - Me

                      by Darth Stateworker on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 10:49:06 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

          •  You're dead wrong (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Darth Stateworker

            I can't speak to the laws in Pennsylvania, but in California, it's absolutely possible.

            Fry, don't be a hero! It's not covered by our health plan!

            by elfling on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 11:03:18 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  BULL FUCKING SHIT. I teach in those areas. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Darth Stateworker

        It's the POVERTY, not the teachers. SHOW ME THE STATISTICS about all these supposed "bad teachers". SHOW ME THE NUMBERS.

        You know NOTHING about education and you display a PHENOMENAL ignorance of even the BASICS of policy.

        You make this claim, you damn well better back it up. I suggest you go HERE and HERE and get yourself some education

        "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." --M. L. King "You can't fix stupid" --Ron White -6.00, -5.18

        by zenbassoon on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 10:14:48 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Students Matter is run by (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Darth Stateworker, Sylv

      Silicon Valley entrepreneur David Welch and is heavily populated with anti-union, pro-privatization interests including Michelle Rhee.

      I recommend this earlier Daily Kos article:

      http://www.dailykos.com/...

      Nine children were named in the suit, but only half could count as underprivileged in any sense. One of the kids was the child of an employee at Rocketship Education, a chain charter school operator. Others were kids of real estate developers and investment bankers.

      http://crooksandliars.com/...

      What is an ineffective teacher?

      One of the more startling aspects of this case has been the way Students Matter (plaintiffs) has danced around the question of teacher effectiveness. Here is an example of the testimony offered to bolster their claims about "ineffective teachers:"

      “I know first-hand what kind of impact having an ineffective teacher can have,” said Raylene Monterroza, a 16-year-old high school junior who blames bad teachers in her Pasadena fifth-grade and ninth-grade classrooms for why she is now two years behind grade level in math. “I’ve had teachers that didn’t even show up to school, and when they’re at school, they don’t really care. They don’t teach anything at all.”
      Tuesday's testimony offered by the defense included Raylene's ninth-grade English teacher, called to rebut Monterroza's claims:

      Christine McLoughlin, an award-winning teacher at Blair Middle School in Pasadena, took the stand next. Earlier in the trial, one of the four student-plaintiffs who testified in the case, Raylene Monterroza, described difficulties she had with McLoughlin, her eighth-grade English teacher.

      Under questioning from Rothner, McLaughlin refuted almost everything Monterroza had said, testifying that she had given her students texts, that she had her students read novels, that the class had discussed short stories they read — all the opposite of what Monterroza had testified.

      When Rothner asked whether Raylene completed all of her homework, McLoughlin said, “No.” Rothner followed up by asking whether she believed that Raylene put forth her best efforts in her class. McLoughlin responded, “It was less than her best.”

      Fry, don't be a hero! It's not covered by our health plan!

      by elfling on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 11:00:56 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Rocketship? That's basically a cube farm school (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Darth Stateworker

        where kids sit in huge cube farms and the "teacher" is nothing more than a monitor making sure all the kids are working in their cubicles doing their electronic lessons.

        "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." --M. L. King "You can't fix stupid" --Ron White -6.00, -5.18

        by zenbassoon on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 11:24:29 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Only the desperate will apply (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    zenbassoon

    Only the desperate will apply and they will be gone as soon as anything better comes along.

  •  Fix this or strike. NOW. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    zenbassoon

    Teachers have got to stand together and send a message loud and clear to the anti-teacher bullies.

  •  We could just ban teachers' unions (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Darth Stateworker

    That will fix everything. Right?

    Procrastination: Hard work often pays off after time, but laziness always pays off now.

    by Linnaeus on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 05:47:34 PM PDT

  •  Pretty soon only pedophiles will apply to teach... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Darth Stateworker

    Pretty soon only pedophiles will apply to teach kids. Freedom!

  •  It sucks but it's comeuppance. (5+ / 0-)

    Everywhere and always, public school teacher unions have made it too difficult to get rid of bad teachers.  It's way beyond due process--it's impunity.  We can't act all surprised and indignant that one extreme begets another.

    It's not the side effects of the cocaine/I'm thinking that it must be love

    by Rich in PA on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 06:25:01 PM PDT

    •  My union worked collaboratively with the system (7+ / 0-)

      to develop a peer review evaluation system that has been nationally studied and found to be effective in supporting teachers who need help and getting rid of those who do not improve.

      Several other systems have used a similar approach.  You can read about it
      here.

      “It is the job of the artist to think outside the boundaries of permissible thought and dare say things that no one else will say."—Howard Zinn

      by musiclady on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 07:48:35 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Thank you! (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Justanothernyer

        I would hope that more union locals would see the difficult optic this issue is creating and work collaboratively with the administration and within their own ranks to try actions that would deflect these criticisms. If unions could proactively come out and show that they were policing their own, it would put an end to this pretty quickly.

        Unfortunately, I know that this is not what unions see as their roll. I see it again and again that the lazy admin types are the cause for all of this. I'm sure that's the case in many areas, but there are obvious problems, also.

        My first appointment was to a public institution that was just slightly selective. It was a good school, but it did become obvious that there were some serious faculty problems. There were a group of us that proposed that we proactively work with the administration to try to encourage some changes in the area. That didn't go over well as that was viewed as collaborating with the enemy at that time. I moved on in time and quality of institution. Today I'm at an extremely competitive place with top notch faculty. I'm sure there are most likely a few faculty members that will be wished "Happy Retirement" with a sigh of relief, but everyone I'm aware of is firing on all cylinders.

        However, even today I would be amenable to working with the administration to explore some type of tenure review or renewal mechanism - or perhaps some kind of requirements that must be met to maintain tenure. This is getting serious and problematic enough that if we don't work to better it ourselves, something that we don't like at all might be worked out for us. I'm sure I will be long retired before any real changes are either imposed or embraced, but I'm willing to start while it still might affect me in some slight ways. I'm not agitating to end tenure, but I don't see how the current situation will be allowed to continue indefinitely.

        As for the dreaded student reviews. I have found that for intro and lower level courses they can most certainly be a mixed bag. You can get some good ones, but I would agree that if you are easy and funny, you will get good reviews irrespective of what your students actually learn. However, when you get to the upper division courses and certainly graduate level courses, you begin to get quality evaluations that usually hit the mark and frequently offer excellent feedback.

        •  The irony is that Race to the Top rules (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Sylv, OrganicChemist

          may force our district to radically change our effective evaluation system.  This was brought to Arne Duncan's attention to which he replied, "It wasn't meant to be so inflexible."  Well, excuse me Sec. Duncan!  Why don't you fix that then!  It seems that policy makers should be studying what actually works instead of writing policy based on ideology.  I guess that's too much to expect.

          “It is the job of the artist to think outside the boundaries of permissible thought and dare say things that no one else will say."—Howard Zinn

          by musiclady on Wed Jun 11, 2014 at 05:35:00 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Read these comments: (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Darth Stateworker
       I've seen it done in my school. (2+ / 0-)

      A dedicated administrator made it a point to document poor performance and to call in outside observers to do so.  Two experienced teachers were gone when it was all over.  The rest of us were glad too.

      “It is the job of the artist to think outside the boundaries of permissible thought and dare say things that no one else will say."—Howard Zinn

      by musiclady on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 09:45:02 PM CDT

      [ Parent | Reply to this ] Recommend Hide

            I've also seen it done in my school. Got rid of (1+ / 0-)

          a particularly poor beginning teacher after 2 years. Got rid of a terrible teacher who'd taught many years. Got rid of a very poor special ed teacher. 3 different principals who did their jobs. After many other principals didn't even try.

          It's nothing to do with unions! It's to do with administrators.

          by ladybug53 on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 10:27:34 PM CDT

          [ Parent | Reply to this ] Recommend Hide

      If a COMPETENT administrator actually WORKED AT HIS JOB...

      STOP BASHING TEACHERS OR WE WILL BASH BACK

      "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." --M. L. King "You can't fix stupid" --Ron White -6.00, -5.18

      by zenbassoon on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 10:20:10 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  A lot of them do their jobs (0+ / 0-)

        It's very difficult to fire tenured teachers. The process is too long and cumbersome.

        Today, we're on the road to fix that issue. There is still more to be done across the board. That means administration, school boards and others. This is just one problem being dealt with across a great divide.

        •  It's SUPPOSED to be difficult. But if you have (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          tmservo433, Darth Stateworker

          all the documentation and everything is done properly, it's supposed to be easy.

          AND IT IS.

          Besides, THAT'S WHAT THE FIRST FEW YEARS WITHOUT TENURE ARE FOR.

          To wash out the ones that can't handle it.

          And regular observation--WHICH IS THE ADMINISTRATOR'S JOB--helps ensure that older teachers don't "mail it in", as it were.

          Besides, none of it matters anymore. It's all about test scores. That teacher you were bitching about? Will NEVER EVER get fired if the students get high scores on their standardized tests.

          Only if that teacher starts diddling will he get fired.

  •  If unions protecting bad teachers is the problem (5+ / 0-)

    Then we should see far superior educational outcomes in states that do not allow teachers to collectively bargain.

    Procrastination: Hard work often pays off after time, but laziness always pays off now.

    by Linnaeus on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 06:53:46 PM PDT

  •  The same people bitching about 'entitled kids' (5+ / 0-)

    are the same bozos who wanted to do away with tenure.

    I am a tenured college professor.

    Easiest way to better 'evaluations' and ensuring tenure => decrease the rigor and increase the GPA.  Which leads to 'entitled' graduates.  

    Geez, do these idiots EVER think about the unintended consequences of doing away with tenure?

    The doctor/lawyer analogy is utter, disingenuous tripe.

    Teachers have it increasingly difficult now and it's not as if it was a very attractive profession BEFORE all the political bullshit occurred.  Again, unintended consequence:

    Let's make teaching higher pressure WITHOUT higher compensation AND let's do away with teacher autonomy
    and make it less attractive for future potential teachers.

    Yeah, that'll learn 'em.

    Exactly how this makes education better is beyond me.  This is all about 'school choice' and the for-profit school sector.  

    Absolutely dumbfux.
     

    •  Really. (0+ / 0-)

      You are not owed and guaranteed a job. If you work at a public school, you are beholden to the citizens whose tax dollars pay you. If you work in any other business, you are subject to review and reasonable due process on performance.

      Here's a thought - Stop protecting bad teachers, diverting to schools in my neighborhood to protect them, and keeping a system that fosters it. Tenure is ridiculous.

      Keep calling us idiots though and thinking only about protecting yourselves. It's never about the kids for you tenured types. We'll just keep on winning these battles to end this unfair system for our children.

      •  More "Us versus Them" (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        tmservo433, zenbassoon

        class warfare nonsense.

        Just like the right wingers that hatched this anti-tenure campaign want people like you to do.

        /golfclap for continuing to be reactionary and gullible.

        "There was no such thing as a "wealthy" hunter-gatherer. It is the creation of human society that has allowed the wealthy to become wealthy. As such, they have an obligation to pay a bit more to sustain that society than the not-so-wealthy." - Me

        by Darth Stateworker on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 08:59:45 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  OK, say you win. What is you prize? A bunch of ... (4+ / 0-)

        OK, say you win. What is you prize? A bunch of beaten-down, desperate, minimum wage workers watching your precious darling all day. Sounds good to me.

      •  This is wrong. (4+ / 0-)

        It is easy to say the catch phrases.. and to say 'you are beholden to the taxpayers who pay you'.. but that is entirely wrong.

        In fact, that is the key reason why Due Process is necessary.

        Would you teach in a school district where, without due process you could be fired for handing out a book like Catcher in the Rye?   Or the Perks of Being a Wallflower?

        Would you want to be a teacher who faced termination because they taught Darwin without mentioning Intelligent Design?

        How about a teacher who risks being fired because they failed a student who was a star athlete?

        A teacher who advocates for additional funding or support for a disabled child in an IEP?  A school district  could save a lot of money firing that person and getting in a teacher who doesn't fight for a disabled child.

        No, the taxpayer in the end is NOT the boss of the teacher.   The teacher's employer is the child in front of them, and the society that child will create when they become a graduate.

        Are there bad teachers?  Yes.  And more should be done to work on how to handle that.   But a complete removal of due process is not a solution.  

        Gandhi's Seven Sins: Wealth without work; Pleasure without conscience; Knowledge without character; Commerce without morality; Science without humanity; Worship without sacrifice; Politics without principle

        by Chris Reeves on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 09:00:34 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  But they are and it's not wrong (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Justanothernyer

          It's the people's money that pays for this. That's a fact. You can skip around it all you like but that is what is at play here.
          Communities have the right to reject policies that they see hurts them. A court of law agreed with a group of minority students in liberal California on their complaint. They won.

          You can throw what if this is that but that wasn't the case that was settled here today.

          I care about my children and my rights as a parent in my community to rid my school of incompetent teachers. Due process should't be a prolonged and difficult process.

          •  Wrong on so many points. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            elfling, Darth Stateworker

            Like I said, we're just going to disagree.

            It's the people's money that pays for this. That's a fact. You can skip around it all you like but that is what is at play here.
            So, the people who pay (now) on a bond that extends in most cases (and in this case) for several decades have complete control over what their school teaches and how.  If you can answer that, I'd be appreciative.

            Then get back to me and tell me how that works out.

            Communities have the right to reject policies that they see hurts them. A court of law agreed with a group of minority students in liberal California on their complaint. They won.
            You keep bringing up Liberal California.   This didn't go to a ballot box.  It appeared before a judge.   It will likely be appealed (in fact, it absolutely will be appealed, and a stay has been issued:
            You can throw what if this is that but that wasn't the case that was settled here today.
            I throw what ifs because everything we do politically and socio-economically has impacts.  It is not as simple as "this is the result!  tomorrow we have much better schools because we fire a ton of people!"

            That's a drastic over-simplification that doesn't address real issues.

            Gandhi's Seven Sins: Wealth without work; Pleasure without conscience; Knowledge without character; Commerce without morality; Science without humanity; Worship without sacrifice; Politics without principle

            by Chris Reeves on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 11:02:51 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  A court ruled different. (0+ / 0-)

              You lost. I'm sure it will be appealed and I'm confident t will be upheld.

              An unfair system is going to be changed for folks who fought and won it so.

              And yes, my liberal state of California does make a huge difference. Keep dreaming if you really believe it doesn't.

      •  Here's what you're going to get in your (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Darth Stateworker

        precious schools. YOUR children will get Teach for a While SCABS who only get FIVE WEEKS of "training" before being thrown in front of YOUR CHILDREN and told to teach them.

        And what they will teach them is to FILL IN BUBBLES ON A STANDARDIZED TEST. No independent thought whatsoever.

        And IF--and that's a BIG if--they can handle it, they will stay for TWO years and be replaced by MORE Teach for a While SCABS.

        Is that what you want for YOUR CHILDREN?

        Have at it.

        Because that's what you're going to get with your support for this farce of a decision.

        "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." --M. L. King "You can't fix stupid" --Ron White -6.00, -5.18

        by zenbassoon on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 10:24:57 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Says you. (0+ / 0-)

          Poor and minority communities shouldn't have to accept incompetence as a trade off.

          I thought this is about the children. I guess not.

          •  Show me the PROOF of "imcompetence". (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Darth Stateworker

            Here's what I tell all right wing trolls:

            Don't go against me when it comes to education. I've been in the trenches and seen it, and done it, and KNOW it. From pedagogy to policy.

            You speak from ignorance, I speak from knowledge.

            •  Do your own research Sherlock. (0+ / 0-)

              There have been many stories and accounts of this. Hell, read this case. You know, the one we're talking about for proof.

              Give me links? Ha!

              Read the case and the ruling.

              •  Here you go: (3+ / 0-)

                   What is an ineffective teacher?

                    One of the more startling aspects of this case has been the way Students Matter (plaintiffs) has danced around the question of teacher effectiveness. Here is an example of the testimony offered to bolster their claims about "ineffective teachers:"

                        “I know first-hand what kind of impact having an ineffective teacher can have,” said Raylene Monterroza, a 16-year-old high school junior who blames bad teachers in her Pasadena fifth-grade and ninth-grade classrooms for why she is now two years behind grade level in math. “I’ve had teachers that didn’t even show up to school, and when they’re at school, they don’t really care. They don’t teach anything at all.”

                    Tuesday's testimony offered by the defense included Raylene's ninth-grade English teacher, called to rebut Monterroza's claims:

                    Christine McLoughlin, an award-winning teacher at Blair Middle School in Pasadena, took the stand next. Earlier in the trial, one of the four student-plaintiffs who testified in the case, Raylene Monterroza, described difficulties she had with McLoughlin, her eighth-grade English teacher.

                    Under questioning from Rothner, McLaughlin refuted almost everything Monterroza had said, testifying that she had given her students texts, that she had her students read novels, that the class had discussed short stories they read — all the opposite of what Monterroza had testified.

                    When Rothner asked whether Raylene completed all of her homework, McLoughlin said, “No.” Rothner followed up by asking whether she believed that Raylene put forth her best efforts in her class. McLoughlin responded, “It was less than her best.”

                "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." --M. L. King "You can't fix stupid" --Ron White -6.00, -5.18

                by zenbassoon on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 11:31:40 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  Your argument strategy: (0+ / 0-)

            "Poor!"

            "Minority!"

            "Liberal State!"

            "Unions!"

            ??????

            Press the "I win!" button.

            /facepalm

            If your district has legitimate issues, fine.  Bring them up -   individually - so we can help you address them.

            Dropping a bomb on tenure doesn't fix your problems.  Guaranteed.  If you think otherwise, you're incredibly naive.

            "There was no such thing as a "wealthy" hunter-gatherer. It is the creation of human society that has allowed the wealthy to become wealthy. As such, they have an obligation to pay a bit more to sustain that society than the not-so-wealthy." - Me

            by Darth Stateworker on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 11:15:29 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  That's why we have courts. C'mon man! (0+ / 0-)

              Bring them up. They did in court and won.

              Wow.

              Dude, you're hilarious.

              •  And you clearly (0+ / 0-)

                didn't actually read the decision and don't actually understand the court system.

                While you bitch about your kids education, I suggest you perhaps think about furthering your own.  Clearly you need it.

                "There was no such thing as a "wealthy" hunter-gatherer. It is the creation of human society that has allowed the wealthy to become wealthy. As such, they have an obligation to pay a bit more to sustain that society than the not-so-wealthy." - Me

                by Darth Stateworker on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 11:31:52 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I seem to know than you. (0+ / 0-)

                  Bring it up? Bwhahahahaha. I'm still laughing about that one.

                  The issue was argued in court and settled. It stayed and will be appealed. But the students and parents will win in the end. At the least, this should further a moment to get rid of this ridiculous system. Poor and minority students/parents - in many places - applaud this decision. They're not the first and won't be the last to challenge tenure and teacher's unions.

                  Changes are coming. You may not like it but it is.

                  •  Funny how it's the CORPORATIONS and the (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Darth Stateworker

                    KOCH FUNDED REPUBLICANS who are the ones going after Civil Servant Status and unions. Even here. This was all bankrolled by them. Hell NOT EVEN HALF of the "kids" were even minority. Or poor.

                    Astroturf from beginning to end.

                    As I suspect you are.

                    "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." --M. L. King "You can't fix stupid" --Ron White -6.00, -5.18

                    by zenbassoon on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 11:42:51 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Still forgetting about the kids huh? (0+ / 0-)

                      They brought the case and won. This is about them. Remember?

                      They beat a system they felt was unfair.

                      More insults and baseless accusations from you make you funnier by the minute.

                      •  They did no such thing. They did not file the case (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Darth Stateworker

                        They did not initiate the case.

                        The privatizers initiated it.

                        They needed some families to latch on to make it seem legitimate.

                        This is DOCUMENTED.

                        "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." --M. L. King "You can't fix stupid" --Ron White -6.00, -5.18

                        by zenbassoon on Wed Jun 11, 2014 at 12:04:08 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  No, it's about the kids. (0+ / 0-)

                          They testified in court and we're believed.

                          It's documented.

                          C'mon.

                          •  If you think this is (0+ / 0-)

                            "about the kids", I've got a bridge over the East River to sell you, and a really nice art-deco building put up by the Chrysler corporation.  All for a package deal that will cost you $10.

                            /facepalm

                            "There was no such thing as a "wealthy" hunter-gatherer. It is the creation of human society that has allowed the wealthy to become wealthy. As such, they have an obligation to pay a bit more to sustain that society than the not-so-wealthy." - Me

                            by Darth Stateworker on Wed Jun 11, 2014 at 12:33:51 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                  •  "The issue was argued in court and settled." (0+ / 0-)

                    O rly?

                    You think the trial court is the be-all-end-all?  You think the decision issued by the trial court agrees with you that this is a binary, black-and-white issue?

                    You need more education that I originally thought.

                    As far as "me not liking it" - I'm a completely non-vested party in this issue.  I'm not a teacher.  I'm not in California.  These changes don't do jack shit to affect me personally.

                    I'm just intelligent enough to know that the issue isn't binary and that anyone who thinks it is binary is basically a moron who will be burning their own educational system to the ground on account of some right-wing think tank turning them into useful idiots.

                    That you refuse to acknowledge in any way, shape, or form that there are many shade of gray in between "status quo" and "Fuck tenure!" means you're either clueless or a troll.  Take your pick.

                    "There was no such thing as a "wealthy" hunter-gatherer. It is the creation of human society that has allowed the wealthy to become wealthy. As such, they have an obligation to pay a bit more to sustain that society than the not-so-wealthy." - Me

                    by Darth Stateworker on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 11:43:11 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  It will be. That's what courts do. (0+ / 0-)

                      C'mon, they make decisions based on the arguments presented. Have fun watching the end of tenure. It didn't work for the best interest of these kids and their parents. They proved it in court. They are the issue and what really matters here.

                      It's about time this gets changed.

                      •  Be sure to come back (0+ / 0-)

                        when the humble pie gets served by the higher courts and/or the state legislature....

                        ...and they indeed acknowledge that it's more complex than the binary issue you think it is, either with a ruling or new legislation.

                        Obvious idiot is obvious.

                        "There was no such thing as a "wealthy" hunter-gatherer. It is the creation of human society that has allowed the wealthy to become wealthy. As such, they have an obligation to pay a bit more to sustain that society than the not-so-wealthy." - Me

                        by Darth Stateworker on Wed Jun 11, 2014 at 12:08:07 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  Really? "Based on the arguments"? (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        vitaminC

                        So Citizens United was "based on the arguments" and correct?

                        Killing the Voting Rights Act was "based on the arguments" and correct?

                        Killing Affirmative Action was "based on the arguments" and correct?

                        "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." --M. L. King "You can't fix stupid" --Ron White -6.00, -5.18

                        by zenbassoon on Wed Jun 11, 2014 at 12:16:15 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                  •  And you think it's so great? GO TO KANSAS OR (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    vitaminC, Darth Stateworker

                    NORTH CAROLINA if you think it's so fucking great.

                    Funny how I haven't heard you praise THEM for their educational systems. North Carolina doesn't allow collective bargaining and they're trying to get rid of tenure, Kansas just did it legislatively.

                    GO THERE.

                    "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." --M. L. King "You can't fix stupid" --Ron White -6.00, -5.18

                    by zenbassoon on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 11:44:33 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I don't care about NC or Kansas. (0+ / 0-)

                      And it's ridiculous for you to ask people like us to do so. We can only look at it from our communities perspective. They fought for the best interest of their community and won. That's their only responsibility period.

                      You go to NC or Kansas and fight that fight. Good luck.

                      •  You should. It's where California is headed (0+ / 0-)

                        if this decision stands.

                        "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." --M. L. King "You can't fix stupid" --Ron White -6.00, -5.18

                        by zenbassoon on Wed Jun 11, 2014 at 12:16:42 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  You should care about NC and KS. (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        zenbassoon

                        That's the direction you're headed.

                        "There was no such thing as a "wealthy" hunter-gatherer. It is the creation of human society that has allowed the wealthy to become wealthy. As such, they have an obligation to pay a bit more to sustain that society than the not-so-wealthy." - Me

                        by Darth Stateworker on Wed Jun 11, 2014 at 12:31:20 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

  •  Sorry, but (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    AlexDrew

    I have educators in the family  and we have seen the problem of not being able to get rid of ineffective teachers first hand.   Tenure was a  nice benefit back when teachers didn't make any money  but it was abused.   This profession can still attract quality people who like kids and like to teach and to work hard doing it,  especially if they won't get stuck with working with dregs that are just there for the paycheck and benefits.

  •  This video in Kansas tells you everything about (5+ / 0-)

    due process.

    A public school teacher.. a good one.. fired because they wouldn't give a passing grade to an athlete who hadn't earned it so he could play.

    Teachers in the end are not employed by a school board.  They aren't employed by the parents either.   A teacher is hired by the adults these students will become, a promise made to help create the generation of the future.

    When we undercut their ability to operate without undue pressure we remove a lot of what keeps schools working.  I'm all for helping to make firing 'bad' teachers easier.   But we have to also provide protection for good ones against unfair standards, pressure to teach (or not teach) subject matter, etc.

    Do I want a teacher fired because they taught Darwin?
    No.
    Do I want a teacher fired because they refused to teach Intelligent Design?
    No.
    Do I want a teacher fired because they had students read a book some parents didn't like?
    No.

    Due Process.  

    Gandhi's Seven Sins: Wealth without work; Pleasure without conscience; Knowledge without character; Commerce without morality; Science without humanity; Worship without sacrifice; Politics without principle

    by Chris Reeves on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 07:46:31 PM PDT

    •  This didn't happen in this case. (0+ / 0-)

      Thanks for trying to divert attention to the students in California who won their case for accountability today.

      •  You can't have one without the other. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        zenbassoon, Darth Stateworker

        That's the reality.  The moment you remove due process, you do it all the way around.   While you supposedly solve some issues you create a bunch of new ones.

        That's what I'm saying.   Wait until we see what problems we've just created.

        Gandhi's Seven Sins: Wealth without work; Pleasure without conscience; Knowledge without character; Commerce without morality; Science without humanity; Worship without sacrifice; Politics without principle

        by Chris Reeves on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 08:55:28 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Nonsense. (0+ / 0-)

          This case was about poor and minority students in liberal California being saddled with incompetent teachers to protect a system that hurts them period.

          We're not in Kansas. You can't and have no right to ask poor and minority families to live with a system that harms their children because of loons somewhere else.

          •  Instead of reason, you're just ranting now. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Darth Stateworker, elfling

            Again, if you see some of my responses elsewhere, since my kids represent a minority (African American/Chinese) I'm not immune to that (1) and (2) I've worked with some of the most problematic school districts in the country, KCMO..

            You're contention is that in order to solve one problem, you are willing to toss everything.. no real compromise, just make it so everyone can be fired with no cause statement ala due process.

            We're just going to disagree.   I do believe that there are 'bad teachers'.  Seen it, been apart of it.   But no matter where you are in the country, you aren't going to attract great teachers by telling them they have no support system to keep a job in the face of angry parents or other issues which may or may not really be related to in-class performance.  

            Gandhi's Seven Sins: Wealth without work; Pleasure without conscience; Knowledge without character; Commerce without morality; Science without humanity; Worship without sacrifice; Politics without principle

            by Chris Reeves on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 10:49:49 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  You're asking for a horrible tradeoff. (0+ / 0-)

              You have no right to ask poor and minority parents - who already lack many resources - to protect a system that harms their children.

              There is a lot wrong with the current system. But you can't ask the folks affected by that bad system to ignore problems because it will change something that's favorable to one party. All the problem need attention and need repair.

              Again, I'm for due process but not one that's difficult to conduct in a reasonable manner. Bad teachers not only hurt students but good teachers. Why? Because the bad ones make it difficult for parents to make the system better for the good ones.

              •  Again, you keep bringing up minority students (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Darth Stateworker, elfling

                And as I keep pointing out: you're talking about my kids too.  I realize you think this gives you a card to play and that everyone arguing against you is rich and white.. but that simply isn't the case.

                The problem is you keep holding out the idea that being able to fire people quickly will create instantly better schools.

                That is simply not the case.

                Gandhi's Seven Sins: Wealth without work; Pleasure without conscience; Knowledge without character; Commerce without morality; Science without humanity; Worship without sacrifice; Politics without principle

                by Chris Reeves on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 11:05:26 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  That's not being asked. (0+ / 0-)

                  The right to fire incompetent teachers in a fairer way is what is being asked here.

                  I'm not playing any cards here. I'm not projecting that everyone is rich and white. But it hasn't escaped me that many white liberals have been the biggest ones who wish to protect this system.

                  There are a lot of black and brown faces that are just like me. We no longer wish to prop up the section of a system that has harmed our children. Incompetence shouldn't be tolerated at any level.

                  •  You seem to think... (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Darth Stateworker

                    That the only teachers who will ever be fired will be the ones you deem incompetent.

                    I've pointed out repeatedly that you're also going to see a lot of good teachers fired - or feel at risk of termination, which you dismiss.

                    If you believe the system has harmed your children - and I believe there are many school districts that are not doing well and need help, then again, explain to me exactly how termination without cause instantly improves them and provides them better teachers instead of short-term scabs at low money.

                    Gandhi's Seven Sins: Wealth without work; Pleasure without conscience; Knowledge without character; Commerce without morality; Science without humanity; Worship without sacrifice; Politics without principle

                    by Chris Reeves on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 11:23:01 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  It's not the system. It's the POVERTY. (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    tmservo433, Darth Stateworker

                    Read about one of the so-called "incompetent teachers" in this case:

                       What is an ineffective teacher?

                        One of the more startling aspects of this case has been the way Students Matter (plaintiffs) has danced around the question of teacher effectiveness. Here is an example of the testimony offered to bolster their claims about "ineffective teachers:"

                            “I know first-hand what kind of impact having an ineffective teacher can have,” said Raylene Monterroza, a 16-year-old high school junior who blames bad teachers in her Pasadena fifth-grade and ninth-grade classrooms for why she is now two years behind grade level in math. “I’ve had teachers that didn’t even show up to school, and when they’re at school, they don’t really care. They don’t teach anything at all.”

                        Tuesday's testimony offered by the defense included Raylene's ninth-grade English teacher, called to rebut Monterroza's claims:

                        Christine McLoughlin, an award-winning teacher at Blair Middle School in Pasadena, took the stand next. Earlier in the trial, one of the four student-plaintiffs who testified in the case, Raylene Monterroza, described difficulties she had with McLoughlin, her eighth-grade English teacher.

                        Under questioning from Rothner, McLaughlin refuted almost everything Monterroza had said, testifying that she had given her students texts, that she had her students read novels, that the class had discussed short stories they read — all the opposite of what Monterroza had testified.

                        When Rothner asked whether Raylene completed all of her homework, McLoughlin said, “No.” Rothner followed up by asking whether she believed that Raylene put forth her best efforts in her class. McLoughlin responded, “It was less than her best.”

                    Read that and TELL ME that this was a serious suit about REAL issues and not an astroturfed made up scheme by right wing corporatists to take advantage of a minority community to try to bust unions and destroy public education.

                    "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." --M. L. King "You can't fix stupid" --Ron White -6.00, -5.18

                    by zenbassoon on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 11:30:37 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  And yet, your side still lost. (0+ / 0-)

                      Arguments were made in court, there was a ruling, and your side still lost period. The parents and students were ruled to have more credibility over the teachers. Both sides were heard on this and the ruling went the students way.

                      I know exactly what Ms. Monterroza experienced. The neglect is real. I experienced the same type of neglect when I was in school. Bad teachers who assigned little or no homework, were always late, and abusive to students. But yet, your side still believes the teacher because the teacher says so. Not the minority student who brought the complaint and had the experience. What does the poor brown student know, right? I mean, the teacher is pure and has no stake in the matter. Oh wait.

                      •  When the teacher is a National Teacher of the Year (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Darth Stateworker

                        She is NOT "incompetent".

                        This kid was bitching because she got a bad grade.

                        "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." --M. L. King "You can't fix stupid" --Ron White -6.00, -5.18

                        by zenbassoon on Wed Jun 11, 2014 at 12:06:08 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  And yet, she wasn't believed over the brown kids. (0+ / 0-)

                          Keep throwing your elitism around and I'm sure you'll find a happy place somewhere. I never said the teacher of the year is incompetent. Now, you're grasping for a lifeboat.

                          The kids made their argument and won period.

                          Change is coming. Thank God or the force of your choice.

                          •  You did. By implying that these kids that (0+ / 0-)

                            testified all testified about incompetent teachers. Well, one was a National Teacher of the Year.

                            NOT incompetent.

                            She was "believed" because this was a POLITICAL decision.

                            Judges do that, you know.

                            Especially right wing judges.

                            "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." --M. L. King "You can't fix stupid" --Ron White -6.00, -5.18

                            by zenbassoon on Wed Jun 11, 2014 at 12:20:17 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

              •  It's not the system. IT'S THE POVERTY. (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                tmservo433, Darth Stateworker

                Let's get that straight from the get go.

                •  That's part of it. (0+ / 0-)

                  Are you now going to use that tired racist playbook that we're just not capable too? Your type of argument always seem to drift there.

                  And they say liberals are so open minded.

                  •  This is the SAME SYSTEM that put a MAN ON THE MOON (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Darth Stateworker

                    It's not broken. It's the POVERTY. Fix the poverty, fix the problem.

                    "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." --M. L. King "You can't fix stupid" --Ron White -6.00, -5.18

                    by zenbassoon on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 11:38:24 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  And get rid of incompetent teachers. (0+ / 0-)

                      We're 1 for 2 today. Yah!

                      •  Fine. You think teachers are so incompetent? (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        vitaminC, Darth Stateworker

                        You put YOUR ass in front of those kids and see how well you do?

                        No?

                        Then SHUT. THE. FUCK. UP. ABOUT. SHIT. YOU. KNOW. NOTHING. ABOUT.

                        My diary, my rules. Put up your data or get out of my diary. I will have this enforced.

                        Right wing trolls have no place here. I've been tolerant long enough.

                        "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." --M. L. King "You can't fix stupid" --Ron White -6.00, -5.18

                        by zenbassoon on Wed Jun 11, 2014 at 12:10:32 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  I know more than you think (0+ / 0-)

                          All you doing now is mouthing foolishness. But when you lost, I guess it's time to take your ball and go home. Calling me names with threats - like they do on Red State - is what teabaggers do.

                          Data? Read the case and the ruling genius. There has been a ruling. Your side lost in liberal California. The game is up.

                          My diary, my rules. Put up your data or get out of my diary. I will have this enforced.

                          Wahhhhhh!

                          Good night.

                          Bwahahahahaha.

      •  One of the plaintiff students got a bad grade (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        tmservo433, Darth Stateworker

        but... she didn't turn in all her homework, according to testimony at the trial.

        Fry, don't be a hero! It's not covered by our health plan!

        by elfling on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 11:17:50 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  INCOMPETENCE!!!!!!!!! BAD TEACHER!!!!!!!!!!! (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Darth Stateworker

          "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." --M. L. King "You can't fix stupid" --Ron White -6.00, -5.18

          by zenbassoon on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 11:20:45 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  But they still won. (0+ / 0-)

          Now you guys are down to attacking children. Wow.

          •  Pointing out a student (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            vitaminC

            didn't do their homework and got a bad grade is "attacking children?"

            For fucks sake, in my day, a student who didn't do their homework and got bad grades because of it got punished by their parents.

            In todays world, too many parents tend to think their precious little snowflakes do no wrong - and take it out on the teachers when the student fucks up.  I've seen this myself first hand.  In fact, in my sons school, the teachers and the administrator were so scared shitless of taking any corrective action when my son started slacking on his homework I had to take the to task for being too lenient with him.  I had to convince them to give him detention for fucks sake - because other parents have beaten them down so badly with the bullshit that it's the teachers fault and the kids do no wrong, they're scared shitless.  I hear my next door neighbor bitching about having to go to the school and bring her "mommy claws" out all the time, and her kids are sniveling little spoiled snotbags.  EVERY TIME THEY GET IN TROUBLE, without fail, she's bitching about the teachers.

            This is another example of exactly why teachers need tenure, and exactly why you have no idea what you're talking about.

            "There was no such thing as a "wealthy" hunter-gatherer. It is the creation of human society that has allowed the wealthy to become wealthy. As such, they have an obligation to pay a bit more to sustain that society than the not-so-wealthy." - Me

            by Darth Stateworker on Wed Jun 11, 2014 at 12:26:34 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  And you think this won't be abused by unethical... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Darth Stateworker

    And you think this won't be abused by unethical administrators? Your faith in (upper-management) humanity is touching.

    •  We don't know that. (0+ / 0-)

      But I do know that communities like mine no longer have to accept incompetence to protect an unfair system.

      •  And what about incompetent administrators? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        vitaminC, Darth Stateworker

        They're the ones who hire and fire the teachers. They'll fire the good teachers they hate--because good teachers speak up when something's wrong--and keep the bad teachers who suck up to them.

        You don't think it will happen?

        I'VE WATCHED IT HAPPEN.

        Take your kids to North Carolina or Kansas or Tennessee and see what happens.

        They're right wing enough to suit you.

        And there's NOTHING AT ALL you can do about incompetent administration.

        NOTHING. AT. ALL.

        They will KEEP those incompetent teachers who suck up to them and you will be WORSE OFF than you were before.

        "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." --M. L. King "You can't fix stupid" --Ron White -6.00, -5.18

        by zenbassoon on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 11:19:35 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Exactly. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          tmservo433

          All this "Tenure sucks, we won!  Eat shit and die teachers!  Blah blah blah!" nonsense coming from this one indicates he/she has NO CLUE how shitty the educations are in states without unions and without tenure.

          Perhaps he/she should try Kansas.  The Koches and other anti-labor/anti-teacher/anti-education assholes like the ones who financed this suit have already essentially dismantled education there completely, so it should be just what he/she is looking for.

          "There was no such thing as a "wealthy" hunter-gatherer. It is the creation of human society that has allowed the wealthy to become wealthy. As such, they have an obligation to pay a bit more to sustain that society than the not-so-wealthy." - Me

          by Darth Stateworker on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 11:35:57 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Better than Kansas--North Carolina. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Darth Stateworker, tmservo433

            The horror stories I've heard from there...

            "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." --M. L. King "You can't fix stupid" --Ron White -6.00, -5.18

            by zenbassoon on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 11:39:04 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Same legislation (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Darth Stateworker

              Literally exact same legislation, most of it drafted by KS attorney general (lead ALEC drafter) Kris Kobach.  He wrote both plans.  They are close... slightly different.  The new KS one is juts North Carolina 2.0... we have no idea how it will turn out, next year is the first year.

              Gandhi's Seven Sins: Wealth without work; Pleasure without conscience; Knowledge without character; Commerce without morality; Science without humanity; Worship without sacrifice; Politics without principle

              by Chris Reeves on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 11:46:01 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I live in Indiana, where now all you need is a (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                tmservo433

                degree and a passing grade on a test and you too can stand up in front of a class and teach.

                "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." --M. L. King "You can't fix stupid" --Ron White -6.00, -5.18

                by zenbassoon on Wed Jun 11, 2014 at 12:12:40 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  Tell me about it. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Darth Stateworker

            I've spent the last six months knee deep in Kansas education policy.

            As a non-educator (though they keep trying to push me to go back and get a Masters just to have it) my eyeballs are overrun.

            There are so many just bad assumptions about why tenure matters to K-12 here.. I mean, just BAD assumptions.  

            You can't equate teaching to another job or building cars..

            Cars don't come in sick in the morning or malnourished.

            Teachers students change every year, and so do parents and they have no control over the product they receive.

            Teachers have to deal with parents who may not like their cirriculum for whatever reason: Anti-Science whether it's global warming or darwin.. anti-history if it's not told their way, anti-sex ed, anti-book that an english teacher wants, anti-theater, anti-art and so on.

            Special ed teachers have to deal with IEPs and sometimes arguing against administration desires to get what is needed for a student.

            Teachers at times have to be prepared to argue against parents, when a child is being mistreated, abused or just neglected.

            Teachers have to argue against administration to get help for students who may need it, from recommending screening for disabilities (from dyslexia to autism to speech impediments) despite costs.

            Teachers have to deal with communities that may want a kid to be a star in a sport but hasn't earned the grade to play.

            Teachers have to deal with administrators that may want social promotion they don't want.

            If you cut the ability of teachers to argue for these things, you aren't helping your community.   If you think Tenure in California is too strict work to make it less so, setup a review panel or propose alternatives (there are actually several good ones that unions have experimented with)  but saying: we'll make your employment at-will... good luck finding a teacher who is prepared to take on many of those issues in that environment with no guarantee they stay employed afterward.

            Gandhi's Seven Sins: Wealth without work; Pleasure without conscience; Knowledge without character; Commerce without morality; Science without humanity; Worship without sacrifice; Politics without principle

            by Chris Reeves on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 11:42:47 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Dealing with KS? (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              tmservo433

              Ick.  Good luck!  I'd be tearing my hair out, or at least my New York attitude would cause me to scream a string of profanities that would make it into the Guinness Book of World Records as the most profane thing ever uttered by mankind....

              "There was no such thing as a "wealthy" hunter-gatherer. It is the creation of human society that has allowed the wealthy to become wealthy. As such, they have an obligation to pay a bit more to sustain that society than the not-so-wealthy." - Me

              by Darth Stateworker on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 11:48:47 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Camped out.. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Darth Stateworker

                In the state house when they tried to ram-through their ALEC education policy.. which not only ended Due Process but it ended the requirement to have a teaching certificate. :(

                http://www.dailykos.com/...

                http://www.dailykos.com/...

                Very proud of how those two came out.

                I just don't think people get the realities of this because they don't think deeply enough about how this would really play out

                Gandhi's Seven Sins: Wealth without work; Pleasure without conscience; Knowledge without character; Commerce without morality; Science without humanity; Worship without sacrifice; Politics without principle

                by Chris Reeves on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 11:51:25 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  That about sums it up. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  tmservo433

                  They don't play the game out to the point where the checkmate occurs, and they either fail to see it has already happened elsewhere or refuse to acknowledge it.  They don't see that the end result of a teacher that has no job protections will be a teacher that might not be able to provide the best possible education, and might end up being forced to teach their child nothing but creationism or risk losing their job.

                  In practically every fight against public sector employees, it largely boils down to pitting the middle class, college educated civil servants in the workforce against the working class - and getting the working class riled up because the civil servants "have something you don't have."

                  That's why tenure is such an easy target.  How many of these folks in these poorer communities have any kind of protections at their jobs?  How many of them understand the how or why of those protections since they never have had them themselves?  It's very easy to simply turn it into a hotbutton wedge issue.

                  At that point, it no longer becomes about the mechanics - or the hows and whys of why such a thing is needed.  It simply becomes a mob mentality where people who have every right to be pissed off have their anger stoked and then misdirected at those that aren't the cause of their issues, and are in fact, trying to help them.

                  They get played in the very same way the Tea Partiers get played, using the very same strategies.  And they don't even know it.

                  Teachers, Firefighters, Cops, Sanitation Workers, ad nauseum - this strategy is popping up just about everywhere against anyone that happens to be a civil servant.  The more it gets used, the more effective it becomes, and the more effective it becomes, the more it gets used.

                  It will not become ineffective until the economy significantly improves and people in general feel their lot in life has gotten better.  Until then, it will remain easy for the agitators on the right to keep inciting these intra-class wars and keep us fighting amongst ourselves.

                  "There was no such thing as a "wealthy" hunter-gatherer. It is the creation of human society that has allowed the wealthy to become wealthy. As such, they have an obligation to pay a bit more to sustain that society than the not-so-wealthy." - Me

                  by Darth Stateworker on Wed Jun 11, 2014 at 12:04:52 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

        •  There are those too. (0+ / 0-)

          However, to ask to keep a system that's unfair because they are bad too is silly.

          Changes are coming. Time is up for bad policies at many levels.

          •  I have a feeling (0+ / 0-)

            you wouldn't know bad public policy if it came up and whacked you upside the head.

            But like most who don't know the difference between good, effective public policy and bad public policy, you'll figure it out after you get done burning everything down - and than nothing works for shit.

            The epiphany always comes after the public policy arsonists get done with their work.  Your "Oh shit" moment will come.

            "There was no such thing as a "wealthy" hunter-gatherer. It is the creation of human society that has allowed the wealthy to become wealthy. As such, they have an obligation to pay a bit more to sustain that society than the not-so-wealthy." - Me

            by Darth Stateworker on Wed Jun 11, 2014 at 12:17:30 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Some people just want to watch the world burn. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Darth Stateworker

              "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." --M. L. King "You can't fix stupid" --Ron White -6.00, -5.18

              by zenbassoon on Wed Jun 11, 2014 at 12:21:06 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Essentially - yep. (0+ / 0-)

                This guys attitude is essentially just that.

                "I'm pissed off so fuck everybody!" about sums it up.

                "There was no such thing as a "wealthy" hunter-gatherer. It is the creation of human society that has allowed the wealthy to become wealthy. As such, they have an obligation to pay a bit more to sustain that society than the not-so-wealthy." - Me

                by Darth Stateworker on Wed Jun 11, 2014 at 12:44:53 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

  •  The road to hell is paved with good intentions.... (4+ / 0-)

    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. People who mean well (helping poor kids) are being used by corporate shills to break unions,fire teachers, and privatize schools for corporate profit. Making the education profession less attractive will garner fewer top-notch teachers, not more. If you are ignorant enough not to to see plummeting enrollment in schools of education and wide demoralization among our nation's teaching force, you will believe this ruling a positive one. It will go to to higher courts and hopefully wiser heads before we are through.

  •  Wow, the trolling here is off the charts. (0+ / 0-)

    Wow, the trolling here is off the charts.

  •  No! Unbelievable! They will be like everyone else. (0+ / 0-)

    No! Unbelievable! They will be like everyone else.

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