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Originally published in Tikkun Daily

Growing up outside of Atlanta, I learned to crawl with Bob Dylan's "Only A Pawn In Their Game" as my soundtrack, anti-war posters hanging on the walls, beckoning me and my raw knees forward. I was weaned with the voice of Martin Luther King, Jr. reverberating down the narrow halls of my parents' apartment, formed my first words as though delivering a soliloquy on equality.

In first grade, I asked the teacher if the 'Indians' still celebrated Thanksgiving. When she asked why I wanted to know, I responded, "Because the people they ate with took their land," something I'd learned from an honest mother. During a Little League game, my father intervened when coaches tried to initiate a prayer circle, wanting us to give thanks in Jesus' name. He fiercely believed in the separation of church and, well, everything.

As an American Jew, I was mostly instilled with progressive values as a child. Rather, I was instilled with progressive, American values – particularly those which aligned with liberal, Jewish ones. A love of social justice, human rights, equality. A disdain for racism, fundamentalism, colonialism. Sure, I attended Hebrew school, but my scripture was more the Bill of Rights than the Torah, and my anthems came from hip-hop and rock, not the Book of Psalms (תהילים).

Despite this, my early love for progressivism was accompanied by a love for the State of Israel. As a short, Jewish kid who wanted to be an NBA star, I was naturally inclined to root for the underdog. And at synagogue, we were taught that Jews were the ultimate underdogs, miraculously surviving the Holocaust and a history of oppression to create a contemporary "light unto the nations" which fought with dogged determination against evil and had a cool flag. And I was taught that I was vulnerable, that there were people who wanted me dead, and that Israel was a safe haven, a beacon, a garden to which I could always escape.

Palestinians, accordingly, were portrayed as just one in a series of people who have risen up throughout history to destroy us, being painted as a caricature of evil. As a boy, I nodded and understood. Israel was not just good, it was necessary.

One Sunday morning, my parents dropped me off at our local, liberal synagogue for what was billed as the youth group's pancake breakfast. Once inside, we were surprisingly herded into a multi-purpose room and sharply ordered to sit against the walls by masked men carrying plastic assault rifles. Stale bread was thrown on the linoleum floor toward me and my friends, perplexed and unsure what the hell this was all about, but smart enough to know it was not actually a dangerous situation. Younger children started crying.

This is what the enemy is like, some teachers told us when it was over.

I nodded. We were the good ones.

--§--

As an adult, I've moved away from such naiveté while holding on to both my Zionist and progressive leanings, despite the growing struggle for coexistence between the two. And it's not as though I'm mildly informed about the region or mildly invested in Israel and my Jewishness. The opposite, in fact, is the case. I'm a Jewish studies teacher at a day school, yeshiva-educated with a master's degree from Hebrew University in Jerusalem. I've authored a memoir about my experience with terror and reconciliation, and write extensively about the region, often critiquing Israel from a progressive perspective while maintaining my desire for a two-state solution to the conflict.

As an adult, I've learned about the cleansing of Arab villages which took place from 1947-1949 to make way for the Jewish state. I've learned about the ongoing settlement enterprise, the appropriation and bifurcation of Palestinian lands. I've learned the horrors of Israel's decades-old occupation of the West Bank, about the suppression of basic human rights and the atrocities committed. I've studied Israel's use of indefinite detentions, home demolitions, restrictions on goods and movement, and the violence visited upon those being occupied.

I've learned that – and this is just one example of many – a Palestinian child has tragically been killed every three days for the past 14 years. That bears repeating, since such deaths are rarely, if ever, given any attention in America: Palestinian parents have had to bury a child every three days for the past 14 years.

Knowing all this, I've still held fast to my 'progressive Zionism,' hoping Israel could become that beacon of liberalism I was presented as a child, a beacon which never truly existed in the first place, despite the country's socialist roots. Why have I done so? For two reasons: 1) deep down, I still believe in the promise of Israel, and 2) I can't shake the notion that a Jewish state is absolutely necessary for our security.

Over the last decade, I've formed alliances with progressive Americans and the Israeli left, working in my own, small ways to try and move Israel away from those illegal, geopolitical policies causing so much suffering for Palestinians and undermining Israel's ability to not just thrive, but survive. All the while, I've watched the anti-war movement in Israel weaken, watched racism flourish and religious fundamentalism grow, watched Israel's government build settlements at a record pace and make clear it has little interest in peace.

These realities have forced me to consider the incongruity between my American-borne progressivism and my Zionism. They have forced me to admit, like Peter Beinart, that in order to continue supporting Israel as a Jewish state, with everything it continues to do, I must compromise my progressivism.

However, the mind-numbingly horrific events of the past week have forced me, for the first time, to wonder whether such compromising can be sustained.

--§--

What has happened? This: on June 12, three Israeli teenagers were kidnapped while hitchhiking in the West Bank by Palestinians belonging to a rogue branch of Hamas. I, along with friends and loved ones, worried they would become three more Jewish victims (added to the 1,100 killed since 2001) in an unending conflict, and watched closely as the Israeli military began combing the West Bank for them. Only, it soon became clear that soldiers weren't looking for them so much as collectively punishing Palestinians for the crime of a few people. Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu falsely blamed the kidnapping on Hamas – a move likely aimed at derailing the PA-Hamas unity government – and vowed they would "pay a heavy price." But it was Palestinian civilians who paid a heavy price as for weeks soldiers raided over 1,600 sites in the West Bank, indefinitely detained hundreds, and killed five Palestinians.

Israel placed a gag order on details surrounding the teens' abduction, and reports surfaced that Israeli officials knew the boys were dead, but wanted to justify ongoing military operations under the hope of bringing the boys back. (Alas, it seems such reports may have been accurate.)

And then, on June 30, the tragic news suddenly came: the three teens had been found dead. And just as suddenly, calls for blood and vengeance echoed from Israel, starting with Netanyahu, who turned a Chaim Bialik poem on its head by using it to call for blood:

In turn, calls for blood and revenge began echoing throughout Israel and on social media, with a Facebook page dedicated to such calls quickly receiving 35,000 likes. It featured soldiers posing with weapons, asking for permission to kill, along with countless Israelis calling for revenge:
hate2
On the left, Israelis hold a sign that reads,"Hating Arabs isn't racism, it's values! #IsraelDemandsRevenge," while on the right, a soldier post a picture with the caption, "Let us simply spray [them with bullets]." <?center>
After the funeral for the three slain Israeli teens on July 1, angry mobs of hundreds began roaming the streets of Jerusalem chanting "Death to Arabs," attacking Palestinians and promising blood by nightfall.
 
Chemi Shalev of Haaretz, witnessing the genocidal chants from Israelis and reading reports of Israeli police saving Palestinian citizens from the mobs, wrote the following:
Make no mistake: the gangs of Jewish ruffians man-hunting for Arabs are no aberration. Theirs was not a one-time outpouring of uncontrollable rage following the discovery of the bodies of the three kidnapped students. Their inflamed hatred does not exist in a vacuum: it is an ongoing presence, growing by the day, encompassing ever larger segments of Israeli society, nurtured in a public environment of resentment, insularity and victimhood, fostered and fed by politicians and pundits.
By nightfall, with the ink of Shalev's pen barely dried, horrific news came that a Palestinian teen from East Jerusalem had been abducted and killed by Israeli settlers in an act of revenge, with reports revealing the unspeakable: he was likely burned alive.

Since that night on July 1, parts of Israel have been burning, and clashes between Palestinians and police in Shuafat, the East Jerusalem neighborhood where the killed teenager lived, have been particularly intense. The police have been unrelenting, raining rubber bullets and tear gas down upon a grieving neighborhood. And the scenes have been difficult to watch.

Perhaps the scene that has put me over the edge is one that should hit close to home: an American teenager from Tampa visiting Israel, who happens to be a cousin of the slain Palestinian teen, was almost beaten to death by police, ostensibly for throwing rocks, and remains in Israeli detention. [Video of the incident.]

brutal
Mother of the American teen beaten tells ABC, "He wasn't recognizable."
I have no words.
--§--

There are parts of me right now that feel defeated. Yes, there have been calls for peace and the denouncing of extremism in Israel, but such calls feel as though they have been drowned out by those still craving revenge. And as Shalev notes, this isn't an isolated incident – this is the result of a real shift in Israeli society concurrent with the ongoing occupation.

The past week's events have shaken me to my core, and have forced me to look long and hard at my personal politics. For if this were any country but Israel, my progressive values would not allow me to support, much less love, such an enterprise. Yet the reality is this: I do.

I'm not ready to abandon the dream of a Jewish state that lives up to its democratic promises, and continue to hold tenuously onto the idea of two states for two peoples. However, I have begun, for the first time, to consider what a single, bi-national state might look like, to consider that it might finally end this madness.

And here's the irony: Israel's extreme-right leaders, embracing various one-state solutions, have forced me to do so. Hell, Israel just elected as its President a one-state proponent. How can I not consider what that might look like?

As it happens, during all of this, I've just finished Ali Abunimah's The Battle for Justice in Palestine, which makes an impassioned case for a democratic, bi-national state as the only way to end this conflict.

The progressive American in me agreed with much of his arguments. The Zionist in me was scared by its premise.

The humanist in me just wants all of this to end. Wants all of the suffering and pain on both sides to end.

If not now, when?

--§--

What Do You Buy For the Children
David Harris-Gershon is author of the memoir What Do You Buy the Children of the Terrorist Who Tried to Kill Your Wife?, recently published by Oneworld Publications.


Originally posted to David Harris-Gershon (The Troubadour) on Sat Jul 05, 2014 at 09:41 PM PDT.

Also republished by Writing by David Harris Gershon and Adalah — A Just Middle East.

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  •  Tip Jar (698+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
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    "If the Jew who struggles for justice for Palestine is considered anti-Semitic, & if Palestinians seeking self-determination are so accused...then no oppositional move can take place w/o risking the accusation." - Judith Butler

    by David Harris Gershon on Sat Jul 05, 2014 at 09:41:29 PM PDT

    •  It's sad, indeed. (148+ / 0-)

      Oh, and if I may, since I didn't post an original comment:

      I ask that all those who comment do so with respect and without any animus (including threadjacking).

      This is, after all, my virtual 'home' here in this post, and I only want constructive dialogue. Can't take much more of the conflict.

      "If the Jew who struggles for justice for Palestine is considered anti-Semitic, & if Palestinians seeking self-determination are so accused...then no oppositional move can take place w/o risking the accusation." - Judith Butler

      by David Harris Gershon on Sat Jul 05, 2014 at 10:08:21 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Near as I can tell, the Israeli government (71+ / 0-)

        is to blame for much of the violence.  They seem to want a war with Palestinians, perhaps as a way to get American dollars to prop up their government and for the USA to supply/give them weapons.

        I saw a segment that was done by a news organization years ago, where an Israeli Army  commander was sick at the fact that he was ordered to level entire blocks of Palestinian homes, when there was no real reason for it, other than mistargeted revenge for something that those people didn't do.  Such actions only escalate problems and don't solve anything.  

        •  The Israeli army commander could have refused (7+ / 0-)

          to do it.

          •  Could have, but would have paid a heavy price (15+ / 0-)

            Refusing orders doesn't go over very well in any army, and in this situation, I can't imagine what would happen to him.

            When I was in Syria nearly twenty years ago I worked with a Kurdish man named Daoud who was a citizen--not all Kurds were legitimate citizens with papers even if they and their parents and other forebears had been born in Syria--so he did his national service in the Syrian army. He was told to fire some big gun of some kind, a howitzer or something like that (I wasn't familiar with the Arabic word but I got the gist), into Israel.  He refused to do it. He didn't hate Israelis, he hated Arabs, even if they were both Islamic. His punishment was horrific: they hung him upside down and beat his bare feet with bamboo whips or rods of some kind. His feet were horribly scarred and he couldn't walk long distances, even though he was only in his mid-to-late 20s. I think about Daoud and his cousin Hamsa and their friends and other cousins from their village and I hope they're all OK, that they all married and have housefuls of kids and the war has mostly avoided their out-of-the-way area. But I'm probably kidding myself.

            •  that doesn't happen in Israel (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Jersey Jon

              he could have refused, at most he would have been convicted in a military court of refusing to obey orders. However awful the policies of Israel are in Palestine, it's a functioning democracy and they don't torture their own citizens.

              He might have lost some benefits, some economic opportunities, maybe some of his neighbors would have shunned him, but there is an active pro-compromise pro-peace community in Israel, he'd have found supporters too.

              plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

              by anna shane on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 02:40:29 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  What ever happened to Mordichai Vanunu, (9+ / 0-)

                Or  Noam Bahat, Hagai Matar, Adam Maor, Shimri Tsameret and Matan Kaminer ,

                Nothing bad right?

                And none of them, was a General.

                •  tell me (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  frostbite

                  I have been pro-Palestian human rights from long before it was in fashion, but that does not inoculate me from wearing blinders regarding the state of Israel.  

                  what did they do, what did happen to them?

                  plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

                  by anna shane on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 02:55:38 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Google them, (5+ / 0-)

                    Vanunu exposed Dimona,

                    The other five just refused to join the IDF on CO grounds.

                    •  good idea (6+ / 0-)

                      Vanunu revealed what they'd wanted revealed, his punishment was a travesty.  What is the point of a doomsday machine if it's secret?  So, he was cynically used, over that pretend-secret that was never meant to be secret but that had to be 'revealed' to make it sink in.  

                      the other guys did the right thing and weren't tortured, only imprisoned.

                      The biggest problem isn't others fearing to do the same, it's too many agreeing that revenge is their due.

                      I attribute two causes, one that the political system makes it that no rational party can create a majority for government without cutting a deal with irrational parties, too many political parties.

                      The other is that the place is tiny, and claustrophobic and in that way crazy making.  

                      When people have been doing or even passively participating in bad things they tend to need to justify them, the other option is admitting to wrong-doing and to wrong-thinking, and that's humanly very hard.

                      Since the second uprising the personal relations between the two people's has been mistrustful.  It's hard to tell them apart from appearance, at first the state of Israel was majority European ancestry, but now it's majority middle-eastern ancestry.  And the young far outnumber the old.

                      I have some small hope that this incident will wake up people of conscience.  

                      Back in '69 Israel tried to bomb a supposed munitions factory but ended up hitting a school and 300 Palestinian kids were killed. I was living there then, the shock and shame of the population was universal.  In the end the Palestinians were 'blamed' for putting a school near a munitions factory, and I still don't know if there was a munitions factory at all, it sounded suspect, maybe poor intelligence was the cause, but the government made the decision to blame the parents.  And the people I knew were torn, but in the end accepted that blaming. Back then Golda Mier said she blamed the Palestinians for making Israelis killers.

                      Assigning blame is political. like everything.  

                      plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

                      by anna shane on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 03:39:24 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Two years jail pre trial, one year jail (5+ / 0-)

                        Post trial, plus life long civil consequences,

                        Is a pretty severe punishment, for being an open and honest conscientious objector, more so given the deal at the time with the Haddissic (sp) community,

                        And more so given the average sentences for violent crimes,

                        And these were just conscripts, weren't even sworn in yet,

                        Imagine what they would do to a General,

                        •  life imprisonment? (0+ / 0-)

                          the general should also say no, or leave the country and not return and say no from somewhere else.

                          plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

                          by anna shane on Mon Jul 07, 2014 at 12:37:03 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  By the time, (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            BlackNGreen, Bluefin

                            That an Officer has reached the rank of General, certain normal human morals have been abandoned or compromised.

                            Officers are expected and required to view the lives of their men, as assets. Enough assets must be "spent" to capture an objective, but the assets should not be in theory, wasted.

                            During WW1, no shortage of Generals bemoaned the waste of assets, tactically and strategically in futile charges against enemy trenches, but the did it in private, in their diaries, not in their official reports or to higher command.

                            That a General even bothers to question an act that most of us would view as contrary to common humanity, is really something,

                            To do something publicly about it would be superhuman.

                            General Smedley Butler wrote what he wrote, and said what he said, for which he is remembered and quoted, much more for than his military career, after he retired.

                            Before he retired, he was as an efficient an agent of Imperialism, genocide and corporate corruption as one could wish, to the point that he remains, the most decorated Marine in the History of the Corps.

                            Funny that.

                          •  The US has a better system of treatment for COs. (0+ / 0-)

                            It's unfortunate that Israel claims to be a democracy, but just can't seem to put that lip-service into practice.  Instead, it's yet another "pure-blood" tribe which can't or won't transcend its self-limitations, including that tribal arrogance and sense of superiority.

                            It isn't even decent to its "own" "lesser" members.

                            This is the country of those three great rights: freedom of conscience, freedom of speech, and the wisdom never to exercise either of them. -- Mark Twain. A lie is half way around the world before the truth can get its shoes on. -- Mark Twain.

                            by JJustin on Mon Jul 07, 2014 at 12:30:56 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

          •  And he would have suffered from the same hatred (0+ / 0-)

            that lead to the destruction of those civilian homes.  

            Because Palestinian sympathizer.

        •  Both sides are sickening to a large degree. (5+ / 0-)

          I do disagree with many Israeli policies, but the Palestinians are not innocent either... deliberately targeting women and children, repeatedly?

          •  so what is your point? (28+ / 0-)

            can't we get past this assigning blame? The Palestinians aren't doing anything, any more than The Israeli's are.  

            Didn't you read what he said, one dead child every three days? Burned alive?  That poor child, the end of his life being like that.  And his cousin beaten and imprisoned?

            When do we say, never again may a democratic leader call for revenge.  

            Defense is not burning children alive.

            plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

            by anna shane on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 12:08:53 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Netanyahu's tweet was disgusting (12+ / 0-)

              References to Satan? What is this, the 15th century?

              •  Netanyahoo is an arrogant bigot. He exemplifies (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                bananapouch1, Eric Blair, anna shane

                the worst in "tradition"-worshippers.

                This is the country of those three great rights: freedom of conscience, freedom of speech, and the wisdom never to exercise either of them. -- Mark Twain. A lie is half way around the world before the truth can get its shoes on. -- Mark Twain.

                by JJustin on Mon Jul 07, 2014 at 12:33:22 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  The Israelis seem to agree (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              AoT, TLS66, mattoqp, Tackle
              Didn't you read what he said, one dead child every three days? Burned alive?  That poor child, the end of his life being like that.
              They arrested the perpetrators.

              When was the last time the Palestinians arrested Palestinians who attacked Israelis?

              •  Unfortunately, google is crap for stuff (6+ / 0-)

                like this so there's no way I'm trodding through pages and pages of news, but the PA does in fact arrest Palestinians for rocket attacks from the West Bank, which is why most rocket attacks are not from the West Bank. Even Hamas has arrested Paletinians for rocket attacks on Israel when doing so was part of a cease fire agreement.

                Again, Israel is a functioning democracy. They certainly haven't charged any of their military with crimes against Palestinians that I've heard of.

                No War but Class War

                by AoT on Mon Jul 07, 2014 at 06:05:42 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Then you have not paid attention to the news (5+ / 0-)
                  Again, Israel is a functioning democracy. They certainly haven't charged any of their military with crimes against Palestinians that I've heard of.
                  Unfortunately, google is crap for stuff (0+ / 0-)
                  like this so there's no way I'm trodding through pages and pages of news, but the PA does in fact arrest Palestinians
                  Funny, Google works perfectly fine to find examples of Israeli soldiers arrested for crimes against Palestinians.  For example,
                  An Israel Defense Forces soldier has been officially charged with killing a woman in Gaza during Operation Cast Lead in early 2009. The indictment against the soldier, a member of the Givati brigade, was filed on Tuesday following a military hearing.

                   Military Advocate General Avihai Mandelblit furthermore has taken legal action against soldiers who allegedly deviated from explicit orders in three additional incidents during Israel's winter offensive in Gaza.

                  And, to forestall, the next objection, here is a conviction.
                  A military court on Monday convicted an Israeli soldier of negligent homicide in the death of Uday Darwish, a 21-year-old Palestinian laborer who was shot in January near the separation fence in the South Hebron Hills.

                  Darwish was killed on January 12 as he was trying to enter Israel illegally through a gap in the fence en route to his job in Rahat. In a plea bargain at the Jaffa military court, the soldier, a staff sergeant in the Home Front Command, confessed to negligent homicide instead of manslaughter.

                  Funny how Google works to find Israel charging, trying, and convicting its soldiers when they commit crimes but it doesn't find any similar examples of the Palestinians charging Palestinian terrorists with crimes, putting them on trial, and convicting them.

                  Heck, Google even finds cases where the Israelis jail Jews for trying to incite attacks on Palestinians.

                  Seeven IDF soldiers were sentenced to short terms in prison Thursday for posting photographs calling for retaliation for the killing of three Israeli teenagers — statements that, according to the army, constitute a breach of military discipline
                  I couldn't find anything on Google about the Palestinians jailing any of their people for incitement.

                  It must be a Zionist plot!

                  •  I read the papers (4+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    AoT, JJustin, Tonedevil, Celtic Merlin

                    that's why the West Bank has been more peaceful, that's the price, Palestinian police working with Israelis and arresting those suspected of acts of terror.  Sorry Beezebuubs Brass Bs but sometimes the propaganda is slanted against facts.  And by facts I don't mean facts on the ground.

                    these kids were arrested, will that also stop the official policy of shooting unarmed kids and calling it justified cause any shooting is justified?  

                    plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

                    by anna shane on Mon Jul 07, 2014 at 10:00:51 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  There is no such official policy (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      JNEREBEL
                      will that also stop the official policy of shooting unarmed kids and calling it justified cause any shooting is justified?  
                      Are you referring to rock throwers?

                      Do you think rocks aren't weapons?

                      If so, I suggest a test.

                      You get a gun with three bullets, I get three fist sized rocks.

                      I come as close to you as I want, and throw my rocks at your head.

                      Once I'm done you can use your gun the same way... if you can still pull the trigger.

                      •  How many Israeli soldiers were killed by rocks? (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        stargaze, Tonedevil

                        How many in the most recent activities and also over, say, the last decade. I'm going to bet it's fewer than the number of Palestinian children killed in the last month or so by the IDF.

                        No War but Class War

                        by AoT on Mon Jul 07, 2014 at 06:19:34 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Are you suggesting that the IDF is required (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          JNEREBEL

                          to allow a certain percentage of its soldiers to get killed?

                          Sorry, but that's not required by any law of war.

                          If you throw rocks at people that's an attack with a deadly weapon.  The fact that it is not a particularly effective one against people who shoot back does not somehow make it illegal or wrong to shoot back.

                          •  I assume that means zero n/t (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Tonedevil

                            No War but Class War

                            by AoT on Mon Jul 07, 2014 at 09:19:03 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  It means the question is irrelevant (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            JNEREBEL

                            Could be 0, could be hundreds.

                            BTW, US law enforcement also kill rock throwers.  If that's a problem why aren't you complaining about it rather than something happening halfway around the world?

                          •  none is the correct answer (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            stargaze

                            what you have to realize at some point is the near lethal beating of an unconscious child caught on camera is the first real evidence that what the Palestinians have been claiming is true. Not all soldiers are killing children, but some are, and that pollutes the entire nation.

                            Now there must be UN monitors, Israel is proven incapable of protecting the Palestinians from their occupying forces.  

                            this is big, BBB, very bid and very wrong.  

                            We must all hope that there now will be break-through negotiations and that UN monitors will be welcomed.  

                            plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

                            by anna shane on Tue Jul 08, 2014 at 01:34:52 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  So an occupying force has the obligation (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            stargaze, BradyB, Tonedevil

                            to beat children and arrest them to stop rock throwing. Noble position there.

                            BTW, US law enforcement also kill rock throwers.  If that's a problem why aren't you complaining about it rather than something happening halfway around the world?
                            I'm well aware of the problems of US Law Enforcement and I'm very vocal about the problem. So your pretend concern is duly noted. In fact, some of those American cops train with Israel.

                            No War but Class War

                            by AoT on Tue Jul 08, 2014 at 05:13:00 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  As a USA taxpayer, it's relevant to me that childr (0+ / 0-)

                            IDF uses lethal force against rock-throwing children.

                            I don't want the occupation either.

                            Israel & IDF are doing a bad job of convincing me my taxmoney is being used appropriately.

                            The boss needs you, you don't need him. -- France general strike, May 1968

                            by stargaze on Tue Jul 08, 2014 at 07:42:23 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                      •  they conduct joint operations (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        AoT, Tonedevil

                        you're mixing up west bank and gaza.

                        plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

                        by anna shane on Tue Jul 08, 2014 at 01:30:09 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

              •  PA Helped in Investigation of Murdered Israelis (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Mad Season, Tonedevil, Lepanto, anna shane

                It was the PA who identified the prime suspects for the murders of the three Israeli boys.

                According to Palestinian sources, Palestinian security forces had already reported to Israel that these two suspects had disappeared from Hebron within 24 hours of the abduction. That was the first clue in the investigation and the reason why Israel pointed an accusatory finger at the Hamas infrastructure in Hebron. But while Israel continues to accuse the Hamas movement and its leadership of being responsible for the abduction, Palestinian security forces attribute the abduction to the Qawasmeh clan of Hebron specifically. Though the clan is known for identifying with Hamas, it also has a well-earned reputation as troublemakers. Not only does it tend to ignore the movement’s leaders. It even acts counter to the policies being advocated by the movement.
                Like the "100" call with audible gunfire (equivalent to our 911) this information was under a gag order and its release to the public was delayed.
                •  According to Palestinian sources (0+ / 0-)

                  Can we get something a bit more credible?

                  I notice this author can't even find a source willing to go on record.  His Palestinian sources could be anyone.

                  •  How About Shin Bet? (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    anna shane

                    The Israelis named the same people as prime suspects. See here:
                    http://globalnews.ca/...

                    •  And the source you provide makes no claim (0+ / 0-)

                      that the Palestinians in any way helped the Israelis identify these men.

                      •  when you find out it's true (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        stargaze, AoT

                        will this change your mind?  It is true, and it's been going on for years. Palestinian doctors save Israeli children too, not just the other way round.

                        You've turned them into cartoons, there is little difference between the two nationalities, and when there is real peace with human rights on both sides, it'll be great.  

                        plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

                        by anna shane on Tue Jul 08, 2014 at 01:39:32 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  No. (0+ / 0-)
                          when you find out it's true (0+ / 0-)
                          will this change your mind?
                          Doing the right thing at the point of a gun means very little.  I would want to see a real change.  An end to the lionization of men and women who deliberately kill innocents.  An end to pensions for terrorists and help for their families.  An end to people handing out sweets in celebration when children are kidnapped and killed.

                          When I see that then I will believe that there is a real change among Palestinians and that peace is actually possible.

                          Palestinian doctors save Israeli children too, not just the other way round.
                          It may happen - for example, in first aid situations after an attack.  Any cites on this?  I have a friend and business partner who is Palestinian.  We don't discuss politics, but he's a good guy to have a beer with.  But a few good men and women don't mean you can have peace with a whole society.
                           
                          •  huge newspaper articles? (0+ / 0-)

                            where have you been, a Palestinian doctor was treating patients in Israel proper when his own child was killed in his town.  That was front page NYT a few years ago. You are sleeping if you don't know these things. That story and contained a lot of the information that you think is so improbable.

                            plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

                            by anna shane on Tue Jul 08, 2014 at 11:45:36 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  also (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Tonedevil

                            when you find out that Israeli soldiers have killed children in the heat of brutality, that should also wake you up.  Jews are no more immune to human passions than any other humans.  The idea that Israelis would not commit atrocities out of some higher moral standing is bunk, and racist, because that supposition at the same time assigns those possibilities to Others.

                            plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

                            by anna shane on Tue Jul 08, 2014 at 11:54:42 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

          •  Palestinians crime is that they exist (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            JJustin, bananapouch1, Lepanto

            and for this they can never be forgiven.

        •  You don't think the people who kidnapped and (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          TLS66, mattoqp, JNEREBEL

          murdered those three kids might have something to do with it?

          Near as I can tell, the Israeli government (71+ / 0-)
          is to blame for much of the violence.
          And what about those in Fatah and Hamas who endorsed it?  Abbas condemned it, but his party's Facebook page published a cartoon calling the kidnapping "a masterstroke" and showing the kidnapped children as rats on fish hooks.  As for Hamas, here was their take on Fatah apparently helping with the rescue operation:
          "Security coordination between (Prime Minister Rami) Hamdallah's and Abbas's security services and the enemy to locate the heroes of the Hebron operation and arrest them is a stigma," said Hamas spokesman Fawzi Barhoum.
          •  Israel has made an open air (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            stargaze, Oh Mary Oh

            prison yard for Palestinians by fencing them off from goods, services and jobs. It's not a recent occurrence either.  

            How would you like it if your every move you made, no matter how benign, could get you killed no matter who you are.  A child trying to go to school, or a doctor trying to go to work, is just as likely to be gunned down as any bad guy.  

            •  Nonsense (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              JNEREBEL
              A child trying to go to school, or a doctor trying to go to work, is just as likely to be gunned down as any bad guy.
              Bull shit.

              As in any war, innocents sometimes get killed accidentally.

              However, the Israelis go to absurd lengths to try to avoid such killings and, as far as I can tell, the vast majority of people killed are either attacking Israelis, doing things like trying to sneak into Israel illegally, which makes them reasonably suspect as terrorists, legitimate targets (ie. Hamas members or other terrorists), or unlucky enough to be very close to such people, weapons depots, etc. when the Israelis attack them.

              •  Are you so blind, you cannot see? (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Oh Mary Oh, stargaze, Tonedevil

                Not guilty. The Israeli captain who emptied his rifle into a Palestinian schoolgirl
                · Officer ignored warnings that teenager was terrified
                · Defence says 'confirming the kill' standard practice

                http://www.theguardian.com/...

                Number of Palestinian children killed doubles

                http://electronicintifada.net/...

                Israel and State of Palestine

                http://childrenandarmedconflict.un.org/...

              •  Bombs don't "go to absurd lengths" (0+ / 0-)

                From today's Times:

                At least 92 people have been killed in Gaza during the Israeli offensive. Of the eight Palestinians who were killed overnight in the airstrikes, five were from a family whose home was struck in the southern city of Rafah. Officials in Gaza said the other fatalities included a 10-year-old girl, who was killed in a strike on another house in Rafah; a Palestinian man killed in Israeli artillery fire there; and a pharmacist in Gaza City who was killed in an airstrike that targeted an apartment.
                The military machinery of the US and Israel both do work hard to limit civilian casualties, but when someone like Bibi Netanyahu orders disproportionate reprisals using bombs, and does his best to incite nationalism and vigilantism, executive vengeance has trumped "absurd" caution (why is it "absurd" to avoid killing civilians anyway?)

                This is more like the path to mutually assured destruction, a road Netanyahu has wanted to walk since Entebbe.

                "Stare at the monster: remark/ How difficult it is to define just what/ Amounts to monstrosity in that/ Very ordinary appearance." - Ted Hughes

                by MarkC on Fri Jul 11, 2014 at 08:01:01 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

      •  Don't give up on "light unto the nations" (10+ / 0-)

        Many people share that ideal and many have put it into practice.

        Anyone considering a dog for personal safety should treat that decision as seriously as they would buying a gun.

        by Dogs are fuzzy on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 01:21:28 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  The OP stated that (17+ / 0-)

          he wants "a Jewish state that lives up to its democratic promises".

          Is it possible to have both, i.e., a democratic state that legally favors the rights of certain of its members as against the rights of other members?  Is that an impossible contradiction for a "democratic state"?

          •  Not when OP puts this shit out there (24+ / 1-)
            Palestinians, accordingly, were portrayed as just one in a series of people who have risen up throughout history to destroy us, being painted as a caricature of evil.
            I went to Hebrew school, too.

            I have sat in many synagogues over the past thirty years.

            I have heard many denouncements of terrorism directed at Israel but I have NEVER heard the Palestinians portrayed the way OP describes it here.

            His is the worst sort of propaganda for it gives non-Jews who have never set foot in an actual synagogue the mistaken belief that Rabbis and Jewish religious leaders somehow demonize Palestinians into cartoon like villains.

            This is simply not true.

            There will, of course, always been some radical "rabbi" with a late night New York cable access show screaming about killing Palestinians.

            But any experience in actual synagogues paints a complex portrait of American Jews that support Israel, feel horribly for the Palestinians, condemn terrorism wherever it occurs, and sees a hopeless situation spiraling out of control.

            But OP's bullshit about Hebrew School?  Maybe his Hebrew school, I wasn't there.  But no Jew I know sees Palestinians as cartoon villains.  And no synagogue that I have attended services in speaks about Palestinians this way.

            •  I Agree WinSmith (13+ / 0-)
              Palestinians, accordingly, were portrayed as just one in a series of people who have risen up throughout history to destroy us, being painted as a caricature of evil. As a boy, I nodded and understood. Israel was not just good, it was necessary.
              This section of the diary is way over the top.  Whatever the diarist experienced growing up in a synagogue was, this is not the experience of the overwhelming majority of American Jews in this country.  

              But clearly, there is something else wrong here.  The diarist is clearly in distress over what he experienced as a child in his synagogue and perhaps needs to enroll himself in counseling in order to move on.  I had similar experiences in parochial schools, and when I could not move past it as an adult, I found a great psychologist and worked through it decades ago.  It was liberating.

              "The quote on the Statue of Liberty doesn't say 'give me your english-speaking only, Christian-believing, heterosexual masses'

              by unapologeticliberal777 on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 07:31:15 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Let us avoid broad generalizations...there is much (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Jersey Jon, mattoqp

                Furor and little is known about the circumstances of the horrific deaths of all four victims here.  The Israeli government may not have released the details in order to apprehend those who murdered the three Israeli teenagers, rather than to exact broad retribution.

                The government still has not to my knowledge released the autopsy reports on those three young men.  Perhaps to avoid adding fuel to the fire.  The Palestinian Authority has had no such compunctions regarding the horrific murder victim in Jerusalem.

                I might also point out that there have been arrests already made in the murder of the Palestinian youth.

                Violence begets violence.  Where this ends I do not know.

              •  What are you talking about? (28+ / 0-)

                He's not psychologically damaged.  He is applying his childhood experience to help explain the virulent anti-Arab sentiments and ideas of collective guilt which were PLAINLY VISIBLE in Israel in the past week.  He's is distressed about that.  If you're not, maybe you should seek counseling.

                In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act--Orwell

                by jhannon on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 11:03:42 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  One person's experience (5+ / 0-)

                  I am countering his experience with my own.  Is mine not as valid as his?

                  He extrapolates his experience to make a general statement about Jewish thought regarding the Palestinians.

                  I'm saying that extrapolation is false.

                  OP's experience is not my experience in synagogue. Nor is it the experience of any Jews that I know.  American Jews are incredibly liberal, and while we obviously support Israel's right to exist and to defend itself, almost every Jew I know supports a two state solution and the right of Palestinians to exist and self govern.  

                  As to your cliche about "collective guilt," Israel is holding the government of HAMAS responsible for the execution-style killings.  I have no idea whether HAMAS was behind the deaths.  

                  But neither do you.  

                  So get off your high horse.  

                  You (presumably) live in a country that routinely flies drones over countries that have NEVER attacked us and shoots missiles into wedding parties.

                  •  You're not encountering with your own. (14+ / 0-)

                    You're making vast generalizations with your own.

                  •  Write your own diary. (7+ / 0-)

                    That is your entitlement as a Daily Kos member.

                    Corporations, which should be the carefully restrained creatures of the law and the servants of the people, are fast becoming the people’s masters. -- President Grover Cleveland, 1888

                    by edg on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 12:59:31 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  So I can't dissent in this one? (4+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      JayinPortland, Zornorph, aimeehs, TLS66

                      Only those who agree with OP may comment?  Goodbye Daily Kos, hello Red State.

                      •  See addendum. n/t (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        WinSmith

                        Corporations, which should be the carefully restrained creatures of the law and the servants of the people, are fast becoming the people’s masters. -- President Grover Cleveland, 1888

                        by edg on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 03:56:56 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  Well, if you would be more comfortable (0+ / 0-)

                        Over at Red State,.....  

                        Shouldn't you be there?

                        If your goal is to not be comfortable, and engage, the posters have lot's of points, you can explore, as part of a community, or alone, or both at times,

                        Post a diary , and maybe a poll,....  

                      •  This is also a bunch of bullshit. (0+ / 0-)

                        I made a "dissenting" comment at RedState once.  

                        For the record, it was in the wake of Son of Erick's ridiculous claim that Republicans "police their own" after Governor Sanford's "hike on the Appalachian trail."  My comment referenced Eliot Spitzer (who resigned) vs. David "diaper" Vitter and Larry "wide stance" Craig, who didn't.  It included a long excerpt of a dialogue between Haley Barbour and Bobby Schieffer on MTP, and Lindsey Graham, Mittens, and Mitch all on various broadcast outlets, all defending Sanford.

                        My comment was deleted and my account banned within one hour.

                        That's RedState.

                        Nobody's suggesting anything remotely like that here, or anywhere else at DK.

                        If you have that much of a victim complex, maybe you should look up unapologeticliberal's psychologist.  I hear she or he is really good -- liberating, in fact.

                        "A standing military force, with an overgrown Executive will not long be safe companions to liberty. The means of defence agst. foreign danger, have been always the instruments of tyranny at home." - James Madison

                        by gharlane on Mon Jul 07, 2014 at 10:04:52 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  italicized wrong word (0+ / 0-)

                          Should read:

                          That's RedState.

                          "A standing military force, with an overgrown Executive will not long be safe companions to liberty. The means of defence agst. foreign danger, have been always the instruments of tyranny at home." - James Madison

                          by gharlane on Mon Jul 07, 2014 at 10:37:15 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                  •  Addendum: (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Tonedevil, Bluesee, Susipsych

                    I didn't mean that to sound harsh. I really would like to read a diary about your experiences growing up. I was Catholic until I became an atheist at age 7 and I don't have much experience with the Jewish faith.

                    Corporations, which should be the carefully restrained creatures of the law and the servants of the people, are fast becoming the people’s masters. -- President Grover Cleveland, 1888

                    by edg on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 01:03:52 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  You are negating his (4+ / 0-)

                    and saying yours is more indicative.  BS, almost hide worthy.

                    ..the smoker you drink, the player you get....

                    by Diane Gee on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 04:19:40 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I'm not negating (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      aimeehs, vcmvo2, JNEREBEL

                      I'm contradicting and saying his personal experience is turned into a generalization about American Jewry.  The burden is on him to back up his first person anecdote with actual evidence or STFU with his propaganda.  It's about as credible as George Will claiming he knows about campus rape because he read an article once.

                      •  Its up to you to prove (5+ / 0-)

                        your generalization is more valid than his.  From what I have read on this page, many have had similar experiences.

                        Again, it is very trollish to say your personal experience counts, and his personal experience is like reading an article (about rape no less - how low can you stoop?)

                        ..the smoker you drink, the player you get....

                        by Diane Gee on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 05:41:16 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Alleging Synagogues describe Palestinians... (5+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          aimeehs, charliehall2, TLS66, mattoqp, JNEREBEL

                          As Nazis or worse?

                          Prove it or STFU.  Burden of proof is on the asshole smearing an entire institutional religion as a group advocating genocide and arguing people are subhuman.

                          It's total bullshit.  Whatever the diarist's personal experiences, to claim this is the norm in Judaism is BULL... SHIT.

                          Go into any synagogue in the country.  Talk to a Rabbi.  Then tell me what he says is true.  It's fucking crap.

                          •  I often go to right wing synagogues (5+ / 0-)

                            And I rarely here the kinds of shit the diarist describes. It is there. But it is rare.

                            It is more common on right wing Jewish internet sites. I call out that stuff on a regular basis. And I get no end of grief for it. But a lot of folks here think I am some kind of apologist for it! (I figure that if I get equal amounts of greif from the crazy right wingers on the Jewish sites, and from the crazy left wingers here, I'm probably in the right place).

                            I do have some cred on those right wing sites because I am strictly observant of halachah and also know a fair number of Jewish sources -- for example I've been through the entire Babylonia Talmud. I refuse to allow my religion to be abused without challenge.

                            The diarist would do well to stop blaming mainstream Israelis and mainstream Jews, and start paying attention to what is really going on. His constant bashing of Israel makes it LESS likely that the kinds of changes he would like to see will occur. It is ironic that he decries the one state solutions that the Israeli Right is supporting while supporting an almost identical one state solution from the Pali side. The Israeli right hasn't gotten that the Greater Israel idea died in 1992 with Rabin's election, and the Palis don't get that the certainty of Israel's continued existence was assured with the result of the 1967 war. This is like climate change -- you don't have to like it, but facts are facts.

                            I would welcome support on some of these right wing sites. It can get lonely out there.

                          •  I see it online (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            protectspice, Anorish

                            all the time.  Your old friend Karmafish still spouts it.  

                            Your rage does nothing for your strawman.

                            ..the smoker you drink, the player you get....

                            by Diane Gee on Mon Jul 07, 2014 at 06:43:20 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Go ahead, show us. (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Tonedevil, Diane Gee

                            Show us where DHG "alleg[es] Synagogues describe Palestinians as Nazis or worse."

                            He described an experience he had, the "education" he and the rest of the kids at his childhood synagogue personally underwent.  As I noted elsewhere, although I never had quite the same in-your-face "mock terrorist attack" experience he did, his experience of his early "education" about who "the Arabs" were mirrors my own, growing up in a large Los Angeles synagogue in the early 1970s.  

                            That experience actually happened, whether you like it or not, unless you are prepared to call DHG a liar.

                            But that's all he did, other than repeat the message that the experience taught him at the time:  "We were the good ones."

                            It's your fevered imagination that's doing the generalizing, all by its fevered little self.

                            "A standing military force, with an overgrown Executive will not long be safe companions to liberty. The means of defence agst. foreign danger, have been always the instruments of tyranny at home." - James Madison

                            by gharlane on Mon Jul 07, 2014 at 10:31:34 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                      •  maybe just a matter of timing (3+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        SherriG, renbear, Cassandra Waites

                        The diarist describes a youth in the early sixties, and it rings true with regard to how Israel was viewed. We know more, we know better, now, 40 or 50 years later, and perhaps your own youth reflects that more nuanced view.
                           

                        Bold at inappropriate times. Mediocre at best.

                        by steep rain on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 06:01:42 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Fair enough (3+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          AoT, TLS66, JNEREBEL

                          The generational point is well taken.  It's plausible that early 1960s Judaism spoke that way about Palestinians.  But even if that's true, the religion is nothing like the diarist alleges.  I have heard sermons in at least two dozen synagogues, and I hear nothing but respect for the Palestinian people's right to exist and a deep hope for some form of peace to come out of this chaos.

                  •  Did you notice (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Tonedevil

                    that jhannon was not replying to you?

                    jhannon was responding to unapologeticliberal's armchair psychoanalysis (or rather a cheap shot in the service of propaganda disguised as armchair psychoanalysis) of the OP. That it was a gratuitous cheap shot is something even you should recognize.  But you didn't write it, unless unapologeticliberal is your sockpuppet.  

                    You are, of course, defending it now.  And I presume you both have statistical studies to back up your point since you both presume to know what the experience of the "vast majority of Jews" is.

                    You, indeed, extrapolate from your own experience to determine (quite scientifically, I'm sure) that the OP's extrapolation is false.  Beyond your own experience of talking to "all the Jews you know", you have exactly nothing in the way of evidence.

                    You (presumably) live in a country that routinely flies drones over countries that have NEVER attacked us and shoots missiles into wedding parties.
                    Just WTF is this bullshit?  Yes, I do, and so do you, presumably, and so, presumably does jhannon.  But what the fuck does that have to do with the topic under discussion?  The fact that someone lives in a country that conducts odious and illegal civilian-targeting operations means that they can't open their mouths when another country does it too?  Seriously, this is the best you got?

                    "A standing military force, with an overgrown Executive will not long be safe companions to liberty. The means of defence agst. foreign danger, have been always the instruments of tyranny at home." - James Madison

                    by gharlane on Mon Jul 07, 2014 at 09:49:51 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Actually, I retract part of my comment (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      stargaze, Tildor, Tonedevil

                      It's the part where I claim that DHG (the diarist) "extrapolates" from personal experience to a "generalization" about Jews in general.

                      On a more careful re-read, that's false.  DHG makes no such extrapolation or generalization.

                      It's WinSmith who's doing the extrapolating, putting words into DHG's mouth, and attempting to tar DHG with the brush of anti-Semitism.

                      "A standing military force, with an overgrown Executive will not long be safe companions to liberty. The means of defence agst. foreign danger, have been always the instruments of tyranny at home." - James Madison

                      by gharlane on Mon Jul 07, 2014 at 10:12:36 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                  •  OK, show us (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Tonedevil

                    EXACTLY where

                    He extrapolates his experience to make a general statement about Jewish thought regarding the Palestinians.
                    It's YOU, not DHG, who's doing the extrapolating.  DHG merely related a personal experience from childhood (one that does not exactly mirror my own, btw, but has certain similar features -- as far as I was concerned, "Palestinian" was synonymous with "terrorist" because that was what my synagogue taught, and it took me until age 20 and a trip to Israel to unlearn it).  He then describes how he moved away from what he describes as "such naiveté" as an adult.  In that, too, his experience mirrors my own.  But nowhere -- NOWHERE -- does DHG make the kind of odious statements about Jews and Jewish thought that you impute to him here and elsewhere in this comment thread.   NOWHERE does DHG "smear[] an entire institutional religion as a group advocating genocide and arguing people are subhuman."  He made no such arguments in his diary, anywhere.  

                    I didn't quote one word before "smear[]".  That was where you called DHG an "asshole."

                    For that reason, and for the fact that you are attributing to the diarist odious, anti-Semitic arguments he never made, your comments are donut-worthy.

                    The past week's events have shaken me to my core, and have forced me to look long and hard at my personal politics. For if this were any country but Israel, my progressive values would not allow me to support, much less love, such an enterprise. Yet the reality is this: I do.

                    I'm not ready to abandon the dream of a Jewish state that lives up to its democratic promises, and continue to hold tenuously onto the idea of two states for two peoples. However, I have begun, for the first time, to consider what a single, bi-national state might look like, to consider that it might finally end this madness.

                    That's straight from the diary, bub.  Try squaring that with your caricature of what he said.  Who's the asshole now?

                    "A standing military force, with an overgrown Executive will not long be safe companions to liberty. The means of defence agst. foreign danger, have been always the instruments of tyranny at home." - James Madison

                    by gharlane on Mon Jul 07, 2014 at 10:24:49 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  Of course, your experience is as valid as his. (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Tonedevil

                    But here's the part you seem to miss:  it's no more valid than his.

                    And what's less valid -- odious, in fact -- is that you then use his recounting of his experience to claim that he extrapolates from it something he does not (it's you, not he, that's doing the extrapolating) and to claim that by recounting that experience he is "smearing an entire institutional religion as a group advocating genocide and arguing people are subhuman."

                    In other words, you have just accused DHG of anti-Semitism.

                    Have you no sense of decency, sir?

                    "A standing military force, with an overgrown Executive will not long be safe companions to liberty. The means of defence agst. foreign danger, have been always the instruments of tyranny at home." - James Madison

                    by gharlane on Mon Jul 07, 2014 at 10:59:29 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

              •  This is very funny. (17+ / 0-)

                First you know "the experience of the overwhelming majority of American Jews in this country."

                Then you do armchair psychologizing of the diarist.

                Tres cute.

              •  He described the murder of the Jewish teens ... (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                TLS66, JNEREBEL

                as "tragic", but the murder of the Palestinian was "horrific".  His sympathies are pretty clear.

                "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity, and I am not sure about the universe." -- Albert Einstein

                by Neuroptimalian on Mon Jul 07, 2014 at 12:03:10 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Well, we don't have the gory details (6+ / 0-)

                  of the Israeli teens' killings yet (for some reason), but we do have some details of the Palestinian teen's killing, and the details are indeed horrific.

                  Forced to drink gasoline then set on fire while still alive. Burning to death from the inside as well as outside. 90% of his body burned so badly they had to use DNA to identify him. Possible mutilation of his genitals.

                  I'm not sure you've made the case that David's sympathies "are pretty clear."

                  The easily offended deserve to be easily offended.--God

                  by Flyswatterbanjo on Mon Jul 07, 2014 at 09:22:43 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  My questions were independent (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Tonedevil

              of anything the OP stated in his diary.

            •  I have to say otherwise (37+ / 0-)

              I also went to Hebrew school, though I let go of attending synagogue years ago. My impression growing up absolutely parallels the OP, perhaps not explicitly but without a doubt that was the implicit message I grew up with. I also still see it in members of my family who used to share anti-Palestinian emails that were overtly racist, until I made them stop and called out their overt racism.

              Attacking the diary because you have a different experience is disingenuous.

              "Political ends as sad remains will die." - YES 'And You and I' ; -8.88, -9.54

              by US Blues on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 08:17:18 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Why is that disingenuous? (7+ / 0-)

                Are my experiences not as valid as OPs?  Do I not have a right to express them in a diary where many non-Jews reading might make assumptions about synagogues that I find to be wildly incorrect?

                I'm not just referring to my temple growing up.  I have attended services in temples all over the country on high holidays and Shabbats.   I have heard numerous conservative and reform Rabbis speak to the problems in Israel, and while they almost always support Israel's right to exist and defend itself, I have never heard the demonization of Palestinians that OP describes.

                •  It varies. (4+ / 0-)

                  Some rabbis are more oriented towards peace, other less. OP could have very well experienced hostility towards the Palestinians.

                  •  Have you been to a synagogue? (9+ / 0-)

                    If a Rabbi got up and started ranting about Palestinians as Nazis, people would be horrified.  It would so directly violate the entire concept of religious prayer I can't even imagine a scenario where OP could have heard that kind of invective.

                    I'm not saying some Jews don't say and think terrible things about Palestinians.  I'm saying no synagogue I know would espouse that kind of eliminationist rhetoric, and I vehemently disagree that that kind of speech is in any way institutionally supported in any Jewish synagogues outside of some fanatic version of that "church" that hates gay people in Texas.

                    •  Right (0+ / 0-)

                      just as neo confederates have learned not to say "nigger, nigger, nigger".

                      While most Rabbis with whom have dealings are rational people who are horrified at what is going on in Israel, at least 15% support the suppression of Palestinians at the very least and in some cases support unspeakable behavior by the hard right in Israel

                      Newt 2012. Sociopath, adulterer, hypocrite, Republican.

                      by tikkun on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 08:05:08 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                •  What if Your Rabbi Was (2+ / 0-)

                  Meir Kahane?

                  This aggression will not stand, man.

                  by kaleidescope on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 01:18:43 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  You went beyond your own experience (11+ / 0-)

                  In your criticism. If you had a different experience, then just say so. Calling out the OP simply based on a different experience is meaningless.

                  "Political ends as sad remains will die." - YES 'And You and I' ; -8.88, -9.54

                  by US Blues on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 01:24:30 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  You almost denied the diarist's observation (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Tonedevil, Hayate Yagami

                  You called it bullshit before admitting you weren't there.  I have belonged to a number of synagogues too, and while most non-Orthodox recently would not be like the one he mentioned, "Arabs" in general were heavily demonized in the years on either side of the 1967 and 1973 wars.  Even though mine had never done anything lie what he described, his diary rings true.

                  There is a strain of non-Orthodox Judaism that puts Zionism at the forefront of current Jewish belief and practice.  (Some Orthodox use other excuses to be racist.)  Such teachers would easily have pulled a stunt like Mr. Harris Gershon describes. I wouldn't stick around, but when I was a kid (during Nasser's era), it wouldn't have been surprising.

                  •  Fair enough (0+ / 0-)

                    The limits of my experience do date to the mid 1980s.  I certainly cannot rule out that synagogues back in the 1960s spoke of Arabs with that level of demonization given the political climate at the time.

                    My point is only that that type of racialized language no longer exists in major American synagogues as far as I can tell and if it did I know it would alienate most American Jews.

                    So his point is about as relevant as saying Christianity believes in the Blood Libel because of events a hundred years ago.  

                    •  While the populist forms of Christianity (0+ / 0-)

                      Publicly refute Blood Libel,

                      My fundi brother believes in Blood Libel,

                      And this is a guy, who between 12 and 40, couldn't be even dragged in to church, kicking and screaming ,

                      But at 40, he married a Nazarene, and by 42 was spouting aspects of blood libel with the faith of a true believer.

                      He got it from somewhere, and considering his life is work, family and church, I am pretty sure it wasn't work or family.

                      •  There are extremists everywhere (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        JNEREBEL

                        OP's point was an institutional critique of a specific organized religion.  He stated that it is routine in synagogues to demonize Palestinians.  It is not only wrong but damaging in its wrongness.

                        The Blood Libel is no longer practiced or taught in mainstream Christianity and was explicitly refuted in Catholicism by Vatican II.  Sure asswipes like Mel Gibson reject Vatican II, but one cannot critique institutional Christianity by citing Mel Gibson, can they?  

                        Small violent-rhetoric religious subcultures do not indict the larger religion.

                        If they did, then the republicans would be right about Islam, no?

                        •  Between 35 and 64% of North American (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Tonedevil

                          Catholic Parishes, reject some aspects of Vatican II, and there is a very large, well funded, influential and powerful Catholic Organization that rejects all aspects of Vatican II,

                          And the , there are the Lodges, Social Groups and Secret Societies,

                          What percentage still teaches blood libel is unknown, but hate is taught, you don't learn it by reading or off the internet.

                          Mel was taught it somewhere, and it probably wasn't at home or work.

                          In my Brothers case, while blood libel is not official policy of the Nazarenes, somebody of influence is teaching it, in one of the social or study groups, because it is a commonly held belief amongst the core members of the Church.

                          Btw, the author recounted his experiences, in a particular place and time, and the commonality of that experience, he has discovered in conversations with co religionists.

                          No where in the diary does he claim that his experience is universal, or doctrine.

                          I grew up Scottish Orthodox,( think a cross between old Catholic, (Pre-Vatican, ),Southern Baptist, but improved with more beatings), taught by an old Scottish Minister, who never met a human action that you wouldn't burn in hell, at best, for, aso, in many regards, what I was taught as doctrine,  many Christians, wouldn't consider "Christian".

                •  Non Jews Are Feeling the Pressure As Well (0+ / 0-)

                  Those of us who are part of the avrahamic dialogue are thoroughly disgusted with the pressure we're getting from many rabbis and ALL of AIPAC

                  Newt 2012. Sociopath, adulterer, hypocrite, Republican.

                  by tikkun on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 08:00:13 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  Not disingenuous, just naive and self-centered/nt (0+ / 0-)

                In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act--Orwell

                by jhannon on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 11:04:44 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  I didn't go to Hebrew school (21+ / 0-)

              but was absolutely taught exactly what DHG describes growing up.

              In our criminal justice system, a Republican is presumed innocent until the 2nd Coming. - Gooserock

              by ExpatGirl on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 08:57:42 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  You weren't there so to call it bs is really bs. (7+ / 0-)

              No Jew YOU KNOW sees Palestinians as cartoon villains.  To think this doesn't happen in some communities is naive.

              In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act--Orwell

              by jhannon on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 11:01:35 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  "OP puts this shit out there" HRd for your (10+ / 0-)

              choice of inflammatory words about OP and his presentation - and to catch everyone's attention re this reaction.  Is it reasonable?  HR might not be popular but tough sh*t cuz...

              I've got my perceptions and my feelings matter!!1  Right, WS?

              "But OP's bullshit about Hebrew School?"
              Wow.  So much for reasoned discussion, eh WS?

              Perhaps you could write your own diary with your own inflamed language and hyperbole:


              shit
              propaganda
              demonize
              screaming
              bullshit
              cartoon villains
              Then you could tell us how you really feel about Palestinians...

              "If you're in a coalition and you're comfortable, you know it's not a broad enough coalition /= GTFO" Dr. Bernice Johnson Reagon + JVolvo

              by JVolvo on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 11:56:37 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Wow! You've been to all synagogues in the US? (9+ / 0-)
              But any experience in actual synagogues paints a complex portrait of American Jews that support Israel, feel horribly for the Palestinians, condemn terrorism wherever it occurs, and sees a hopeless situation spiraling out of control.
              Sounds like you've been very busy.
              •  No (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                mattoqp, JNEREBEL

                But I'm not the one alleging one of the major American religions teaches the broad demonization of an entire people.  

                Anyone making that sort of inflamatory charge needs to back it up, whether it's George Will's fantasies about campus rape or diarist's projections of his own animosity towards Israel into the American Jewish experience.

                •  It's a three-fer: (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Anorish, JJustin, Brecht

                  Lie #1: The diarist is not "alleging one of the major American religions teaches the broad demonization of an entire people." He's discussing his experiences in his synagogue growing up.

                  Lie #2: Your original comment about "any experience in actual synagogues," since you now admit that you have not been to all synagogues in the US.

                  Lie #3: Your armchair psychologizing about the "diarist's projections of his own animosity towards Israel into the American Jewish experience."

            •  This. (0+ / 0-)

              When they own the information, they can bend it all they want. -- John Mayer

              by S M Tenneshaw on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 03:03:30 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Win (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Brecht, Remembering Jello, JJustin

              I've been involved in interfaith dialogue for a very long time and the pressure from AIPAC and its sycophants to shut Muslims out of abrahamic dialogue has made serious dialogue impossible.  

              They lowered the boom on Hillel demanding that Hillel not invite Muslim speakers to address any of its chapters.  It has been bad for at least 8 years and has become progressively worse.  Perhaps you're not in places to experience it, but it is making the world a much worse place to live...And, this is the USA, not Israel.

              You are in denial.

              Newt 2012. Sociopath, adulterer, hypocrite, Republican.

              by tikkun on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 07:57:06 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  I have not been in a while but (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Remembering Jello

              the OP's experience was similar to mine.

              I think a lot would depend on the congregation and which movement they are part of.

              I can tell you that one of the main reasons I would never rejoin the synagogue I grew up in outside of Washington DC is that the Conservative/Mazorti movement is Likud/Neocon central. Even though most of the members are progressive Democrats, the Rabbis and the activist board member types are basically the US propaganda arm of the Likud party.

              They definitely brought in right-wing Israelis and American Neocons on the regular basis to tell us lies about Palestinians throwing their bomb-laden babies at IDF soldiers.

              It is really too bad what the Conservative Jewish Movement became because they probably have the best services and a good balance between tradition and modernity but I refuse to go back.

          •  I think that he meant a majority-Jewish state (0+ / 0-)

            Which would mean equal rights for all, but Jews would be a clear majority, therefore their values would influence the state.

            Just like many western nations are secular, but the dominant religion (Christianity) influences the state's values.

        •  I came to terms about this perpetual blood bath (10+ / 0-)

          some time ago. Israel has adopted the techniques to "manage" Palistinians that were used to "manage" them in the 1930s, while the Palistinians would rather blow themselves up in suicide bombings than ditch their radicalized elements and sure for peace as one people on one front. This will not end until... until it ends the way an old childhood poem describes it:

          The gingham dog and the calico cat
          Side by side on the table sat;
             'Twas half-past twelve, and (what do you think!)
              Nor one nor t'other had slept a wink!
              The old Dutch clock and the Chinese plate
              Appeared to know as sure as fate
              There was going to be a terrible spat.
              (I wasn't there; I simply state
              What was told to me by the Chinese plate!)

              The gingham dog went "bow-wow-wow!"
              And the calico cat replied "mee-ow!"
              The air was littered, an hour or so,
              With bits of gingham and calico,
              While the old Dutch clock in the chimney-place
              Up with its hands before its face,
              For it always dreaded a family row!
              (Never mind: I'm only telling you
             What the old Dutch clock declares is true!)

              The Chinese plate looked very blue,
              And wailed, "Oh, dear! what shall we do!"
              But the gingham dog and the calico cat
              Wallowed this way and tumbled that,
              Employing every tooth and claw
              In the awfullest way you ever saw–
              And, oh! how the gingham and calico flew!
              (Don't fancy I exaggerate–
              I got my news from the Chinese plate!)

              Next morning where the two had sat
              They found no trace of dog or cat;
              And some folk think unto this day
              That burglars stole that pair away!
              But the truth about the cat and pup
              Is this: They ate each other up!
              Now what do you really think of that!
              (The old Dutch clock it told me so,
              And that is how I came to know.)

        •  A contemporary example of good ethics (0+ / 0-)

          Horrifying as the face of hate is to anyone with eyes and a heart, it is also solidly real that Jewish police officers were protecting Arabs from the thugs.

          Anyone considering a dog for personal safety should treat that decision as seriously as they would buying a gun.

          by Dogs are fuzzy on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 03:58:05 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  David -- this was wonderful and speaks for me (11+ / 0-)

        also. I have all but given up on a 2-state solution and, like you, feel torn apart by the death of a dream that has accompanied the death of so many people.

        While Democrats work to get more people to vote, Republicans work to ensure those votes won't count.

        by Tamar on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 10:01:28 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Your quote if very apt. (5+ / 0-)

        To call anyone who feels empathy for the abuse of Palestinian civilians anti-semitic is abusive.  But it does effectively stifle the ability of Americans to have an open and honest discussion of how we, as a nation of mostly empathetic people  see what, we in fact see.

        If anything the threat of being labeled, however falsely, is most likely to increase anti-semitic attitudes that the reverse.

        It is well for those who like to throw the label to understand that most of us can separate our attitude toward the faith, and toward individual people, from our attitude toward apartheid. And that goes for lots of different cultures and religions and moral issues, in this country as well as abroad.

        Abusing Palestinian civilans and effectively threatening to label every American who feels for their suffering as being a bigot is not a productive way to find constructive solutions either in this country or in the Mideast.

        In the mean time American tax payers are paying through the nose to keep the unrest here and there alive because there are those in this country and abroad who want to keep the festering anger, abuse and racism continuing into perpetuity.

      •  with you in spirit. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        TLS66

        (I'm not Jewish but none the less...)

        Israel as a Jewish state is essential, as the reasons for its founding make clear: the Jews as a people must have safe haven from the threats of pogroms and genocide, and must have a place where their culture is not a tolerated minority but is the majority and mainstream culture of the place.

        Israel is also the only place in the region where women have enforceable legal rights: that, in and of itself, counts enormously.

        Yet there is no way to carve out a new country in a region that is already populated, without subjecting the existing population to displacement or second-class status, that in turn will lead to endless conflict.

        Add to this, relentless population growth in a region where the finitude of essential resources is plain to see, and the most finite resources are water and land.  

        The situation is almost logically intractable, and yet somehow it has to be solved.

        The Arab states have the capacity to create a new Palestine within their own national borders, if they chose, and then relocate all of the Palestinian people from Israel to the new Palestine.  The Arab states have the financial wherewithal to make such a paradise of it, that the Palestinian people would flock to it as fast as they could get there.  

        Why won't any of the Arab states do this?

        We got the future back. Uh-oh.

        by G2geek on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 06:30:58 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I'm trying to be polite..... (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          janemas, protectspice, Hark

          But what you're advocating is a form of ethnic cleansing.

          In other words, if they don't like they can just leave.

          The problem is none of the countries in the region, except Israel with massive American backing, are all poor.

          Just how the hell are they going to do it? Who will foot the bill?

          This clusterfuck started with the creation of Israel and will continue to do so until Israel and the Palestinians somehow come to agreement.

          "Human beings make life so interesting. Do you know, that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to invent boredom. " - Death (Terry Pratchett character)

          by Thorby Baslim on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 09:09:55 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Yes and no, (0+ / 0-)

            The clusterf$uck started with the establishment of the the State of Israel and the non-establishment of the State of Palistine.

            Both groups were trying to throw off the yolks of Colonialism,

            And there were many examples of cooperation against the Empire, or even nature, and mutual self support,

            But a minority, predominantly on one side, tried to turn it into a winner takes all game and every player was in it for themselves.

            That's where the tragedy started and over 50 years later, it remains.

            in many  regards, it is no different than the fate of the mixed neothanderel  / human society they found in Siberia in 2008.

            •  Sorry, check your history books (and period maps) (0+ / 0-)

              No, no, no,, no, no....
              This clusterfuck started when the British took nearly 80% of pre-Mandate Palestine and used it to set up a nice little kingdom for a friend of theirs... Abdullah was one of the Hashemites that helped them during WWI, and the Hashemites had been recently trounced in an inter-clan power struggle with the House of Saud (and yes, that is why "King" Abdullah's original home is now called Saudi Arabia). The Palestinians were never really happy about that, which is why there was a little dust-up later between Yassar Arafat and Abdullah's son Hussein for control of the country. Unfortunately for Arafat, Hussein's army was MUCH better trained than his fighters, and the Palestinians now remember the event as Black September.
              The majority of Jordanian citizens are in fact Palestinian and always have been, so the establishment of the first Palestinian state in the Middle East actually predates the creation of the Jewish State (out of the sliver of land that was left over) by a solid two decades.
              You won't hear the Israeli political establishment mention this, because the Hashemites have been actually pretty good neighbors over the years and the Israelis are scared to death of an Arab Spring in Jordan that results in a radical islamic state there, whereas the Palestinians really don't like to admit the shameful way that they have been used as political pawns by their Arab brethren...
              The bottom line is that all of the clusterfuck is about the Palestinian REFUGEES who have been pissed on by the rest of the collective Arab Nation, and that the "Two-state solution" so much beloved by everyone is in reality a "three-state solution" and always has been.

              Do not go gentle into that good night. Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

              by drybones on Mon Jul 07, 2014 at 07:32:56 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  "Palestinian REFUGEES who have been pissed on by (0+ / 0-)

                the rest of the collective Arab Nation"

                I would have a better opinion of the bordering nations if they didn't use the refugees in their borders as pawns, the thief is still a theft. The thief is still a thief.

                If someone steals my house that doesn't mean my neighbor is obligated to take me in, and the thief has no moral standing to say to my reluctant neighbor "you're wrong".

                The Palestinians currently living in the West Bank certainly shouldn't have their homes destroyed, water stolen, olive trees cut down, etc. Families who were thrown out and want to come home should be able to.

                The boss needs you, you don't need him. -- France general strike, May 1968

                by stargaze on Tue Jul 08, 2014 at 07:57:32 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I agree with you... (0+ / 0-)

                  ...on every point except one. In 1967 there were Arab armies massed on every one of Israel's borders except the Mediterranean, and the Arab slogan was that the Jews were to be driven into the sea. The pre-emptive strike that Israel launched against her enemies' aircraft was the only option the country had to avoid distruction, but succeeded brilliantly. The West Bank, Gaza, and Sinai were afterwards held by Israel as bargaining chips. The disposition of Sinai is a telling example of precisely what Israel does with captured territory when the other side is willing to negotiate - but sadly, with regard to the West Bank and Gaza, Israel did not take into account that the Arab nations were perfectly content to sacrifice the Palestinians for political advantage. Israel has had her fist inside that hornets' nest ever since - suffering from the damaging effects of being an occupier, but afraid of what will come if she lets go. That does NOT make capturing territory in a defensive war theft, nor are the Israeli's thieves, as you call them. If they are, perhaps we should set an example of honesty by giving the American Southeast back to Spain and the Southwest back to Mexico? Our wars back then were far less justified than was Israel's self-defense. Or let's take it one step further and give the whole shebang back to the Native Americans - why be only partially principled??

                  Do not go gentle into that good night. Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

                  by drybones on Tue Jul 08, 2014 at 07:04:08 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  USA & Israel are both thieving now and they were (0+ / 0-)

                    thieves in the past.

                    Both the USA and Israel origin stories start with theft. In the USA, the Park service & most of the population admit the theft. There is some expression of apology, but thieving still continues. With each generation, it's more complicated. As I mentioned in another reply, there’s a difference between an adult who moves onto stolen land, accompanying children, and born there.

                    I wouldn't consider change of government (such as Jordan to Israel) necessarily thieving, but the actions later seem more theft than “self defense”, when the Palestinians living on the land had homes and farms stolen, and are continuing to be stolen, along with water rights. Along with the repression.

                    The photo of the USA teen that was beaten (the last photo above), I have seen many such photos of USA police going berserk. Both USA and Israel police do this systematically (jpmassar has many diaries documenting USA examples). It isn’t good for the reputation of USA police and IDF both.

                    Since Israel is currently thieving and repressing I have agreement with the point of view of the Palestinians who were/are being displaced that 1967 (and 1948) were theft.

                    Your question about if USA giving back land that was stolen generations ago, my answer is the “Honor the Treaties” movement is trying to deal with that, taking into account the number of years and generations between. Most important is to stop stealing more.

                    The boss needs you, you don't need him. -- France general strike, May 1968

                    by stargaze on Wed Jul 09, 2014 at 06:42:49 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  You seem to think... (0+ / 0-)

                      ...that the Jews suddenly showed up in Palestine and displaced the Arabs. Nothing could be further from the truth. Go read Mark Twain's "Innocents Abroad" if you want to know what it was like before the Jews developed the land. You can hardly call him a Zionist, and he describes a deserted wasteland where it was possible to travel for days without seeing another human being. The Palestinian influx happened AFTER the Jews drained the malarial swamps and made the the land habitable. Oh, and by the way, they BOUGHT those swamps. The Arab owners were very happy to cheat them out of their money for that "useless" land.

                      Do not go gentle into that good night. Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

                      by drybones on Wed Jul 09, 2014 at 05:42:01 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Oh, and by the way... (0+ / 0-)

                        ...my postings are not about being pro Israel or anti Palestinian - I am neither. My posts are with regard to the total lack of historical insight, knowledge, and/or accuracy in the overwhelming majority of discussions about the Middle East.

                        Do not go gentle into that good night. Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

                        by drybones on Wed Jul 09, 2014 at 05:47:34 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  Disagreeing about the word "theft" (0+ / 0-)

                        You mention the Zionists bought the land from Arabs. Something I remember from description of the Arab revolt in the 1930s was of absentee landlords throwing farmers off the land they had been farming. If the landlords weren't farming the land then that can easily become opportunism and theft, even if "legal". If renters were being expelled from farms, I don't think all the land involved was "useless" and "swamps".

                        There was a facebook meme I remember with a partial David Ben-Gurion quote and I googled to get a better citation:

                        The land, the villages, the mountains, the roads are in their hands. The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country …
                        Address at the Mapai Political Committee (7 June 1938) as quoted in Flapan, Simha, 1979.
                        In a recent diary a commenter made reference to a pre-1948 Zionist document or program that included "Colonial" in the title. It shouldn't be surprising that the early Zionists referred to their goal as "Colonial", because that was one of the ways the upper classes of that time considered things. India didn't get independence from Britain, after struggle, until 1947.

                        Since major organizers of the new nation & government use words such as "take" and "colony", and the people displaced use the work "theft", I think I’m justified is considering the actions "theft" also.

                        PS: USA courts have ruled a lot of theft of Native American land and resources were "legal" at the time the thefts occurred. Honest history still calls such actions "theft".

                        The boss needs you, you don't need him. -- France general strike, May 1968

                        by stargaze on Thu Jul 10, 2014 at 12:45:52 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

        •  Hey I've got an idea... (0+ / 0-)

          how about we relocate a palestinian family into your house and you can go live with some relatives?  How does that sound?

    •  "Sad" does not begin to describe Israel and what (60+ / 0-)

      they have been doing to the Palestinian People for decades.I was devastated, 25 years ago when a  non-Jewish evangelical friend, who had lived on a Kibbutz for 2 years could no longer conceal what she had witnessed in Israel. The term she used was "apartheid".

      Years later Jimmy Carter used this same word to describe what was happening to the Palestinian People. Vanessa Redgrave called it thuggery.

      The only comfort I can have in this matter is that this Diarist has demonstrated the character that my parents had ascribed to the Jewish people and instilled in me about the Jewish People from a very early age.

      The land was promised to the Jews upon specific conditions that  they have failed to meet. This is what is truly sad, sad for the broken covenant,  a broken nation ,by Israel .      

      •  I don't accept the idea that (22+ / 0-)

        there is any binding "promise."  After all, this "promise" was part of a religious tradition.  Why should people not part of that tradition accept it?  Land grabs under the banner of some religion or another have been going on for millennia.

      •  Palestinians are pawns of the Arab states (16+ / 0-)

        Their tragic fate is as much about the governments of Egypt, Syria, Jordan, and Lebanon using them as pawns to place pressure on Israel and refusing to aid them in their humanitarian crisis because their suffering helps the propaganda campaign against Israel.

        One need only remember that The West Bank has a twelve mile border controlled by EGYPT.  People screaming about Israel love to forget this niggling fact.

        The Palestinians suffer from all sides.  Israel has responded to terrorism in the second intifada (2000-2002) with a reactionary turn towards aggressive right wing militarization (Netanyahu et al).  Which would be easier for Americans like us to condemn if we didn't watch our own country respond to 9/11 with years of lunacy in blowing up Iraq and killing hundreds of thousands of innocents.

        And yes, the Iraq invasion by Cheney and company was far more of a humanitarian and human rights disgrace than anything Israel has done responding to the Second Intifada.  Israel faces an actual terrorist threat from Hamas.  We faced nothing from Hussein.

        But that's just context.

        My point is that if you willfully ignore how Palestinians were used as pawns in the Six Day War in 1967 and how ignored their human rights crises have been by their ostensible supporters, you would not simply describe this situation as one of Israel doing something "to" Palestine.

        The situation is far more nuanced and complex.

        •  Minor point (26+ / 0-)

          The West Bank doesn't share a border with Egypt, Gaza does. The two parts of what would be Palestine are separated by Israel, and would probably make as impossible a state as Pakistan did, with one part eventually splitting off to become Bangladesh.

          And right now that separation is completely mediated by Israel, with Gazan students forbidden to attend university on the West Bank, families with members in both places unable to see each other, and this includes husbands and wives, parents and children, not just distant relatives.

          I have also evolved over time, though I had less of a Jewish and Zionist upbringing than David. I could never understand why the Palestinians were still living in DP camps in Lebanon and Jordan and not accepted and integrated into those countries. In a sense, I still don't understand it. But I also recognize that Palestinians see only one bit of land in the middle east as home, and that is Palestine. If we Jews have a need to return to a home (and yes, somewhere, someday, Jews in some part of the world will be expelled or oppressed to the point that they need a place to go) so do the Palestinians.

          And as I watch what happens in Israel, I feel like I am watching a loved one commit suicide. I also have begun to doubt that a two-state solution will ever be possible, and the more settlements are built and expanded, the more I feel that one state is the only possibility, and that a state with two classes of citizens can only survive for a while without being forced to change.

          We need a world in which we ask "What's happened to you?" more and "What's wrong with you?" less. (From a comment by Kossack nerafinator)

          by ramara on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 08:36:49 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Suicide is not too strong a word (10+ / 0-)
            And as I watch what happens in Israel, I feel like I am watching a loved one commit suicide. I also have begun to doubt that a two-state solution will ever be possible, and the more settlements are built and expanded, the more I feel that one state is the only possibility, and that a state with two classes of citizens can only survive for a while without being forced to change.
            I thought the separation wall on the West Bank, as ugly and tragic as it is, was the best chance Israel had.  The current Israeli government seems compelled to occupy both sides of it.  
          •  My mistake (5+ / 0-)

            Thank you, I meant Gaza.

            As to your dispair, I am in full agreement. It is hard to be hopeful, and the plight of the Palestinians is dire.

            •  I know you did. n/t (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              WinSmith, hester

              We need a world in which we ask "What's happened to you?" more and "What's wrong with you?" less. (From a comment by Kossack nerafinator)

              by ramara on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 10:55:47 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Egypt depends on US military aid (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                david78209

                and is therefore pretty much tied in to its border policy whatever it might prefer. They've got plenty of their own troubles these days as well.

                We need a world in which we ask "What's happened to you?" more and "What's wrong with you?" less. (From a comment by Kossack nerafinator)

                by ramara on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 10:57:21 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Israel also depends on US military aid (5+ / 0-)

                  or at least Israel gets a lot of aid from the US.  The US is also gives Israel a lot of diplomatic cover, including vetoes of UN Security Council resolutions.  More than once we've been the only country supporting them at the UN.
                  Imagine the reaction if a US citizen had been arrested and beaten up by police in any other country, for allegedly throwing rocks.  I hope staff from our embassy would be clamoring to visit him in the hospital and insisting on attending any court proceedings against him.    
                  I think Netanyahu is grossly overplaying his hand in dealing with the United States, and I wish John Kerry and President Obama would call him on it.  

                  We're all pretty strange one way or another; some of us just hide it better. "Normal" is a dryer setting.

                  by david78209 on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 03:10:50 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  We are also about (6+ / 0-)

                    to allow Israel to treat Palestinian Americans visiting Israel and Palestine differently from other visitors - something else we would not allow of any other country.

                    They already do treat them differently, and have several times refused them entry.

                    We need a world in which we ask "What's happened to you?" more and "What's wrong with you?" less. (From a comment by Kossack nerafinator)

                    by ramara on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 05:45:14 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

          •  It's suicide. (7+ / 0-)

            Israel could secure its future by agreeing to a two-state solution and not promoting settlement in the West Bank... but instead, it is slowly but steadily implementing a one state solution with every new settler home built (to say nothing of the wall built partially on Palestinian land).

            •  Could have, (4+ / 0-)

              But too much of Palestine is behind the wall now, and too much of Palestine is now "settled",

              Oslo was the last chance, and Israel's refusal to allow a viable Palestine, due to land and water greed, doomed that, the only remaining possibility is the One State, and I don't see Israel ever sharing it with the Palestinians.

            •  No, it couldn't have (5+ / 0-)
              Israel could secure its future by agreeing to a two-state solution and not promoting settlement in the West Bank
              Israel would have taken that deal in a heartbeat, but its negotiating partner would not have, ever.  Maybe that will change, but Palestinian side has never indicated that it would be willing to agree to a 2-state solution that would "secure [Israel's] future."

              Hill? What hill? No one said there was going to be a hill . . . . Was there a sign?

              by Jersey Jon on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 03:09:18 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Of Course Not, (11+ / 0-)

                It's not the responsibility of the Palestinians to guarantee the future of Israel, as Israel has demanded, since '76,

                Nor is it the Andorran's responsibility to secure Russia's future.

                It is a stupid, imaginary and ungrounded in history demand, made simply because the impossibility of agreeing to it makes peace impossible,

                It's a flying, rainbow farting Unicorn demand,

                Interestingly enough, not in the Sinai Peace a Treaty or Accords.

                So, between 1974 and 1976, something changed in Israel, that made the inclusion of a clause requiring a whole herd of flying, rainbow farting, unicorns, be delivered by the Palestinians,  then held, enjoyed and bred for some unspecified number of years, with no completely on defined incidents ever happening to the herd, or because of the herd,

                Before the Palestinians  get anything.

                Nothing like adding an impossibility clause to make sure peace is impossible.

                •  exactly (0+ / 0-)

                  All of this stuff was OBVIOUS.  How is that so many people missed the nature of these games.  Both sides played the game. at one time and another.

                  Newt 2012. Sociopath, adulterer, hypocrite, Republican.

                  by tikkun on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 08:27:52 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  Nuts....both sides played that game (0+ / 0-)

                Newt 2012. Sociopath, adulterer, hypocrite, Republican.

                by tikkun on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 08:25:50 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Israel grabbed onto Oslo (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Brecht, Tonedevil, bananapouch1

                and the settlements are the result as they rushed to create facts on the ground.

                I think Arafat had his own reasons for refusing, but I have seen the map that would have come out of Oslo, and there wasn't anything like a contiguous state.

                And now that Abbas has been more willing, new obstacles have been thrown up, such as recognition of Israel as a Jewish state, the national state of the Jewish people - suddenly recognizing Israel as an existing state with a right to exist is not enough because it might actually happen.

                We need a world in which we ask "What's happened to you?" more and "What's wrong with you?" less. (From a comment by Kossack nerafinator)

                by ramara on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 09:21:00 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Netanyahu doesn't seem to want peace (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  ramara, Brecht, Lepanto

                  The "Jewish state" thing might seem irrelevant, but the Palestinians are hesitant to agree, because it would jeopardize the rights of Palestinians who are Israeli citizens and the refugees.

                  In any case, I don't see why this needs to be part of the negotiations. It would be like if Abbas demanded that Israel recognizes Palestine as an Islamic state. This just stinks like a maneuver designed to scuttle the peace talks.

        •  The Occupied Territories were occupied by Israel. (28+ / 0-)

          As the Occupying Power, Israel (and NO other nation) has a clear duty towards the Palestinians that it has manifestly and completely failed to honor.

          These obligations are not optional for signatories to the Fourth Geneva Convention, which Israel has been since 1951.

          The reason for the conditions in the Occupied Territories lies squarely with Israel - trying to blame anyone else for it is a nonstarter.

          •  Abuse of history (10+ / 0-)

            The occupied terrories were occupied by Israel after four Arab nations lined up on the Israeli border to plan a fullscale invasion of Israel in 1967.

            Israel won the war and expanded its borders as part of protecting its homeland.

            The fact you ignore the reality of the Six Day War completely discredits you.  You can certainly make an argument that Israel should withdraw from the territories, but to act like Israel just walked in one day to Gaza and the West Bank is to abuse reality by turning it into a good/evil cartoon.  Just like a right winger.

            •  It's true. Israel got invaded by Arab states. (6+ / 0-)

              But that does not legitimize the settler enterprise. The Geneva Convention still applies to the West Bank.

            •  With every passing year (6+ / 0-)

              that separates us from the Six Day War, then, the continuing asymmetry of power between Israel and the Occupied Territories becomes more difficult to justify.

              What you suggest makes eminently good sense in the terms of 1967. It is more difficult to countenance when we are four and a half decades removed from the events that precipitated this territorial expansion.

              Nothing requires a greater effort of thought than arguments to justify the rule of non-thought. -- Milan Kundera

              by Dale on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 12:17:37 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Fair enough (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                mattoqp

                I would only point out that Israel made significant efforts to do so in the mid to late 1990s.  Rabin shook hands with a terrorist like Arafat in a longshot effort at peace and paid the price with his life.  Arafat was every bit the fraud that critics of Rabin feared, and the Second Intifada began.

                •  In reality, both Rabin and Arafat were terrorists, (0+ / 0-)

                  So shaking hands was not the social scandal you infer, or the magnanimous gesture, one one part only,

                  In a generous light, it was more two old warhorses recognizing that the past could not continue,

                  And then Rabin, was murdered, and not by a Palestinian.

                  •  false equivalency (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    mattoqp

                    But if it makes you feel better to 50/50 it, by all means.  

                    Rabin risked his reputation and his life partnering with a total fraud.  Arafat had no intention nor ability to make peace.  He moved his family from Palestine to France and was stealing millions during the "peace" process.

                    Rabin recognized the past could not continue.  Arafat saw a chance to legitimize himself in the eyes of the world and cash out. And he did.

                    Rabin knew he was risking his life and reputation in offering to give back Israeli land.  He was a hero and a martyr for peace.  

                    Arafat was a thug to the end who turned his back on peace and launched the Second Intifada from his safe haven in France.

                    But yeah. They're the same.

                    Maybe you can get a job for Wolf Blitzer and Chuck Todd.

                    •  Rabin stole his money in the approved (0+ / 0-)

                      Western Politician manner,

                      When he retired from the Army after a long career of killing Palestinian civilians, and entered politics, he had declared assets of a few thousand dollars,

                      His estate was valued at well over $70 million dollars. Not bad, he managed to save 350% of his salary and invest it every year.

                      Arafat's problem was delegating authority, the adversarial nature of the PLA, which came about because of the tribal and disparate roots of the organization, and of course, the fact that he really was surrounded by enemies and opponents his whole life.

                      Very few people are saints, even though they managed great things,

                      And given what they started with, what they had to work with, and the support they received, personally I think over his life, he achieved more things, and created more successes for his people, than Rabin.

                      The long running demonization, lies and slander of Arafat, which was ritually dropped shortly before the Peace Conferences, and restarted after, shortly if they went poorly, later if they went well, was restarted with a vengeance after Oslo.

                      Somebody had to be blamed for the failure and it sure wasn't going to be Israel or the US.  it continued well after his death.

                      Now of course, that it turns out he was murdered, and so is a Martyr like Rabin, the process of rehabilitating his image, is just starting.

                      In probably a decade or so, he will have probably been elevated to Sainthood in the MSM, mostly as a means to denigrate and belittle the current crop of Palestinian leaders.

            •  I'm sorry, I must have missed something there... (15+ / 0-)

              I always thought that the Six Day War had begun with Operation Focus, which was

              the opening airstrike by Israel at the start of the Six-Day War in 1967. It is sometimes referred to as "Sinai Air Strike". At 07:45 on June 5, 1967, the Israeli Air Force (IAF) under Maj. Gen. Mordechai Hod launched a massive airstrike that destroyed the majority of the Egyptian Air Force on the ground. By noon, the Egyptian, Jordanian and Syrian Air Forces, with about 450 aircraft, were destroyed. It was also very successful in disabling 18 airfields in Egypt, hindering Egyptian Air Force operations for the duration of the war, and remains one of the most successful air attack campaigns in military history.
              Technically a success, but it does pretty well trash out all factual basis for your comment and rather puts a crimp in your disdain as such.

              Additionally, given that Israel launched the initial attack of the war, they can hardly ignore the proscription within the Nuremburg Principles on wars of aggression, and the prohibition on acquiring territory by any such war.

              Finally, if as you claim Israel "expanded its borders as part of protecting its homeland", the Occupied Territories are part of Israel (setting aside that this is also illegal) and the Palestinian inhabitants are ipso facto citizens of Israel - and need to be given all the privileges that come with that.

              You can't have it both ways...

              With this comment, I think that I have gone as far afield from the actual subject of the diary as I am prepared to do, and from my perspective the discussion is closed.

              Let's not forget that what we're talking about here really involves four kids who were murdered, and one who was brutally beaten.  

              •  Yup, in the MSM, (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Lepanto

                Israel is always the victim , even though , they are the nation that started most of the wars,

              •  Same question to you. Are naval blockades an (0+ / 0-)

                act of war or not?

                That is certainly how some characterize Israel's use of this military strategy against Gaza.

                So why is it an act of war when engaged by Israel but not by Egypt?

                from wiki:

                Egypt's blockade of the Straits to Israeli ships and ships bound for Israel in 1956 and again in 1967 was, respectively, the catalyst to the Suez Crisis and the casus belli to the Six-Day War.[1][2]

                "Stay close to the candles....the staircase can be treacherous" (-8.38,-8.51)

                by JNEREBEL on Mon Jul 07, 2014 at 10:13:21 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  Revision of history (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Tonedevil

              Corporations, which should be the carefully restrained creatures of the law and the servants of the people, are fast becoming the people’s masters. -- President Grover Cleveland, 1888

              by edg on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 01:22:59 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  As hard as this is for you to accept, they're (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Tackle, BradyB, maregug, Hayate Yagami

          actually both people and A People.

          Not pawns.

          They're fully actualized human beings with agency, intelligence, and a right to self governance.

          The UN should give Iraq a restraining order against the US.

          by JesseCW on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 10:01:44 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Palestinians are pawns. You are right. (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          WinSmith, Kane in CA, Jersey Jon, G2geek

          Arab states have repeatedly denigrated Palestinian refugees, and treated them like scum in order to use them as pawns against Israel.

          If the Palestinians who fled to Lebanon, Syria etc. were granted citizenship and integrated with their new lands, whatever feelings they had to their homeland would disappear after 1-2 generations. Just like Germans today don't fight for a "right of return" to Silesia and East Prussia.

        •  The Intifadas succeeded in warping Israel (0+ / 0-)

          to the point that looking back one could say they killed the previous idea of Israel and ensured that it would be replaced by one that only pretends to itself to be what its promise had been and to slowly become something resembling what it came into being to struggle against...

          "Never again" (by others)... does not guarantee that "again" can be a mirror image of a sort - defending too vigorously with a barely restrained hatred will always turn defenders into their own worst enemy.

          For Palestinian extremists who always saw Israel as an evil adversary far more than reflected reality, their own acts of violence over the years have succeeded in ways they are oblivious to... they have ensured that Israel actions and intent comes more and more to resemble many Palestinian's vision of their nightmare foe.

          Pogo & Murphy's Law, every time. Also "Trust but verify" - St. Ronnie (hah...)

          by IreGyre on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 11:25:38 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  read up on the Second Intifada (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            buffan, Jersey Jon, mattoqp

            600+ suicide bombers blowing up schools, buses, shops, and restaurants for two years straight.

            Can you imagine the fear of letting you child ride on the bus?  Or go to school?  Or go to the corner store?

            The waves of terrorism that Arafat unleashed on Israel after Rabin gave his life pushing the peace process along and Ehud Barak offered even more is what "warped" Israel.

            What country would not respond as Israel did?

            Look at what we did to Afghanistan and Iraq after 19 terrorists attacked us.

            Imagine if the United States endured 600+ suicide bombers.  Nukes would probably be used.

            •  or the fear of marauding settlers (8+ / 0-)

              exacting their punishments?  Given that more Palestinians innocents got and get killed, and that the first intifada wasn't violent, and the second one was met in kind each step of the way, started by a stupid 'visit' by an Israeli 'official' to a religious site, while land continued to be confiscated and while children continued to be shot by soldiers, this is something of a mis-representation.  

              Revenge never was a democratic ideal.  

              plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

              by anna shane on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 12:18:33 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  so what you're saying is, if your kids are being (0+ / 0-)

              killed by the enemy and you can crush the enemy, you're justified in doing so.  But if your kids are being killed by the enemy but you're too weak to deal a fatal blow, then you shouldn't defend yourself at all.

              •  The Second Infantada is a sore point (0+ / 0-)

                And very frightening for the Israeli purists,

                It's the first time in Israeli history that the death rate between Palestinians and Israeli's was not 100:1.

                •  Amazing (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  TLS66, mattoqp

                  You people justify rampant, crippling, terrifying terrorism unleashed by Palestine after Israel spent years committing to the peace process, arming the P.L.O., legitimizing a fraud like Arafat in the long-shot hopes it might actually bring peace, relaxing check points, and offering land (something no other nation on earth is expected to do after expanding borders after a war).  

                  Israel reached out its hand and was shit on.  

                  And you have the gall to sit around and demand Israel do it all over again.

            •  The homicide rate during the intifada, (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Hayate Yagami, Tonedevil

              counting deaths on BOTH sides (2000-2008) was per capita lower than the homicide rate in New York City for the same period.

              Fiat justitia ruat caelum "Let justice be done though the heavens fall."

              by bobdevo on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 06:01:10 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  I often find (7+ / 0-)

          That the endless paeans to complexity and nuance in this case are obfuscatory rather than enlightening. The American genocide of our native population was a nuanced and complex action, driven as much by private actors as by state factors, geography, demography, and ideology. It doesn't really change the basic facts on the ground.

          Yes, Israel has sometimes been a geopolitical victim. That is the nature of international politics. It has also sometimes been the instigator. That is also the nature of international politics. Contrary to the Zionist Dream, Israel has been no more or less moral than the other state actors in the region, working with sangfroid towards Clausewitzian and other such political solutions.

          As regards 1967, if you read the archives of the time, the expansion has been justified as "security" much in the same way Jim Crow was in the South, much in the same way the ethnic cleansing and massacres in 1948 (which Mr. Gershon mentions, but others like David Ben-Burion, or Benny Morris, or any number of other Israeli establishment figures have more or less admitted.)

          The point being, of course, that Zionism has always been a racialist and indeed racist enterprise. That is not to deride or attack people with the weight of history, but simply to bring consciousness. I understand the appeal of Zionism and I respect the honest anguish and compassion that Zionists here expend on both the Palestinian and the Israeli population.

          Yet Clio is a stern muse and durst not change her bearing to suit our needs. And thus the truth: the beginnings of the settlement project, the breaking of Old Arab-Jewish solidarity in Palestine in labor unions and guilds (read Morris, Hirsch or Masatha on "Labor Zionism"), and most of the wars which broke the idea of an independent Palestine (to say nothing of the agitation which made the original mandate declaration rather unfair) were all driven by the kind of Leftist/Kibbutnik/Socialists that we would admire in other policies.

          Look at the history of the International Socialists and the tension between Zionist and Non-Zionist organizers within (particularly the Jewish sort.)

          If we really grapple with history, we can't say that Israel's current avarice and inhumanity towards the Palestinian is an ahistorical break as a result of Likud madness. Rather, they represent the apotheosis of a colonial movement --Botha in South Africa, Leopold in the Congo, and any number of distastateful names throughout history-- supported by the entire weight of all the Zionist political parties in Israel proper (and within the United States, for both of our major parties are Zionists par excellence) with tactical considerations manifesting themselves as grand political differences when they are not.

          Once we look at that history, then we can talk about honest reparations (something the Palestinians, like African-Americans in this country are quite entitled to.) Then we can talk about a binational state. We can talk about encouraging ethnic and racial mingling and harmony.

          But if whenever history is dredged up we instead assume a defensive crouch about "fairness," we break the natural flow of argument and dialog. In this respect, objecting to Israeli history being mentioned in largely negative terms because the Palestinians are no angels (and who is, really?) is no different than objecting to a discussion of rape culture because "not all men do that." It is not so much a way to elucidate complexity as it is a way to assert moral superiority and to derail the conversation.

          P.S. Egypt and Jordan in particular have been very much guilty of using and abusing the Palestinian population, but their reasoning, per those defending Israel here is largely no different than Israel's: defending its own citizenry (Jordan had to deal with an ascendant PLO which sought to overthrow its Hashemite dynasty; Egypt has long been leery of strident Palestinian liberation movements), and trying to gain geopolitical advantage. Where the comparison falls short is that neither Egypt nor Jordan rely (or indeed have a raison d'etre) in a racist colonial movement. Nor do either have the ultimate power to end the conflict --as Israel does. I will certainly agree with you that some leftists give these entities a pass, for they do have a role in maintaining the conflict and not a noble one at that.

          P.P.S. I'll honestly admit that I have no idea what America's own foibles have to do with your argument. As liberals, do we not oppose such policies domestically? Is there not in fact a nexus (see: neoconservatives) of Israeli and American politics that in fact feeds the worst tendencies in both countries? Do we not then, as politically engaged liberals have a moral and tactical duty to strike at this behemoth?

          If we are to worry about being completely without sin before taking up the sword against injustice, we are better off falling on the sword ourselves.

          •  Talk about obfuscatory (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            TLS66, JNEREBEL

            Hidden in your word-thicket is your view that Israel proper, within the green line, is not a legitimate nation that stands on a footing equal to its neighbors, allies and enemies.  Am I right?

            Hill? What hill? No one said there was going to be a hill . . . . Was there a sign?

            by Jersey Jon on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 03:28:27 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Word-thicket? (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              oldliberal, stargaze

              Oh dear. I had rather hoped for a word hedge or a word topiary, at the least. I'm no E.B. White, but I had hoped to avoid being a Sarah Palin. My apologies for the prolixity if there was any misunderstanding, though I felt it rather condign to the situation.

              Anywho, to answer your question with utmost concision: No. Israel, to the extent that it practices policies out of the norm with what we understand about a democratic and equitable state-paradigm, where the rights of all are held in equal sanctity is not a legitimate state, anymore than any other state (and unfortunately there are far too many) that practices the same policies.

              But that answer is a bit short, and I would like to elucidate, with your forbearance, on what I feel deserves a thoughtful and rather lengthy response.

              Legitimacy. It's a word that has a great deal of cachet to us Jews and it speaks to fears (some overblown, some somewhat justified) of pogroms, and antisemitism, and ghettoes.

              Israel within the green line is legitimate in the political respect. It is a country with clearly acknowledged suzerainty and control over its own borders. Nor would it be a good thing for it not to be; either in geopolitical or humanitarian terms.

              Is the project of Israel ideologically legitimate? No. I have covered that at length in this and other posts (rather the opposite of obfuscatory but my own mediocre skill as a writer may have undone me.) Because the Zionism that facilitated Israel was based on a misunderstanding --a willful one-- of the local demography and geography of the region. You might call this set of misunderstandings under its own ideological formalistic structure for what it is: Orientalism, which is itself a form  of racism as essential writers like Khoutry or Said have covered with eloquence and breadth of knowledge far beyond poor me (not a Middle Eastern Studies major.) One of the facets of such an ideology is at the root of the conflict: the barbarization of Arabs in particular as not being quite a demonym of people, but rather a transliterated equivalent to the Ashkenazi Jew's burden.

              Zionism is also an ideology predicated at least in part on the notion that antisemitism is unlike any other human phenomenon and cannot be managed. In some respects, I feel there should be a Yiddish idiom or saying to the regards that Zionism is so intent on crying with a full belly, that it will pay no heed to the tear-tracks on the faces of the starving. Which is to say that Zionism predicates at least part of its own self-reasoning on the conceit that gentiles must perforce be mindlessly and savagely brutal to Jews --itself a rather racist notion--, willfully disregarding the many strides that humanity has made politically (European nationalism is still problematic, to give one example but we have largely eliminated major polity wars of religion.) There are other ideologemes of Zionism that rely on a rather corrupted understanding of Socialism (look up the history of Labor Zionism and how it rather shattered existing structures which mediated between Workers of all ethnicities in Palestine/Transjordan and Capital.) And if you think me a flawed messenger given that I myself am not a Zionist (though I make no moral truck with those who are, if we are agreed on the abhorrence of the Occupation, and if we are both committed to some type of solution, be it one-state or two-state), my historical reading of these facts, the narrative that I have discerned is based on a variety of writers I mentioned above and below, like Morris, Masatha, Hirsch, etc. Mr. Morris himself is the ne plus ultra Zionist, and he will be the first to tell you that Israel was founded in large part through ethnic displacement (violent and aggressive) and the destruction of the existing peace and culture. Or you might feel free to look at the primary sources, and the actions of Israel's Founding Father figures like Ben-Gurion, Rabin, etc.

              The final element of legitimacy that I would like to touch on is the question of moral legitimacy. As a liberal, my values (non-violence, equitable distribution of economic resources, open dialog, a pacifistic culture, etc.) are universal. Israel does rather clearly fail in meeting those criteria. It is not unique (as I noted, Zionism is essentially a Colonialist movement) but just as I oppose racist politics and policies, and imperialist politics and policies in the United States (and elsewhere: Russia and the Ukraine, Turkey and its Kurds, China and Tibet, and on and on) I feel myself no less bound (particularly as a White Jewish man in whose identity-name such policies are justified by and give privilege to) to oppose them in Israel.

              There are many other questions which your rather pointed inquiry (I hope in the spirit of dialog) suggest, but that would be an even lengthier post, and I will not be so self-indulgent as to inflict even more of my argle and/or bargle on you fine people. Questions of political tactics (two-state or one state, which I discuss with the lovely Mokurai down below, for example), but those are not salient to the essential moral parameters of this part of the discussion.

              I hope this was if not edifying (I do not expect you to agree with me, but I may be pleasantly surprised) that you at least understand my moral stance.

              “Truth does not become more true by virtue of the fact that the entire world agrees with it, nor less so even if the whole world disagrees with it.”
              - Maimonides

              Or at the very least, that is my truth, for I would prefer not to be so presumptuous.

              •  and the weeds thicken (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                TLS66, JNEREBEL

                Maybe I can hack my way through. You say

                Which is to say that Zionism predicates at least part of its own self-reasoning on the conceit that gentiles must perforce be mindlessly and savagely brutal to Jews --itself a rather racist notion--, willfully disregarding the many strides that humanity has made politically (European nationalism is still problematic, to give one example but we have largely eliminated major polity wars of religion.)
                So calling out anti-semitism and then trying to do something about it is "conceit" and "racist"?  Not only do I call bullshit, but it sounds like those white, Christian tea-partiers who claim to be the victims of racism.  And your solution is that the world has "made strides", so Jews should just chill.  Never mind that Israel's neighbors are all Judenrein, and that they have largely avowed their desire to eliminate Israel.  Seriously, don't you think that Egypt and Syria would destroy Israel from the Green Line to the Mediterranean if they could do it without consequence?  And your worry is European Nationalism?

                Anyway, I think I understand your moral stance, and I disagree.  How many extant nations, including our own, are not "colonial enterprises?"  How many extant nations, especially the ones that, with full bellies, weep for the Palestinians but do nothing to help them, "practice policies out of the norm with what we understand about a democratic and equitable state-paradigm...."

                Israel, and Jews, are different because of their unique history.  This site, this diary and the pile-on comments demonstrate this.  

                Hill? What hill? No one said there was going to be a hill . . . . Was there a sign?

                by Jersey Jon on Mon Jul 07, 2014 at 07:24:07 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Do you have a difficult time (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Lepanto, stargaze

                  With certain words?

                  So calling out anti-semitism and then trying to do something about it is "conceit" and "racist"?
                  I don't understand the need for quotes but to further your understanding I will again indulge.

                  A conceit in this case refers to an idea. In this case, a mistaken one. As far as racism, as someone committed to anti-racism politics, Zionism is frankly counter-productive in fighting antisemitism; it has inflamed a great deal of the Muslim world, it forfeits the field of anti-racism politics and making the case that Jews could, should, and must co-exist with gentiles in favor of an armed and belligerent citadel. It temporizes and makes concrete what should be an ideal.

                  And yes, it certainly is racist to presume that gentiles will always be antisemitic to the point where Jews are always in physical danger. Both to Jews, for assuming that we have some sort of inherent quality which calls irrational hatred forward (victim-blaming) and to gentiles for assuming that they cannot be educated contrary to an overwhelming impulse to act barbarically.

                  We all have ingrained prejudices but the politics of anti-racism lie in recognizing that many of these prejudices are neither permanent nor irrevocable.

                  Not only do I call bullshit, but it sounds like those white, Christian tea-partiers who claim to be the victims of racism.
                  Except post-Zionism does not rely on claims of victimhood to make its moral case. Zionism does. Furthermore, privileged white people (privileged socioeconomically much in the same way we --particularly Ashkenazi-- Jews are) have no concrete case for reverse-racism. That's pretty clearly the mantle of white supremacy trying to find moral high ground, and one has to be either willfully obtuse or very much a zealot in the counter-position to find such rankness in a principled anti-Colonial position.

                  Do you really want to discuss this, or would you prefer to rail against me because I disagree with you on the moral and practical need for an Israel?

                  Seriously, don't you think that Egypt and Syria would destroy Israel from the Green Line to the Mediterranean if they could do it without consequence?
                  Seriously, don't you think that Calormene and Jadis would destroy Narnia from Cair Paravel to Beruna Ford?

                  Holy mackerel, are these kinds of red herrings even Kosher? We were, as far as I am aware, discussing the moral legitimacy of Israel --or more narrowly the moral legitimacy of its inhumane occupation and attendant policies. At no point did I mention Israel's war-making capacity. In all honesty in a fair one-state solution (I rather like the ring of the Levantine Republic), the successor entity to the IDF would likely have even more of an edge against its Arab neighbors.

                  Not only is the question irrelevant, it's frankly pretty dumb given the history of the region.

                  I reiterate. Would you like to discuss this rationally or would you prefer to shadowbox? So far I think you might have a TKO against your imagined opponent.

                  And your worry is European Nationalism?
                  You do realize what an example is? Reread the reference to European Nationalism.
                  How many extant nations, including our own, are not "colonial enterprises?"
                  Very few. We should oppose such ongoing enterprises and ask for massive reparations for those who engage in said policies and their attendant evils --racism, militarism, empire; the United States was built on black and First Nation suffering. It was built on the exploitation of the brown, the yellow, and the red. France is islamophobic and incredibly racist in its approach to its immigrant problem. All of them must be opposed with all the vigor which we on the Left can bring. And yes, poor countries can't get a pass on this either; China has crushed Tibet, India has problems treating its Muslims fairly, Russia has oppressed its ethnic minorities, women deserve full rights in the ME; Jews deserve emancipation and a right to their confiscated property in Egypt and sundry nations (just as Palestinians deserve the same in Israel.)
                  How many extant nations, especially the ones that, with full bellies, weep for the Palestinians but do nothing to help them, "practice policies out of the norm with what we understand about a democratic and equitable state-paradigm...."
                  Again, very few, if any. What is your point? See above.  
                  Israel, and Jews, are different because of their unique history.  This site, this diary and the pile-on comments demonstrate this.
                  You know what interest I have noted here? The interest of a liberal Jewish community that finds its Zionism rightly at odds with its liberal values. The distaste of a wider community for the fact that we, as American taxpayers provide massive subsidies to an immoral occupation, and that relative to many of the other injustices which we are relatively powerless to stop or mitigate, we have a unique leverage to help end the occupation. I think that's a healthy interest. Do you suggest something untoward or sinister about the passion displayed here? Please explain.

                  Your final argument seems to rely on assertion and tautology. Jews are doubtlessly unique (as is literally every ethnic group, by definition.) Unless your argument is that we are special, and therefore we have certain prerogatives, up to and including snuffing out the Palestinian underfoot. That is frankly a highly problematic argument and one that I am appalled (but not necessarily surprised) a supposed liberal would make.

                  •  I guess I gotta, but it's tough to boil (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    JNEREBEL

                    your comment down to its essence.  Also, I'm trying to engage in dialogue; that's what this is.  It isn't shadowboxing.  I'm addressing your words.  I know, I know, I've called you wordy.  But that doesn't mean that I'm not trying to talk to you.

                    I have no problem with certain words; I was using quote marks to indicate that they were your words.  That's all.

                    You say:

                    And yes, it certainly is racist to presume that gentiles will always be antisemitic to the point where Jews are always in physical danger. Both to Jews, for assuming that we have some sort of inherent quality which calls irrational hatred forward (victim-blaming) and to gentiles for assuming that they cannot be educated contrary to an overwhelming impulse to act barbarically.
                    So you're saying that it is a mere presumption that Jews are in physical danger, and a racist one at that?  Jews ARE in physical danger, especially the ones in Israel, and this is so BECAUSE of anti-semitism.  You must see this.  There IS an irrational hatred directed uniquely at Jews from both ends of the political spectrum and both ends of the educational spectrum.  This fact is obvious. And your solution is that gentiles can, at some point, be educated to "counteract their overwhelming impulse for barbarity."  Ha.  When someone wants to punch you, an American Askenazi Jew, in the nose, is that what you do?  You say, "good sir, allow me to educate you so that we can counteract your overwhelming impulse for barbarously kicking my ass."  

                    And by the way, this is precisely why I asked what you said was a "red herring" question about whether Syria and Egypt would, heart of hearts, push Israel into the sea -- a question that you failed to answer, tellingly.  Ya see, Syria (an Arab nation upon which Israel does not encroach) and Iran (a non-Arab nation upon which Israel does not encroach) have this

                    overwhelming impulse to act barbarically
                    toward Israel (and women, gays, Jews, Copts).  This is the context of Israel's formation and continued existence.  You ignore this, perhaps based on your personal experience -- you're safe, you're a Jew, so all Jews must be safe.  

                    So I guess you want to adhere to a

                    principled anti-Colonial position.
                    .  So do you oppose the very examples you cite of immoral colonial enterprises?  China? India? France? the US?  Or do you subscribe only to the BDS movement?  If my hunch is correct, then it's pretty obvious that and intelligent, informed guy like you can't just be engaging in such inconsistency out of ignorance or mistake.  Whether you believe it or not, something much more malevolent is at play.  

                    Finally, to be clear, I believe that Israel should negotiate in good faith to an end of the occupation and a retreat to near the Green Line.  Israel should do this for moral reasons alone, but also because the occupation is disastrous for Israel's future.    But that doesn't mean that Israel, as it has been conceived, is a bad or immoral idea.  Quite the contrary.

                    I would have more to say to you, but I'm out of time.

                    Hill? What hill? No one said there was going to be a hill . . . . Was there a sign?

                    by Jersey Jon on Tue Jul 08, 2014 at 07:42:59 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Well (0+ / 0-)
                      So you're saying that it is a mere presumption that Jews are in physical danger, and a racist one at that?  Jews ARE in physical danger, especially the ones in Israel, and this is so BECAUSE of anti-semitism.
                      The dispossessed Palestinians need no anti-semitism to justify their anger, but it being relatively widespread is no surprise. As I've noted, the establishment of Israel, contrary to the intentions of at least the early Zionists (I have a great deal of respect for Herzl, for example) rather inflamed local opinion against Jews.

                      In any case, you're still fighting a strawman. Note that I've repeatedly said that antisemitism is a problem and one which needs a specialized politics to fight it. With that being said, it is not a special or a particularly unique form of hatred and makes no argument by itself for a state even if Jews are owed (as are African-Americans in the United States) some form of reparations for mistreatment.
                       

                      There IS an irrational hatred directed uniquely at Jews from both ends of the political spectrum and both ends of the educational spectrum.
                      Sure. Also of Muslims in the United States. What's your point?
                      And your solution is that gentiles can, at some point, be educated to "counteract their overwhelming impulse for barbarity."  Ha.
                      Shadowboxing again. All I said is that Israel --rightfully-- is a silly distraction. Not only does it cheapen Judaism, not only does it reveal the liberalism of many of us to be oh-so-easily beholden to ethnic special pleading, but it does nothing about whatever wider trends in antisemitism surface except offer a "safe home for the Jews" which even in your line of argument is rather stupid because according to you, this neighborhood of the world is uniquely dangerous, barbaric, and savage (but certainly these are not racialist or racist tropes, no?) and we are if anything concentrating Jews in a single nation-state where they can be more easily targeted.

                      In essence, you accept the transactional nature of this violence and then privilege Jewish safety above all other ethical concerns. Do we now have, for example, moral purchase to completely wipe out the Palestinians if necessary to maintain "the demographic character" of Israel? How far should we as Americans be willing to go for this state?

                      That is my point. Establish a state on the basis of ethnic exclusivity and you will only get bad things happening, even if your ostensible reasons (and if you read the work of many early Zionists I don't respect, they are essentially European Imperialists spinning reasons for their playing at Empire) may have started out nobly.

                      And by the way, this is precisely why I asked what you said was a "red herring" question about whether Syria and Egypt would, heart of hearts, push Israel into the sea -- a question that you failed to answer, tellingly.
                      Because it was, is, and remains a rather stupid question. Not even pausing to deconstruct the notion that any state would opt to eliminate a geopolitical rival (which Israel certainly is, irrespective of its internal make-up) if it found itself at the point of minimal consequences, but should I point out that both Syria and Egypt have largely abided by peace with Israel? Mubarak (and Sisi now) was/is rather chummy with Israel's security structure, for goodness' sake.

                      You're trying (and go on below about how awful these countries are --and that's true by the way--) to change the subject from the morality of Israel's occupation to the morality of the wider Middle East. It's not unlike the British trying to deflect criticisms of Empire in Africa by pointing out how "savage" the Zulu were. It also relies on rather Orientalist tropes of Muslims driven not primarily by political concerns (a powerful state of a different ethnic character with a history of war in any region would rightly be seen as something of an irritant) but by the irrational hatreds of a primitive people.

                      You ignore this, perhaps based on your personal experience -- you're safe, you're a Jew, so all Jews must be safe.  
                      The vast majorities of Jews are safe worldwide. We are an incredibly powerful and privileged minority. It doesn't mean antisemitism doesn't exist, isn't a relatively big problem, and shouldn't be fought (with force when necessary) or that we shouldn't work for the civil rights of Jews in other countries (particularly the ME), but that there's no moral hazard or immediate peril that even remotely justifies the existence of Israel as an ethnic rump-state.
                      So do you oppose the very examples you cite of immoral colonial enterprises?  China? India? France? the US?  Or do you subscribe only to the BDS movement?
                      I don't buy goods made in France or Britain, for example, nor India and China. I vote and work for the most Left option in the United States. I work with the Islamic Frnch Student's Committee (as a Francophile and someone who often studies abroad myself) --an alliance of secularists and Muslims who prefer to fight the burgeoning racism of the French State. And yes I subscribe to the BDS movement, but it is one of many endeavors and not the one most dear to my heart (climate change is.)

                      I'm not sure what this question is supposed to prove if anything? If you were to be an arch-Zionist above all things (like say Sheldon Adelson) would I be able to get away with the weird and clumsy innuendos you display just a few sentences down? No, because that's just a political opinion. It's a mistaken and immoral one, in my opinion, but I have no problems with Israel-fixated activism either in the pro or con position. Life is passion and far too short to be wasted pretending to care about stuff you have no investment in.

                      I mean, thanks for assuming stuff about me, it's rather interesting to have a biographer's eye foisted on you over the internet of all things, but I don't get this unless you're trying to say that I am being unfair to Israel because reasons.

                      Whether you believe it or not, something much more malevolent is at play.  
                      Are you accusing someone of my political persuasion of being a crypto anti-semite?
                      Finally, to be clear, I believe that Israel should negotiate in good faith to an end of the occupation and a retreat to near the Green Line.
                      What does this mean? Near the Green Line? Does Israel maintain control over such a state's borders or air-traffic? Do its separation roads and walls still hem in Palestinian movement? What about the settlements? And does Gaza get a connection to this burgeoning state?

                      I would support something along those lines, with more territory for the Palestinians. Reparations for those displaced by the Nakba, as well as a right of return (the Palestinians could concede a limited right if Israel admitted culpability and apologized, for example, with something along the lines of the Camp David parameters with ~100-250K Palestinians allowed back.) Israel would have to forbear control over the roads that limit Palestinian movement and both hypothetical countries could establish a customs and travel union, to make work safe, convenient, etc. More land would have to be swapped (largely in favor of the Palestinians, though at this point the Israelis would still get a disproportionate share of land) with the new state of Palestine getting a physical slice of coast in the Levant, as well as a connection to Gaza. In return, obsolete political parties like Hamas could be disbanded or forswear violence, and Palestine could enter into a mutual defense arrangement with Israel outside of arrangements with the allegedly hostile nations you mention.

                      But that would be a non-starter, even if Palestinians are owed more Israeli concessions than otherwise under international law. Barak offered a much stingier map (17% of historic Palestine to Palestinians), with major areas of Israeli control, no water rights for new Palestine, etc. and it pretty much made him dead politically. There's no wherewithal within Zionism inside Israel to negotiate on these lines because ultimately as you have shown with your own attitude, some (far too many, unfortunately) people believe that Jews are owed more in this conflict.

                      Hence why I support one state. It could for example officially recognize Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and whatever else, while offering rights for all people. But for some reason, many of the same people that would declaim say a whites-only United States kvetch about the demographic purity of Israel being paramount. It's creepy, and skeevy, but not altogether surprising when one remembers his Orwell:

                      All nationalists have the power of not seeing resemblances between similar sets of facts. A British Tory will defend self-determination in Europe and oppose it in India with no feeling of inconsistency. Actions are held to be good or bad, not on their own merits, but according to who does them, and there is almost no kind of outrage — torture, the use of hostages, forced labour, mass deportations, imprisonment without trial, forgery, assassination, the bombing of civilians — which does not change its moral colour when it is committed by ‘our’ side.
                      P.S. I did not quibble with this misstatement in the corpus above because there was no need, but I should point out to any readers of this sprawling discussion that Israel does in point of fact occupy part of Syria. The Golan Heights, videlicet, with all the subsequent consequences for terrain, water rights (which have as much as anything to do with disputes in the region), etc.
        •  The situation (5+ / 0-)

          is that Israel is an apartheid state.  (Desmond Tutu said this, and I trust his opinion on whether something is apartheid or not.)

          There can be no "nuance" about apartheid, and "complexity" serves only to obscure the brutal truth of apartheid.

          And the Six Day War was 50 years ago and lasted six or so days.  Anybody harping on it needs to join the 21st century already.

        •  bingo! Any Arab state could solve this, by.... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          TLS66

          ... setting aside some land in their own territory, to create a New Palestine.  Many of the Arab states have the land and the financial means to make it so attractive and compelling that Palestinians would flock to it as quickly as they could arrange the travel.

          But they don't.

          Why the hell not?

           

          We got the future back. Uh-oh.

          by G2geek on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 06:39:01 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  So give up your house, (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Tonedevil, protectspice

            Your farm, or your home, or your I ndustry, your family history and your graves, and move to, outside the US,

            Give it all over to a Guatemalan family as reparations for the US genocide there,

            cut your family history at root, tree and branch and take up life as a second class citizen in Uzbekistan,

            I dare you, double dog dare you.

      •  A Common Tale (15+ / 0-)

        When my youngest brother entered kindergarten (1963), my mom went back to school.  She took a class on Milton and her professor was James Delaplane, a mild mannered scholar with an Oklahoma accent akin to Elizabeth Warren's.

        Our families became friends, canoeing in the summer and sledding in the winter.  At our Quaker picnics, I'll never forget the delight Jim took in climbing to the top of a two-story grain shed, getting on a giant rope swing and swinging out across the full 80 foot width of an octagonal barn.

        About 10 years ago, professor Delaplane (long retired and then 82 years old) took a trip to the West Bank to stand with Palestinians who were trying to protect their olive groves from Jewish colonists who wanted to cleanse the area of Arabs by destroying the groves, which were their livelihood.

        With no physical or verbal provocation and acting with complete impunity, a Jewish colonist shoved professor Delaplane to the ground and kicked him repeatedly in the side, breaking three ribs.  This happened in front of and less than ten feet away from a member of the IDF, who did nothing to stop the incident.  No one was arrested; no one with any authority cared.  The U.S. embassy offered no help and the State Department ignored our old friend.

        Once back in the U.S., professor Delaplane sought the help of his senators -- Feingold and Kohl. Neither even deigned to reply.

        This aggression will not stand, man.

        by kaleidescope on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 01:36:33 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I had a colleague who knew Rachel Corrie's parents (6+ / 0-)

      These tales are reminders that we are just not far removed from the happenings in the Middle East, both its joys and its lamentations.

    •  And let's be clear: This child who was brutally by (34+ / 0-)

      Israeli soldiers IS AN AMERICAN CITIZEN. The US government needs to protect its citizens. There needs to be unrelenting pressure on the Israeli government until this American teenager is released from prison and safely returned to the US, he receives compensation from the Israeli government, and the people responsible for this assault are brought to justice.
       

  •  A sore test for the assumption of good faith (36+ / 0-)

    In such situations, I imagine that all parties think that they are doing what they must in order to protect their community.

    But as things continue to go the wrong way, it becomes easy to justify, as a "response", brutal behavior which in turn becomes a provocation for the next round of the spiral.

    No matter what potential resolutions there may be (I can't begin to imagine the challenges associated with elections in any kind of single state solution), the most important thing is not to shy away from an unflinching portrayal of facts as they occur, and as chronicled here.

    With sadness,

    •  watched a story of WWII pow's rescue; forgiveness (8+ / 0-)

      It was on CBS's Sunday Morning program, and I can't remember the vet's name. His story is being told in a new book, Unbroken.
      After his return from a POW camp, he was unable to control the drinking he used to escape the pain of his torturous incarceration. It was a very young Billy Graham and his congregation that taught this vet to forgive.
      What he found,and what they taught him, was that the hatred that grew within him was an even worse enemy than the one that had tortured him unmercifully. That one realization, changed his life and made the past bearable. Its a wonderful story in its essence and starkness against man's inhumanity to other men.
      It should be easy for progressives to point out to the religious right that Jesus also had strong messages about mercy and charity. Its true that charity begins at home, it just doesn't have to end there.

      •  I was always amazed that my father, and his (9+ / 0-)

        friends and acquaintances who fought alongside him against the Japanese in World War II, showed no animosity at all toward the "Japs" after the war.
          During the war, the Japanese and the Marines hated each other and killed each other without mercy. Although not official policy, there was a saying: "We're the Marines. We don't take prisoners."
           I've since read memoirs written by Marines who fought in the Pacific. They describe the hatred they felt as though it was a curiosity, something really not a part of them that they no longer felt or understood.
           If hatred that fierce can be so quickly set aside, I'm sure that there can be reconciliation between the Israelis and Palestinians, if the Israelis ever decide to relent in their drive to destroy the Palestinians as a people.
           

      •  Louis Zamperini, the book, "Unbroken" (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Bluesee, Jersey Jon

        It was very popular several years ago. I read it to my Dad. Absolutely amazing story.

        Zamperini died last week, on July 2, at age 97.

        He was an Olympic athlete who competed in the 1936 Berlin olympics, and was singled out by the Japanese because of that. He was very well known.

        NYT Obit w/photos

        Angelina Jolie is directing the movie now. Hope she does a good job, but if not, the book is fantastic.

        Enjoy the San Diego Zoo's panda cam! And support Bat World Sanctuary

        by Fonsia on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 10:41:36 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Louie Zamperini (0+ / 0-)

        A fantastic book about quite a hero.  Recommend it to all.

        Hill? What hill? No one said there was going to be a hill . . . . Was there a sign?

        by Jersey Jon on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 03:31:48 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Jews can't coexist with Arabs who hate them (13+ / 0-)

    in "peace". Israel cannot be non-Jewish in character and will never be, no matter what it takes. There cannot be a 2nd holocaust.

    And since both sides cannot coexist, at least not this century, there has to be forced separation. Arab countries can help by bringing their troops to patrol the Palestinian side, and Israel will patrol their own side.

    But we won't let Jews be a minority in their own state in the Middle East.

  •  Peace. (23+ / 0-)
    The humanist in me just wants all of this to end. Wants all of the suffering and pain on both sides to end.
    I don't understand why peace is so hard for humans. All around us is war and violence and I just don't understand.

    /sigh

    This better be good. Because it is not going away.

    by DerAmi on Sat Jul 05, 2014 at 10:18:33 PM PDT

  •  There cannot exist a "Jewish" state (59+ / 0-)

    that is also a democratic state. The two cannot coexist.

    A democratic state cannot have any other essential characteristics. A democratic state is either democratic and democratic only or it is something else.

    This is the nature of democracy and of democratic theory: a democracy is beholden to those whose policies it effects.

    A democracy essentially answers to the people. Because people are born, move, die, etc.—because demographic change is an unassailable empirical reality—it can have no other essential characteristics.

    The moment another essential characteristic is added—Jewishness, Christianness, Whiteness, Blackness, whatever—what you have is no longer a democracy, because if Jewishness (or Whiteness, or Blackness) must be maintained, then the state cannot respond to or be representative of changing demographics, and thus, it is no longer a democratic state.

    The dream of a "democratic Jewish state" is impossible. The state can be Jewish, or it can be democratic. It cannot be both without changing the definitions of these words.

    -9.63, 0.00
    "Liberty" is deaf, dumb, and useless without life itself.

    by nobody at all on Sat Jul 05, 2014 at 10:25:28 PM PDT

    •  simplistic and rigid and not grounded in reality (5+ / 0-)

      there are Christian and Islamic states that are democratic. So that blows your "democratic state cannot have any other characteristics" out of the water. If things change on the ground, those nations can adapt and either change their character at that point or stop being democratic, or just not care.

      Israel can afford to be democratic and Jewish while Jews are the large majority. If they at some point will no longer be a majority (not anytime soon) then they can address the "democratic" part then.

      Until then Israel is a democratic Jewish state regardless of your made up definitions.

      •  wow-ee, that's not helpful (7+ / 0-)

        but then you see things differently than I do.

        Dear NSA: I am only joking.

        by Shahryar on Sat Jul 05, 2014 at 10:55:38 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Note use of the word "essentially." (8+ / 0-)

        Look it up. If the state changes as demographic shifts occur, then it was not "essentially" Jewish in the first place. (And, of course, peaceful change in response to the gestalt wishes of those affected by state governance is emphatically not what we see in Israel.)

        I would argue that what Israel has sought is an essentially Jewish state, which is incompatible with an essentially democratic one.

        -9.63, 0.00
        "Liberty" is deaf, dumb, and useless without life itself.

        by nobody at all on Sat Jul 05, 2014 at 11:00:37 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I understood you quite well (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          mattoqp, sandbox

          but you are trying to create purity where it does not exist. Essentially democratic states only exist in theory and most "democracies" are nowhere to being pure or essential and have only existed for but a sliver of time in the history of Humanity.

          What rankled me is that you applied your pure theory just to Israel and ignored that it this purity does not really exist in the world. But you felt within your rights to condemn Israel to not adhering to this purity by also being Jewish.

          •  The difference is that few other states openly (16+ / 0-)

            claim to pursue two incompatible essentialities at once.

            You may say that the U.S. is not essentially democratic in practice, and you'd be absolutely correct, but at least its aspirations toward this aim are not oxymoronic on their face.

            The same cannot be true for Israel, whose self-identity as a nation and state is openly and clearly oxymoronic to any student of political theory.

            So far as we are able to empirically and historically establish, the goals of Israel cannot coexist because the two central goals are openly contradictory to one another.

            This is somewhat different from falling short of a single, clear aspiration.

            As a metaphor, there is a difference between saying "I aspire to be perfectly good" and "I aspire to be perfectly good and perfectly evil at the same time."

            The first is a matter of pursuit and pragmatism—you will always fall short, but you can always also try harder. The second is simply wrongheaded, since the pursuit of either goal directly undermines the other.

            -9.63, 0.00
            "Liberty" is deaf, dumb, and useless without life itself.

            by nobody at all on Sat Jul 05, 2014 at 11:14:04 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Israel is a democracy for the Jews (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              mattoqp, Jersey Jon

              in much the same way as France is a democracy for the French, where French means having a certain Western civilization character. Everyone can vote in Israel, both Jews and Arabs. Same in France, their non white population can vote. But the Jewish character has to be preserved just like the French character has to be preserved. There are many nations like that. Nation states have the sovereign right to determine their Character.

              Israel is Jewish, France is French, Germany is German, US is American, Iran is Iranian, India is Indian.

              The only difference is that in Israel their Character is under attack and they have to be much more visible in defending it. Other nations have the liberty of not mentioning it too much - but God forbid France's character was under attack - they might just ban burkas.

              •  "Everyone can vote in Israel" (25+ / 0-)

                There is a certain "democratic" sleight-of-hand at work here that is often used by despots.

                Wake me up when everyone that is affected by state policy can vote on state policy on equal terms, since that is the fundamental requirement for democracy.

                The much more vague "everyone [wave of hand] can vote" is a bit of three-card monty that the world generally recognizes already every time Israel plays the game.

                -9.63, 0.00
                "Liberty" is deaf, dumb, and useless without life itself.

                by nobody at all on Sat Jul 05, 2014 at 11:32:14 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  just because you don't like the results of the (0+ / 0-)

                  voting, doesn't mean you get the right to equate those results to dictatorships.

                  Do Muslims in France and Germany vote and "affect" state policy on equal terms? And if they could do you think they would be able to? It's not said out loud because no one is asking. But people keep asking it of Israel.

                  Israel would not allow it's Character to be changed, just like France and Germany would not allow their Character to be changed from being Western Democracies with Western ideals.

                  •  To the extent that France and Germany (23+ / 0-)

                    essentially tie their statehood to ethnic identity, then they have the same problem. And, indeed, they do—but not to the same extent, or with the same vehemence that has been clearly observable in Israel for some time now.

                    And, incidentally, the same is true for the U.S.—the day that we officially say "we are democratic nation and a white, Christian, male nation," the U.S. has a serious problem.

                    Hence the incredible fury that you see on this very site about the implicit move toward this very troubling position (compare to the explicit claim on Israel's part to be both Jewish and democratic at once).

                    You see DKos posters every day bemoaning precisely the same thing: that if the U.S. is essentially a nation for white, Christian males, then it is not democratic and does not offer any semblance of the benefits that democratic states—in theory—offer to anyone that is not a white, Christian male.

                    You are making the argument for me.

                    -9.63, 0.00
                    "Liberty" is deaf, dumb, and useless without life itself.

                    by nobody at all on Sat Jul 05, 2014 at 11:49:45 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  Oh, and incidentally, it is very late where I am (6+ / 0-)

                    and I am signing off.

                    Lest you would otherwise have offered the fallacious "Aha! He has stopped responding and therefore I am right!" position a few minutes from now.

                    No, you are not right. But I am, in fact, signing off.

                    -9.63, 0.00
                    "Liberty" is deaf, dumb, and useless without life itself.

                    by nobody at all on Sat Jul 05, 2014 at 11:52:28 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  it's very late here too (0+ / 0-)

                      so I am signing off as well. I can't think clearly at 3am. And I was going to respond to your previous comment and say that no you are not right and no you didn't characterize what I said correctly. But for another time.

                  •  It is a foundation of our democracy that (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    pelagicray, shaharazade

                    we don't get to vote on civil rights.  That the majority cannot deliberately discriminate against anyone who isn't in the 50%+1.

                    •  where is that foundation? (0+ / 0-)

                      Where is it in our constitution? Whose civil rights?

                      Anyone? Are you sure?

                      •  It's not directly about civil rights, (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Wednesday Bizzare

                        but it is the reason for constitutionalism in democracy. Constitutionalism is designed to address the fatal flaw:

                        That a majority faction can use their vote to alter the state and ensure that others are excluded from future votes. If this happens, at that moment, democracy ends as a practical, pragmatic proposition.

                        So, for example, if you found a democracy but have no constitutionalist basis that is the overriding constraint, you could have a situation (and the historically-founded presumption is that you likely would have a situation) in which, say, a 51% white majority uses their votes to enshrine into law that nobody who is not white gets to vote.

                        At that moment, if it is allowed to happen, you now have a state in which 49% of the population no longer has input into their own governance, because the 51% have voted to restrict the vote to themselves and themselves only. This is bad for democratic durability and eliminates most of democracy's benefits over the long term.

                        In other words, if such a voting outcome is allowed, at the moment it takes effect, democracy ends for all practical intents and purposes—and its theoretical benefits for statehood, chief amongst them the stability that results from legitimacy (everyone abides by the law because everyone feels as though they have had input into it)—are lost. The state becomes unstable and lacking in legitimacy amongst large swaths of the population that are then forever a threat to said state's continuance. This lack of legitimacy and continued subversion/rebellion are exactly the classic statecraft problems that democracy is meant to address, in comparison to other forms of governance like autocratic (i.e monarchical) ones. (See, in fact, for an example case of this problem: Israel.)

                        So along with the general theoretical basis that democratic benefits for the state emerge when and only when all of those that are affected by state policy have equal input into it, constitutionalism has emerged as a caveat: "Everyone votes, but there is one rule... No vote can result in a policy that restricts who gets to vote, or that results in the disenfranchisement of any segment of the population affected by votes' outcomes."

                        Without this caveat, democracy seems to disappear rather quickly, along with its benefits.

                        So while the constitutionalist basis isn't about "civil rights" per se from a statecraft perspective, i.e. from the theoretical perspective of maintaining the state, operating it on a day-to-day basis, and ensuring its stability, legitimacy, and continued operational integrity, the effect is the same, since this is usually the area in which populations attempt to disenfranchise other segments of the population—humans generally factionalize along racial/ethnic lines. There has long been a call for humans to factionalize along class lines from the left, but in practice, constitutional protections have ended up being about race and ethnicity in actual historical cases, because this seems to be what matters to people—their own ethnic identity trumps all.

                        The entire universe of problems that Israel faces they face because they continue to try to somehow escape the practical reality that every other state and every other constitutional convention has had to concede is at issue: that to preserve a democracy, you can't allow a majority of the people to vote to disenfranchise a minority of the people. It's a caveat that has to be preserved if democracy is to survive without continuous assault from minorities that feel it to be illegitimate.

                        -9.63, 0.00
                        "Liberty" is deaf, dumb, and useless without life itself.

                        by nobody at all on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 08:42:52 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  Well (0+ / 0-)

                        There is that Fourteenth Amendment we liberals like.

                  •  I don't know that to be true. France and Germany (0+ / 0-)

                    are changing as we speak. And perpetual demographic change is the hallmark of the United States.

              •  It seems to me that you are not even aware (13+ / 0-)

                that your statement is as racist as screaming "There are no Blacks in Italy!" at Mario Balotelli, the originally Ghanaian star striker on the Italian national soccer team, who was adopted as a child.

                Similarly it is as racist as Abraham Lincoln's idea of sending freed slaves "back" to Africa, because he thought them incapable of US citizenship, before Frederick Douglass educated him about the essential humanity of slaves and ex-slaves. Check out Meteor Blades on Douglass's speech What to the Negro is the Fourth of July?

                Back off, man. I'm a logician.—GOPBusters™

                by Mokurai on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 12:06:37 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  'france is french' (6+ / 0-)

                perhaps this kind of thinking is why there has been a big surge in jewish emigration away from france in the face of increasing ethnic violence?  how does your logic apply to other countries?  seems to me that if every country were to follow your advice, israel might be the only place left for jews to live...

              •  ? (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Brecht

                France : French :: Israel : Israeli

                The easily offended deserve to be easily offended.--God

                by Flyswatterbanjo on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 09:20:37 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  Have you read David Hackett Fischer? (0+ / 0-)

          He does despise that word, "essentially".

          To put the torture behind us is, inevitably, to put it in front of us.

          by UntimelyRippd on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 10:13:18 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  While it is true that (9+ / 0-)

        a country can maintain a semblance of democracy with an established religion, it cannot maintain it. That is, if the religious authority has any power to refuse the results of an election, it loses its claim to democracy, and if not, it loses its claim to privilege some religion.

        In the long run, which can be a century or more.

        Ireland, which started out as a Catholic democracy, has begun to confront this fact, as its legislature tries to pass laws on women's rights that the Catholic Church regards as sinful.

        Iran has elections, but is not in any real sense a democracy. That would require adherence to human rights and the rule of law, among other things. Neither is Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Egypt, Libya, Syria, Tunisia, Morocco, Algeria, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Bangla Desh, Malaysia, Indonesia, or any of the other officially Muslim countries that I am aware of. Turkey is not officially Muslim, but is still not much of a democracy. Jordan is not officially Christian or Muslim, and is far less of a democracy.

        Back off, man. I'm a logician.—GOPBusters™

        by Mokurai on Sat Jul 05, 2014 at 11:53:13 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Until ALL Palestinians are given (9+ / 0-)

        full voting rights and full participation in the government.

        THEN we'll see if it's a Democracy or not.

        "You can't fix stupid" --Ron White -6.00, -5.18

        by zenbassoon on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 12:35:14 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  They have represnetation in the Knesset and are (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Jersey Jon

          allowed to be Israeli citizens.  I'm not sure you were aware of that.

          "We know too much to go back and pretend" - Helen Reddy (humble cosmos shaker)

          by ditsylilg on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 08:54:23 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  If representation was proportional in a one (0+ / 0-)

            state solution, the Israelis would be the minority.

            "You can't fix stupid" --Ron White -6.00, -5.18

            by zenbassoon on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 10:27:26 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  The four million Palestinians living under (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Tonedevil, Lepanto

            Israeli laws, being taxed by Israel, and having their access to their own resources controlled by Israel in the Occupied Territories have the right to be Israeli Citizens and have representation in the Knesset?

            Who knew?

            The UN should give Iraq a restraining order against the US.

            by JesseCW on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 10:29:34 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  The original poster was speaking of those who (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Jersey Jon

              reside in Israel.  And if they didn't collect taxes, Arafat would have moved more money to his private account in Switzerland.

              "We know too much to go back and pretend" - Helen Reddy (humble cosmos shaker)

              by ditsylilg on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 10:51:45 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  No, that's what you infered. (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Tonedevil, ditsylilg

                The original poster said ALL.

                Not everyone is ok with a People being militarily subjugated and denied their right of self governance for 45 years.

                Why you feel bizarre non-sequitors about Arafat are relevant is beyond me.  

                The UN should give Iraq a restraining order against the US.

                by JesseCW on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 12:42:00 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I rec'd your comment by accident. Just (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Jersey Jon

                  curious, how long have you known of the Palestinian plight?  I have had to deal with it my entire life.  Have you ever been to Israel?  You may want to note my comment further down.  The young Palestinian men I encountered were far more reasonable than you.  And David had requested that we have a respectful conversation.

                  "We know too much to go back and pretend" - Helen Reddy (humble cosmos shaker)

                  by ditsylilg on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 03:07:35 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

    •  Duh. That's what Israel has been since 1948 (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mattoqp, cryonaut, Jersey Jon

      A Jewish state that's a democratic state.

  •  The goal of extremists is violence (16+ / 0-)

    Why were the three young men killed? I can't tell for sure, but it appears that by killing innocent Israelis, the extremists can further disrupt any peace process and provoke attacks of retribution on innocent Palestinians. The reaction of the Netanyahu government completes the victory for the extremists, by increasing their popularity.  This was the strategy of bin Laden with the United States, and the recipe appears to work.

    WHile I can't see into the true motivations of others, it seems as if extremist Palestinians and right-wing Israelis are ina strange and unspoken alliance with each other, each inciting the worst reaction from the other because it meets their political and emotional needs

    •  Terrorists routinely act to sabotage their own (7+ / 0-)

      causes and their own interests. The notion is that the other side can be terrified into backing down. Tell that to the Jews of the Warsaw Ghetto. Tell it to Britain in the Blitz. Tell it to the US after Pearl Harbor. Neither Israelis nor Palestinians will be capable of terrorizing their enemies into submission, nor can a terror campaign of itself lead to successful negotiations.

      Democratic rights began to come to South Africa and Northern Ireland in spite of the ANC and the IRA, not because of their acts of terror. The Afrikaners and the Orangemen lost their former legitimacy in the eyes of the world and their support from various internal and external political and financial forces.

      Back off, man. I'm a logician.—GOPBusters™

      by Mokurai on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 12:17:13 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I'm with you in your concern (4+ / 0-)

    And I blame the current government of Israel for playing to the basest instincts of Jewish Israelis in order to achieve its idea of security. This makes the British partition of India and Pakistan seem almost benign.

    All it takes is security in your own civil rights to make you complacent.

    by Dave in Northridge on Sat Jul 05, 2014 at 10:48:57 PM PDT

  •  I think it greatly beneficial to Israel (7+ / 0-)

    to work on the two state solution sooner rather than later where the U.S. is concerned.  Looking into the projected future, it looks to me like the U.S. trend will be a less religious country.  That is to say, the people claiming to be non-religious and non-belivers are growing.

      Non-believers do not believe that any god gave any land to any people.  

    The younger, less religious in the U.S. are rejecting violence in greater numbers and the excuses wear thin and I do not think Israel will get a pass from those younger ones when they get into office.

    I just don't see violence turning out well for any group that advocates it.

    Well written diary that expresses what so many are thinking and feeling.  Peace and love to those who are hurting.

    1. What does it mean? 2. And then what?

    by alwaysquestion on Sat Jul 05, 2014 at 10:55:44 PM PDT

  •  All over the world the divides seem to be growing (11+ / 0-)

    larger. Base fundamentalism seems to be growing in popularity. It's scary. Everyone seems to be forgetting about the old adage - divide and conquer. Who is doing the dividing? What do they have to gain? The average citizen has nothing to gain.

    if a habitat is flooded, the improvement for target fishes increases by an infinite percentage...because a habitat suitability index that is even a tiny fraction of 1 is still infinitely higher than zero, which is the suitability of dry land to fishes.

    by mrsgoo on Sat Jul 05, 2014 at 10:58:40 PM PDT

  •  So painful.. (13+ / 0-)

    Your words come dressed in the pain I know you are feeling as you watch all of this unfolding. I feel it too and I don't know why peace is so hard, or why  is so much violence and war.

    Sometimes it seems like all we can do is hold on to those we love, and do the best we can to keep our smaller worlds peaceful while we work toward larger efforts to create peace in the larger world. I want to believe that if we do this, the small flames of hope we can each light will find each other and join to create someday, a light greater than the darkness of hate.

    Take gentle good care of yourself, ok?

    When all the trees have been cut down, when all the animals have been hunted, when all the waters are polluted, when all the air is unsafe to breathe, only then will you discover you cannot eat money. Cree Prophecy

    by scribe on Sat Jul 05, 2014 at 11:06:06 PM PDT

  •  I cannot recommend this enough (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Odysseus, Lefty Coaster

    The international sackcloth and ashes routine has been - to me, anyway - more surprising than the abductions in the first place. And when I asked my (liberal, secular) Israeli friends why people were so outraged, some of them were shocked I could even ask such a question. It makes me wonder what kind of information they're receiving in Israel. We, in the US, can certainly find a great deal of information about the atrocities visited upon the residents of the West Bank and Gaza.

    Interestingly, according to my brother-in-law, the Haredi are much more pragmatic about it than many of the secular progressives in Israel. Their perspective is, "what did you expect?" Indeed.

    •  Israelis are heavily indoctrinated in victimhood. (3+ / 0-)

      I learned this from reading authors like Miko Peled.

      I heard an interview on conservative talk radio with the host's brother who's lived in Jerusalem for 25 years.

      This was a few days ago, but the gist of his story was that Israeli citizens had been glued to their radios and TVs for the 18 days it took to find the three teens.  There was nonstop coverage of the violence by IDF and police while searching for the teens. He also stated that during this time Palestinians were producing pamphlets and cartoons mocking Jews (rats with the Star of David, etc). He claimed that the whole nation was on high alert.

      The brother's comments, as an Israeli Jew, were obviously biased, since we've seen footage of the destruction of West Bank Palestinian homes, businesses and villages, not to mention the IDF and police killings of Palestinians during the search process.

      •  Consider, though, what it might be like (9+ / 0-)

        to live under the real  threat of terrorism each and every day of your life. Think of how a majority of Americans reacted to 9/11...we collectively went insane and agreed to the invasion of a country that had nothing to do with it!

        Israelis are manipulated by their leader the same way we were manipulated by ours, and I suspect for the same reason. Netanyahu sees his political fortunes linked to stoking hatred of Palestinians the same way Bush saw his re-election dependent on creating a war he could portray himself as the hero of.

        •  I think we do consider it (3+ / 0-)

          which is why so many also feel sympathy for the plight of the Palestinians who live under such threats.

        •  Right-wing extremists are inherently dangerous (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          UntimelyRippd

          everywhere and at every level including international foes, friends, and in our own culture, especially when the spoils of war profiteering are believed to be up for grabs.

          "Portion of the adolescent prisoners in solitary on Rikers Island who have been diagnosed with a mental illness: 7/10." Tell someone.

          by RJDixon74135 on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 08:43:20 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  My biggest complaint about our reaction to 9-11 (0+ / 0-)

          is we're supposed to be the good guys. As good guys, we grieve, pick ourselves up, and look for justice. You know, get the people actually responsible.

          Not wars on terror or enhanced security states or spying on our citizens or patriot acts. None of that crap.

          If we really lived up to our ideals, none of that would be necessary.

          We lead by example, just not a very good one.

          "Human beings make life so interesting. Do you know, that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to invent boredom. " - Death (Terry Pratchett character)

          by Thorby Baslim on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 10:23:56 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Read Haaretz including the comments (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Jersey Jon, Vagaries Plum

      And read the Jerusalem Post. You'll see that Israelis have a spectrum of opinion to consider.

      It makes me wonder what kind of information they're receiving in Israel.

      "Portion of the adolescent prisoners in solitary on Rikers Island who have been diagnosed with a mental illness: 7/10." Tell someone.

      by RJDixon74135 on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 08:33:14 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  The right is the right, (22+ / 0-)

    whether here or in Israel.

    They feed on and foment fear, division, and hatred, and they actively oppose comity, unity, and tolerance, much less love. How they can perpetuate their political viability, given the ugliness of their positions, remains for me a source of deep and abiding perplexity and pain.

    I sympathize with your struggle to maintain your commitment to progressivism and to Zionism at the same time, given that Zionism has increasingly been commandeered by the right, with all the implacable ugliness that that entails.

    Marx was an optimist.

    by psnyder on Sat Jul 05, 2014 at 11:21:40 PM PDT

  •  Since '67, the deal has always been there, (9+ / 0-)

    Land for Peace.

    On viewing Gaza after the '67, Moshe Dayan said, oh, look what a generous and bountiful garden we will make here, for all it's inhabitants",

    And what a "garden" Israel wrought,.... A concentration camp,.....

    After the '72, it could not have been made more clear, that the deal was captured land, for peace, with the Sinai, the Golan,

    But Israel wants the land more than they want peace,...

    So, when an Isreali politician, or an Israeli, talks about peace, you can pretty much ignore them, they are just saying words that no longer have any meaning.

    Once the Israeli position at Oslo was made clear, the future of Israel was made clear,

    A Democratic One State where Jews are a minority,

    Or a Jewish State built on the genocide of the Palistinians.

    •  Land for peace means that israel must be assured (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Jersey Jon, Zornorph, DeeDee001

      of peace.

      Otherwise, it's just "land for nothing."  Would you really expect Israel to take that deal?

      •  Since '49 (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Tonedevil, janemas, Thorby Baslim

        An ever growing segment of Israeli Society has hammered on and on in utter ignorance about "needing guaranteed peace".

        What a joke, what a scam to play on the rubes and the dupes, and what a perfect identifier of a racist warmonger the trope is.

        First off, there are no "guarantees" of peace. never has been on the entire history of the human race,

        Might as well wish for a bajillion dollars and a pet unicorn.

        The Romans, like Belgans, the National Socialists and Now Israel, took hostages. they ranged from a handful of powerfull connected people, to hundreds of thousands of "commoners", and that didn't work,

        Violence sprang up, quite often, over the treatment of the Hostages.

        Peace Treaties, well, not good enough for the State of Israel now, but generally accepted by the ROW as good enough, don't guarantee peace. The only Peace Treaties that haven't been broken, are ones that just haven't been broken yet.

        There is always physical isolation and a powerful military, but has't worked out well for the US, who has gone to war more often than anybody since 1900, and always by choice.

        So, Rainbow Farting pet unicorns aside, do you want to still talk about peace?

        yeah, I know, you didn't really want to engage in a discussion, you just wanted to  do your job, post the Talking Point, and go back to playing Angry Birds,

        But peace is something that first off, needs to be wanted. Notice the word wanted, that's an active verb, so, we know that as much as Israel talks about peace, they don't want it.

        Second off, peace is some ing that is made, another active verb, same problem,

        Third off, peace is something that is kept, another active verb

        So, like it or not, the future for Israel holds two paths, extinguishment as a Jewish Nation, or the path of choosing genocide.

        Based on the history of the past couple decades, I'm pretty sure that Israel is going to choose genocide.

        •  You can't have a peace agreement unless BOTH sides (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Jersey Jon, Zornorph, DeeDee001, TLS66

          want it.  

          •  Yup , that's the Problem in a Nutshell, (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Lepanto, blue speck

            Since '76, not a single sign that Israel want's peace, millions of proofs that Palistine does,

            No attempt at making peace by Israel, thousands of attempts by the Palistinians,

            No attempts at keeping peace by Israel, millions of attempts by the Palistinians.

            When the World recoils in disgust at the future Israel, built on the burned bones of the Palistinians, I wonder,...

            What will life be like in Israel, as the only example that comes to mind is North Korea, and in comparison, North Korea's crimes are mere misdemeanours,

            What will happen to the Jewish Diaspora,.... As I don't think that they will be able to divorce their religion and ethnicity from the actions of the State of Israel,

            And what will become of Judaism as a Religion?

            There really are no parallels in human history for the future Israel will/is choosing.

            •  That's funny (4+ / 0-)

              In your alternative universe, all of the peacemaking has come from the Palestinian side.

              Hilarious.  At first I thought this was intended as snark.

              The bottom line is that both sides need to seek peace and take steps to encourage trust on the other side.  

              That's not happening now from either side.

              •  Not snark , just facts, (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                AoT

                Been around a long time.

                Rule is, has been since the '67, land for peace.

                When one side sitting at the table, is talking about peace while they are still taking land, even most idiots eventually understand that taking about peace , is just a dog and pony show.

                Not all idiots of course, Some idiots are so entrenched in the dogma, they can't recognize the contradictions in the dogma, like Libertarians,....

                The pace of hatred and the advocates and supporters of genocide in Israel, are growing much faster than I expected.

                Ever since Gamil's lecture at a West Point on demographics and the strategic solutions,  back in '89, I have been watching Isreali society and the Press for signs of growing radicalization and dehumanization. I figured that it would take 4 generations, but has managed to get close to the tipping point in just one.

                I wonder if, like we did after WWII, we will root out and prosecute, and marginalize the Israeli Apoligists, like we did the Holocaust apologists?

                It will be much easier these days, what with Google et al.

                •  Can you provide a link to the massive amount of (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Jersey Jon, TLS66

                  support for "genocide" in Israel?

                  I think I'm going to regret engaging with you.  You seem to have this cartoon-like image of Israelis as evil genocide committing monsters when, in reality, they're mostly just like you (except not quite so hateful and extremist).

                  •  Google Transfer Option, (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Jersey Jon, AoT

                    And אפשרות העברה,

                    Man, it's got to be tough being an Israeli apologist these days,

                    BDS is growing and thriving, AIPAC is loathed, you cAn't even log in to most of the established European forums,

                    And every time you think you catch a break, either the Settlers, the IDF or the Israeli State, commits another war crime and it goes out world wide, even before the prior news cycle is page 2.

                    Man, you gotta miss the old days, back when the IDF, the Mossad or Shin Bet could kill or imprison and torture every rising Palestinian leader, with impunity,

                    And Israeli Politicians could go to Peace Conferences, and with a straight face, note that there was " nobody to negotiate with", and everybody at the table would nod their heads sagely.

                    •  "Genocide" means murder (0+ / 0-)

                      I don't support transfer, but those who advocate transfer clearly are not advocating murder.  You're just making shit up.

                      •  Depends on if he meant "ethnic cleansing" (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        AoT

                        rather than genocide. Transfer IS ethnic cleansing.

                        The last time the Republicans were this radical, they were working to elect former slaves to Congress. What a difference a century and a half makes!

                        by jayjaybear on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 01:28:05 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  Yup, (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        stargaze

                        The Palestinians are going to freely and peacefully give up the homes, orchards, shops and industries they have inhabited for thousands of years, en mass, that they are currently willing to suffer great pains and losses, to keep and protect,

                        For a few dollars, a bus ticket and a complimentary SodaStream.

                        Google 1948 Transfer Committee,

                        Or just read up on the history of population transfers, from the Armenians, through the Greek-Turkish transfers, the End of WWII, the failed Polish German one, the successful Ukrainian -Polish one ,

                        The only way to make most of the Palestinians and many of the Israeli Arabs "gone" from Israel and never wanting to come back, is the same way as it has always been done through history, a lotta genocide and the installation of permanent fear in the few survivors.

                        Or through a Nation to Nation War, turning them once again into refugees, just outside greater Israel. But that requires a neighbour willing and strong enough to invade Palestine and parts of Israel, keep the fighting there and on a severe enough enough scale that it lasts for a year or more, yet large enough, and far away enough, that the Palestinians don't wind up festering in refugee camps on the New Greater Israel borders. No such nation exists, or will exist before the clock runs out.

                        But Israel wants "guaranteed" results, and even though it took a long time, even the Cherokee made it back after the trail of Tears,

                        And only a tiny fraction of the Tribe was left alive after the Trail,....

                        And Israel needs guarantees.

                      •  I suggest you read the genocide convention (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        AoT

                        and the definitions. The crime is:

                        ...any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

                            (a) Killing members of the group;
                            (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
                            (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
                            (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
                            (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

                        You might also like to consider whether, "putting the Palestinians on a diet" as one Israeli minister referred to the blockade of Gaza, had relevance to b) and c).

                        "Come to Sochi, visit the gay clubs and play with the bears" - NOT a Russian advertising slogan.

                        by Lib Dem FoP on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 04:12:52 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Of course, Gaza gets aid without restriction, just (0+ / 0-)

                          not weapons.

                          I've said I'm not in favor of transfer, but none of the "transfers" that have been discussed would qualify as "genocide" under the language you quoted.  Maybe you could point out something Israel has done or is imminently about to do that I'm not aware of that qualifies under your quoted language.

                          Don't you think you (and Jay) lose credibility when you loosely and falsely throw around terms like "genocide"?  

    •  It's not even Israel's land to give. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      JesseCW, Lepanto, janemas

      Anything they get for it is gravy.

      The easily offended deserve to be easily offended.--God

      by Flyswatterbanjo on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 09:54:11 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  One State Solution is the only way! (4+ / 0-)

    Two State is dead. One State is the way to go!

    This will only change when Palestinians can vote in the Knesset!

    •  I fear you're correct (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      henryjones000, Lepanto

      After the far right's domination of Israeli politics for the past 14 years, during which the Israeli government focused much of its energy on illegal settlement expansions, a two state solution has become only a remote possibility IMHO. Creating a viable state for the Palestinians has become less and less feasible with each passing year.

      The Israeli Right's "Facts on the Ground" are determining that Israel will have a one state solution eventually. The sooner we can come to grips with that reality, to sooner we will find a solution to the conflict.

      "The end of democracy and the defeat of the American Revolution will occur when government falls into the hands of lending institutions and moneyed incorporations." ~ Thomas Jefferson

      by Lefty Coaster on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 12:36:43 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Fantasy is just that. n/t (0+ / 0-)

      "Stay close to the candles....the staircase can be treacherous" (-8.38,-8.51)

      by JNEREBEL on Mon Jul 07, 2014 at 10:27:38 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I usually stay away from I/P, (6+ / 0-)

    as its always a minefield. And because im primarily concerned with American interests and not internal conflicts among foreigners.

    But seems to me that progressive Jewish Americans like yourself need to come to grips with reality and decide whats important, a "Jewish state," or a secular one where Jews are not the majority. Quite frankly, I think the former is the most realistic option, simply continue to conquer Palestine until its complete and to the victor goes the spoils. Thats essentially current policy.

    I do not beleive a two state solution is in any way workable. Or that it will bring lasting peace. Either you join together in one state, or what group will have to conquer the other.

    Either way though, America has nothing to do with it and should not get involved in supporting either side in this conflict. No more of this support Israel at all costs no matter what and do as they say without question crap. Israel is its own country perfectly capable of sorting out its own problems without us sticking our nose into it. Palestinians just need to accept that they are a conquered people and thats life. Emigrate as far away as possible. In fact, id be more than happy to have them all come here and leave the entire god awful mess behind them. Shit piece of land anyway.

    There...thats my I/P for the next 10 years because im pretty certain nothing will change.

    •  I believe you mean (4+ / 0-)
      America has nothing to do with it and should not get involved in supporting either side in this conflict.
      America should stop involving itself in this conflict -- and guess which side America has been taking lo these past few decades.

      Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

      by corvo on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 04:16:52 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  and the contradictions continue . . . (5+ / 0-)
      Palestinians just need to accept that they are a conquered people and thats life. Emigrate as far away as possible. In fact, id be more than happy to have them all come here and leave the entire god awful mess behind them.
      I'm sure Israel would be delighted if its non-Arab populations, both in the OTs and in Israel proper, just left.  Easy victory for Israel, in fact.  Isn't that what "transfer" is all about?

      Oh, and who's going to pay to bring all those Palestinians here, and wouldn't that be involvement on our part in the conflict -- and, once again, on Israel's side?

      Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

      by corvo on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 04:20:14 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  As an Israeli-American Jew (19+ / 0-)

      who grew up in and has lived nearly all of my life in the US, I've long believed that the US was hurting itself, Israel and Palestinians by being so pro-Israel, both politically and financially. This stance helps no one (except the Israeli oligarchs and Likudniks like Bibi who now pretty much own Israel) and hurts everyone. Take away some of that support, and the Likud's position is no longer tenable. We are literally propping up a racist and occupying regime, no different from Batista, Samoza or Suharto. And it's almost entirely for domestic (US) political and economic purposes.

      Sure, Israel has and Israelis have been under constant threat and attack since before its founding, and have a right to defend themselves from this, and the US was justified in helping it. But that doesn't justify occupation, oppression and brutality, which have been justified, disingenuously and perversely, by these attacks, when their real motivation was land greed and racism.

      I'm not convinced that a 2-state solution is unworkable, but not until the US stops supporting Israel's brutal occupation policies.

      "Reagan's dead, and he was a lousy president" -- Keith Olbermann 4/22/09

      by kovie on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 04:57:30 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  It's what we're good at, supporting tyrants (6+ / 0-)

        I voted Tuesday, May 6, 2014 because it is my right, my responsibility and because my parents moved from Alabama to Ohio to vote. Unfortunately, the republicons want to turn Ohio into Alabama.

        by a2nite on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 05:21:05 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Two theocracies, side by side, (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        jqb

        with what...some sort of sovereign huge bridge connecting the West Bank with Gaza? Ridiculous. Itll never work.

        Theyre either going to be one nation, or one group is going to conquer the other. Right now one side is doing the conquering. They need to just annex both territories and throw the Arabs out and get it over with.  Thats the policy, only now theyre doing it nice and slow. The Israelis on all sides and ideologies are united on one thing: Israel will be Jewish only...forever. Theres unanimity on that issue. So there will never be a free secular state in Israel so long as Jewish folks have the power to keep it a Jewish state. Thats life. I can live with it.

        Palestinians are gonna have to face facts. They cant win. Its a wrap. So...move. its just 4 million people. Id be willing for America to take them all. Open door policy, just like Cuba. Come one and all. Weve got plenty of room and more freedom than theyd ever get from the Israelis for sure.

        •  IMO, eventually Gaza will become (5+ / 0-)

          a part of Egypt like it was pre-1967. Gaza residents are the same religion--Sunni Muslim, speak the same langauge-Arabic, and same culture as Egyptians.  Gaza residents will be better off long term.

          •  Gaza was never a part of the modern state (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Flyswatterbanjo, Lepanto, jqb

            of Egypt.

            Egypt never annexed nor attempted to annex Gaza.  The residents of Gaza have never expressed any collective desire for such annexation.

            It's a fantasy of the extreme elements of the Arab hating Israeli right that the wishes of both Palestinians and Egyptians can be ignored and that 1.5 million Palestinians can be "dumped".

            It's not grounded in reality.  It ranks up there with "Jordan is the Palestinian State".

            The UN should give Iraq a restraining order against the US.

            by JesseCW on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 10:38:56 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  You've never been to the region, have you? (7+ / 0-)

          Of all the things one could justifiably accuse Israelis of, theocrats isn't one of them. Sure, they have those too, way too many of them with disproportionate political power. But the overwhelming majority of Israelis are incredibly secular, far more so than Americans, and to the extent that they support occupation and brutality, it's out of racism, land greed, hatred, fear and idiocy, not "God gave it to us, deal with it". That's a silly canard, right down there with "This has been going on for centuries" (actually, it has not).

          Also, to most Israelis, "Jewish State" mean a state for Jews, not a religiously Jewish state. Israelis spend more time going to soccer games on Saturday than temple. Religion is not the driving force here. Rather, ethnic nationalism. I can't speak for Palestinians but I'm guessing it's both.

          "Reagan's dead, and he was a lousy president" -- Keith Olbermann 4/22/09

          by kovie on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 06:13:08 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Nope, dont want to go either. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            a2nite

            Dont want any fellow vets over there either. But if you want to go over there, be my guest. I dont want American government, military or taxpayers getting involved in non-American problems. But if individual citizens decide they want to go and solve whatever is going on over there, knock yourself out.

            •  I was born there (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Zornorph, burlydee

              So I don't need your permission or advice on the matter. But if you think that Paulian isolationism is good foreign policy, good luck with that. Just because we're over and mis-involved with the world doesn't mean we need to fold up our tents and give up on it. Nice binary dialectic ya got there.

              "Reagan's dead, and he was a lousy president" -- Keith Olbermann 4/22/09

              by kovie on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 12:50:29 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  Who Pays? (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          shaharazade, DeeDee001

          The problem is who pays for the emigration effort.  Under your approach, the outlaw benefits.  Isn't that rough justice in the extreme?

          Besides, I can't see any of the right-wing allowing any of the Palestinians to become refugees in the US - wrong ethnic group, wrong religion, wrong polticial orientation.  Who else can we persuade to take the Palestinian refugees then?  It would be like the situation at the end of WW2 when millions of displaced persons were roaming the European continent trying to find a place to move to either by choice or by the bayonet.  We tend to forget about the moves imposed on many due to the border shifts which occurred in 1945, when many Germans got pushed out of their ancestral homes in western Poland and Bohemia because of their suspect patriotism to their new governments and past support for the regime just cut down.  It might be a nice plan if it could be implemented but it's very likely way beyond modern statecraft.

          "Love the Truth, defend the Truth, speak the Truth, and hear the Truth" - Jan Hus, d.1415 CE

          by PrahaPartizan on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 06:20:41 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Actually, it's hard to see Israel winning long (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          JesseCW, kovie, jqb, burlydee

          term. They've succeeded in driving away most of the Palestinian Christians, but the mass of the Palestinian people have no place to go. And the neocon dream of breaking up the major Arab states into quarreling ethnic enclaves is beginning to backfire.
             The (probably temporary) success of ISIS in Syria and Iraq foreshadows the development of a Sunni Empire as well as a Shia Empire consisting of most of Iraq and Iran.
             The continued persecution of the Palestinians will alienate the support of the West, which is declining in influence anyway.
             So then what does Israel have? Nuclear weapons? But Hiroshima was thousands of miles from the US. A nuclear attack on Israel's neighbor will mean that Israelis will die from fallout.
             The only logical way forward for the Israelis is to make peace with the Palestinians.

          •  Every single mideast state that was carved (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            jqb

            out of the old Ottoman Empire is an untenable failure, including Israel, Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states, which despite how rich and successful they are, were built upon illusions and quicksand. Unless the undergo major reform, they will eventually explode. As for the less affluent and successful states, they too are built on lies and illusions, forcing together historic ethnic and religious rivals under single states, like Syria, Lebanon and Iraq. It's all going to come apart eventually and reform itself along more realistic lines. Even Israel is facing eventual self-destruction if it doesn't resolve its ethnic divide properly. Perhaps someday there can be a single state for Jews and Arabs, but until then, there need to be 2 states--2 viable states. Or else it's game over.

            "Reagan's dead, and he was a lousy president" -- Keith Olbermann 4/22/09

            by kovie on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 03:26:51 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  Come to grips with the political reality (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Heart of the Rockies

      No American government is ever going to pull the plug on support of Israel. A significant block of American voters care deeply about supporting Israel, almost to the exclusion of any other issue. Recall the outcry when Howard Dean merely suggested we take a more "evenhanded" approach?

      •  That block is shrinking. (4+ / 0-)

        Jewish voters are about 1.5% of the electorate highly concentrated in a just a few states. Not a big electoral group. We have a helluva lot more Muslim voters actually. Obviously Jewish voters play a much more significant role in fundraising for both parties, punching way above their weight. But ultimately you gotta have the votes.

        So far its the Evangelical vote that been keeping the country super Israel. But that group is both shrinking and changing. And as Americans continue to turn inward, thankfully, we will see more 'wash our hands of the whole mess' line of thinking take root in both parties. The neocons, certainly the most pro israeli faction and mostly Jewish American, is losing favor with the broader electorate.

        There is literally no electorate for the Palestinians, and thats fine by me too. Im optimistic on us leaving that part of the world to its own fate.

      •  A few more scenes of Israeli cops beating a (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Teiresias70

        handcuffed AMERICAN teenager followed by interviews with his American sounding mother and we'll see how long this support lasts.
           Or. if there is disruption of the flow of oil from the Mideast and drivers here have to wait in line for gasoline.
           Most Americans vaguely favor Israel, and strong supporters of Israel are big funders of political campaigns. But public opinion can shift on a dime.

  •  David - have you read Max Blumenthal yet? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    BigAlinWashSt

    i mentioned this some months ago and gave a link to his speech

    what is happening this week has been going on and on and on

    here is a talk Max gave in Seattle Dec 2013

    the first 10 minutes are about African immigrants to Israel

    horrible treatment

    "silence about what happening there" why Max wrote his book

    Goliath: Life and Loathing in Greater Israel
    here is the link to the talk. Video by pirate TV which is an independent, local media service in Seattle

    https://archive.org/...

  •  Perhaps all we can do is make America a home fo... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    PeterHug, Pale Jenova, shaharazade

    Perhaps all we can do is make America a home for American Jews, and debate what that would mean. Perhaps Israelis have to figure out Israel. This year, I am prouder of Spain, a people figuring out how to apologize to me after 500 years, than I am of Israeli pandering and bloodlust. The Russians are still *sses but what are you going to do?

  •  Ariel Sharon, Bibi & the Israeli far-right's dream (14+ / 0-)

    of destroying any chance of real peace and fair and just accommodation with Palestinians is nearing reality, due to the radicalization of much if not most of Israeli society, a shift which they deliberately brought about by provoking the acts of anti-Israel terrorism that has caused it.

    This began with the assassination of Rabin nearly 20 years ago, and Sharon's deliberately provocative march into East Jerusalem over a decade ago. The Israeli far-right, like the US far-right, simply doesn't believe in compromise or accommodation, being led by delusional and power-hungry fanatics who seek only to destroy, not build or create. They will destroy Israel, just as ours will destroy the US, if allowed to. They are, I believe, literally mentally ill, when they're not just plain evil. I suspect that they're more than a bit of both.

    They're both, not coincidentally, driven by paranoia, megalomania, hatred and racism. The far-right always is. I need not go explicitly Godwin to show how.

    Yes, I just went there. And I believe that I was justified in doing so. Until racist and corrupt thugs like Bibi (and, here, today's GOP) are brought down, there can and will be no hope for Israel (or the US).

    "Reagan's dead, and he was a lousy president" -- Keith Olbermann 4/22/09

    by kovie on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 04:45:23 AM PDT

    •  Spot on about the racism (7+ / 0-)

      That really leaped out at me when the otherwise mild mannered, video game loving, helpful and charming man I met at a party began talking about "driving 'Arabs' into the sea, man, woman and child", regardless of guilt or innocence, (I want to be very clear on that point because I specifically asked.) His racism against non Jewish Arabs was vitriolic and and stated with pride and an absolute belief that he wouldn't be called out for it. He and I had been hitting it off very well until I did just that. I'm not suggesting that this author is racist but certainly many Zionists are, especially their leaders.

      "Given the choice between a Republican and someone who acts like a Republican, people will vote for a real Republican every time." Harry Truman

      by MargaretPOA on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 05:29:35 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Fools, cowards and creeps (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        a2nite, Aunt Martha, Thorby Baslim

        are fairly easily manipulated into this sort of "thinking", which of course is incompatible with legitimate victimhood and enlightened thinking and action. Amazing how seemingly "sophisticated" people express such thoughts. Some of them might genuinely believe in such monstrosities. Most, I suspect, were deliberately manipulated into such radicalism by craven leaders exploiting their fears and stupidity. In my experience there are very, very, very few people out there, in any society, who are genuinely enlightened AND good. It takes a certain kind of discipline, intelligence and innate goodness to be that way, and few are up to it IMO. So there are likely many more such people as this man out there, sadly, outwardly smart and "nice", but inside just another creep.

        "Reagan's dead, and he was a lousy president" -- Keith Olbermann 4/22/09

        by kovie on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 06:04:09 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Yitzhak Rabin wiki: (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      kovie

      http://en.wikipedia.org/...

      After the historical handshake with Yasser Arafat, Rabin said, on behalf of the Israeli people: "We who have fought against you, the Palestinians, we say to you today, in a loud and a clear voice, enough of blood and tears ... enough!"

      ------T'is a take-off from a Dixie Chicks song. I'm a fan------

      by Notreadytobenice on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 08:20:41 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Menachem Begin (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Notreadytobenice

        1978 Nobel Prize lecture:

        Peace is the beauty of life. It is sunshine. It is the smile of a child, the love of a mother, the joy of a father, the togetherness of a family. It is the advancement of man, the victory of a just cause, the triumph of truth. Peace is all of these and more and more.
        ...
        No more war. No more bloodshed.

        "Reagan's dead, and he was a lousy president" -- Keith Olbermann 4/22/09

        by kovie on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 03:16:19 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  at what point would you stop (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    shaharazade, MargaretPOA

    defending/ignoring/supporting Israel or its actions?
    or maybe you might think like i do-neither side deserves any lost sleep or tears any more.  we cant help them and i i doubt they can help themselves

    sorry your diary became one of the regional conflict instead of your own conflicting thoughts. but guess that was coming regardless

    i am not an Israeli nor a Palestinian nor am i in that region. I really dont have a clue what that would be like, except that it would be hell. i am not sure that either side realizes that they have made a living hell for each other.
    but that is war- your hell becomes your life and you fight for it. till the bitter end, when all the while instead of fighting for your life, you are really fighting for your war.
    a vicious cycle.

  •  Really? You still support Israel? (4+ / 0-)

    You even "love" the policy that commits violence against children? Like so many others, you've equated being against Israeli policies with being anti Semitic and it's just not true! ANY Theocracy in the modern world is a bad thing, a very bad thing. I don't know how it's possible that this piece made the rec. list, as at the end you seem to abandon progressive principles in favor of violent Zionism. And here's something else: there are a whole lot of people who just wish this stupid fucking feud would end once and for all, one way or the other. Your Zionist brothers and sisters apparently thrive and wallow in it, as do some of the Islamic people in that area. I once beheld and American Jew declaim loudly that if he "had (his) way, (he) would drive every 'Arab', man, woman and child into  the sea", regardless of guilt or innocence. Before this conversation, I hadn't really thought much about Zionism as an American Atheist but that rant opened my eyes and since then I've found that slaughtering non Jewish Arabs to be a common theme among Zionists along with the term "Arab" being used as a bigoted pejorative in a similar way as the N word or the F word is used here. I went through this entire piece expecting you to renounce your Zionism in favor of your "progressive values" but in the end you did the opposite. You can't have progressive values while simultaneously "loving" the policy of slaughtering children. How the hell does anybody seriously equate a 15 year old kid from Tampa, Florida with rocket attacks in Israel?  Yeah, what happened to your people in the 30s and 40s was the most abominable crime against humanity in written history. Yeah, you guys need a safe place to be. But none of that justifies torturing and killing people, especially children, because your people were once persecuted. Hell, so were my people and so were probably everybody's "people" persecuted at one time or another but for myself, I'm an American and Israel means nothing to me. It's just a black hole into which I dump my tax money and which I see becoming less admirable by the day. You can pretend to have progressive values all you want but I'll never pretend that about you again.

    "Given the choice between a Republican and someone who acts like a Republican, people will vote for a real Republican every time." Harry Truman

    by MargaretPOA on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 05:10:25 AM PDT

  •  It not just a problem in Israel (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Pale Jenova, shaharazade

    It is a problem worldwide. When leaders who should know better fan the fires of hate this is what always happens. The Republican are fanning theses same fires here and when the ugly happens they will be the first one to claim that it not there fault but it will be. How many people have to die before we as a race grow up and learn how to get along.

    Dogs and Philosophers do the greatest good and get the fewest rewards (Diogenes)

    by Out There on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 05:45:22 AM PDT

  •  you abandoned your progressive politics (5+ / 0-)

    and backed Israel. i would have done the reverse. and you should have also.  Israel is not, or ever has been the ideal that you dream of.  And Israel never will be that ideal, considering the methods they have employed, and continue to do so.

    Israel needs a new approach.

  •  Another one of your one-sided diaries about how... (4+ / 2-)
    Recommended by:
    cryonaut, Al Abama, BFSkinner, Zornorph
    Hidden by:
    Mikey, cville townie

    Another one of your one-sided diaries about how the nasty Jews have let you down. You completely ignore the cyclic nature of the conflict, focus your attention on Israeli crimes while whitewashing those committed by the Palestinians (not to mention the larger Arab world). Your diaries bring us no closer to resolution. Indeed, they contribute to the problem.

    •  Really? And your solution is . . . ? (5+ / 0-)

      The status quo? How is that working out for you?

      And God said, "Let there be light"; and with a Big Bang, there was light. And God said "Ow! Ow My eyes!" and in a flash God separated light from darkness. "Whew! Now that's better. Now where was I. Oh yea . . ."

      by Pale Jenova on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 07:10:29 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Which problem do David's diaries contribute to? (8+ / 0-)

      The problem of the truth about Israel's atrocities inflicted on the Palestinians or the truth that many Jews don't want people to know about it?  

      Judaism is just as aggressive in nature and dominionistic as its sister Abrahamic religions, Christianity and Islam. People do not tend to see it because Jews have been such victims of hatred over the centuries. But if you or anyone else wants to claim the higher ground for Judaism in terms of the moral treatment of others, you're going have a lot of facts to hide.

      •  The problem with David's diaries (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        hester, Zornorph

        are that they are so predictable. Starry eyed Jewish youth, becomes disillusioned/disappointed when his heroic people don't live up to his expectations. The threats they face are irrelevant; suicide bombs, missile attacks, daily incitements and threats by the entire Arab/Muslim world. None of that counts for much in David's world. Only Israeli action are worthy of a diary. It's like watching "Behind the Music" you know where it's going from the very start. Nowhere in my comment do I ignore Israeli atrocities, nowhere in my comment do I claim a higher ground and nowhere in my comment to claim to be happy with the status quo. My comment was a critique of David's approach; one that reinforces the idea that it is the Israelis alone that are primarily at fault in any given flare-up.

    •  This is not HRable - it's just clueless. nt (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      indubitably, Aunt Martha
  •  Judaism and Zionism are not one and the same (6+ / 0-)

    despite the effort of the Zionists to make it so.  There was a great deal of opposition to the idea of a Jewish state in Palestine.  And support for a binational state.  But that has been shoved down the historical memory hole.  The concept of a binational state needs to be revived.

    "When dealing with terrorism, civil and human rights are not applicable." Egyptian military spokesman.

    by Paleo on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 06:19:13 AM PDT

  •  Vengeance begets vengeance ad infinitum... (3+ / 0-)

    There may be temporary "victories" on one side or the other, but, sooner or later, there will be retaliation...unless...

    ...Unless we can understand fully and admit that we humans are very flawed beings.  We demand respect, but find it hard to be respectful.  We love the lovable, but find it difficult to follow the teachings of our various religions (or the more noble tenets of civilization) to love even the unlovable.  We are infuriated over injuries to ourselves or our own, but callous to those of our enemies.  

    ...Unless there is a united, bilateral, complete, radical, determined, sustained effort to change the endless cycle of recurring violence.  

    Sadly, the entire world has far too many places where the pursuit of vengeance and the use of violence as a "solution"  takes precedence over the pursuit of peace.

    •  I believe MLK and Gandhi would agree with you (4+ / 0-)

      Sadly, any hope of a near term solution died with Yitzhak Rabin.

      And God said, "Let there be light"; and with a Big Bang, there was light. And God said "Ow! Ow My eyes!" and in a flash God separated light from darkness. "Whew! Now that's better. Now where was I. Oh yea . . ."

      by Pale Jenova on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 07:12:29 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I believe anybody who has progressive values (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Pale Jenova

        Would agree with that. The problem lies in the exceptionally contradictory natures of progressive values coupled with a support, even "love", (his word), for brutal, racist policies. The author wants us to believe that he simultaneously believes as Gandhi did and that Zionism is awesome and benevolent. It's not possible to believe both.

        "Given the choice between a Republican and someone who acts like a Republican, people will vote for a real Republican every time." Harry Truman

        by MargaretPOA on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 10:09:22 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  late comment (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Saxman, Mrick

    Well written, and pretty much sums up my feelings--except--I go one step further.  All Jews should be paranoid--throughout history, we've been the chosen ones --to be killed and tortured and shunned.  To expect a Jewish state, formed after the holocaust, not to be insane, is insane.  As is true of most of modern history--blame the English mapmakers.  One further point, Israel never should have been formed in Palestine--but in a part of Germany--they were the ones that deserved to lose land--they were the ones who the world would condemn for further anti-Semitism--they were the one where Jews spoke the native dialect.  Zionism was Final Solution plan B--another way to get Jews out of Europe.

    Actions speak louder than petitions.

    by melvynny on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 06:49:08 AM PDT

  •  The Holy Land will have peace of either two kinds (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    shaharazade, liz, stargaze

    the peace of neighbors - or the peace of the grave.

    But it will most certainly have peace of one kind or the other.

    It's fairly clear what kind of peace the mobs mentioned in the diary are after: They just don't yet entertain the scenario that they'll all but assure the same for themselves.

    Why they're missing the danger is understandable: They're upset, but it's more. They are also too close to the fire of mutual hatred...and too accustomed to its deceptive warmth, too in the habit of bringing more fuel to the fireside, to recognize that they are burning.

    •  Love the Hate More Than Hate to Love (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      shaharazade, cskendrick
      Why they're missing the danger is understandable: They're upset, but it's more. They are also too close to the fire of mutual hatred...and too accustomed to its deceptive warmth, too in the habit of bringing more fuel to the fireside, to recognize that they are burning.
      One sometimes gets the feeling that participants in this pas de deux by now love their hate more than anything else and won't allow it to be ripped from their bosoms.  One would have imagined that all of them would have discovered other things more worthwhile to cling to.  If ever the concept of memes spreading like a virus might apply, this is it, and the results are clearly just as deadly as something like Ebola.

      "Love the Truth, defend the Truth, speak the Truth, and hear the Truth" - Jan Hus, d.1415 CE

      by PrahaPartizan on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 08:02:44 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  May the nightmare of Zionism end to free the op... (9+ / 0-)

    May the nightmare of Zionism end to free the oppressor and the oppressed. Equality is possible.

  •  This is not the Judaism I know (12+ / 0-)

    This is the first time I have not spoken up on facebook when I felt strongly about something.  I am paralyzed.  I have Orthodox friends and I have always tried to point out their prejudices to them- but this line that they have crossed may not be repairable One acquaintance even shared the false propaganda that the Palestinian child was killed by  his own for being gay with the heading _"they always lie"

    They have lashed out at Obama as if it was his fault and complained about his prescient statement against revenge. His sympathy was apparently not enough. Yet, from this group, not yet one word of sympathy or horror for the Palestinian victims,

    But as I said this is not the judaism I know.  I went to an Orthodox school for part of my education.  One morning the Rabbi called the whole school in for a lecture.  He was crying.  Someone had jokingly written a racist comment on a form and hos sorrow was overwhelming. That was not who we were.

    I am agnostic but if I were observant I know what synagogue I would attend. A couple had been active members of the synagogue, the husband Jewish-America the woman Asian-American.  When the man fled to Israel with the children and all of their money.  The synagogue pooled together and raised a huge amount of money to help the mother get her children back.

    We just commemorated the anniversary of the freedom riders, a very Jewish cause.

    But the hatred of some (mostly orthodox) for the Arabs is absolutely blinding. In their eyes they are genuinely the victims,no matter what happens.  And I for the moment am still silent. Until now I had the excuse that I was waiting for the fact to come in. But now they have.  

    Part of me hopes that the discovery that jews have been arrested for this murder will act as a mirror, and there will be an wakening from the blindness.  If not  though lifetime friendships could end.

  •  Middle East (3+ / 0-)

    Take religion out of the equation and I wonder what would happen.  

    Maybe us heathen agnostics would have a zionist, jihadist inquisition against our mortal enemies, the atheists.  We will never be able to decide amongst ourselves which version of hell we won't be going to.  

  •  you are a hero, david. (6+ / 0-)

    You really are.

    SPES MEA IN DEO EST.

    by commonmass on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 07:27:54 AM PDT

  •  David, this essay is so good, I shared a link (4+ / 0-)

    to it on a website where people were mostly posting that the Palestinians are the side who teach hatred and the Israelis at least do not do that!  It was so hard to get through to people. Most people in the US have no clue as to what is actually occurring and what the state of Israel is perpetuating under the radar.

  •  Who can translate the sign and caption in the p... (0+ / 0-)

    Who can translate the sign and caption in the photos from Hebrew?

  •  I was brought up in a pro-Zionist environment (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Zornorph

    and  I found the OPs comments to be simple BS.  He like all in this tragic mess, has an agenda and he will stick to it by gosh.

  •  What's necessary now (4+ / 0-)

    I made this comment in the other diary.

    Israelis and Palestinians both have committed terrible and gruesome crimes against children.

    The leaders of Israel, the Palestinian Authority and Hamas now must make crystal clear to their people that violence, incitement to violence and bloodshed cannot be tolerated.

    The volume must now be turned down.

    I fear anything else will lead to a major war that must be avoided.

    •  The volume must always be turned down. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ExpatGirl, BMScott, hester

      Too bad only one out of every hundred or so diaries discussing the A-I conflict actually really takes such a tone.

      I've recently met this diarist, and I like him as a person, if even though I profoundly disagree with him on some issues.

      And particularly, the fact that his diaries regularly attract very unhelpful and ignorant and hateful comments like these.

      A couple even aimed at him, astonishingly enough.

      When even comments like these, directed at David, of all people, garner support in his diaries, and I'm the only one here who is willing to point out the absolute ridiculousness of same, that's when one should know there is a problem.

      •  I see the ugliness coming from both sides. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        JayinPortland, BMScott, Brecht

        Even in this diary.

        In our criminal justice system, a Republican is presumed innocent until the 2nd Coming. - Gooserock

        by ExpatGirl on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 10:01:10 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Jay's post is extreme trolling. (0+ / 0-)

          Talk about "very unhelpful".

          •  I agree. I was trying to be diplomatic. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Brecht, jqb

            The links were completely one sided.

            In our criminal justice system, a Republican is presumed innocent until the 2nd Coming. - Gooserock

            by ExpatGirl on Mon Jul 07, 2014 at 05:15:54 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Everything he writes is extremely one-sided. (1+ / 1-)
              Recommended by:
              ExpatGirl
              Hidden by:
              JNEREBEL

              In his last diary he wrote

              Do you angrily blame Jews for what you perceive to be 'human rights abuses' while completely ignoring attacks such as this?
              The hypocrisy is breathtaking. As Noam Chomsky has said, our primary moral responsibility is to criticize the crimes of our own side, the one we are most likely to influence. But never will you see someone like Jay do that, or to write a similar diary about the state violence perpetrated against the occupied and controlled Palestinian population who are treated as human refuse, not even allowed to have an economy (per Max Blumenthal who I heard interviewed by Ian Masters today). Instead he writes
              Israel will continue to defend herself, by any means necessary.  Terrorists be damned...
              and in the comments to that blog,
              I oppose those who like to pretend that there is an equivalence between terrorists and Western civilians.
              The racism is appalling. Frankly, I consider Jay to be evil. Fortunately, fewer and fewer people at Dk will pay attention to him or people like him. Liberals such as the OP here are waking up.
      •  Trolling your ideology as always. n/t (0+ / 0-)
        •  I'll take your concern... (0+ / 0-)

          ...with every ounce of reflection it warrants, whoever you are.

          Just out of curiosity, I had to look up your comments.  Do you ever do anything but call others names?

          I'd suggest you might perhaps take up a new gig, then perhaps others might consider taking you seriously.

          •  That intellectually dishonest tu quoque argument (0+ / 0-)

            is typical of you and other blind ideologues. I didn't express any concern, just an obvious fact about you. ExpatGirl wrote, "I agree. I was trying to be diplomatic. The links were completely one sided."  Her comments deserve consideration and respect; yours, so predictable and coming from a deeply warped, emotionally immature, place of tribal hatred do not. You called out numerous posts and called them not just "very unhelpful" but "ignorant" and "hateful" when there was no hate in them, and saying nothing about a blatantly hateful poster who admitted hsr own hate and projected it on everyone else ... and you did it under the subject line "The volume must always be turned down." ... such hypocrisy and deep deep intellectual dishonesty ... it is people like you who are turning the OP away from Israel and Zionism. It is people like you who have undermined the belief that my parents gave me that we Jews are the good guys. There's no chance that any of this will reach through the layers of ideological fog that cloud your mind; I write it not for you but for me. And I won't waste my time responding to your predictably dishonest rejoinder.

      •  So let me see if I've got this right: (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        AoT, jqb

        Your objection to my comment is that I don't reflexively support either side of this conflict? My objection to this diary was very clearly based on David's ongoing "love" for Israel and Zionism despite all of the clear provocations to let it go. It was based on the axiom that one cannot simultaneously support oppression and progressive values. And yes, people like you being deliberately obtuse about anything anybody says in order to nurture your outrage du jour are definitely part of the problem. And sorry, I don't support or oppose anything reflexively. Wish I could say the same for you.

        "Given the choice between a Republican and someone who acts like a Republican, people will vote for a real Republican every time." Harry Truman

        by MargaretPOA on Mon Jul 07, 2014 at 03:57:15 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  No. (0+ / 0-)

          But you've actually done a fine job right here in this reply summing up my 'objection' (I actually do not 'object' to your comment, as I could hardly care less about it, but I did think it a prime example of a serious problem on display here, as noted above) once again.

          It truly boggles the mind to ponder what you might consider to be a 'reflexive' opponent of something.

          And I think your concept of 'outrage,' and who is showing same here, is wildly at odds with reality, to put it kindly.

  •  A sad set of events and slain teen agers, hope (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    PeterHug, jqb

    seems to have hidden and we all feel alone or vengeful.  I want to find words to convey some peace here even though they seem out of joint too, but it's all we got in the face of this terrible blood letting of children. So much history soaked in the blood of so many, and yet the slain teens parents call for peace and not revenge, imagine this in the face of such a loss and calling for peace, I am amazed by these acts of selflessness by grieving parents.  Somehow we must turn away from killing and violence and revenge or it will be our lot in life and hope will be no more for Israelis or Palestinians.

  •  Next Year (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Geenius at Wrok, PeterHug, Lepanto, jqb

    Democracy in Jerusalem.

    This aggression will not stand, man.

    by kaleidescope on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 08:44:39 AM PDT

  •  What I'd like to suggest to you is that (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    stargaze

    segregation is a widely shared impulse and responds to the tension that exists between the urge to individual liberty and the interest/usefulness associated with keeping other people in place. Community relies on keeping a group of people together in a more or less fixed place and that conflicts with the individual inclination, characteristic of all mobile organisms, to roam. Or, to put it yet another way, the imperative towards community, a beneficial construct, is likely to spawn resistance. So, it is useful to fix on some external justification for keeping people in place and to serve as a repository for the anger associated with being restrained.
    When one population is to be kept in place and another is to be blamed, the evidence of this bifurcation is what we call segregation -- a situation in which two or more populations are subject to control that is disguised as protection.
    In the Israel/Palestine situation, both populations are effectively in prisons, but the Israelis don't know it. Indeed, the expansion of settlements is designed to further the impression that the Israelis are free. It may even be that increasing settlements and putting additional pressure on Palestine both serve the purpose of convincing the Israelis that their protectors are not imposing restraints.
    If that hypothesis has merit, then that suggests the increasing aggression against Palestinians is evidence that Israel's rulers are increasingly insecure about their dominion.

    There are immediate victims and there are indirect victims. The former don't know why they are being attacked and the latter don't know they are being restrained. The U.S. aggression on Iraq was part of a similar pattern. Russia and China were to be impressed with our prowess. So the cradle of civilization got bombed to smithereens.

    http://hannah.smith-family.com

    by hannah on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 09:10:15 AM PDT

  •  I want my trees back (16+ / 0-)

    I came to the conclusions that the OP has reached 20 years ago.  I was born an American Jew, went to Hebrew School and was bar-mitzvah'd.  I heard about how glorious Israel was from my grandmother who happened to also be a champion of Justice, with a capital "J."  Israel was all about Justice.  So, when my grandmother gave me certificates for my birthday instead of a toy, I was happy to contribute to the cause of Justice.  Those certificates were for trees to be planted in my name in Israel.  I was proud of it.

    Education and critical thinking is a bitch.  It became obvious to me that Israel was not at all about Justice.  It was about oppression and occupation.  What gave me hope was that back then a slight majority of Israeli citizens were against the oppression of the Palestinians.  That is no longer the case.  Israeli children, just like the children in Madrasses, are indoctrinated into hating Arabs and Palestinians.

    The only answer is a one-state solution.  Until that happens I continue to want my trees back.

  •  I remember the outrage (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Tonedevil, tb92, PeterHug, stargaze

    to Silko's Almanac of the Dead some 20 years ago because of her implication in the book that Hitler had accomplished his purpose even if he hadn't exterminated every Jew, that instead the Jewish people had internalized Hitler and were now doing to themselves and to others what Hitler had wanted all along.

    I lost a couple of friends because I couldn't denounce Silko's words, and not because I wholeheartedly believed them---I was very young and very naive, and I couldn't denounce her words because I didn't fully understand them.

    And they've haunted me ever since. Every time I read about Israel, they pop into my mind. Even reading this diary, those words pop into my mind.

    I still haven't decided one way or the other---I'm not sure it is something anyone can make a cut and dry yes or no true or false decision about.

    What I do know is, if a person or a culture does not heal themselves, they will either repeat what was done to them in some way over and over again, or they will perpetuate it on some selected other.

    •  Consider Ms Silko's heritage (5+ / 0-)

      Leslie Marmon Silko is a great writer because she stands firmly in her Indian heritage as a daughter of Puebloan people's, descended of the Anasazi.

      Native Americans have a right to consider the holicaust and to comment on comparisons between what was going on in America's past with what happened more recently in Europe.  

      Hitler has been quoted as having looked at the eradication of indigenous people as a model for the Final Solution.  

      Today we see echoes ramify around the world.  One could say that the Palestinian people are in a position similar to that of various tribal groups in proximity to settlers of the latter nineteenth century.  Even the rhetoric is suggestive.

      How can people not notice how history echoes?

      hope that the idiots who have no constructive and creative solutions but only look to tear down will not win the day.

      by Stuart Heady on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 12:35:29 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Exactly. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        PeterHug

        I chose not to go into her history as I didn't want to detract from the diary ... although it is, in fact, a necessary part of the puzzle.

        It's a brilliant book, even though she ran out of steam at the end. But for as experienced as I was 20 years ago, I was incredibly naive, and I first heard about many, many things that are now front page news on CNN (child sex trafficking, for example) in this book.

        Brilliant woman---brilliant book. My mind is still wracked with questions that first arose reading it.

    •  All any of us can do (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      indubitably

      is the best we can...and make damned sure it's good enough.

      Both in the Middle East as well as in the rest of the world, we all need to find ways to work together better, and to stop the unreasoning (sorry, but it is) hatred that poisons any possibility of compromise and progress.

      As we - all of us - face the huge problems that are coming down the pike as AGW, resource depletion, and population growth come together into a perfect storm, the one thing we don't need is avoidable distractions.

  •  Thank you David for posting this. I read through (7+ / 0-)

    a good portion of the comments.  I'd like to add this.  I was brought up, like you, in a fairly progressive Jewish home.  I identify with my Jewishness in a very different manner these days.  I rarely attend synagogue.  I just feel I no longer fit in that community.  Having said that, I want to recount an incident that I experienced while traveling to Israel with my family.
    We went during Desert Shield.  We called the consulate in NY and they did not discourage us from going.  In fact, they basically said there is always strife in that area so it wouldn't be much different from any other day.
    We did the organized tour thing, the group was largely Jewish.  At the time they were still taking tourists into the West Bank.  Our driver was a rather large muscular man and our guide had studied at the same Hebrew University you attended.  I was glad that we were able to go to Jericho and to visit the tomb of Rachel.  I don't know how many of the commenters realize that these sites are located in Palestinian territory.  We went into a bakery that was also a place to change dollars into shekels.  
    I went outside by myself as I was still a sunworshipper in those days and didn't want to miss a minute of it.  I looked up and saw a group of young men holding rocks.  They were a fair distance away, over 100 feet.  They yelled over to me that George Bush (HW) was evil.  The rocks bouncing from one hand to the other.  And the liberal in me yelled back, that I agreed wholeheartedly.  I also added that what can one expect when the American public get duped into voting in a former director of the CIA as their CiC.  They thought about it for a minute.  Then dropped their rocks, waved and went back to what they had been doing.  I smiled broadly and waved back.  It was the first time in my life that I realized that these were people who knew what was causing their strife.  It was not my Jewishness that made them angry, it was that I was an American.
    One thing that people must always keep in mind is that these settlements are being built/financed by Evangelicals from the US who are doing everything in their power to bring about Armageddon.  It does make one wonder, why they want to bring about the end of humanity.
    Oh, and Bibi is such a piece of crap, don't get me started on that.
    Shalom, David

    "We know too much to go back and pretend" - Helen Reddy (humble cosmos shaker)

    by ditsylilg on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 09:42:13 AM PDT

    •  Exactly (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Tonedevil, ditsylilg, writeofwinter
      One thing that people must always keep in mind is that these settlements are being built/financed by Evangelicals from the US who are doing everything in their power to bring about Armageddon.  It does make one wonder, why they want to bring about the end of humanity.
      So glad to see someone in these comments finally say it.

      These same evangelicals were a huge driving force in the invasion of Iraq.

    •  "these sites are located in Palestinian territory" (0+ / 0-)

      What's it matter where some bones in a hole are located? It's not even as though they really are the bones of Rachel, or that there ever was such a person.

      •  Well, then how about Jericho and Bethlehem? (0+ / 0-)

        "We know too much to go back and pretend" - Helen Reddy (humble cosmos shaker)

        by ditsylilg on Mon Jul 07, 2014 at 05:29:27 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  What about them? (0+ / 0-)

          Do try to write complete sentences so I can have some idea what you're trying to communicate. I have no idea why I should care about some dusty old names or places or what "territory" they are in.

          •  Ok. How about this. So you have no concern that (0+ / 0-)

            people who care about their heritage are unable to visit places that they deem sacred because the newer residents have no respect for the past, present or future?  If Christians were unable to visit Bethlehem because they were unwelcome in the West Bank, you don't think that would cause an uproar?  
            When the Greeks conquered, they were cognizant of the culture and heritage of the residents.  They didn't destroy that culture and heritage, they added to it by introducing Greek culture and heritage.  The Romans on the other hand did the opposite.  If the Jews took over Mecca, there would be a great ruckus.  Instead in Jerusalem, the site of the First and Second temples. the Dome of the Rock sits over it.  Jews are not granted entrance, and are relegated to the Western Wall, the only wall still standing from the Second temple.

            If we have no access to our history, how can we learn from it?

            "We know too much to go back and pretend" - Helen Reddy (humble cosmos shaker)

            by ditsylilg on Tue Jul 08, 2014 at 05:49:32 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  And now they tell us (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    BigAlinWashSt, jqb, Thorby Baslim

    a Palestinian kid has been burned alive. Religion and politics do not mix. No country should be based on any religion, and until all countries are relieved of the burden of pleasing some God whose rules are revealed to us by a few elite who never have to prove how they know, people will suffer.

    "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal."--Emma Goldman

    by ebgill on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 09:46:11 AM PDT

  •  You ask When? (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    PeterHug, jqb, Thorby Baslim

    You ask "If not now, when?"

    And you say...

    "I'm not ready to abandon the dream of a Jewish state"

    There are a lot of things that keep us separate from one another.  Maybe we get rid of those.  Tops amongst them is religion.  Start with yourself.  Walk away from your religion for 30 days.  Break the rules.  Examine why you do them.  Consider that if you were born elsewhere you would have a different religion.  Think about how the believing mind allows our children to stay safe to the words of the parent but perpetuates bronze age myths far past their usefulness.

    Until then... there is no when.

    •  Rethinking your life from first principles - (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Thorby Baslim

      a good thing for anyone (everyone) to do from time to time.

      The last time I did, it was inadvertent (my girlfriend broke up with me and turned everything I had been planning on for the rest of my life upside down) and it was painful.  But I must say that it was useful and rewarding.

  •  So many comments. (11+ / 0-)

    But I can't move past that sign those two girls are holding and how happy they look holding it.

    If you have ever been to Berlin and done a proper history tour through the museums, you will have seen signs much the same. Held by different people who looked just as happy with their hate.

    This is devastating. And very, very dangerous.

    In our criminal justice system, a Republican is presumed innocent until the 2nd Coming. - Gooserock

    by ExpatGirl on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 09:51:31 AM PDT

    •  Can't recommend this enough (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ybruti, ExpatGirl, Thorby Baslim

      As I've stated above, I've never spent much time dwelling on Zionism, being a Catholic born but long time Atheist. I deplored the violence done by both sides but it's always been remote to me. When I was exposed to hard core Zionism from an American Jew suddenly one night, it was the racism that jumped out at me.  Since then, it's always the unrepentant racism that gives me pause. It's so totally un self conscious in nature, like the speaker feels totally justified in speaking that way. I'll never get that.

      "Given the choice between a Republican and someone who acts like a Republican, people will vote for a real Republican every time." Harry Truman

      by MargaretPOA on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 10:44:24 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  An interesting commonality of phrase (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Agathena, jqb

    "Palestinians, accordingly, were portrayed as just one in a series of people who have risen up throughout history to destroy us." (David, the OP)

    "In every generation, they [our enemies] rise against us to destroy us. However, the Holy One, blessed be He, saves us from their hand." (the Passover haggadah, a portion that all seder participants say aloud each year)

    "In every generation they rise up to destroy us, and we must remember that this could happen to us in the future. We must therefore, as a state, be prepared for this." (Yitzhak Rabin, Haaretz, 27 April 1987)*

    Not only is this idea many hundreds of years old (how old is the haggadah?), but it's one that even a peacemaker such as Rabin treated as absolute truth. And why not?

    *As quoted in "Why Does Fear Override Hope in Societies Engulfed by Intractable Conflict, as It Does in the Israeli Society?" by Daniel Bar-Tal of Tel Aviv University; originally in the journal Political Psychology, fall 2001 (www.tau.ac.il/~daniel/pdf/8.pdf).

  •  asdf (0+ / 0-)
    In first grade, I asked the teacher if the 'Indians' still celebrated Thanksgiving. When she asked why I wanted to know, I responded, "Because the people they ate with took their land," something I'd learned from an honest mother.
  •  Thank you. I was instilled with similar humanis... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    PeterHug

    Thank you. I was instilled with similar humanistic and progressive values in equal parts by watching the original Star Trek and my liberal reform Jewish synagogue. I truly appreciate your writings. Heartbroken and conflicted.

  •  Israel is necessary (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Thorby Baslim, hassanm

    to protect Jews from Christians.

     Jews were persecuted for thousands of years, but not from Palestinians. They were persecuted by Christians.
       Until this past century, Jews and Palestinians lived in relative peace.

    "The oppressors most powerful weapon is the mind of the oppressed." - Stephen Biko

    by gjohnsit on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 10:25:22 AM PDT

  •  Great diary. But one-state will never ever work. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    janemas

    How can anyone imagine that the Israelis and Palestinians will ever be able to live comfortably in one state, after the events of the past 65+ years? Multinational states have collapsed one after the other (Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, the USSR and others) not to mention that even multinational Western democracies have had significant problems (Canada, Belgium).

    A one-state solution has existed twice, and it has never worked. The first time was during the Mandate period (1920-1948) and the second time has been currently, since 1967.

    It's easy to lose hope when it comes to Israel/Palestine, but there is some progress. To start with, almost everyone now accepts (at least in theory) a two-state solution. For decades after 1948, the Arab states refused to even talk about accepting Israel. No one rushed to establish a Palestinian state in the West Bank/Gaza then, even though it would have been doable. Similarly, it took some time before both Israel and the US accepted in principle if not in practice that the Palestinians deserve their state. In 1988, the Republican platform said "we oppose a Palestinian state". Today, both the Jewish establishment in the US (AIPAC, ADL etc.) and Israeli right-wingers like Netanyahu support a Palestinian state in theory. There are just too many TSINOs (Two States in Name Only) out there.

    •  So you think the status quo is "comfortable"? (0+ / 0-)
      How can anyone imagine that the Israelis and Palestinians will ever be able to live comfortably in one state
      Great strawman you've got there.

      Two state solution is dead.

      •  It's not comfortable. (0+ / 0-)

        Yes, there is one state right now. And the result is permanent conflict.

        This is why only two states can lead to any type of peace.

        •  Have you looked at a map of Palestine lately? (5+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          stargaze, Lepanto, AoT, jqb, Brecht

          It will be impossible to make an independent state from the Swiss cheese that is now Palestine. This WAS intentional and the Israelis have no intention of stopping, even if it takes a hundred years to completely eliminate any vestiges of what was once Palestine. The current Bantustan will be gradually broken up into smaller and smaller segments, each completely walled in and isolated from each other like open air prisons.

        •  Severe logic fail. (0+ / 0-)
          Yes, there is one state right now.
          Yes, there one state ruled by a group of people that is treating another group of people as refuse. The obvious solution is to stop doing that.
          And the result is permanent conflict.
          Circular argument ... you are claiming that it cannot end because it cannot end. Reasoning is completely lacking.
          This is why only two states can lead to any type of peace.
          Completely unsupported conclusion. South Africa is an obvious counterexample, but there are many others.

          And, again, two states is dead ... it's unreachable. Read Max Blumenthal's Goliath.

  •  Ethnic cleansing across the region... (0+ / 0-)

    The way it is done in the West Bank may look different, be arranged under different pretexts and cover but in the end what is the difference between what is happening to Palestinian communities in the West Bank and the elimination of all subgroups by displacement or death in Syria and Iraq? Long standing Christian, Jewish, and Muslim communities in those countries have been erased by extremists of one stripe or another. Regardless of the given reasons for removal and regardless of the means or the relative claimed morality of the removers, the result is hardly different between the slow crushing of Palestinians on the West Bank and the faster xenophobic destruction in Iraq and Syria. Is slower more relentless reshaping and exclusion morally better? "Kinder, gentler" ethnic cleansing is still ethnic cleansing and whether there are still marginalized survivors alive, their community, continuity and history is irretrievably maimed.

    Pogo & Murphy's Law, every time. Also "Trust but verify" - St. Ronnie (hah...)

    by IreGyre on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 11:09:42 AM PDT

  •  Thank you (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    PeterHug, jqb

    Please keep sharing your thoughts and experiences. I learned long ago not to share  my opinions on this subject because of the immediate accusations of anti-Semitism that follow anyone who critiques the actions of the Israeli government. I gave up. I almost didn't post this. That is how tight the stranglehold on these discussions is, at least in America. So I will count on you to speak up for peace. Please know there are a lot of us hoping for it but we are silenced and we keep our mouths shut to avoid the inevitable derailment of the conversation.

    Is fheàrr fheuchainn na bhith san dùil

    by bull8807 on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 11:30:07 AM PDT

  •  David, yours is the finest writing I've yet seen (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    PeterHug

    on this difficult subject.

    I'll be thinking about this diary for a long time.

    God spare me the Heart to fight them... I'll fight the Pirates forever. -Mother Jones

    by JayRaye on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 11:38:13 AM PDT

  •  Where was the concern of the world when (0+ / 0-)

    the Copts were being hung and their churches burned in Egypt?

    Sectarian violence of all types is wrong.   We must call it out for what it is, whenever and wherever we see it.

    Much madness is divinest sense, much sense divinest madness.

    by SpamNunn on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 11:58:33 AM PDT

  •  Every religious conflict is really about power (0+ / 0-)

    Leaders use appeals to morality or ethnic identity for propaganda purposes, but this is really about land and water rights in an arid desert.  One group believes that God has promised them the land and another group refuses to leave.

    Israelis and Palestinians are both suffering.  As Gandhi famously observed, "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."

    Feel trickled on yet?

    by War4Sale on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 12:17:07 PM PDT

  •  Basic tenet of No Taxation Without Representation (0+ / 0-)

    should apply equally to Palestinians living in the West Bank as it should to Americans who take it for granted.  

    "The end of democracy and the defeat of the American Revolution will occur when government falls into the hands of lending institutions and moneyed incorporations." ~ Thomas Jefferson

    by Lefty Coaster on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 12:21:36 PM PDT

  •  Wow. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    wigwam

    Thank you. I have not followed much about the I/P conflict. Just an observer that wishes there were more peace in the world generally.

    This blockquote stood out:

    Their inflamed hatred does not exist in a vacuum: it is an ongoing presence, growing by the day, encompassing ever larger segments of Israeli society, nurtured in a public environment of resentment, insularity and victimhood, fostered and fed by politicians and pundits.
    Seems we are experiencing the same thing here (even if not to the same degree): Tea Party/hateful conservatism/racism/police violence/etc. nurtured in part by the same things. Seems the solutions to these issues would be similar: (minimally) counter and reeducate/show people a better way. Seems there is much work to do.

    "No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money." -- JC, Matthew 6:24

    by Chi on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 12:40:52 PM PDT

  •  I was moved and impressed by the father (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Agathena, realnoid, vcmvo2, jqb

    of one of the Jewish boys who, in response to the murder of Mohammad Abu Khieder, condemned the killing and abuse of "any young boy, Jewish or Arab"...

    When I heard that the boys came from families living on an illegal settlement I envisioned a stereotype, which was wrong of me. I continue to believe that the settlements add to the climate of fear, anger, and violence as do the militant settlers...

    ...But at the end of the day these were boys, all four of them. It's a great shame that their deaths are being used as a pretext - and to Bibi they are little more - for more death and destruction.

    If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about answers. - Thomas Pynchon

    by chuckvw on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 02:14:40 PM PDT

  •  To do unto others the awful things (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jqb

    that were done to some of one's ancestors by a whole different nation is flatly sociopathic.

  •  Isn't Israel.. (0+ / 0-)

    ..currently run by their Tea Party (i.e. BiBi's party) ?

  •  As a Goy who lived in Israel from 1963-1965 (0+ / 0-)

    I feel pain as well.  I went there to do my post doc with Aaron Katzir Katchalsky as my mentor.  I also did some work with his brother Ephriam, who later became President of Israel  That was after Aaron was murdered by Japanese terrorists in 1972 in the airport.  They were supposedly acting on behalf of the Palestinians what ever that means.

    Aaron was, as many others around me were, a pacifist and wanted peace with his Palestinian brothers and sisters.  When we commemorated his wonderful life in 1982 we arrived as Israel went to war on Lebanon.  We gave homage to this peaceful man as planes loaded with bombs flew to bomb Lebanon.

    Before I went to work in Israel in 1963 I read every piece of history I could.  I have always thought the Palestinians were  pawns and victims in a wider struggle where there were no honorable players.

    It has only gotten worse and I see the Israelis as victims of the worst kind.  Just as those deranged people in Europe who oppressed them made themselves victims of their ugly hate.

    Franz Fannon wrote about the psychology of oppression.  He was the first to make it clear to me that using power to dominate and oppress and commit genocide has its effect on the perpetrators.

    So I am hurting for people I loved in a region I fell in love with.  Both sides are doomed to suffer the consequences of the colonial powers domination of the region.  Like Iraq the situation has a history.  Europe, the USSR, and the USA are the real villains here.

    An idea is not responsible for who happens to be carrying it at the moment. It stands or falls on its own merits.

    by don mikulecky on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 05:44:48 PM PDT

  •  You are not the only one with such feelings ... (4+ / 0-)

    Published today in Haaretz:

    Now we know: In the Jewish state, there is pity and humane feelings only for Jews, rights only for the Chosen People. The Jewish state is only for Jews.

    Being left wing or a seeker of justice in the Jewish state is deemed a crime, civil society is considered treacherous, true democracy an evil. In a Jewish state – dreamed of not only by the right wing but also by the supposed center-left, including Tzipi Livni and Lapid – democracy is blurred.

    In the Jewish state, there is no remnant of the biblical injunction to treat the minority or the stranger with justice. There are no more Jews left who marched with Martin Luther King or who sat in jail with Nelson Mandela. The Jewish state, which Israel insists the Palestinians recognize, must first recognize itself. At the end of the day, at the end of a terrible week, it seems that a Jewish state means a racist, nationalistic state, meant for Jews only.

    Fiat justitia ruat caelum "Let justice be done though the heavens fall."

    by bobdevo on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 05:47:13 PM PDT

  •   ISRAEL AND THE WAR ON REALITY (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Don midwest

    Mr. Gershon's POV is much appreciated especially
    after reading Goliath by Max Blumenthal. I keep up
    with events but previously avoided reading books
    on Israel.

    I also believe "in the promise that is Israel". I do not
    believe in the promise of Pastor John "Blood Moon"
    Hagee, (mentioned in Goliath) his employment of deliberately stupid political theater that his followers
    accept at face value but which also seem to be
    designed to bait liberals to react with amazement &
    to underestimate them.

    I do not underestimate the amount of money right wing
    radicals in the US & Israel have access to.

    I see NY & NJ  Dem. Senators ready to vote against
    their own President regarding Iran. I see the pic
    of the beaten American relative and I am reminded
    of the reality of life and loathing that is Israel today
    as reflected in a book that is accurate but at the same
    time one sided in order to cut through the nonsense
    of the MSM and a wall of hasbara.

    I am reminded of the Coen Bros. movie "Burn After
    Reading" which had a Jewish character causing
    murder & mayhem just so she could afford plastic
    surgery. Most of the implications were lost on me
    at the time but I got the basic idea of Israel
    desperately trying to prop up her image through
    whatever means necessary. A woman in front
    of me in the theater was going through all kinds
    of overblown drama.

    Which also reminds me that political theater
    is a speciality with the right wing in the US & Israel
    and in every country where radical minorities
    seem to be gaining in reaction to hard economic reality.

  •  Legal pot sales start here this week (0+ / 0-)

    Yea!

    "The end of democracy and the defeat of the American Revolution will occur when government falls into the hands of lending institutions and moneyed incorporations." ~ Thomas Jefferson

    by Lefty Coaster on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 06:03:57 PM PDT

  •  Violence is no solution to anything. Joining you (0+ / 0-)

    in urging Israel find a path that does not involve violence and gives credence to real concerns, needs, and rights of the people of Gaza and Palestine.

    Thanks for the heartfelt and well-written diary.

  •  I think a 1 state solution is truly the best hope. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    native, jqb

    What could possibly have been a Palestinian state has been continuously eroded by Jewish settlements.  And now, I fail to see the Palestinian incentive to content themselves with what's left.  In a decade, Muslims will outnumber Jews in Israel.  I'm not naive enough to think that will give Palestinians equal or greater power right away.  But it won't be possible to sideline them forever.  If the end result is a state in which Jewish and Palestinian interests must both be considered for political decisions - it may not be easy, but that is the best possible solution.  No state should ever exist to serve a single ethnic or religious group.

    There are thousands hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root. -Thoreau

    by Frameshift on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 07:01:39 PM PDT

    •  Jews vs Moslems, (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      jqb

      Moslems vs Hindus, Christianists vs Hedonists... is this the way we put an end to war?

      Israel: founding a modern, post-industrial state on the basis of a tribal and controversial religion. Why?

      And then, what good has come of it, of this entire Zionist enterprise, from a humanist point of view? Does Yahweh approve?

  •  Once again you are a liar (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TLS66
    By nightfall, with the ink of Shalev's pen barely dried, horrific news came that a Palestinian teen from East Jerusalem had been abducted and killed by Israeli settlers in an act of revenge
    No, in fact we did not know who did this for several days. You assumed the worst. In this case the worst appears to have turned out to be true, but that is no justification for your prejudice.

    When I wrote my first diary on the kidnapping of the three Israelis, I consciously used the term missing rather than kidnapping because we weren't absolutely sure. In fact, they had already been murdered.

    You are part of the problem, throwing gasoline on the fire, not part of the solution.

    •  "In fact they had already been murdered" (8+ / 0-)

      And most-likely, Netanyahu knew it. If anyone fanned the flames, and had the reach to cause mayhem, it was him. He had hundreds of Palestinians arrested within hours, suspects homes were bulldozed, Gaza was bombed, and he looked those moms in the face and told them Israel would bring their boys back.

      Then, at their funerals, he called for revenge, and that's what he got. He incited, just like he did with Rabin.

      I can't believe you're laying this at David's feet, instead of where it belongs--with the sociopathic prime minister of Israel.

      The easily offended deserve to be easily offended.--God

      by Flyswatterbanjo on Sun Jul 06, 2014 at 09:39:51 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  You screaming liar (the charge is nonsense) (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Tonedevil

      are the one being part of the problem. You wear your Zionist ideology on your sleeve ... do you really suppose you're capable of intellectual honesty?

      •  jqb, most of your comments make valid points, but (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        poco

        you put so much vitriol in them, and some of them assume too far (mindreading, for instance).

        charliehall2 certainly supposes he's "capable of intellectual honesty", and it's wrong of you to accuse him of deliberately lying, I think. He's always very frank about his beliefs - they're just based on a worldview that's hugely different from most kossacks (at least about Israel).

        You have reasons to be angry, after all the wrongness that's happened for decades in the Middle East, and in US foreign policy. However, please be more careful about accusing and insulting other kossacks personally. You're pouring gasoline on an I/P fire that needs more calm understanding.

        "Every man has a right to utter what he thinks truth" Samuel Johnson

        by Brecht on Mon Jul 07, 2014 at 07:49:57 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I appreciate your intent but you haven't refuted (0+ / 0-)