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The following is a comment that I recently posted to a diary which tries to claim that one incident involving an armed white man that did not result in his being shot to death - proves that the problem is that police shoot black men, and not white.  But this is not only false - but is a dangerous misunderstanding - because it BLINDS us to the actual, underlying problem, of abuse of force by police.  And thus if we remain blinded as such - we will never solve the problem.  As I stated in this comment - simply republished her on its own - if we removed 100% of the racism - the shootings and fatalities would still continue.

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Yes - there is a glaring disparity when it comes to police abuses and minorities.

But the issue of police misuse of force - including deadly force - is NOT confined to the minority community.

It applies universally to all.  This is not a case where it was the color of the person that mattered.  But the professionalism of the officer.

The misuse of force and abuse of force - in the world-view of the national police culture - is actually a misunderstanding of the public as to what police do and are allowed to do.

They BELIEVE they have the right and authority to use deadly force in the manner we see in the Mike Brown case.

And they daily misuse force, as a result, resulting in the death and serious injury across the country, daily, of persons of all races, creeds, colors, persuasions, etc.

If we keep viewing this issue as a racial one - we will never solve the problem.

Yes - there is an additional racial element and dynamic - that causes certain communities to be disproportionately affected by this problem.

But the problem is not rooted in that broader social ill of racial disparity.

It is rooted in the national police culture - which sees only one color - it is "blue" vs you - and you can be black, white, pink or purple - and you are going to equally be the victim, in your particular instance, of this problem when you cross an officer imbued with this culture.

A culture backed by the departments across the nation.  Using unwritten policy and informal training - to substitute for the formal teaching they are provided and the written and adopted policies that they - and thus the overseeing political bodies - have approved.

You can remove 100% of the racism in America's police departments.  And the deadly shootings will continue.  Because they are not the result of that racial dynamic - but that police culture that has substituted the law with their own view of what they law OUGHT to be.

They assume they can shoot first and ask questions later. They assume they are supposed to shoot to kill - and not to stop - never to wound.  They assume they are supposed to go for the kill shot - shooting center-mass at the target.  They assume they are entitled - and are supposed to - to shoot until their magazine is empty. They assume they are allowed to shoot a fleeing suspect - because they are not "complying" with their orders.  They assume they are entitled to shoot to defend themselves - even if the threat, if there is such, is not one that will likely cause serious - let alone deadly - harm.

These are the unwritten norms of the national police culture. And they have nothing to do with race.  And this is the problem that has to be addressed - before the shootings and killings will stop.

There IS a racial disparity and problem when it comes to policing. It has an effect in having the abuses of authority seen in higher numbers in minority communities.   But it is NOT the problem underlying the fatalities.

11:33 AM PT: As predictable (and why so few people DARE to address this point) - I have already been called RACIST and engaged in DENIAL OF RACISM.

Of course - my first sentence sets out - that there IS (and thus I don't deny) a RACIAL ISSUE here.  Its just NOT THE CAUSE of the misuse and abuse of force and how and why police are "getting away with it."

11:50 AM PT: I am not going to answer or read any more comments.  I leave it to anyone who is reasonable enough - and actually reads what I say here - to deal with the ignorant comments that are populating this thread.

I'll leave it at this: The biggest enemy to progress - is found among the so-called left.  Because they will never defeat the right - with ignorance and knee-jerk reactions.

12:43 PM PT: I have been told - here - that I am a "Racial Denialist" - that I am a "White" "Middle Class" "Male" and thus my position is not credible - that I am engaged in (never heard this one before) "whitesplaining" - and that a "white man" is not entitled to tell a "black woman" anything.

THAT IS IGNORANCE.  AND THAT IS RACIST.  AND >> THAT << IS WHAT IS SUPPOSED TO BE INAPPROPRIATE HERE.

Not serious attempts - without fear of such ignorance - at addressing serious issues.

2:31 PM PT: People can keep HR'ing my defenses that I am NOT racist - and my openly calling those who make racist comments based on my race - as racist comments.  They are just as racist as those you condemn.

3:46 PM PT: This is my last comment on this. If people are unable to actually read what I say that is one thing.  But to accuse me of racism is intolerable as well as unfounded.  My record speaks for itself - as do my words here.  As for the many actually racists comments and posts - DailyKos has a real problem with not actually addressing those posts and comments head on.

Originally posted to Charlie Grapski on Sun Aug 31, 2014 at 10:50 AM PDT.

Also republished by Occupy Wall Street.

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Comment Preferences

  •  I'm going to repeat what I said in the (36+ / 0-)

    diary you're disagreeing with:

    This is the same argument as those claiming the issue isn't race, it's class.  That's wrong.  It is race.  It's always been race.

    That race and class issues have a good deal of crossover does not make what's true of one true of the other.  

    Open your eyes, for crying out loud, and recognize the foundational racism of the U.S.

    "...[Among] which are life, liberty, the enjoyment of the fruit of their own labor, and the pursuit of happiness."

    by Yasuragi on Sun Aug 31, 2014 at 11:03:02 AM PDT

    •  And I will repeat that you are wrong (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Tony McArthur, owlbear1

      This is not about race.  The racial dynamic is ON TOP OF the underlying cause of this problem.

      The cause is not racism.  But the misuse of force that police ROUTINELY engage in and BELIEVE they are entitled/empowered to use.

      •  You are often very insightful but on this issue (21+ / 0-)

        you need to listen to the people of color. It is a race problem first and a general abuse of power second. It's rather insulting to tell an oppressed population that it's all in their heads especially when all the numbers back up the accusations of the blatant racism.

        •  No - follow the logic (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          kaliope, owlbear1

          The problem her is the misuse and abuse of force by police.  And how that misuse/abuse has become normalized - and thus how and why it is not only used - but why the officers get away with it.

          If you don't address that problem - then the problem will persist.

          There is an ADDITIONAL factor that is very real - and it IS a RACIAL aspect.

          But it is not the cause of the "legitimization" of the police abuse of force.  It is the cause of the disproportionate misuse in certain communities and affecting certain classes of people.

          But it is not the reason why police believe their are within their authority to shoot to kill - as in the Brown case.  Nor is it the reason that the system deems their actions "justifiable."

          •  Mr. Grapski, you're missing the fact that your (0+ / 0-)

            words are rubbing salt into an open wound. I can agree with you that misuse and abuse of force by police is the root cause. But at some point you have to accept that, having made your statement even with acknowledgement of the fundamental racially-charged outcomes, trying to "convince" others logically to get an acknowledgement of the correctness of your opinion---in the face of rubbing salt in the raw and open wound, remember---comes across as badgering, if not bullying.

            I'm writing this almost a day after this series of exchanges started, and probably neither you nor any of the other participants will even see it. ...

            Poverty is not an accident. Like slavery and apartheid, it is man-made and can be removed by the actions of human beings. —Nelson Mandela

            by kaliope on Mon Sep 01, 2014 at 02:17:31 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  The same thing could have happened to a white teen (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        martini, kaliope, owlbear1

        the aftermath would have been different. The police might have behaved slightly better (depending on neighborhood). Had proper police been followed we would better know the facts and, perhaps the incident would not have occurred.

        I think Charlie is thinking out of the box.  From his point of view I totally get it.  You can't fix racism but you can blunt it with enforce law and agency procedures.

        Was the man who shot him racist?  We do not have enough information to positively say so.

        Did Ferguson police follow procedure.  Simple, unequivocal answer:  No.

        Racism is definitely part of this story.  Some people seem like they WANT this to be about race more than they want to know the truth...sadly...on both sides.  This serves only to make the situation worse.

        It is sad we can't have intelligent conversations without the whole point of the thread being dissolved.

        •  Thanks for whitesplaining, (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Denise Oliver Velez, kaliope

          Here's an example of an alive armed white teen:

          http://www.dailykos.com/...

          Most of the mass murdering aholes who didn't commit suicide are arrested. They're armed & alive.

          Gee it can't be because they're white, nope that isn't it.

          I voted Tuesday, May 6, 2014 because it is my right, my responsibility and because my parents moved from Alabama to Ohio to vote. Unfortunately, the republicons want to turn Ohio into Alabama.

          by a2nite on Sun Aug 31, 2014 at 04:23:12 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  i said COULD have (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            kaliope, Be Skeptical

            and BTW dude I believe more than likely Had Michael Brown been white he might still be alive.  what ALLOWS racist behavior on police forces is lax enforcement of practices and procedures. Why treat me as an opponent worthy of insult?

            •  Nope, wrong it's both; the police are (0+ / 0-)

              a part of the white supremacy structure. The Cobstitution is a racist document; there were no black people nor women in that room. There were slave owners & the people they co-opted. They got a great deal. Now we're dealing with their still racist descendents.

              Yeah, there's individual racists but their power is augmented & enabled by a white supremacist system.

              Put another way, the criminal injustice system is racist, all of it & they are some maybe many racist cops. Cops have permission to kill no lynch us; it keeps thing nice & orderly for the plantation owners for whom they work.

              As long as the police kill & harass what they deem rabble; it's all good.

              Black people don't choose to be rabble; OWS did for another example.

              I voted Tuesday, May 6, 2014 because it is my right, my responsibility and because my parents moved from Alabama to Ohio to vote. Unfortunately, the republicons want to turn Ohio into Alabama.

              by a2nite on Mon Sep 01, 2014 at 06:27:55 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  And 13,14 & 15 can be unequally (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                moviemeister76

                Enforced like every other amendment to the Constitution, just like the law. In fact slavery is still technically legal & state legislatures xare making it harder for the undesirable (non- RW racist) to vote because they always can oppress black people.

                Never mind, you look like a "yeah but ally".

                I voted Tuesday, May 6, 2014 because it is my right, my responsibility and because my parents moved from Alabama to Ohio to vote. Unfortunately, the republicons want to turn Ohio into Alabama.

                by a2nite on Mon Sep 01, 2014 at 06:39:42 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  yeah but (0+ / 0-)

                  I agree with everything   you say.  white guys who grow up wanting to be cops have a high % of Zimmermans. All OP was saying was that enforcing restrictions on enforcers is the first place to choke racist cop behavior. OP probably erred in trying to hilight his pov by saying Ferguson is not a racist problem. Ferguson pd gets away with this shit because they dont document anything and the prosecutor is probably a racist. Holder might help change that. I think it is absolutely disgusting that we live in a country where Wilson has a $300,000 fund and Brown is villified as thug by Fox.

                  my grandchildren are black. I see the world different. Daughters boyfriend pulled over 9 times for crooked license plate dim break light,and all kinds of bs that i have never been bothered with.  that was just so far this year. So yeah i dont know cause it doesnt happen to me but i do know without feeling the same pain n rage. Maybe to you whitesplaining is anything outside your pov. I can understand that. But at the end of the day where does it leave you?

        •  um, but it DOESN'T happen to white teens. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          thirty three and a third

          The statistics are in and they are very clear.

          Black men get killed by police every 28 hours.

          White men don't.

          Building Community. Creating Jobs. Donating Art to Community Organizations. Support the Katalogue

          by UnaSpenser on Mon Sep 01, 2014 at 11:48:31 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Race has no basis in fact. So, it cannot be the (0+ / 0-)

      cause of any effect.

      Some people are triggered to behave badly by certain superficial attributes. In pre-World War II Germany, it was necessary to affix an insignia on the target population because they could not be easily distinguished from the "natives."

      Making examples of some people to intimidate the rest of the population is a tried and true strategy because attacking innocent people is relatively risk free and because such an attack intimidates the large majority, whom it is not safe to go after. The attackers are bullies and cowards.
      Identifying the targets as the prompts for the behavior lets the attackers off scott free.

      Why do some people insist that their racial characteristics are determinative? Because that gives them some sense of importance and control. Being an innocent victim of irrational aggression is a very vulnerable position to be in.

  •  Because it HAS to be one OR (12+ / 0-)

    the other.

    So I see only tatters of clearness through a pervading obscurity - Annie Dillard

    by illinifan17 on Sun Aug 31, 2014 at 11:03:12 AM PDT

    •  There is a Racial Element - but its not the cause (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Ginny in CO

      The problem is the misuse of force.  The cause is the police culture that has made that use normalized and not deemed misuse.

      On top of that - there is a racial dynamic - that causes all police abuses to be disproportionately affecting racial minorities.  

      But again - you can remove the racism entirely.  But because that is not the cause of the normalized misuse/abuse of force - that abuse - and thus those deaths - will still continue.

      •  Seems to me you are trying to (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        kaliope

        separate causation from correlation. Police problem is cause, race and poverty are correlated.

        Behind the police problem are authoritarian power freaks IMHO. Race and poverty make AAs easy targets due to lack of power.

        I think this comment is a good illustration of the difference. Another situation is how far and fast the LGBT movement has succeeded against discrimination. As many have pointed out, this has a lot to do with the distribution being in all classes and races. Since the group includes a significant number who have higher class and power, not to mention their families and supporters, they have been increasingly more difficult targets.  

        My parents were involved in the civil rights movement 4 years before I was born, 62 years ago. I grew up with an awareness and understanding about discrimination very few whites had for years. I have degrees in sociology and nursing. The point you are trying to make may well be true and important. It certainly merits contemplation and discussion.

        However, the overwhelming traumatic experiences and lessons learned by AAs will inevitably interfere with an alternative explanation. I don't think it is worthwhile to just move to 'they all are part of the problem'. Science has thoroughly supported causation over correlation as the problem to correct first. It may simply be a battle that can't be fought at DKos at this time.

        I hope you will reconsider contributing here when the time out is done. I have been the recipient of inappropriate HRs when when I tried to explain a mistake I had made that triggered the first HRs. The mistake was essentially ignorance of a fact.

        Meanwhile you do excellent work and have earned respect for it.  There will be some very respectable people who will not understand or forgive your position. That is one of the hallmarks of being able to think outside the box.

        People who are crazy enough to think they can change the world, are the ones who do.
        Your battle, your choice.

        "People, even more than things, have to be restored, renewed, revived, reclaimed and redeemed; never throw out anyone. " Audrey Hepburn "A Beautiful Woman"

        by Ginny in CO on Sun Aug 31, 2014 at 05:22:36 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I'll try this once. If you were correct ... (5+ / 0-)

        wouldn't we be seeing a number of unarmed white people being killed by police violence on a regular basis?  (I'm not talking about people who are actually in the process of committing crimes.)

        Because it seems to me that if the problem were really police misuse of force, and if race weren't the "real" problem, but merely a contributing factor, then you'd have a least a small number of unarmed, innocent white people unjustifiably killed by police.  But you don't offer any actual examples of that here.  You make the unsupported claim that it isn't really race, but I don't see anything that backs you up.

        You were clearly motivated to write this by Denise's front page piece.  She used a real case that vividly illustrates the very different ways in which whites and blacks are treated by police.  You say that the difference in that case was "police professionalism" or something like that.  Again, however, I don't really see any actual evidence for your thesis.

        In contrast, we have loads of evidence showing that black people, particularly black men, get killed by police all the time, whether they are committing crimes or not and whether they are armed or not.  

        So putting aside any other problems your diary has (and others have addressed those), I'd say it's an example of what we lawyers would call a "failure of proof."  You make an assertion, but you point to no factual record to support it.  Given that you have what appear to be rather extensive academic credentials, this lack of proof is all the more striking.  You don't seem to be some rookie with no education or experience as to how argumentation works.  

        Just my two cents.

        "Ça c'est une chanson que j'aurais vraiment aimé ne pas avoir écrite." -- Barbara

        by FogCityJohn on Sun Aug 31, 2014 at 06:23:06 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  WHY are you arguing about this? BOTH issues are... (9+ / 0-)

    WHY are you arguing about this?

    BOTH issues are HUGE problems!!!!

    Can't we just agree on that and call it a day?

  •  Beginning in the 1600s, the purpose of policing (12+ / 0-)

    ...was to enforce discriminatory racially-based laws.  The culture of the police is so intertwined with defense of racist institutions that it cannot be separated.

    That said, there is a police problem of long-standing that has intensified with the transition from Nixonian law and order to Giuliani's zero tolerance and the militarization of the police since 9/11.

    And that problem falls disproportionately on black people and immigrants.

    Fogging the issue does erase the fundamental basis of police misconduct in its function in suppressing attempts to end racial discrimination.

    It's time to undo the whole rotten interconnected mess, contrarian argumentation to the side.

    50 states, 210 media market, 435 Congressional Districts, 3080 counties, 192,480 precincts

    by TarheelDem on Sun Aug 31, 2014 at 11:12:51 AM PDT

  •  We had a recent Diary (27+ / 0-)

    that argued that the problem was not race, but money.

    This Diary is equally wrong, and I'm sorry if you find that offensive.

    The fact is that many of the core issues faced by America today start, end and have a middle comprised of little more than racism.

    America was founded on Racism. The freakin' constitution embodied racism in it's core principles, and many Americans have never moved beyond the feeling that white skin contains superior humans than brown or black skin.

    Get over yourself and your attempts to explain away racism, and get out there and do something about ending it.

    I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
    but I fear we will remain Democrats.

    Who is twigg?

    by twigg on Sun Aug 31, 2014 at 11:13:57 AM PDT

  •  Sadly, (5+ / 0-)

    I have had to tell my brother I'm no longer going to debate police shootings with him.  It's pointless.  He wants to beat his drum, and that's his right.  But I also have a right to not endlessly defend my positions to one who had a point of view cast in concrete.  

    "The light which puts out our sight is darkness to us." Thoreau

    by NancyWH on Sun Aug 31, 2014 at 11:14:15 AM PDT

  •  You "Shoot Yourself" In the Foot With Such a Stark (13+ / 0-)

    denial of race.

    Look, I'm one who's more than most here, repeatedly posted about the identicality of the mass police response in Ferguson with my own personal experience --on a far larger scale by the way-- in Vietnam era white dominated protest in Ohio, and more recent well known events focused on white protesters including WTA, Occupy.

    But it's a world away from that incontestable point to say that the problem "is not" racism.

    For example, from Occupy back to the Vietnam era rioting, we don't see in white and middle class poplations the thoughtless casual assassination of lone white individuals that we saw with Powell, and the possibly near-casual shooting of Brown.

    There is no productive purpose for you to make this argument this starkly, it only triggers divisions and resentment in people we badly need to be building into allies.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Sun Aug 31, 2014 at 11:17:42 AM PDT

  •  So Charlie, do you have one news item that tells (9+ / 0-)

    of a black, gun-toting American committing any infraction whatever (and let's include not committing an infraction at all, just openly carrying a gun) who was confronted by a cop and allowed to argue whatever point the officer was making without being assaulted?  Just one story to stand up against the one in the diary you mention, as well as the dozens of criminally threatening white guys drawing beads on federal agents for crissake, in the Bundy escapades; one story of a black guy brandishing a gun, confronted by a cop for whatever reason, bogus or legitimate, who was able to walk peacefully away.  Just one.

    If not, your point is utter bullshit.

    "Well, yeah, the Constitution is worth it if you succeed." - Nancy Pelosi, 6/30/07 // "Succeed?" At what?

    by nailbender on Sun Aug 31, 2014 at 11:18:39 AM PDT

  •  I disagree with your contention (14+ / 0-)

    and here is why --

    Now, I realize that this is incarceration rates, but stay with me. 4,347 per 100,000 black men in 2010 were incarcerated at least once in 2010. Compare that same number with the white incarceration rate -- just 678 of 100,000 in 2010. Now, it stands to reason that one of a few things is happening here -- first of all, its obvious to me by inference that because there are so many more black men who are locked up, and all people who are locked up must come across a police officers at least once; black men must come across police officers far more often than white men do, simply because there are many more black men locked up than white men.

    If you accept that black men are incarcerated more, therefore they tend to come across police more, you must also accept that THEY are in greater danger of the militarization of police forces, simply because they come across police much, much more than the average white man. Of course white people have to deal with the militarization and hardening of police departments, but I would argue that because black men have to deal with police much, much more (even though drug use and crime rates are roughly the same across all races) it stands to reason that there is a racial component to the militarization of police. Its all there, if you work backward from the incarceration rate.

    •  and I have no idea why that (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Denise Oliver Velez, Yasuragi

      graph is so small. It just show incarceration rates by race from 1960-2010

    •  oh the other things happening (4+ / 0-)

      I think part of that number is also the ease with which whites can navigate through the justice system, some of it speaks to an inherent economic inequality between whites and blacks (white people have more money, therefore can afford a good lawyer, fight charges, win acquittals. Black people have less money, are more often indigent, therefore often lack the most vigorous defense), etc etc. There are more explanations for that number.

      But at least some of that number is an inherent racial bias in policing itself.

      •  Excuse my butting in (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        martini, wu ming, Anne was here

        but I think what's missing here is the other half of Charlie's equation. If I grok his point, he's saying that racism isn't the cause of the disproportionate situation, it's the effect of a violence dominated police culture.

        Obviously the result of what's wrong with police culture is racist. That reflects the unfortunate but obvious fact that many/most police are racists. And many/most judges are racists. And there's probably a lot of other racists involved at all levels of the 'system'.

        Cause and Effect. No matter how racist you are, if you don't believe you have the legal right or sanctioned power to bash and/or kill people at will, you would not bash and/or kill people - any color - at will. The choice of who to bash and/or kill reflects personal, group and institutional biases - racism - of course. The authority to bash and/or kill may not be specifically racist, and this can be evidenced by the fact that police bash and/or kill other people too.

        So what needs to be done (if I am understanding Charlie correctly) is to remove the authority to bash and/or kill at will. Racist cops will still target blacks with the authority they do have, but maybe they won't bash and/or kill them so often.

        Just my take. Right or wrong, I'm not sure anything very helpful could be done about racist cops except trying to screen them out before they ever get in. That looks to be a much longer range goal than just reining in the violence.

        There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves. - Will Rogers

        by Joieau on Sun Aug 31, 2014 at 02:13:37 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Again and again and again (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      martini

      I stated quite clearly that there is a DISPROPORTIONATE IMPACT on racial minorities.

      I do not deny it - but because I am not pandering to a point of view that says it is "just racism" people don't actually READ what I said.

      I said that the underlying cause of the misuse of force - is the normalization of that misuse as standard practice in the national police culture.

      That is what causes the police to - and to get away with - shoot in this manner.

      The racial aspect is ON TOP OF that - causing a disproportionate distribution of victims in certain demographics.

      But it is not what is CAUSING the shooting problem.  And so will not be the source of its being solved.

  •  It's not just a police problem (5+ / 0-)

    What we have is the intersection of multiple problems.

    There is a systemic problem within the police culture in the US (and in saying this I don't men to imply that there are not similar problems in some other countries). Police no longer see themselves as the public servants they are. Instead they see themselves as the master, but they know within their hearts that they are not and this in turn breeds anger and resentment.

    There is systemic racism in this country, which has been present since the very founding (and before). This has perpetuated the social and economic marginalization of african american, hispanics, asians, native americans, etc. Perhaps not equally, but all to some degree.

    Then we have the social stratification, sexism, ageism, etc

    I Think of all these as overlapping circles in a venn diagram with the first two items creating the largest overlap. The more overlaps in any given encounter, the worse the end result is likely to be.

    Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them - Thomas Jefferson 30 July, 1816

    by Roiling Snake Ball on Sun Aug 31, 2014 at 11:23:07 AM PDT

  •  I disagree. If the dead are disproportionately (10+ / 0-)

    Black then there is likely a Racist component.

    Think about it.

    You might want to walk this one back.

  •  sigh (15+ / 0-)

    This isn't complicated.  It sucks to be poor, it sucks more to to be poor and black, it sucks even more to be poor, black and female.

    This isn't complicated. Which begs the question how, and why, you are unable to understand?

    "Empty vessels make the loudest sound, they have the least wit and are the greatest blabbers" Plato

    by Empty Vessel on Sun Aug 31, 2014 at 11:24:38 AM PDT

  •  So Charlie, do you have one news item that tells (7+ / 0-)

    of a black, gun-toting American committing any infraction whatever (and let's include not committing an infraction at all, just openly carrying a gun) who was confronted by a cop and allowed to argue whatever point the officer was making without being assaulted?  Just one story to stand up against the one in the diary you mention, as well as the dozens of criminally threatening white guys drawing beads on federal agents for crissake, in the Bundy escapades; one story of a black guy brandishing a gun, confronted by a cop for whatever reason, bogus or legitimate, who was able to walk peacefully away.  Just one.

    If not, your point is utter bullshit.

    "Well, yeah, the Constitution is worth it if you succeed." - Nancy Pelosi, 6/30/07 // "Succeed?" At what?

    by nailbender on Sun Aug 31, 2014 at 11:25:48 AM PDT

  •  Oh for crying out loud (8+ / 0-)

    Your butthurt over this is pathetic.

    Two hundred fifty years of slavery. Ninety years of Jim Crow. Sixty years of separate but equal. Thirty-five years of racist housing policy. Until we reckon with our compounding moral debts, America will never be whole. - Ta-Nehisi Coates

    by moviemeister76 on Sun Aug 31, 2014 at 11:29:54 AM PDT

  •  Race isn't the only issue (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    postmodernista, SoCalSal, martini

    But, it is one of the biggest issues. Police overreach has quite a lot to do with racism, though its application can and does effect people of all races.

  •  I agree with the diarist's basic premise. (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Charlie Grapski, Joieau, martini, SoCalSal

    The essential problem here is about police abusing their authority.

    It isn't that racism isn't a problem here -- it's that racism is a different problem. The lower social status of african americans makes them easier targets, and racism makes them more appealing targets, for police who are out of control.

    Ultimately, to insist that racism is the primary problem is to reject Niemoller's "When they came for ..." formulation. As forces of authority shift into more and more abusive modes of operation, they will start with the minority groups who are least likely to arouse sympathy as victims.

    My (unprovable) claim is that even without racism, our police forces would be getting nastier and nastier, because that is happening for reasons unrelated to race. African-Americans (and other vulnerable minorities) are in this instance the canaries in the coal mine -- witnessing how they are treated should be the warning to all the rest of us.

    Along the same lines, I'm going to guess that women are much more likely than men to be sexually exploited by a cop. The problem in such instances is not, in my opinion, that cops are sexist. The problem is that cops feel entitled to use their power and authority to get what they want from somebody else. Again: The abuse of women is the canary in the coal mine. Even if we miraculously transformed every male cop in the country into a feminist, so that he simply would not want sexual activity with any woman who was not enthusiastic, the problem of cops feeling entitled to use their power and authority to get what they want from somebody else would remain, and it would grow and worsen and rot and corrupt as the decades roll along.

    Moreover, to the extent that we make it a question of race, we (sadly) lose support from the sorts of people who, like Nieboller's first-person narrator, aren't concerned because they figure "this only happens to black people, and hey, they probably deserve it anyway, so what's the problem". Even on dKos there are damned fools who aren't worried about NSA overreach because, hey, whatevs -- the NSA isn't ever going to be interested in them, and if the NSA ever got interested, they wouldn't find anything of concern.

    The more successful you are at persuading the general populace that the primary issue here is that white cops are violent to black men, the less successful you are going to be at challenging it and stopping it.

    To put the torture behind us is, inevitably, to put it in front of us.

    by UntimelyRippd on Sun Aug 31, 2014 at 11:49:57 AM PDT

    •  Another way of looking at it is this: (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Joieau, martini

      If you assert that this is a race problem, then you are asserting that as a white male, I need have no fear of randomly attracting the attention of the police -- that should it happen, I can confidently expect to walk away without significant consequence.

      Is that an assertion that anyone on this website would actually endorse?

      To put the torture behind us is, inevitably, to put it in front of us.

      by UntimelyRippd on Sun Aug 31, 2014 at 11:53:15 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  That's not quite correct (10+ / 0-)

        No one's arguing white people shouldn't fear the police. What many of us are arguing is that white people don't live in fear of being killed by the police.

        Two hundred fifty years of slavery. Ninety years of Jim Crow. Sixty years of separate but equal. Thirty-five years of racist housing policy. Until we reckon with our compounding moral debts, America will never be whole. - Ta-Nehisi Coates

        by moviemeister76 on Sun Aug 31, 2014 at 11:56:13 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  And what I'm arguing is that SOME white (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Gooserock, Joieau, martini

          people damned well ought to "live" in fear of being killed by the police, that most of the rest ought to be seriously considering the possibility any time they find themselves engaged by the police, and that eventually, almost all white people will live in fear of being killed by the police -- because the problem isn't that the police hate black people, the problem is that the police are authoritarian thugs.

          To put the torture behind us is, inevitably, to put it in front of us.

          by UntimelyRippd on Sun Aug 31, 2014 at 12:04:18 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I disagree (5+ / 0-)

            White parents aren't giving their children The Talk the way black parents have been for decades because it's not necessary. Because cops go out of their way not to shoot white people, even when those white people are armed. And white parents will never give that talk. Because the day when it becomes clear that that kind of talk might be necessary, reform will come.

            Two hundred fifty years of slavery. Ninety years of Jim Crow. Sixty years of separate but equal. Thirty-five years of racist housing policy. Until we reckon with our compounding moral debts, America will never be whole. - Ta-Nehisi Coates

            by moviemeister76 on Sun Aug 31, 2014 at 12:10:15 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  There are white parents on this blog who have (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              martini, MarkC

              testified that they have given that talk to their children.

              Your faith that "reform will come" is presumptuous.

              To put the torture behind us is, inevitably, to put it in front of us.

              by UntimelyRippd on Sun Aug 31, 2014 at 12:13:51 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  There are always exceptions to the rule (4+ / 0-)

                If I had any kids I would actually give a similar talk because I really don't trust the police. However, I would not be giving the talk out of fear that any white child I had might be killed by the police. It would just be a fear that that child might run into some other kind of trouble with the police.

                And I've never met a black parent who did not give that talk to their child.

                Two hundred fifty years of slavery. Ninety years of Jim Crow. Sixty years of separate but equal. Thirty-five years of racist housing policy. Until we reckon with our compounding moral debts, America will never be whole. - Ta-Nehisi Coates

                by moviemeister76 on Sun Aug 31, 2014 at 12:17:04 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I will tell you straight up and straight out that (0+ / 0-)

                  if you do not have children, you have only vague suppositions as to what you would or would not fear on their behalf if you did have children -- just as I, as a white parent of white children, have only vague suppositions about the state of mind of a black parent of a black child, or a white parent of a black child, or a black parent of a white child. These are things one cannot know from speculative introspection.

                  Period.

                  To put the torture behind us is, inevitably, to put it in front of us.

                  by UntimelyRippd on Sun Aug 31, 2014 at 12:47:43 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

          •  BUT THEY DON'T! (5+ / 0-)

            We have 40 years in my personal experience of trying to persuade middle class whites that what we saw in the mass response at Ferguson not only could, but repeatedly has happened to whites, to no avail.

            I've lived through police mass action far larger than Ferguson, against whites, and it had no impact on whites' ability to see police as any kind of threat to them even right there in the surrounding communities let alone nationally. You would have to have nationwide martial law and curfews, a literal police state, before that happens.

            But if you approach the issue via the obvious injustices it has connected with race, you give the white majority a problem it can diagnose and address as a type of aberration they can imagine correcting, and people are willing to tackle even difficult problems when they can imagine succeeding, and don't need to abandon their entire worldview.

            ANd incidentally virtually every change that would bring justice to Blacks and the poor would eliminate the threat to whites as well.

            We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

            by Gooserock on Sun Aug 31, 2014 at 12:20:52 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Then you and I differ on the pragmatics of (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              greenbell, martini

              reform. You believe that there is a large enough social-justice constituency among whites, that the best path to reform is to work on activating that constituency.

              I believe that, even within that constituency, there is too large of a group that in the back of their minds thinks, "well, some blacks behave badly, and they are the ones who get shot by the police."

              Here on dailyKos we have actually seen debates over whether the evidence does or does not support the conclusion that Brown was guilty of a "strong-arm robbery" of some cigars. I don't care whether Brown did or did not steal any cigars! If he did, I don't care whether he did it by stealth, or by grabbing the clerk by the throat and telling him he'd better not dare call the cops, or even whether he had done so by shooting the clerk dead and walking off with the cigars. None of those circumstances would have justified his execution by a police officer. Whence the bizarre idea that it's okay for a cop to initiate a confrontation with a citizen for whatever reason, justified or not, and then at some point shoot the citizen at point-blank range while the citizen is trying to surrender, as long as the citizen was some kind of criminal? That is not how our criminal "justice" system operates, and for a very long list of very good reasons.

              To put the torture behind us is, inevitably, to put it in front of us.

              by UntimelyRippd on Sun Aug 31, 2014 at 12:43:04 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  Here's the gig (7+ / 0-)

        It is, in fact, possible for multiple reasons to have similar and varying importance...contrary to the saying "there can be only one" in most things there are more than one.

        As far as policing goes, fact is that blacks get hassled, beaten and killed by the police way more than white folks.  Poor folks more than rich folks.

        We also know that racism exists outside of policing as well (hiring, education, etc.)  That is, Racism is a pervasive social ill.

        Thus, to consider race a secondary issue to "police culture" seems more than a little bit dumb, and wrong, and offensive.

        "Empty vessels make the loudest sound, they have the least wit and are the greatest blabbers" Plato

        by Empty Vessel on Sun Aug 31, 2014 at 12:00:18 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  No - it is again your inability to read/comprehend (0+ / 0-)

          I state that there IS a disproportionality.  I state that there is a RACIAL basis to that disproportionality.

          Police encounters with minorities is disproportionately high for several problematic reasons - including a systemic problem of racism.

          But that is not the cause of the police believing they are authorized to shoot to kill.

          That is not a racial issue.  It is an underlying police culture issue.

          Ignore it - and you ensure that the problem will persist.  Including in its disproportionate effects among racial minorities.

        •  Race is a secondary issue to police culture (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          martini

          when talking about abusive police behavior because at any given moment any of us could become a victim of police culture, regardless of our race, our sex, or even our wealth.

          I certainly think that racism is one of the top 3 or 4 social problems facing our nation, and on a day to day basis, I think that racism is a more acute and widespread problem than police violence.

          I also think that in the long term, militarization of the police and deference to their gross overreaching of their authority is a bigger and more frightening problem, for people of all races. If that sounds like the sort of thing that I can say only because I'm not black, think of it this way: imagine a future in which everybody, white or black, xtian or muslim, male or female, is treated even worse by the police than black males are treated today. That's what I'm afraid of, and that's why I want the cops reined in.

          To put the torture behind us is, inevitably, to put it in front of us.

          by UntimelyRippd on Sun Aug 31, 2014 at 12:12:17 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  I thought this was (13+ / 0-)

    Labor Day Weekend -- not Nutters on Daily Kos Weekend.  How many of these types of diaries are we going to read??

    I just scanned the comments and must have missed where the diarist is called a racist.  What is pointed out, several times, is that white folks have to stop telling black folks what they are experiencing.

    " My faith in the Constitution is whole; it is complete; it is total." Barbara Jordan, 1974

    by gchaucer2 on Sun Aug 31, 2014 at 12:00:31 PM PDT

    •  I was called a Racial Denialist (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      martini

      Want more specifics than that?

      I don't tell anyone what they have experienced.

      And when you go out - and put your own ass on the line challenging these abuses - and have seen the REAL EFFECT of misuse of police force - FOR YOURSELF - then come back and lecture me one what I know and I experience - let alone what I have studied about the problem more broadly.

  •  Perhaps chuck should (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Yasuragi

    remove his head from his @ss.

    Chuckles, since you don't know, the system we live under is called white supremacy. Look it up.

  •  Your update makes this worthy of HRs. (14+ / 0-)

    I'm not gonna, because it would just feed into your sense of victimhood, but when there are sixty-seven comments and only four recs to the diary, you might consider that we're not the ignorant ones.

    We have read what you wrote.  We don't misunderstand.  You're just wrong.

    And for the love of Mike, STOP SHOUTING.

    "...[Among] which are life, liberty, the enjoyment of the fruit of their own labor, and the pursuit of happiness."

    by Yasuragi on Sun Aug 31, 2014 at 12:04:46 PM PDT

  •  Mr. grapski (5+ / 0-)

    misrepresented a diary he asked to be republished to KosAbility. This one is of the same caliber. It would be a good thing if he found somewhere else to post.

    Anyone who scoffs at happiness needs to take their soul back to the factory and demand a better one. -driftglass

    by postmodernista on Sun Aug 31, 2014 at 12:19:54 PM PDT

  •  Race, poverty and horrifying policies enforced (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    zitherhamster, martini

    by poorly trained police are unquestionably interrelated.  

    This is a "chicken or egg first":  deadly policing because of racism or deadly policing because of other factors including racist officers.

    Lack of training, police attitudes demanding instant obedience (or else), and misconceptions and preconceptions of armed officers that lead to unwarranted use of force are all ugly issues that should be addressed.

    I firmly believe its all of the above with racism at the top as the precipitating element in unwarranted use of force and the disproportionately tragic and needless deaths of young black men.

    There are plenty of examples of ridiculous law enforcement attempts at cover ups and outright lies that have been proven as such, thanks to ubiquitous recording devices and the people that put them to good use.

    Sad to say we're a long way from getting relief.

    "A rising tide lifts all boats," S&P concludes. "But a lifeboat carrying a few, surrounded by many treading water, risks capsizing."

    by Aaa T Tudeattack on Sun Aug 31, 2014 at 12:22:57 PM PDT

  •  Well, I'll dive in. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    martini

    I think the problem is the lack of voter participation.
    Underlying lack of citizen involvement and oversight for decades, passivity, etc.

    This allowed the economic disparity to explode since Reagan.

    It was racism that blinded poor and middle class whites during the Reagan  years when blacks were first discovering the new world order didn't include enough jobs for them to continue rising out of poverty.

    It's like a crack the whip situation where the minorities are out at the end of the line and catch the worst effects.

    We have to crack the whip back in the other direction, that means poor whites and blacks and middle class folks of any color are going to have to join hands and operate together.

    The war on public education is being driven by the religious right. They are also driving the war on women's health. These have worse effects in minority neighborhoods than they do in wealthier districts. poor white districts as well, though.
    They have been specifically antagonizing the race situation for decades, but especially since Obama was elected.
    This is why the gop is the party of the Christian Nationalists, and it's also the party of the 1%.  

    It's possible to make the case that racism in America hasn't changed, and it's also possible to make the case that racism in America has changed, and for both points of view to be reasonably supported by facts.

    If racism still exists in America (obviously it does), then it's reasonable to think that it has changed (everything changes) there are fewer individuals with solid racial attitudes, I believe, for instance. If it's changed then we need to rethink our strategy for dealing with it.

    To say that this problem, in Ferguson,  is just about race, risks the possibility that Ferguson can just hire more black faces and make the problem go away, when we know the increasingly privatized incarceration industry will continue, college tuition will continue to rise out of reach of poorer (esp. black) students, etc.
    There are still not enough jobs, and until there are more opportunities, the status quo will remain in effect.

    The gop base has bought into this idea, that "there's not enough to go around" and that success for blacks would explain the setbacks for middle class and poor whites.  
    For  us to give in to the same framing seems to me to give the victory to the ones pulling the strings.

    We have a race problem in this country. It's like the race problem that we've had always in this country, but it's changed too.
    Even as we admit this racism, it may be that the best strategy going forward to win is to deal with the complexities of the underlying structure that is antagonizing race issues that affect everyone economically.

    You can't make this stuff up.

    by David54 on Sun Aug 31, 2014 at 12:45:48 PM PDT

  •  wow. (and, whoa there, charlie.) eom. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Denise Oliver Velez

    let me take you down, 'cause i'm going to strawberry fields. nothing is real, and nothing to get hung about.-jpgr

    by shesaid on Sun Aug 31, 2014 at 12:51:05 PM PDT

  •  The more that white folk howl that it's not (16+ / 0-)

    about race, the more obvious that is really is a race problem.

  •  OK, so the victims of aggression are more (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    a2nite, martini

    invested in the belief thay they prompted the attack than in bringing the perpetrator to account.
    Why is that?
    Is it because preserving a sense of self-importance is psychologically more important than even getting revenge -- which has proved problematic historically?
    That actually makes sense. The status of one's own psyche is more certain than any compensation society might cough up.

    Should we hold that against the victims? I think not. Authority (that's all of us) which stands silent bears some fault in any abusive situation. Wasting effort on trying to get the victims to admit their innocence accomplishes nothing.
    Converting them into resisters and enforcers of the law seems a logical objective, but their efforts, if undertaken, would be compromised by the desire to get revenge.

    What's the answer? Uninvolved people have to get involved as a matter of principle. Telling the victims it's not about them is not going to go over well. It just happens to be the truth.

    •  Yeah, we need to tell (6+ / 0-)

      black folks--who are beaten by people screaming racial epithets, or who have had crosses burnt on their lawns that--that its not about them or their race.  That should go over swimmingly.  

      Seriously, this is not just stupid, its offensively stupid.

      "Empty vessels make the loudest sound, they have the least wit and are the greatest blabbers" Plato

      by Empty Vessel on Sun Aug 31, 2014 at 01:44:44 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Wait (6+ / 0-)

      Do you realize how ignorant and condescending your comment is?

      Two hundred fifty years of slavery. Ninety years of Jim Crow. Sixty years of separate but equal. Thirty-five years of racist housing policy. Until we reckon with our compounding moral debts, America will never be whole. - Ta-Nehisi Coates

      by moviemeister76 on Sun Aug 31, 2014 at 01:49:25 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I'm inclined to HR for racial denialism: (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Denise Oliver Velez
      Telling the victims it's not about them is not going to go over well. It just happens to be the truth.
      Frankly, anyone who tries to maintain that police violence against black people has nothing to do with the victims is at best a racial denialist.

      I won't HR the comment, though, because for one thing, I generally don't give out doughnuts.  Another reason is that this comment, like almost everything you write, is so opaque, so impenetrable, and so ambiguous that I'm not sure what it's even supposed to mean.  In some ways, it's as if you're just writing complete nonsense.

      So I'm going to leave this steaming pile of horse manure where everyone can read it.  If anybody can tell me WTF it means, I thank you in advance.

      "Ça c'est une chanson que j'aurais vraiment aimé ne pas avoir écrite." -- Barbara

      by FogCityJohn on Sun Aug 31, 2014 at 06:50:58 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I read hannah's comment (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        martini

        much like I read yours directly above hers, John.  She appears to be saying much the same thing, but in a less direct way.  

        She says the [black] victims are innocent; you say racism is our [white] problem (those not innocent).  She says "uninvolved people have to get involved as a matter of principle"; you say "as far as racism goes, we white people "built that."  It's therefore up to us to dismantle it." Both of you are saying, in essence, that the truth is that "it's not about them."   At least, that's how I read that portion of hannah's comment - everything else in her post appears to support that interpretation.  To me, she appears, like you, to be saying any solutions (the "it" to which she referred in 'it's not about them') shouldn't be shouldered by the innocent victims.  Thoughts?

        •  Interesting interpretation (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          martini, Denise Oliver Velez

          Just don't understand why she thinks the victims of racism will be displeased to learn it's not about them.

          Seems inconsistent with your reading, but again, I don't claim to be able to decipher her jibberish.

          "Ça c'est une chanson que j'aurais vraiment aimé ne pas avoir écrite." -- Barbara

          by FogCityJohn on Sun Aug 31, 2014 at 08:22:27 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Not "displeased" so much as (0+ / 0-)

            robbed of dignity, perhaps?  I think that's where the first part of her comment comes into play.  Blacks are invested emotionally, psychologically, physically - their very lives - in every other sense.

            •  She's says they're "invested" in ... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Denise Oliver Velez
              the belief thay they prompted the attack[.]

              In fact, they're more invested in believing this

              than in bringing the perpetrator to account.
              Oh, and she also says black people seem to be interested in preserving a sense of their own self-importance.  So ... acknowledging or talking about racism is an expression of black people's sense of self-importance?

              I don't know about you, but those descriptions don't fit any actual black person I know.  Of course, YMMV.

              "Ça c'est une chanson que j'aurais vraiment aimé ne pas avoir écrite." -- Barbara

              by FogCityJohn on Sun Aug 31, 2014 at 09:30:51 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

  •  Nope, the police are agents of the (8+ / 0-)

    white majority sect especially the 1% who created this pretend country, the USA.  

    The police are agents of authoritarianism & that is an additional problem.

    I especially don't like when someone says it IS NOT a race problem like they're some kind of expert.  It's disrespectful & rude because lack of respect is a big American problem.

    Thanks for whitesplaining.

    I voted Tuesday, May 6, 2014 because it is my right, my responsibility and because my parents moved from Alabama to Ohio to vote. Unfortunately, the republicons want to turn Ohio into Alabama.

    by a2nite on Sun Aug 31, 2014 at 02:03:49 PM PDT

  •  I think you're lost; Freepville is ----> way (4+ / 0-)

    I voted Tuesday, May 6, 2014 because it is my right, my responsibility and because my parents moved from Alabama to Ohio to vote. Unfortunately, the republicons want to turn Ohio into Alabama.

    by a2nite on Sun Aug 31, 2014 at 02:29:57 PM PDT

  •  You need to walk away (7+ / 0-)

    from the computer now, because this is not going to end well for you if you keep posting while in this state of mind.

    And stop thinking that you are the only one that is "RIGHT" here.

    The thing about quotes on the internet is you cannot confirm their validity. ~Abraham Lincoln

    by raboof on Sun Aug 31, 2014 at 02:45:47 PM PDT

  •  FYI, yeah the police have a race problem (4+ / 0-)

    Please see this front page post:

    http://www.dailykos.com/...

    But then you know it all.

    I voted Tuesday, May 6, 2014 because it is my right, my responsibility and because my parents moved from Alabama to Ohio to vote. Unfortunately, the republicons want to turn Ohio into Alabama.

    by a2nite on Sun Aug 31, 2014 at 02:53:31 PM PDT

  •  & this: (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    poco, ranger995, Denise Oliver Velez

    I voted Tuesday, May 6, 2014 because it is my right, my responsibility and because my parents moved from Alabama to Ohio to vote. Unfortunately, the republicons want to turn Ohio into Alabama.

    by a2nite on Sun Aug 31, 2014 at 03:36:58 PM PDT

  •  Charlie, when you calm down. I want you to (7+ / 0-)

    really ponder this. I mean sit down and really think about it. If you are honest in your thoughts and you think about the evidence that is available, then your conclusion will be that you are wrong. This IS a race issue.

    See, I get that OWS was treated poorly by the police. Sure, they were even abusive. But white people can make a choice to go to OWS rallies and get exposed to police brutality or not.

    Black people cannot make that choice. They are born into a police state, and it doesn't matter their status in society. They can be educated, rich, whatever, it doesn't matter to the police or really to many people in this country for that matter. All that matters is the color of their skin. When a police officer faces a black person for any reason, they expect immediate obedience and submission, and will violently react to anything different. Our society very sadly accepts that.

    Jails and prisons are loaded with black men who would not be in jail if they were white. A large part of the reason for this is that police treat black and white people differently.

    Every piece of data that you can gather will reveal that while white people can occasionally be treated poorly by police officers, all black people can expect to be treated poorly every time they interact with the police. This is a horrible injustice in our society.

    "If you don't sin, then Jesus died for nothing!" (on a sign at a Mardi Gras parade in New Orleans)

    by ranger995 on Sun Aug 31, 2014 at 05:34:59 PM PDT

  •  can't it be BOTH a police and a race problem? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Be Skeptical

    I totally agree that there is a huge problem with police brutality, unaccountability, etc. But why does that mean there cannot ALSO be a race problem? Because that is what your diary title seems to imply.

    p.s. I think it's terrible you've been hide rated.

    It is not a correct deduction from the principles of economics that enlightened self-interest always operates in the public interest. —John Maynard Keynes, "The End of Laissez Faire" (1926)

    by Nate Roberts on Mon Sep 01, 2014 at 12:20:33 AM PDT

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